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Thread: J-L70 - a much needed update

  1. #76
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
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    HV1b2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    There's a possibility the migration from the east was continuing into that time. EBA is speculated as the earliest possible time.
    J-L70's TMRCA is 1800 BCE, which is in the Middle Bronze Age. The main diversification of branches was between 1400 BCE and 1100 BCE. I don't understand the connection you're making.

  2. #77
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    Hope he changes his mind, I don't know if you saw the L70 thread on AG, several members are posting there, including me and Supreme. Does your relative have any other J-L70 matches? Perhaps one these cousins could have tested further on ftdna and the information is already available!
    Thank you, that’s a good idea, to check other blogs in hopes someone posted results. FTDNA has an L24 project with public results that I checked.

  3. #78
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Thank you, that’s a good idea, to check other blogs in hopes someone posted results. FTDNA has an L24 project with public results that I checked.
    Azzurro says if you need to contact him, you can do so on Anthrogenica.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    J-L70's TMRCA is 1800 BCE, which is in the Middle Bronze Age. The main diversification of branches was between 1400 BCE and 1100 BCE. I don't understand the connection you're making.
    What is the connection you are making, that Syrian Auxiliary are responsible for the majority of J-L70 in all of Europe? Even places outside of the Roman Empire?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What is the connection you are making, that Syrian Auxiliary are responsible for the majority of J-L70 in all of Europe? Even places outside of the Roman Empire?
    Within the Empire. Many of the regions where we notice greater concentrations, I've noticed these units wound up.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my understanding, each Auxiliary unit had several thousand men, giving ample opportunity for many L70 men amongst them. This is the only explanation I've found that can explain J-L70's phylogeny (ignoring the evidence of J-L70's origin within the Levant).

    J-L70 was likely already present throughout the Levant, Anatolia, and Mesopotamia before Rome.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    Within the Empire. Many of the regions where we notice greater concentrations, I've noticed these units wound up.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my understanding, each Auxiliary unit had several thousand men, giving ample opportunity for many L70 men amongst them. This is the only explanation I've found that can explain J-L70's phylogeny (ignoring the evidence of J-L70's origin within the Levant).
    J-L70 was likely already present throughout the Levant, Anatolia, and Mesopotamia before Rome.
    It is not impossible, but I think it is unlikely that it should account for the entirety of Europe. I only contend that it is within the realm of possibility that it could have spread from a source outside the levant, given that J1 groups likely come from the Caucasus. Moreover, it was in a time when there was significant CHG/IN ancestry coming to the Levant, as well as Anatolia, and Greece. Perhaps it was just more successful in the Levant.

  7. #82
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    My maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s ancestry was Colonial European American Colonial. A few years back, I found out that my maternal grandmother’s father Harold George Walker’s Y DNA haplogroup is J2a4h2 which is known as J-L25. A descendant of his 2nd Great Grandfather Peyton Walker, son of William Walker took the Y DNA test which resulted in finding out that he was J-L25. The haplogroup assignment has been refined, and it is now J-PH3125. There are six haplogroups in the branch before J-PH3125. In exact order, they are J-CTS1192>J-L70>J-Z435>J-CTS3601>J-PF5456>J-FGC54172.



    Both 5th Great Grandpa Peyton Walker and 6th Grandpa William Walker were born in Virginia.



    I am already around 1/8 Ashkenazi Jewish from my maternal grandmother’s mother Ruth Sarah Rosenthal who was a first generation American born to a father from Romania and a mother from Latvia.
    My maternal grandfather's father was the son of Cape Verdean immigrants. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandfather was Puerto Rican. My maternal grandfather's maternal grandmother was the Hawaiian born daughter of Madeiran immigrants, and her paternal grandfather was from the Azores. Therefore, I suspect some Sephardic Jewish on my maternal grandfather's side.

    My African American father was born and raised in New Orleans, and his paternal grandmother had some Acadian ancestry. One of her Acadian ancestors was Abraham Dugas who was suspected by some to be Sephardic Jewish, and his Y DNA haplogroup J-Y25793. His closest match is a Druze man in Lebanon.

