North African E-v13 subclade ?

[Sophax]

Hi,

I've been analysing my raw datas with Morlay predictor and it says: E-L250 aka E1b1b1a1b1a7
But ISOGG says E-L250 is E1b1b1a1b1a4 and now related to E-L143.
From there, I found that it was related to E-V13 (wikipedia E-V68 page)
Then I checked the geneanet predictor, it gave me: E-L618. I didn't found much informations about this.
First of all: am I really related to E-V13 ?
My fatherline is from Aures mountains in Algeria, so I wrote this personal route:
E-M78 (egypt)
E-L618 (sardinian or croatian or iberian)
E-V13 (balkan)
E-L250 (back to north africa - the mechtoid or iberomaurisian man, which have been tested positive to E-L650 (wikipedia mechta-afalou page)

May this be one of the two "native berber" haplogroup along with E-M81 who never left african continent ? Any clues would be much appriciated.
Thanks

[Musashi]

Hello, I think you should have to test your DNA at a deeper level. However, E-V13 has nothing to do with M81. V13 is 8.000 years old and arose in Europe, where his ancestor, L618, arrived centuries before, coming from Anatolia/middle East. V13 shares a common ancestor with M81, M35, which is 34.000 years old... Iberimarusians were no more living when V13 arose in Europe... So, if you really belong to a V13 clade, your ancestors went to North Africa in a much more recent period, probably not before the late european bronze age. Maybe they were romans, or it's possibile they arrived there even after the ancient time. You should have to know exactly what is your branch, to know something more.

[Sophax]

Thanks a lot for your advices, what's the best testing company in your opinion to do that ? Anyway, pretty proud to be part of the E-L618 team !

[Musashi]

Thanks a lot for your advices, what's the best testing company in your opinion to do that ? Anyway, pretty proud to be part of the E-L618 team !

I did the FTDNA big Y test, it is probably the most purchased one, at the moment. I found it really good.

[Riverman]

I did the FTDNA big Y test, it is probably the most purchased one, at the moment. I found it really good.

The FTDNA BigY is the first choice, because you get all you need for your paternal DNA analysis, its easy to grasp what they deliver and they have the biggest data base. I would also suggest you upload your results to YFull once you got them. Chances are indeed very high that you have more recent, so at least historical European paternal ancestors. Most likely candidates are Greek and Roman colonists in classical antiquity, but there are many more options in theory.

Upstream of E-L143:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A2192/

I also looked at E-L143 on FTDNA and its basically a British branch, which would make a Celtic or Germanic origin more likely if being your haplotype. So the exact result could make quite a difference.

[Hawk]

E-V13 is like the dark horse of Y-DNA's in Europe.

A dark horse is a previously less known person or thing that emerges to prominence in a situation, especially in a competition involving multiple rivals, or a contestant that on paper should be unlikely to succeed but yet still might.

They popped out of nowhere in Late Bronze Age.

[Riverman]

E-V13 is like the dark horse of Y-DNA's in Europe.



They popped out of nowhere in Late Bronze Age.

The only non-dark horse patrilineage in modern Europe is R1b und I2, because those two were always strong.
G2 on the other hand was big once, but got pushed down later.
The other major players, R1a, I1, J2 and E-V13 were all spread by specific events, after having been, especially I1 and E-V13, pretty low and under the radar for a long time, definitely not playing in the upper league. Interestingly, they seem to have something in common, namely first surviving the steppe expansion, then becoming a dominant lineage within a rather geographically smaller, limited regions in the Bronze Age, with rapid expansions in the LBA-EIA. The reason for this is simple, other lineages profited from it too, just not as much: Such big transitions mix the cards once more, they open up possibilities and threaten the old dominance. Like G2 spread only in the first mode of farming very well, as soon as the secondary Neolithic transition, with a stronger emphasis on organised warfare and animal products started, they began first to shrink, then to disappear. Most of the modern G carriers in Europe also spread with the later metal ages, being no direct survivors from the early Neolithic success story. For E-V13 its the same, just more extreme, because they seem to have been nowhere as dominant, as they became in the Bronze Age for some regions.
The Carpathians are however not exactly nowhere, because this region was mining and metallurgical centre for most of Europe for quite a long time, and absolutely central for the Indoeuropeans, both earlier and later, up until the Iron Age started, which, not by chance, started for a lot of people with Carpathian contacts too, because these people had the expertise. They spread the most, it seems, with the iron metalworking innovations, exactly when the old Bronze production and trade was going down. So these people instead of waiting for their downfall, once Bronze became just a second tier metal product, took the chance to profit from the transition themselves the most. This is evident if looking at the Gava fortresses, which were among the first people of Europe to produce iron weapons en masse.

