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Thread: J-L70 - a much needed update

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

    Part of my reasoning:



    Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.
    I personally doubt it, there are several other J2a branches which fit the Caucasus origin, L70 does not. Most diversity of this clade started in LBA and EIA, so it to be very common and diverse one of the Classic civilizations from the Mediterranean or adjacent region.

    Don’t understand why you keep on posting the same exact charts, its not relevant to this exact discussion.

    The 5% Levantine Farmer dna in Anatolian BA is not the ‘source’ of Levantine in Italians and Greeks, probably accounts for a little bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    I personally doubt it, there are several other J2a branches which fit the Caucasus origin, L70 does not. Most diversity of this clade started in LBA and EIA, so it to be very common and diverse one of the Classic civilizations from the Mediterranean or adjacent region.

    Don’t understand why you keep on posting the same exact charts, its not relevant to this exact discussion.

    The 5% Levantine Farmer dna in Anatolian BA is not the ‘source’ of Levantine in Italians and Greeks, probably accounts for a little bit.
    Excuse me, this is pertinent to the opinion that you had stated :


    Azzurro: "As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho"


    The facts remain the same, so the charts remain the same I guess. You are trying to say it came from Anatolia, so I am point out that it is most likely not the case, and a non-starter.

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    Excuse me again, but Southern Italians, and Greeks are not modeled with Levantine from what I see. Could you please clarify which study proposes this, and how much of it exists?:





    Sarno et al. 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Excuse me, this is pertinent to the opinion that you had stated :


    Azzurro: "As for L70, it is widely expanded, the Greek source if native would likely be a late Bronze Age Anatolian influx. Ultimately based on its spread it can almost be assumed that it existed in and was native to several cultures from the Levant to the Aegean imho"


    The facts remain the same, so the charts remain the same I guess. You are trying to say it came from Anatolia, so I am point out that it is most likely not the case, and a non-starter.
    How is it a non starter? The Anatolian theory covers its spread moving in both directions? There is an entire scientific paper on this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

    J-L70 is equivalent to J-L397

    Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature.”

    This was a good paper overall, provided many NGS samples that made their way to Yfull, Phoenician markers were also discussed in here.

    And it gets deeper too, if you look at the Big Block Tree from ftdna, the three most basal clades are from Jordan, Sicily and Turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    How is it a non starter? The Anatolian theory covers its spread moving in both directions? There is an entire scientific paper on this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5945646/

    J-L70 is equivalent to J-L397

    Finally, we explored the distribution of J2a-L397 and three derived lineages within it. J2a-L397 is tightly associated with a typical DYS445 6-repeat allele. This has been hypothesized as a marker of the Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean55, based on its presence in Greek Anatolia and Provence (France), a region with attested Iron Age Greek contribution. All of our chromosomes in this clade were characterized also by DYS391(9), confirming their Anatolian Greek signature.”

    This was a good paper overall, provided many NGS samples that made their way to Yfull, Phoenician markers were also discussed in here.
    I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:

    That’s more or less what I was suggesting that it spread from Anatolia to Greece, so no disagreement there. There is no indication of it coming from the Caucasus it is out of the range for what is typical or suggestive of Caucasian J2a branches, the 6000-4400 ybp range on Yfull. And so far the J2a in the Caucasus has been mostly under J2a-M67, J2a-Z6048 and J2b-L283. The spread of L70 is going to be MBA at the earliest, way pasted all the Neolithic your suggesting. Ugarit and Assyria were on the border of the Hittite Empires, the former even established trading colonies there. Even if we have 3 distinct founder affects in Greece, Turkey and the Levant, it doesn’t really change anything.

    J-L70 spread mostly during the Classical era, and I don't know if you read OP's post where he listed its frequency per country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Excuse me again, but Southern Italians, and Greeks are not modeled with Levantine from what I see. Could you please clarify which study proposes this, and how much of it exists?:





    Sarno et al. 2021
    We have different sets of facts what do you want me to tell you.

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    You have a different set of facts from Sarno et al. 2021?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You have a different set of facts from Sarno et al. 2021?
    For me Levantine in Italians and Greece is not negotiable, you can post whatever you want, there are other studies which do in fact show you need Natufian to model. The Uniparental evidence is strong plus amateur modelling. G25 is a professional tool, and it shows exactly what I am referring too.

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    Anyways this talk is about J-L70, we should stick to Y dna for this to be productive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    For me Levantine in Italians and Greece is not negotiable, you can post whatever you want, there are other studies which do in fact show you need Natufian to model. The Uniparental evidence is strong plus amateur modelling. G25 is a professional tool, and it shows exactly what I am referring too.
    Here we go again with the same old. No thanks, I'll just stick with the academic modelling. Let's just keep it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here we go again with the same old. No thanks, I'll just stick with the academic modelling. Let's just keep it at that.
    This is about a Y lineage not which academic tools are the most accurate, your the one who always posts charts and the same one, surprised you didn’t post the Moots Neolithic Italy one.