  8. #83
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    There are many new L70 samples from Turkey in YFull, with old MRCA’s.

    https://yfull.com/tree/J-L70/

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    There are many new L70 samples from Turkey in YFull, with old MRCA’s.
    Yes, they're all from a WGS study. Nothing too unexpected. The samples themselves appear to be a mixed bag (i.e. Balkan Turks, Anatolian Turks, Armenians, and the very first J-L70 Pontian). Regarding their MRCA's, these are of course subject to change over time - I can easily see them forming clades in the future that will not have such an old TMRCA. Two of these samples are reasonably close to Jewish branches, particularly in J-Y24651.

    One has already formed a clade with a Sephardic Jewish line, with the Turk most likely being a Jewish exit.

    Hopefully we'll get a similar study from the Levant at some point.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    Yes, they're all from a WGS study. Nothing too unexpected. The samples themselves appear to be a mixed bag (i.e. Balkan Turks, Anatolian Turks, Armenians, and the very first J-L70 Pontian). Regarding their MRCA's, these are of course subject to change over time - I can easily see them forming clades in the future that will not have such an old TMRCA. Two of these samples are reasonably close to Jewish branches, particularly in J-Y24651.

    One has already formed a clade with a Sephardic Jewish line, with the Turk most likely being a Jewish exit.

    Hopefully we'll get a similar study from the Levant at some point.
    Good points


    according to Jewish Virtual Library


    Turkey has a Jewish history dating back possibly to the 4th century B.C.E.


    The history of the Jews in Anatolia, however, started many centuries before the migration of Sephardic Jews. Remnants of Jewish settlement from the 4th century B.C.E. have been uncovered in the Aegean region, where Jews lived and traded in the ancient cities of Ephesus, Sardis, Pergamon, and Smyrna (renamed Izmir by the Turks). The historian Josephus Flavius relates that Aristotle "met Jewish people with whom he had an exchange of views during his trip across Asia Minor."


    Second and third century Greek inscriptions tell of a flourishing Jewish community in Smyrna. Ancient synagogue ruins have also been found in Sardis, near Izmir, dating from 220 B.C.E. and traces of other Jewish settlements have been discovered near Bursa, in the southeast and along the Aegean, Mediterranean and Black Sea coasts. A bronze column found in Ankara confirms the rights the Emperor Augustus accorded the Jews of Asia Minor.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    I don't understand the relevance of autosomal DNA here. This is why I find your argument flawed:

    There are a handful of Greek J-L70 lines identified currently. For this, let's assume they all arrived in Greece via an Anatolia route (I don't believe all the Greek L70 necessarily passed through Anatolia). After leaving the Levant for Anatolia (some time between 1600 BCE and 1300 BCE), these men would ultimately assimilate amongst the Anatolians, so that by the time they would have arrived in Greece during the LBA, they would be entirely LBA Anatolian in their autosomal ancestry, but their Y's would still be J-L70. It doesn't stop there, they would have continued mixing in Greece, ultimately becoming autosomally modern Greek today, with their lines remaining J-L70. Obviously when their ancestors would have arrived from the Levant, it is unlikely that they would remain Levantine - point being people are bound to mix and mingle, with the "original" autosomal ancestry dying out. [An exception would be the Jewish populations, who have always retained a large proportion of "original" ancestry]

    Additionally, by the time J-L70 men from the Levant arrived in Anatolia, they would not have been 100% Levantine farmer. They would have ancestry from several sources, being Natufian, Anatolian Farmer, Iranian Farmer, CHG, even some Steppe. So one can easily say some of the non-Levantine Farmer ancestry in BA Anatolians could have been from them. But ultimately I have no interest in debating on whether Italians and Greeks have Levantine ancestry (although given the presence of J-L70 among them - not to mention other Levantine uniparentals in these regions, we can basically confirm they had Levantine ancestors at some point).

    It is not clear on what basis you think J-L70 came from the Caucasus - is it just due to autosomal ancestry? In which case, you'd make a stronger argument by saying it just originated in Anatolia.

    You might say that the first point I raised can easily be flipped around, with Caucasian men arriving in the Levant, assimilating, and being responsible for the J-L70 in the Levant. But we can dismiss this for several reasons (which doubles as evidence J-L70 never came from the Caucasus):
    1) J-L70 is a rare clade in the Caucasus, except amongst Jews (Mizrahi - Juhurim) and Armenians, however Herrera et al, (2011) concluded that most of the paternal lineages studied amongst Armenians were introduced from the Levant. In this specific paper, they found J-M318 in 5% of Armenians from Lake Van - J-M318 is Jewish in origin, reinforcing that at least some of Armenian J-L70 is Levantine. Several other Armenian lineages fall under J-Z40772, which shares a common ancestor will several Jewish branches at 2700 ybp, and with a large Jewish branch at 2900 ybp, reinforcing once again a Levantine origin. We also need to remember that the Caucasus is a more heavily tested region, particularly than the Levant and Anatolia.
    2) Considering the greater number of Caucasian men tested, we find no Basal branches of J-L70 amongst them
    3) Considering the greater number of Caucasian men tested, we don't find any significant diversity of J-L70 branches amongst them
    4) J-L70's main growth period ends abruptly with the Late Bronze Age collapse, solidifying J-L70 being heavily nested within the Eastern Mediterranean - I don't suppose the Sea People's invaded the Caucasus as well?