[Hawk]

The only non-dark horse patrilineage in modern Europe is R1b und I2, because those two were always strong.
G2 on the other hand was big once, but got pushed down later.
The other major players, R1a, I1, J2 and E-V13 were all spread by specific events, after having been, especially I1 and E-V13, pretty low and under the radar for a long time, definitely not playing in the upper league. Interestingly, they seem to have something in common, namely first surviving the steppe expansion, then becoming a dominant lineage within a rather geographically smaller, limited regions in the Bronze Age, with rapid expansions in the LBA-EIA. The reason for this is simple, other lineages profited from it too, just not as much: Such big transitions mix the cards once more, they open up possibilities and threaten the old dominance. Like G2 spread only in the first mode of farming very well, as soon as the secondary Neolithic transition, with a stronger emphasis on organised warfare and animal products started, they began first to shrink, then to disappear. Most of the modern G carriers in Europe also spread with the later metal ages, being no direct survivors from the early Neolithic success story. For E-V13 its the same, just more extreme, because they seem to have been nowhere as dominant, as they became in the Bronze Age for some regions.
The Carpathians are however not exactly nowhere, because this region was mining and metallurgical centre for most of Europe for quite a long time, and absolutely central for the Indoeuropeans, both earlier and later, up until the Iron Age started, which, not by chance, started for a lot of people with Carpathian contacts too, because these people had the expertise. They spread the most, it seems, with the iron metalworking innovations, exactly when the old Bronze production and trade was going down. So these people instead of waiting for their downfall, once Bronze became just a second tier metal product, took the chance to profit from the transition themselves the most. This is evident if looking at the Gava fortresses, which were among the first people of Europe to produce iron weapons en masse.

MBA in and around Carpathians is crucial timeline and then a push into the Balkans from within MBA to LBA but the most coming during LBA. This is how i envision.

I am just not sure how E-V13 came out in this picture, where did it come during MBA Carpathians?

[Riverman]

MBA in and around Carpathians is crucial timeline and then a push into the Balkans from within MBA to LBA but the most coming during LBA. This is how i envision.

I am just not sure how E-V13 came out in this picture, where did it come during MBA Carpathians?

That's largely unresolved, as is the exact genesis of Gáva-Holigrady and Belegiš II-Gava. There was a lot of turmoil in the MBA-LBA phase, before the expansion took place, with a lot of pressure from both the North and the East (Noua and related steppe groups). Otomani, which is a big candidate with some elements of the later main cultures, was pushed South West at that time, seemingly by force, with many of its settlements being burned to the ground. So how much was local continuity, how much can be attributed to the influx of new people, is all up to debate and its exactly in a situation like this where ancient DNA provides the only solution to the problem. Because by ancient DNA and especially patrilineages we can actually reconstruct who was who genetically without a doubt. By looking at the remains, we can't, especially not in such a complex sphere like the Northern Carpathians. I would expect a local continuity from a small group at least related to Otomani in Eastern Slovakia-South Western Poland, but we have to wait and see.
But the Channeled/Fluted Ware horizons are very clearly related to the spread and later presence of E-V13 practically everywhere. There can be little to no doubt left that was the main event. But how the two main formations associated and the horizon as a whole came into existence in the MBA-LBA is still open. Not far South of Slovakia-Northern Romania, that's also quite for certain by now. Even more to the North is more likely than vice versa.

