Origin of the Basques

[Angela]

Maybe an interesting fact: From all modern samples I have in my hard disk, only the Basques reached over 70% for matching with Cardial Ware in optical traits. There is no other modern sample that matches Cardial Ware significantly.

Which Basques?

 

[MOESAN]

Which Basques?

the only woman on these pictures has what I qualify "cromagnoid" features, typical enough (IMO! based on metrics) of my vision of the Paleolithical occidental Cro-magnon's . (at least on the bony aspect)
They can be found here and there allover Europe, a bit less rare in some districts, Wales among them). Evidently these features have been more common in a large space in Europe and even farther, and 1) are not by force directly inherited from the westernmost 'croma' 2) not by force linked to an allover 'croma' auDNA drift or not, of course -

 

[Angela]

the only woman on these pictures has what I qualify "cromagnoid" features, typical enough (IMO! based on metrics) of my vision of the Paleolithical occidental Cro-magnon's . (at least on the bony aspect)
They can be found here and there allover Europe, a bit less rare in some districts, Wales among them). Evidently these features have been more common in a large space in Europe and even farther, and 1) are not by force directly inherited from the westernmost 'croma' 2) not by force linked to an allover 'croma' auDNA drift or not, of course -

I agree.

My point in asking the question is that if someone is going to compare "the Basques" to another set of people, isn't that person in fact assuming that "the Basques" are pretty homogeneous in terms of appearance?

Is that in fact true? It doesn't look that way to me. The men in the first two pictures look alike, but what about the last man, or the old man.

If they're not homogeneous, how do you choose the "optical" features that are the "correct" or "pure" Basque features?

 

[MOESAN]

I was not sure of what meaning Doggerland put in its 'optical...'
By the fact, I agree that Basques are not so homogenous physically speaking, and this statement concerns a lot of ethnies.
In fact, Spain Basques show a little more trend towards what has been called 'atlantomediter' or 'robust mediter', even if it covers more a mean than an homozygotic reality for features; but it gives them some look as a whole, compared to other Iberia groups. France Basques are a bit more variated.
My interrigation is: where has Doggerland had the opportunity to gather clues about Cardial people looks? The only light clues I have had say they were heterogenous according to places, with more or less Mesolithic people inputs...

 

[Doggerland]

what is "optical traits"?

SNPs that determine facial and skull morphology, eye color, hair color and structure etc. Anatomical traits may be a better description.

Which Basques?

Dunno, I did not see the people who donated the samples for HGDP, I have to trust science in this situation.

And yes, people vary in populations. But to my experience I never had a person that had strong similarities (Over 70%) with very distinct populations, that is uncommon and only happens with Archaics and Africans, because they have large percentage of wild type SNPs. There can be matching with distinct populations, if they are somehow related.

The most variation in a population is not caused by completely different sets of SNPs for traits but to the fact that in modern European populations many trait SNPs are heterozygotous. That includes the possibility of 3 variations for that SNPs for example AA TT AT. But there are still SNPs in modern populations that are characteristic and not of that kind in most chases. That makes the typical look.
For example Han Chinese do not have much variation/heterozygosity.

Yamnaya and some kinds of Linear Pottery, for example Hungarian Groups where also very heterozygote and because of that they often match with modern people.

 

[MOESAN]

@Doggerland: thanks for answer; I thought it was that but I was not sure.

You wrote:
SNPs that determine facial and skull morphology, eye color, hair color and structure etc. Anatomical traits may be a better description

Personnally, I see a difference between real anatomical traits and a set of SNP's considered of weight..
That said, the convergence of anatomical SNP's between pop's is not without sense. I don't find, based on history and allover anDNA, it would be so surprising some strong convergence between today Basques and Cardial groups (not identity, of course). What I would know is what kind of Cardial groups have been studied on this angle of specific phenotypes SNP's.
Spite their heterogeneity, Cardial groups had surely some specific traits as a mean compared to other Neolithic people, because of their strong Mesolithic people input.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I wonder if E-V13 made it the same way as J2b.

We have to wait for the ancient DNA, much of Italy and parts of the Balkans have not been analyzed. Certainly E-V13 has considerable percentages throughout Italy. Several different explanations are possible, at least for Italy.

 

[Hawk]

We have to wait for the ancient DNA, much of Italy and parts of the Balkans have not been analyzed. Certainly E-V13 has considerable percentages throughout Italy. Several different explanations are possible, at least for Italy.

Right now, it has become certainly quite unpredictable to scope down E-V13 in Italy. There are people who claim it's mostly from Early Middle Age after the collapse of Danubian lime, but somehow i think that scenario is not possible. But, let's see.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Right now, it has become certainly quite unpredictable to scope down E-V13 in Italy. There are people who claim it's mostly from Early Middle Age after the collapse of Danubian lime, but somehow i think that scenario is not possible. But, let's see.

I also do not find it credible that all E-V13 in Italy is due to migration and early medieval movements. All we have to do is wait.