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Thread: 'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

  1. #26
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    You are mixing up r1b z2103 with j2b l283 - z2103 is almost non existant in western europe whereas j2b is found more in italy.

    Albanians today have 1% western european r1b, it is clear to understand that z2103 and western r1b came from opposite directions
    Oh right. Sorry. Confused your first sentence thinking you were talking about L283. But yes the other points regarding L283 still stand and you might wanna address with yourself. It would take me some time to find a post of mine from long ago listing time, geolocation and subclade of all ancient L283 samples we know so far. But there are 3 Nuragics, 1 Dalmatian, 1 Maros, and a rumored according to Eurogenes J2B2 likely L283 from Moldova. The older basal ones are North of the Caucasus, hence why a Indo European North of the Black Sea through the Steppe route into Easter Balkans then through the Danube into North Western Balkans route is highly suggested by the evidence we have so far as to what path L283 took into Europe. The Nuragics are the biggest puzzle as they had to have taken a sea route to get there. But they postdate Dalmatian and Maros sample by some 600+ years, and the older Caucasus and possibly Moldovan sample by a thousand at least.

    Hope this helps.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Oh right. Sorry. Confused your first sentence thinking you were talking about L283. But yes the other points regarding L283 still stand and you might wanna address with yourself. It would take me some time to find a post of mine from long ago listing time, geolocation and subclade of all ancient L283 samples we know so far. But there are 3 Nuragics, 1 Dalmatian, 1 Maros, and a rumored according to Eurogenes J2B2 likely L283 from Moldova. The older basal ones are North of the Caucasus, hence why a Indo European North of the Black Sea through the Steppe route into Easter Balkans then through the Danube into North Western Balkans route is highly suggested by the evidence we have so far as to what path L283 took into Europe. The Nuragics are the biggest puzzle as they had to have taken a sea route to get there. But they postdate Dalmatian and Maros sample by some 600+ years, and the older Caucasus and possibly Moldovan sample by a thousand at least.

    Hope this help.
    If we are talking about these sort of dates then it is difficult to link j2b l283 to illyrians as it clearly predates them. We need ancient dna from 900bc-100ad to better determine

  3. #28
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    If we are talking about these sort of dates then it is difficult to link j2b l283 to illyrians as it clearly predates them. We need ancient dna from 900bc-100ad to better determine
    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Hence why I am now even more convinced R1b and J2b2 had to be these Indo Europeans we are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Hence why I am now even more convinced R1b and J2b2 had to be these Indo Europeans we are talking about.
    That is cool but it doesnt answer the question regarding illyrians until we get concrete dates. Only late bronze would be helpful, mostly iron age. It could be illyrians came from elsewhere and wiped out/outnumbered these existing groups

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    That is cool but it doesnt answer the question regarding illyrians until we get concrete dates. Only late bronze would be helpful, mostly iron age. It could be illyrians came from elsewhere and wiped out/outnumbered these existing groups
    Whatever they were, these L283 have continuously lived in the Western Balkans over the last 3-4k years. Which brings us to the topic of this useless thread from this Parapolitikos guy, the same guy that got banned couple of months ago for spewing similar incoherent nonsense, unfortunately taking away with him a lot of the Albanians that got baited in the process at the time. Half my friendlist is banned, yet this ----- still continues. Quite sad.

    Edit: Shoutout to Laberia and Nik, hope you're doing well boys.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 23-04-21 at 00:31. Reason: Redundant phrase

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Whatever they were, these L283 have continuously lived in the Western Balkans over the last 3-4k years. Which brings us to the topic of this useless thread from this Parapolitikos guy, the same guy that got banned couple of months ago for spewing similar incoherent nonsense couple of months ago, unfortunately taking away with him a lot of the Albanians that got baited in the process at the time. Half my friendlist is banned, yet this ----- still continues. Quite sad.
    I completely forgot about that idiot, people shouldnt get so worked up about y dna when we dont have enough ancient dna to determine who came from where. We are only speculating

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    How do you conclude that J2a is foreign in the albanian population?