    Having dismissed coming from the Caucasus, the next thing to address is spreading from Anatolia. While more likely than the Caucasus, there still is not convincing evidence for this. J-L70 is not a Neolithic marker, and could not have spread via Neolithic movements. J-Z387 is a different story, with it likely arriving in the Levant via Late Neolithic Mesopotamians (with the ancestor, J-L24 and J-L25 originating in Iran). I did address in my first post why it's not really possible for J-L70 to have spread from Anatolia, with one set of branches going to Greece, while another went to the Levant. The phylogeny simply tells a different story. It's not like we see a clear cluster of Greek branches, and then a clear cluster of Levantine branches - all of J-L70's branches are mixed. This suggests J-L70 diversified amongst a certain culture, or in a certain region before spreading all over. Additionally, we find Jewish branches throughout J-L70, whereas we would need Jewish branches in just one neck of the woods for a spread from Anatolia to work. The presence of Jewish branches throughout the phylogeny strongly supports a spread from the Levant, especially since Jews tended to remain insular.

    I'll just repost why a Levantine origin for J-L70 is most likely, and has the greatest evidence:

    "A Levantine origin for J-L70 makes the most sense given the great branch diversity, higher frequencies than other regions, and presence of several layers of Basal branches (J-L70* in Jordan, J-FT340863 in an Sinai Egyptian and Palestinian, J-Z387* in several Sephardic Jews, and two different J-FGC35503* branches in Lebanon). Should J-L70 not originate in the Levant, this is all very coincidental. The nail on the hammer for a Levantine origin for J-L70 are the
    15 distinct, distant Jewish branches. No similarly aged clade has as many distinct Jewish lineages - save for perhaps J-Y2919, but that's 600 years older."

    So pretty much, this is the likely migration path we're dealing with: J-L25 (Iran) >...> J-Z387 (Mesopotamia) > J-L70 (Levant)
    Jewish diversity of J-L70 is to be expected.
    Modern Jews Literally came from all over the Middle east and Europe.Jews from Ethiopia, Jews from Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Kurdistan, Caucasus, Egyptian, Tunisian, Algerian, Spain, Italy, Greece(ancient Jewish communities) etc etc. There isn't a place around Mediterranean than hasn't lend its Genetics to Jews.
    Levant is also a bad place for seek genetic answers. Just in the the last 3000 it experienced extreme levels of both with-in MENA and outside of MENA colonization. Just enumerate how many MENA ethnic groups poured into the space modern Israel/Palestine/Jordan occupies leaving their genetic footprint on the Population between 2000 to 200-300 A.D, and since J2a is one of the main lineages in all the surrounding populations, it introduced many new clades into the the Jewish Space.Jewish Genetic expansion seems to occurred in late classical and in the antiquities as Judaism became the second biggest religion in the Roman Empire and Middle East experiencing and extrovert and syncretic phase(which gave birth both to Christianity and Islam and facilitated their expansions) both in Israel proper and Jewish communities through out the empire, spamming from the Yemen to South Europe. The liquidity of Judaism in this era facilitated the genetic interactions. Lets not forget that the major Jewish revolts are characterize by many historians as Jewish civil wars between ''new age'' Jews(either Hellenistic-Judaic or Grekoroman-Mithradist-Judaic religious Syncretism) and Zealots orthodox. With the Jewish Revolts (and zealots dominance) and the rise of (''jew-critical'')Christianity and Islam, Jewish Genetic interactions with their hosting populations seem to have Closed up, or Greatly reduced. For the next 2000 years Diaspora practice mainly In-breading that made those lines distinguishable for the same reason more (and definitely)European Lines are distinguishable in Jews.
    So why wouldn't be the Jewish L70 lines be diverse and distinct?

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