[Hawk]

That's largely unresolved, as is the exact genesis of G�va-Holigrady and Belegi� II-Gava. There was a lot of turmoil in the MBA-LBA phase, before the expansion took place, with a lot of pressure from both the North and the East (Noua and related steppe groups). Otomani, which is a big candidate with some elements of the later main cultures, was pushed South West at that time, seemingly by force, with many of its settlements being burned to the ground. So how much was local continuity, how much can be attributed to the influx of new people, is all up to debate and its exactly in a situation like this where ancient DNA provides the only solution to the problem. Because by ancient DNA and especially patrilineages we can actually reconstruct who was who genetically without a doubt. By looking at the remains, we can't, especially not in such a complex sphere like the Northern Carpathians. I would expect a local continuity from a small group at least related to Otomani in Eastern Slovakia-South Western Poland, but we have to wait and see.
But the Channeled/Fluted Ware horizons are very clearly related to the spread and later presence of E-V13 practically everywhere. There can be little to no doubt left that was the main event. But how the two main formations associated and the horizon as a whole came into existence in the MBA-LBA is still open. Not far South of Slovakia-Northern Romania, that's also quite for certain by now. Even more to the North is more likely than vice versa.

The biggest turmoil in and around Carpathians wasn't Noua and related steppe groups, you can do an investigation on that. It was a sub-group of Tumuli Culture coming from the Alps, a highly specialized metal-workers and nomadic pastoralist warriors.

[Riverman]

The biggest turmoil in and around Carpathians wasn't Noua and related steppe groups, you can do an investigation on that. It was a sub-group of Tumuli Culture coming from the Alps, a highly specialized metal-workers and nomadic pastoralist warriors.

Which subgroup do you mean, which archaeological culture?

[TaktikatEMalet]

E-V13 is like the dark horse of Y-DNA's in Europe.



They popped out of nowhere in Late Bronze Age.

Through anatolia/middle east along with r1b z2103 in the form of what became proto illyrians. V13 was likely more numerous

[Hawk]

Through anatolia/middle east along with r1b z2103 in the form of what became proto illyrians. V13 was likely more numerous

Not possible, neither E-V13 neither R1b-Z2103 had that route, and i think E-V13 didn't have any other companion Y-DNA.

[TaktikatEMalet]

Not possible, neither E-V13 neither R1b-Z2103 had that route, and i think E-V13 didn't have any other companion Y-DNA.

What makes you believe that and what sort of dates are you referring to? You just said v13 popped out of nowhere in europe so how did it manage to form a tribe of pure v13 yet still originate in europe

[Hawk]

What makes you believe that and what sort of dates are you referring to? You just said v13 popped out of nowhere in europe so how did it manage to form a tribe of pure v13 yet still originate in europe

Because it was a very small unimportant group during Early Bronze Age then suddenly during Middle Bronze Age and mostly Late Bronze Age it rose to prominence.

I have several options in my mind.

1. Cetina Culture
2. Hügelgräberkultur Culture
3. Somewhere along the Carpathians

[TaktikatEMalet]

Because it was a very small unimportant group during Early Bronze Age then suddenly during Middle Bronze Age and mostly Late Bronze Age it rose to prominence.
I have several options in my mind.
1. Cetina Culture
2. Hügelgräberkultur Culture
3. Somewhere along the Carpathians

Fair enough but its still hard to believe that in bronze age europe a small pure v13 group could rise to prominence - if they were part of european culture do you suggest they also spoke an indo european language? How did they carry someone elses language whilst being a pure non related line? Also being an E line it definitely came through anatolia into europe - the question is when.

[Hawk]

Fair enough but its still hard to believe that in bronze age europe a small pure v13 group could rise to prominence - if they were part of european culture do you suggest they also spoke an indo european language? How did they carry someone elses language whilst being a pure non related line? Also being an E line it definitely came through anatolia into europe - the question is when.

Early Neolithic times, Cardium Pottery culture despite being dominated by G2a was the only Neolithic Culture of Europe having Natufian/Iberomaurusian-like influences, so E-L618 was probably here that contributed as a group.

Regarding language, they could have been a small and compact group who allied with an Indo-European tribe and interrmaried, their sons could have incline more and more toward their motherside, speaking the language gradually until they became Indo-Europeanized. There could be various scenarios.

