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Thread: Neolithic Anatolia-Kinship Patterns

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Distance to: Torziok12b
    35.63839617 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    44.48810515 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    50.69296401 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    63.25287029 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    83.94777960 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)



    Distance to: Torziok12b
    7.68250060 55.80% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 44.20% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    14.38151946 59.80% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 40.20% Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    24.72679905 61.20% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 38.80% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    34.23026843 88.60% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 11.40% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)
    34.89292367 88.00% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 12.00% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    37.09479092 24.60% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 75.40% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    42.57272248 68.00% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 32.00% Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    44.08610484 64.40% Yamna_culture_(n=16) + 35.60% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    45.16134074 24.60% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 75.40% Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    54.78189964 33.20% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 66.80% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)


    Target: Torziok12b
    Distance: 6.1233% / 6.12334837
    51.8 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    38.2 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    6.5 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    3.5 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    Interesting how you have a lot of WHG and little Yamna.
    What part of northern Italy are you from, if I may ask?

  2. #27
    Regular Member Stuvanè's Avatar
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Mine (from #post 22)

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    29.64418968 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    49.80034638 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    54.35271842 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    60.47015793 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    82.77904022 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)


    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 2.4334% / 2.43335712
    61.7 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    25.8 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    12.5 Yamna_culture_(n=16)

    2 way mode

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    5.51641130 63.00% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 37.00% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    10.20585716 65.80% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 34.20% Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    27.64557649 56.40% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 43.60% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    28.31281528 89.80% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 10.20% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)
    28.83966408 88.60% Anatolian_N_(n=22) + 11.40% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    41.15434930 28.00% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 72.00% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    45.18996930 57.00% Yamna_culture_(n=16) + 43.00% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    47.66787639 27.80% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 72.20% Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    47.68709109 64.60% Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21) + 35.40% Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    52.01703240 32.40% Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5) + 67.60% Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)

  3. #28
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Torzio and Stuvanè

    Hmm, I guess it is not perfect. It is unlikely you would have so much WHG and so little Steppe.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    It’s not a good fit to me.





    Better fit I obtain in admixture mode when I can add EEF like, as for example Remedello and/or Nuragic.

    Nuragic_Sardinia_(n=13),0.00,0.00,4.03,0.36,66.71, 5.81,0.07,0.03,8.09,0.05,14.64,0.23
    CA_Remedello_culture_(n=3),0.00,0.00,0.78,0.71,69. 04,11.78,0.00,0.00,5.18,0.00,11.80,0.72




  5. #30
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    I wonder what outcome a Basque like Gaska would get on this calculator?

  6. #31
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    ^^
    I think the modeling is definitely not accurate

    Distance to: Spanish_Basque
    49.84300881 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    50.25659161 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    67.86988507 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    85.45078525 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    93.51106031 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)

    Target: Spanish_Basque
    Distance: 30.9785% / 30.97851353
    50.3 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    49.7 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^
    I think the modeling is definitely not accurate

    Distance to: Spanish_Basque
    49.84300881 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    50.25659161 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    67.86988507 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    85.45078525 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    93.51106031 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)

    Target: Spanish_Basque
    Distance: 30.9785% / 30.97851353
    50.3 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    49.7 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    Why is the 2-way at a distance of 30?

  8. #33
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.


    it is not a 2-way fit, it is using the single tab, with no restriction on the amount of populations the algorithm can use. It is just a poor fit using these aggregates. Again, this is not perfect, unfortunately. Which is why you can't take modeling with these kinds of calculators seriously.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    it is not a 2-way fit, it is using the single tab, with no restriction on the amount of populations the algorithm can use. It is just a poor fit using these aggregates. Again, this is not perfect, unfortunately. Which is why you can't take modeling with these kinds of calculators seriously.

    Sorry, single-tab not 2-way.

    I think the calculator definitely shows more WHG in northern than southern Italy.

  10. #35
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Sorry, single-tab not 2-way.

    I think the calculator definitely shows more WHG in northern than southern Italy.
    It is actually a good demonstration of how these amateur calculators just pick the sample that arbitrarily aligns best on the x,y,z axis.

    Northern Italians do not have that much WHG, and that little steppe.

  11. #36
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Why is the 2-way at a distance of 30?
    Because a 2-way model force the results, and then the distances show how the results are not a best fit.