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    You should consider your manners, you're skating on thin ice.

    You never posted a study to back your claims on the modeling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You should consider your manners, you're skating on thin ice.

    You never posted a study to back your claims on the modeling.
    Luckily I can skate haha, I did before with L70.

    I like that name for the infraction, back handed insult, I have to admit that is clever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it ultimately came from the Caucasus region, into Anatolian, not the Levant into Anatolia. If so, it probably came by way of the Bronze Age pulse of Iran_N-like ancestry.

    Part of my reasoning:

    Only about 5% of LBA Anatolian autosomal DNA is attributed to Levantine Farmers, while over 1/3rd is attributed to Iran/Caucasus.
    I don't understand the relevance of autosomal DNA here. This is why I find your argument flawed:

    There are a handful of Greek J-L70 lines identified currently. For this, let's assume they all arrived in Greece via an Anatolia route (I don't believe all the Greek L70 necessarily passed through Anatolia). After leaving the Levant for Anatolia (some time between 1600 BCE and 1300 BCE), these men would ultimately assimilate amongst the Anatolians, so that by the time they would have arrived in Greece during the LBA, they would be entirely LBA Anatolian in their autosomal ancestry, but their Y's would still be J-L70. It doesn't stop there, they would have continued mixing in Greece, ultimately becoming autosomally modern Greek today, with their lines remaining J-L70. Obviously when their ancestors would have arrived from the Levant, it is unlikely that they would remain Levantine - point being people are bound to mix and mingle, with the "original" autosomal ancestry dying out. [An exception would be the Jewish populations, who have always retained a large proportion of "original" ancestry]

    Additionally, by the time J-L70 men from the Levant arrived in Anatolia, they would not have been 100% Levantine farmer. They would have ancestry from several sources, being Natufian, Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Farmer, CHG, even some Steppe. So one can easily say some of the non-Levantine Farmer ancestry in BA Anatolians could have been from them. But ultimately I have no interest in debating on whether Italians and Greeks have Levantine ancestry (although given the presence of J-L70 among them - not to mention other Levantine uniparentals in these regions, we can basically confirm they had Levantine ancestors at some point).

    It is not clear on what basis you think J-L70 came from the Caucasus - is it just due to autosomal ancestry? In which case, you'd make a stronger argument by saying it just originated in Anatolia.

    You might say that the first point I raised can easily be flipped around, with Caucasian men arriving in the Levant, assimilating, and being responsible for the J-L70 in the Levant. But we can dismiss this for several reasons (which doubles as evidence J-L70 never came from the Caucasus):
    1) J-L70 is a rare clade in the Caucasus, except amongst Jews (Mizrahi - Juhurim) and Armenians, however Herrera et al, (2011) concluded that most of the paternal lineages studied amongst Armenians were introduced from the Levant. In this specific paper, they found J-M318 in 5% of Armenians from Lake Van - J-M318 is Jewish in origin, reinforcing that at least some of Armenian J-L70 is Levantine. Several other Armenian lineages fall under J-Z40772, which shares a common ancestor will several Jewish branches at 2700 ybp, and with a large Jewish branch at 2900 ybp, reinforcing once again a Levantine origin. We also need to remember that the Caucasus is a more heavily tested region, particularly than the Levant and Anatolia.
    2) Considering the greater number of Caucasian men tested, we find no Basal branches of J-L70 amongst them
    3) Considering the greater number of Caucasian men tested, we don't find any significant diversity of J-L70 branches amongst them
    4) J-L70's main growth period ends abruptly with the Late Bronze Age collapse, solidifying J-L70 being heavily nested within the Eastern Mediterranean - I don't suppose the Sea People's invaded the Caucasus as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think it was likely spread to Greece via Anatolia, originating from the Caucasus region. The paternal lineage could have been spread also to the Levant from Anatolia, rather than the other way around. We can see by looking at different time periods that there was an Anatolian/Iran_N intrusion into the levant. Just look at Levant_N vs Levant_BA:
    Having dismissed coming from the Caucasus, the next thing to address is spreading from Anatolia. While more likely than the Caucasus, there still is not convincing evidence for this. J-L70 is not a Neolithic marker, and could not have spread via Neolithic movements. J-Z387 is a different story, with it likely arriving in the Levant via Late Neolithic Mesopotamians (with the ancestor, J-L24 and J-L25 originating in Iran). I did address in my first post why it's not really possible for J-L70 to have spread from Anatolia, with one set of branches going to Greece, while another went to the Levant. The phylogeny simply tells a different story. It's not like we see a clear cluster of Greek branches, and then a clear cluster of Levantine branches - all of J-L70's branches are mixed. This suggests J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region before spreading all over. Additionally, we find Jewish branches throughout J-L70, whereas we would need Jewish branches in just one neck of the woods for a spread from Anatolia to work. The presence of Jewish branches throughout the phylogeny strongly supports a spread from the Levant, especially since Jews tended to remain insular.