    All J2a that we have at Rrenjet, many of them high resolution test are all bronze age. No specific connection to greeks or italians for at least 3,000 ybp. even more in fact. so there is zero data that J2a is foreign.
    Do you have any concrete data/evidence on what you are saying?
    J2a exists practically only in South Albania.And in small traces what ever quantities managed to reach north Albania due to sociopolitical reasons in last 10 centuries; slaves, slave soldiers, converts, soldiers, refugees etc. It is a main lineage in The South and in Arbeneshe in South Italy. Similarly,in all the regions around Albania J2a is a main lineage. Gheghs are the only genetic paradox.So it's the other way around.

    And By ghegs i dont mean the linguistic division. Gheg-like population most certainly settled in south Albania too in the last 1000 years. That we know for sure. There is no other way that the J-ph1751 and R-Z2705 could have arrived in the region. Not only the haplogroups are very young themselves as a whole, but the TMRCA of all the samples with in the clans and between the clans, show clans members came themselves from a small group of people that delineated gradually from a main population to become the clans.

    (from Voskarides and other peer review papers' numbers - Note: J2b lineages arent J-ph1751 outside Albanians)
    Population J2a J2b J2b/J2a ratio
    Albania Kosovo 2 -% 16,5%
    Greeks Crete 30.90% 2.40% 0.09
    Turks Central Anatolia 26.70% 0.80% 0.03
    Greek Cypriots 23.80% 5.80% 0.2
    Turks West Anatolia 19.60% 1.20% 0.06
    Turks East Anatolia 19.20% 4.80% 0.25
    Italians Sicily 18.40% 3.90% 0.21
    Turks South Anatolia 18.20% 6.10% 0.3
    Armenians Anatolia (Sasun) 17.30% 0.00% 0
    Italians South (Griko spekaers) 17.00% 4.30% 0.25
    Italians South 16.50% 2.90% 0.18
    Italians Central 15.90% 3.70% 0.23
    Greeks Central Greece and Attica 14.60% 9.50% 0.65
    Greeks Thrace 14.60% 2.40% 0.17
    Greeks Asia Minor and Aegean 14.30% 5.70% 0.4
    Turks North Anatolia 13.40% 2.70% 0.2
    Greeks Peloponnese 12.30% 3.40% 0.35
    Greeks Thessaly 11.10% 9.70% 0.9
    Greeks Macedonia 8.50% 5.70% 0.7
    Arbereshe 8.50% 3.80% 0.44
    Romania 8.40% 6% 0.71
    Albanian Tosk 7.60% 11.50% 1.5
    FYROM 7% 5% 0.71
    Bulgaria 6.90% 2.70% 0.39
    Italians North 6.80% 1.80% 0.26
    FYROM 2 5.00% 2% 0.5
    Slovania 4% 3.10% 0.77
    Hungary 3.70% 4.20% 1.13
    Montengro 3.50% 4.40% 1.25
    Albanian Kosovo 3% 13% 4.3
    Serbia 2.60% 1.60% 0.61
    Albanian North Ghegs 2.50% 25% 10
    Bosnia 2.20% 1.80% 0.81
    Croatians 1.90% 2.10% 1.1
    Albanian FYROM 1.60% 14% 11.5
    Albania FYROM 2 1.00% 18% 18

    Bellow the Young devolution of Ph1751 and its extreme regionalism, from Rrenjet:

    J-Y21045-1.05.jpg

    A similar diagram from Albanian Y-dna Project:

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #34
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    So you are surprised there is no L283 in Chameria after a Genocide? Quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Are you sure you found not a single link to italy or greece? Do you know how much j2a is found in greece and south italy? There is a lot so maybe take a closer look. Otherwise, start looking at the middle east or maybe Bulgaria/Romania since they have some too
    Well I am sure with facts that have been collected that make up the larges sample of Y dna of the Albanian population. So unless you have another sample of that is larger or better its wiser to stick with the current data that we have.
    Also look at Yfull data. Albanian J2a results there don't have any closer match with Italians or Greeks that would indicate that J2a is not native to the area.
    If in the future we get dna results that would say otherwise we can revisit this point. Until than J2a clades found in the Albanian population remain native and not "foreign".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    There are so many things wrong with what you say that I dont know where to start. I will pick a few:
    There is no Muslim movement from the north to the south. where do you come up with this things. Albanian middle age migration from north to south happened before Ottoman occupation. By the time of the ottoman occupation the country was already settled with the current structure. The only meaningful movement that happened during ottoman period was regional, for example from the highland of Mirdite to its nearest lowlands in Lezha. From south Dibra and Librazhd to the lowland of Elbasan and Belc. So this kind of movement were localized and did not change in essence the structure of the population regionally in terms of haplogroup or religion.