  12. #37
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Interesting how you have a lot of WHG and little Yamna.
    What part of northern Italy are you from, if I may ask?
    paternal line from

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzano_Veneto

    ...................

    from 1750

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montebelluna


    .....................

    from 1600

    Val di Non area ................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_di_Non_(district)



    I think the formula presented is skewed ....my opinion
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I wonder what outcome a Basque like Gaska would get on this calculator?
    I don't have much time to use these calculators or to model samples, and I also find some of them to be very misleading. Some people say that K13 is one of the best (I have my doubts about that too). Anyway this is the result of my father (Basque Country with 8 Basque grandparents).

    # Population-Percent
    North Atlantic-51,60
    West Med-30,82
    Baltic-7,46
    East Med-7,12
    Red Sea-0,64
    Sub-Saharan-0,63
    West Asian-0,74
    East Asian-0,99

    @Gaska

    # Population-Percent
    North-Atlantic-43.28
    West-Med-26.14
    East-Med-13.11
    Baltic-11.14
    Red-Sea-1.96
    Northeast-African-1.24
    South-Asian-1.10
    West-Asian-0.75
    Oceanian-0.58
    Sub-Saharan-0.41
    East-Asian -0.22
    Amerindian-0.07
    Siberian-0.00

    As you will see my percentages are different from my father's - this is because my mother is Galician (northwestern Spain), so I am only half Basque. My father is 8% plus North atlantic, 4% plus West Med-I am 3,5% plus Baltic and I have gained 5,99 East Med, 1,32 red sea, 1,24 North east african, 0,01 west asian, 0,07 amerindian-I have lost 0,22 subsaharan, 0,77 east asian. And this only in one generation. If we apply these results to phenotypes it is even funnier because my father has brown hair and brown eyes, and I am blond with blue eyes - how did I get it? i.e. I may have blue eyes thanks to my mother's red sea, african or amerindian percentages (I'm kidding of course). It is simply an example of how these percentages are ineffective in determining the phenotypes of individuals (at least in Europe).

    I do not know the origin of the samples used to establish these identities, nor do I understand very well how they can be established in such a categorical way, although I understand that it is fun for people to use this kind of calculators.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Jovialis
    23.48044718 Anatolian_N_(n=22)
    51.09580805 Epipaleolithic_Mesolithic_Caucasus_(CHG)_(n=2)
    57.87433801 Yamna_culture_(n=16)
    59.47045569 Mesolithic_West_Europeans_(WHG)_(n=21)
    80.93197699 Epipaleolithic_Magreb_(Iberomaurusians)_(n=5)



    Even the two-way analysis is a good fit:

    Very interesting results, they look robust. What are the Anatolia_N (n=22) used? Do they include only those most distinctive from other Near Eastern clusters, like Boncuklu and Barcin, or are they from all of them, including those that were already by the Early Neolithic the groups most admixed with Levant_Meso, CHG and Iran_Meso like Tepecik-Ciftlik and Kumtepe, before the much more intense mish-mash of those clusters after the LN?

  15. #40
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Sorry, single-tab not 2-way.

    I think the calculator definitely shows more WHG in northern than southern Italy.
    With those extremely high distances, I seriously doubt the person who tested those models included source populations that represent Steppe admixture (like Yamnaya and CWC samples) and perhaps other necessary (concerning European-wide genetic history) source samples if you want to reach a reasonable result in these ancestry models, like Iberomaurusian (proxy for North African admixture), Iran_N/CHG and EHG (Karelia, Samara, Khvalynsk_HG). The models for Basques, at least using Global25 database's coordinates, have a pretty low and historically plausible fit considering how drifted by isolation (therefore, worse fits are to be expected) the Basques are:

    Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    Distance: 5.1578% / 0.05157804


    55.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    27.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.6 WHG
    6.4 LUX_Loschbour
    0.0 GEO_CHG
    0.0 Iberia_ElMiron
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 MAR_Taforalt
    0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    0.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N
    0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia

    Target: Basque_Spanish
    Distance: 4.9181% / 0.04918058


    56.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    25.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    18.0 LUX_Loschbour
    0.0 GEO_CHG
    0.0 Iberia_ElMiron
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 MAR_Taforalt
    0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    0.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N
    0.0 WHG
    0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia

    Target: Basque_French
    Distance: 4.9430% / 0.04943036

    55.6 TUR_Barcin_N

    25.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    12.2 WHG
    6.4 LUX_Loschbour
    0.0 GEO_CHG
    0.0 Iberia_ElMiron
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 MAR_Taforalt
    0.0 RUS_Karelia_HG
    0.0 RUS_Samara_HG
    0.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N
    0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
    Attached Images Attached Images

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