    I'll just repost why a Levantine origin for J-L70 is most likely, and has the greatest evidence:

    "A Levantine origin for J-L70 makes the most sense given the great branch diversity, higher frequencies than other regions, and presence of several layers of Basal branches (J-L70* in Jordan, J-FT340863 in an Sinai Egyptian and Palestinian, J-Z387* in several Sephardic Jews, and two different J-FGC35503* branches in Lebanon). Should J-L70 not originate in the Levant, this is all very coincidental. The nail on the hammer for a Levantine origin for J-L70 are the
    15 distinct, distant Jewish branches. No similarly aged clade has as many distinct Jewish lineages - save for perhaps J-Y2919, but that's 600 years older."

    So pretty much, this is the likely migration path we're dealing with: J-L25 (Iran) >...> J-Z387 (Mesopotamia) > J-L70 (Levant)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Have tried using Morley to see if any snps are called? I am not sure if 23&me tests any downstream snps of L70, I know the Old Nat Geo used to test. All depends on how much more information you want to know on this lineage, I would give Morley a try or upload the kit to Ftdna.
    Unfortunately, the relative who tested for L70 was not interested in further Y DNA analysis, only autosomal DNA and genealogical matches. I think Y DNA is very informative as far as older relationships. I was unable to convince him but hope he changes his mind. I will just have to make inferences from other Greece results, as to which L70 branch we might be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Unfortunately, the relative who tested for L70 was not interested in further Y DNA analysis, only autosomal DNA and genealogical matches. I think Y DNA is very informative as far as older relationships. I was unable to convince him but hope he changes his mind. I will just have to make inferences from other Greece results, as to which L70 branch we might be.
    Hope he changes his mind, I don't know if you saw the L70 thread on AG, several members are posting there, including me and Supreme. Does your relative have any other J-L70 matches? Perhaps one these cousins could have tested further on ftdna and the information is already available!

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    How do you explain it existing in places that don't fit into that scenario, as Brick pointed out?

    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    On Y-full in addition to Italians and Greeks, among the J-L70 there are also English, Irish, Scottish, Polish, Bulgarian, Swiss-German, Portuguese, Spanish, German, Albanian, Austrian, Ukrainian, Swedish, Belgian, Dutch, French, Lithuanian, Belorussian, Czech users. Actually, the area of its distribution in Europe is wider than the Roman Empire, I have doubts all of J-L70 can be attributed to the Roman imperial era. Since many areas of Europe are not yet heavily sampled, it is possible that it is a bit more widespread in Europe than we think. A Viking (VK42) from Sweden is also J-L70.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    Indeed, J-L70 is found throughout Western Eurasia. One of the noticeable things we see is that there are Near Easterners, Mediterranean, and non-Mediterranean Europeans at virtually all levels of the phylogeny. This suggests that J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region, before spreading. The majority of J-L70 in Eastern Europe is Ashkenazi Jewish (since Ashkenazim are a heavily tested population). However, I'm pretty confident that most of Europe's J-L70 would have arrived during the Roman Period. I'm not sure how else a young, widespread MENA clade would spread to Europe otherwise.

    The J-L70 Viking, from the supplementary data of the paper, was around ~20% Southern European. I think it would be reasonable to assume his line arrived from the south.
    NM, I see your response.

    You can't be confident about that, because there was a pulse of Iran-like ancestry in the EBA. This makes me assume that it doesn't necessarily have to do with the levant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    How do you explain it existing in places that don't fit into that scenario, as Brick pointed out?
    Roman Expansion this is an easy one, we already have evidence for this

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY242/

    The Roman sample is the same age as the date of the clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Roman Expansion this is an easy one, we already have evidence for this

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY242/

    The Roman sample is the same age as the date of the clade.
    See above post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    See above post.
    Wait for Supreme to answer on this one, I responded to your quotation of Brick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    NM, I see your response.

    You can't be confident about that, because there was a pulse of Iran-like ancestry in the EBA. This makes me assume that it doesn't necessarily have to do with the levant.
    J-L70 is MBA, not EBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    How do you explain it existing in places that don't fit into that scenario, as Brick pointed out?
    I don't think any of these regions are not accounted for. I would imagine that the Syrian Auxiliaries were the primary force. Anatolian Auxiliaries could easily have spread some too. Add on the Jewish Diaspora, and consider the effect of the Roman Empire on people being able to move around, and mercantilism, and we can account for it's spread throughout Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    J-L70 is MBA
    There's a possibility the migration from the east was continuing into that time. EBA is speculated as the earliest possible time for the ramp-up. There has been a slow trickle of CHG/IN at least from the Neolithic.

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