Gaska
Banned
- Messages
- 189
- Reaction score
- 72
- Points
- 0
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b-Df27
- mtDNA haplogroup
- T2b3e
@Angela said-“Honestly, I don't get the big deal here. If the question is whether the downstream R1b lineages came from the east starting around 3000 BC, the answer is clear; yes, they did. Whether R1b lineages related to far distant V88 were present in western Europe earlier is irrelevant”
Of course the question is relevant, in fact it is so relevant that the promoters of the Kurgan theory as it has been lately elaborated (i.e. that R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 brought the IE language to mainland europe thanks to massive migrations with origin in the Yamnaya culture), have been trying for 6 years to find those lineages in the steppes and to date have been unable to do so. Reich, Patterson, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Olalde and their colleagues still do not know where to look for M269/L51 and its descendants. They have found them neither in Khvakynsk, nor in Samara, Dnieper-Donets, Sredni-Stog, Repin, Eneolithic Caucasus, Repin, Afanasievo and Yamnaya. But they have not found it in Poltavka, Potapovka, Catacombs, Sinthasta etc. either. That is to say, at the moment this lineage has NOT been found in any culture of the steppes between 7,000 BC and 2,000 BC. Absolutely nothing and yet they claim that M269/L51/P312 is exclusively responsible for the introduction of steppe ancestry into Western Europe. Really?. All we say is that for a theory or hypothesis to be accepted unanimously by the international scientific community it must be irrefutably proven. Give us a single case of L51 in the steppes and we will accept without problems that they were right, but without proof, the only thing they do is to ask us to accept a dogma of faith and honestly, we no longer live in the 16th century.
Nobody here has talked about R1b-V88, but about R1b-M269. We have ATP3 in Iberia (El Portalón, Atapuerca) which, according to Harvard, is R1b-P297 positive for PF6518-downstream M269. This sample has only been recognized by Harvard in 2021, after having published its work on BB culture in Europe and the genetic history of Iberia. Why? simply because it did not fit in their theory of the arrival of this lineage from the steppes with the BB culture. The existence of M269 in Iberia before 3300 BC simply had to be ignored, in the same way that the anthropological, genetic and archaeological evidence of the existence of small Iberian migrations to the rest of the BB regions at an advanced stage of that culture had to be ignored.
SO yes it is a big deal, because we are talking about the origin of the male lineage carried by 100 million European men, who deserve a more scientific and less simplistic explanation of our history.
The Harvardians' explanations about the origin of R1b-L51 are a bit surreal. You can choose the one you like best
1-According to David Anthony, the reason is that R1b-Z2013 was the elite i.e. the dominant male clan who used the Kurgans as burial sites, while R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 were the lower class of Yamnaya society and were never buried in such burial monuments. A lot of imagination, isn't it? To begin with Yamnaya is overwhelmingly Z2013 and there are members of that lineage buried in poor sites and in rich sites, then if they have not found M417 and L51 it is not because they were poor, but because they are not in the Yamnaya culture.
2-Other relevant Kurganists say that the reason for not finding these lineages is that we are talking about a single M417 and a single L51 that gave rise to all European males belonging to these lineages thanks to a founder effect, and therefore finding them is as difficult as finding a needle in a haystack. Ok, it may be very difficult, but without proof your theory is only a working hypothesis that can be easily disproved, so please keep looking.
3-The third favorite argument is to try to convince everyone that these lineages are in an unsampled group belonging to the western Yamnaya culture. Ok, show us that you are a good scientist and find L51, we will all thank you, so far, this is just another working hypothesis.
Of course the question is relevant, in fact it is so relevant that the promoters of the Kurgan theory as it has been lately elaborated (i.e. that R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 brought the IE language to mainland europe thanks to massive migrations with origin in the Yamnaya culture), have been trying for 6 years to find those lineages in the steppes and to date have been unable to do so. Reich, Patterson, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Olalde and their colleagues still do not know where to look for M269/L51 and its descendants. They have found them neither in Khvakynsk, nor in Samara, Dnieper-Donets, Sredni-Stog, Repin, Eneolithic Caucasus, Repin, Afanasievo and Yamnaya. But they have not found it in Poltavka, Potapovka, Catacombs, Sinthasta etc. either. That is to say, at the moment this lineage has NOT been found in any culture of the steppes between 7,000 BC and 2,000 BC. Absolutely nothing and yet they claim that M269/L51/P312 is exclusively responsible for the introduction of steppe ancestry into Western Europe. Really?. All we say is that for a theory or hypothesis to be accepted unanimously by the international scientific community it must be irrefutably proven. Give us a single case of L51 in the steppes and we will accept without problems that they were right, but without proof, the only thing they do is to ask us to accept a dogma of faith and honestly, we no longer live in the 16th century.
Nobody here has talked about R1b-V88, but about R1b-M269. We have ATP3 in Iberia (El Portalón, Atapuerca) which, according to Harvard, is R1b-P297 positive for PF6518-downstream M269. This sample has only been recognized by Harvard in 2021, after having published its work on BB culture in Europe and the genetic history of Iberia. Why? simply because it did not fit in their theory of the arrival of this lineage from the steppes with the BB culture. The existence of M269 in Iberia before 3300 BC simply had to be ignored, in the same way that the anthropological, genetic and archaeological evidence of the existence of small Iberian migrations to the rest of the BB regions at an advanced stage of that culture had to be ignored.
SO yes it is a big deal, because we are talking about the origin of the male lineage carried by 100 million European men, who deserve a more scientific and less simplistic explanation of our history.
The Harvardians' explanations about the origin of R1b-L51 are a bit surreal. You can choose the one you like best
1-According to David Anthony, the reason is that R1b-Z2013 was the elite i.e. the dominant male clan who used the Kurgans as burial sites, while R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 were the lower class of Yamnaya society and were never buried in such burial monuments. A lot of imagination, isn't it? To begin with Yamnaya is overwhelmingly Z2013 and there are members of that lineage buried in poor sites and in rich sites, then if they have not found M417 and L51 it is not because they were poor, but because they are not in the Yamnaya culture.
2-Other relevant Kurganists say that the reason for not finding these lineages is that we are talking about a single M417 and a single L51 that gave rise to all European males belonging to these lineages thanks to a founder effect, and therefore finding them is as difficult as finding a needle in a haystack. Ok, it may be very difficult, but without proof your theory is only a working hypothesis that can be easily disproved, so please keep looking.
3-The third favorite argument is to try to convince everyone that these lineages are in an unsampled group belonging to the western Yamnaya culture. Ok, show us that you are a good scientist and find L51, we will all thank you, so far, this is just another working hypothesis.