    Most j2b2 presence in the south is from middle age migration from north to south but this has nothing to do with the theories that you started this thread.

    your effort of trying to see these haplos as connected to religion is also ridiculous. example most labs were orthodox 300 ybp and that regions was settled with the current population a few centuries before this conversion so this kind of thinking does not take you anywhere and opens up a useless subject.

    et, etc.

  12. #37
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    No use arguing with this guy Gjergj. Has been tried before, but he has some complex when it comes to Y lineages that Albanians and Greeks share. Some kind of fascination with our people, of the morbid kind.

    What is worse, he likely paints the wrong picture about Greek genetics as well. Maybe he should look in Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before claiming any sort of L283 is absent from Greece.

    The sad part is that it doesn't sit well with his propaganda brainwashed mind that Albanian and Greek genetics both in Y and autosomal DNA have so much in common. This is why I hate politics by the way, turns cousins into historical enemies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    No use arguing with this guy Gjergj. Has been tried before, but he has some complex when it comes to Y lineages that Albanians and Greeks share. Some kind of fascination with our people, of the morbid kind.

    What is worse, he likely paints the wrong picture about Greek genetics as well. Maybe he should look in Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before claiming any sort of L283 is absent from Greece.

    The sad part is that it doesn't sit well with his propaganda brainwashed mind that Albanian and Greek genetics both in Y and autosomal DNA have so much in common. This is why I hate politics by the way, turns cousins into historical enemies...
    You are in a Genetics forum buddy.Genetics are discussed in a genetic forum.With evidence if you can. I ve used the data from two Albanian genetics forum and peer review papers, not my theories. And the evaluations/conclusions from Both projects. Data and are like letters, they form words, and words form sentences and from those inescapable conclusions derive. To what degree you like them or not, it doesn't make them any less valid.

    It's not me that Argues that there isnt much L283 in Arvanites, Cams or Arbereshe, it's the data from 3-4 studies, including the data from 2 Albania DNA projects. Voskarides study also reaffirms that indirectly as Peloponnese is the area of Greece with the lowest J2b rates.
    Voskarides.jpg
    Another Study from an area inhabited by arvanites also shows negligible levels of J2b (it's the third one):
    Attachment 12657

    Same is shown by the study on Arbereshe.

    Those are a small fragment of the evidence. Once you gather all the evidence and align them you have a clearer idea about historical population movements that shape the genetic profiles of the regions.

    Evidence like this one for instance which is by far the most important: Why Albanians from south Albania and Albanians from Kosovo share almost none of the clades found in each place, when the regions hae big presence of J-ph1751 and R-Z2705?
    DIFFERENT e-v13 clades, DIFFERENT J1 clades, DIFFERENT R1a Clades, DIFFERENT (non z2705) R1b clades,

    Here is the spread of different Ev13 clades. Thousands of years apart
    ev13.jpg

    Here is for the different clades of R1b(non-2705). Thousands of years apart too.
    R-PF7563.jpg
    Here are the Different clades of J2b. Thousands of years apart also.
    j2b2.jpg

    Etc etc. Similar pattern you will see in the rest of the haplogroups.

    Now here are the one million $ questions. How come in spite the proximity of the geography of South and North Albania, the only clades of the haplogroups North and South Albanians share are the two that are 1000 years old?How come? And why arent they shared by people that left Albania 600 and 700 years ago? Why the people that spread to such vast extend the two young haplogroups, Ph1751 & R-Z2705, didnt spread any other haplogroups?


    Go ahead, give me any model that can explain all the above and i am open minded, if it makes sense i will accept it.

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    It's because J2b2 was more of a Dalmatian and Montenegrin Illyrian Y-DNA than deeper inland. This is what i theorize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    J2a exists practically only in South Albania.And in small traces what ever quantities managed to reach north Albania due to sociopolitical reasons in last 10 centuries; slaves, slave soldiers, converts, soldiers, refugees etc. It is a main lineage in The South and in Arbeneshe in South Italy. Similarly,in all the regions around Albania J2a is a main lineage. Gheghs are the only genetic paradox.So it's the other way around.