[Gilgamesh]

Hello,

This is my terminal subclade on Yfull, TMRCA :3100 years (i am the guy with Algerian flag, my closest "cousins" are Portuguese guys from Azores isles) : E-Y138701*

An other Algerian Guy is under the same terminal subclade on FTDNA haplotree, (this isn't me,i made a WGS (Nebula) + Fransfer to Yfull ) : E-BY4610*

An other Algerian Guy is under E-Z19851, we share a common ancestor at E-Z5017 level (4500 years ago)

E-Z19851

An other Algerian Guy is under under E-V13 n FTDNA haplotree but i dont think that he made a BigY

On Yfull :

You can find also 3 Moroccans Guys E-FT115151

One guy from Libya : E-FT7781

Best Regards,

[kingjohn]

Hello,

This is my terminal subclade on Yfull, TMRCA :3100 years (i am the guy with Algerian flag, my closest "cousins" are Portuguese guys from Azores isles) : E-Y138701*


An other Algerian Guy is under the same terminal subclade on FTDNA haplotree, (this isn't me,i made a WGS (Nebula) + Fransfer to Yfull ) : E-BY4610*

An other Algerian Guy is under E-Z19851, we share a common ancestor at E-Z5017 level (4500 years ago)

E-Z19851

An other Algerian Guy is under under E-V13 n FTDNA haplotree but i dont think that he made a BigY

On Yfull :

You can find also 3 Moroccans Guys E-FT115151

One guy from Libya : E-FT7781

Best Regards,

since e-v13 is a european marker
if i would have to guess
it might have a relation to this :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied-Noir

p.s
afcorse in your case it could be that you are a descendennts of a roman soldier
or some other ancient source

[Hawk]

Yeah, the likelihood is far more to be from historical presence, i am actually surprised that he has relatives in Portugal, i know of some other subclades within Z5018 which have only Western European counterpart, hence why i insist that the ultimate origin of E-V13 must be somewhere in between the Alps and Carpathian Mountains, this region is like a proxy for both Western and Eastern Europe.

So E-V13 spread must be involved when Hügelgräberkultur mixed with Encrusted Pottery Culture in Western Carpathian mountains during Middle Bronze Age.

[don_joe]

Could it be that it came with Vandals or Visigoths to North Africa?

[Gilgamesh]

My Autosomal is half East European (Mom),half North African (Dad), i presume that my Dad if from Mostly North African background, on my Dad side, no known recent European Ancestors (Pied-Noir) or earlier from Ottoman period or Andalusia.
It most likely Roman ,Greek or Binzantin or elder Bronze age heritage, i am E-Y138701*(E-BY4610*) carrier
On Yfull, all my matches are Iberians
On FTDNA haplotree, (E-BY4610) all my matches, an other Algerian is also basal E-Y138701*(E-BY4610*) :

[Gilgamesh]

since e-v13 is a european marker
if i would have to guess
it might have a relation to this :
Pied-Noir
p.s
afcorse in your case it could be that you are a descendennts of a roman soldier
or some other ancient source

My Autosomal is half East European (Mom),half North African (Dad), i presume that my Dad if from Mostly North African background, on my Dad side, no known recent European Ancestors (Pied-Noir) or earlier from Ottoman period or Andalusia.
It most likely Roman ,Greek or Binzantin or elder Bronze age heritage, i am E-Y138701*(E-BY4610*) carrier
On Yfull, all my matches are Iberians
On FTDNA haplotree, (E-BY4610) all my matches are Iberian, an other Algerian is also basal E-Y138701*(E-BY4610*) :

[Gilgamesh]

(e-y138701*)

[Gilgamesh]

Hi,

I've been analysing my raw datas with Morlay predictor and it says: E-L250 aka E1b1b1a1b1a7
But ISOGG says E-L250 is E1b1b1a1b1a4 and now related to E-L143.
From there, I found that it was related to E-V13 (wikipedia E-V68 page)
Then I checked the geneanet predictor, it gave me: E-L618. I didn't found much informations about this.
First of all: am I really related to E-V13 ?
My fatherline is from Aures mountains in Algeria, so I wrote this personal route:
E-M78 (egypt)
E-L618 (sardinian or croatian or iberian)
E-V13 (balkan)
E-L250 (back to north africa - the mechtoid or iberomaurisian man, which have been tested positive to E-L650 (wikipedia mechta-afalou page)

May this be one of the two "native berber" haplogroup along with E-M81 who never left african continent ? Any clues would be much appriciated.
Thanks

Hello,
Yes, its possible that you are E-V13 carrier.
You should upload ''Yseq Clade Finder'' to confirm

PS : i am also Algerian and E-V13 carrier : (E-Y138701*)