    And By ghegs i dont mean the linguistic division. Gheg-like population most certainly settled in south Albania too in the last 1000 years. That we know for sure. There is no other way that the J-ph1751 and R-Z2705 could have arrived in the region. Not only the haplogroups are very young themselves as a whole, but the TMRCA of all the samples with in the clans and between the clans, show clans members came themselves from a small group of people that delineated gradually from a main population to become the clans.

    (from Voskarides and other peer review papers' numbers - Note: J2b lineages arent J-ph1751 outside Albanians)
    Population J2a J2b J2b/J2a ratio
    Albania Kosovo 2 -% 16,5%
    Greeks Crete 30.90% 2.40% 0.09
    Turks Central Anatolia 26.70% 0.80% 0.03
    Greek Cypriots 23.80% 5.80% 0.2
    Turks West Anatolia 19.60% 1.20% 0.06
    Turks East Anatolia 19.20% 4.80% 0.25
    Italians Sicily 18.40% 3.90% 0.21
    Turks South Anatolia 18.20% 6.10% 0.3
    Armenians Anatolia (Sasun) 17.30% 0.00% 0
    Italians South (Griko spekaers) 17.00% 4.30% 0.25
    Italians South 16.50% 2.90% 0.18
    Italians Central 15.90% 3.70% 0.23
    Greeks Central Greece and Attica 14.60% 9.50% 0.65
    Greeks Thrace 14.60% 2.40% 0.17
    Greeks Asia Minor and Aegean 14.30% 5.70% 0.4
    Turks North Anatolia 13.40% 2.70% 0.2
    Greeks Peloponnese 12.30% 3.40% 0.35
    Greeks Thessaly 11.10% 9.70% 0.9
    Greeks Macedonia 8.50% 5.70% 0.7
    Arbereshe 8.50% 3.80% 0.44
    Romania 8.40% 6% 0.71
    Albanian Tosk 7.60% 11.50% 1.5
    FYROM 7% 5% 0.71
    Bulgaria 6.90% 2.70% 0.39
    Italians North 6.80% 1.80% 0.26
    FYROM 2 5.00% 2% 0.5
    Slovania 4% 3.10% 0.77
    Hungary 3.70% 4.20% 1.13
    Montengro 3.50% 4.40% 1.25
    Albanian Kosovo 3% 13% 4.3
    Serbia 2.60% 1.60% 0.61
    Albanian North Ghegs 2.50% 25% 10
    Bosnia 2.20% 1.80% 0.81
    Croatians 1.90% 2.10% 1.1
    Albanian FYROM 1.60% 14% 11.5
    Albania FYROM 2 1.00% 18% 18

    Bellow the Young devolution of Ph1751 and its extreme regionalism, from Rrenjet:

    J-Y21045-1.05.jpg

    A similar diagram from Albanian Y-dna Project:
    Utter nonsense, j2a is a not a major lineage in south albania, those are still ev13 & r1b z2103, if j2a is a major lineage then so is i1! Even i2a din is more common in south albania than the entirety of j2a

    Also arbereshe had a mix of greeks and slavs/romanians which explains their y dna with elevated j2a and i2a din

  16. #41
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    Bro you are arguing with someone who thinks ph1751 is the only L283 branch in Albanians. Might as well argue with a rock.

    Greeks Central Greece and Attica 9.5% j2b
    Greeks Asia Minor and Aegean 5.&% j2b
    Greeks Peloponesse 3.4% j2b (
    Albanians in the Morea (Peloponnese) flee to Italy afterTurkish encroachments 1532–1533) https://www.slideshare.net/madopol/robert-elise-historical-dictionary-of-albania-2nd-editionpdf
    Greeks Thessaly 9.7% j2b
    Greeks Macedonia 5.7% j2b

    Almost all European j2b is L283.
    What is the use arguing with someone who doesn't even analyze the source he himself provides to make some point he already has in his mind. Usually you look at the data, analyze it then you make a point.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    Poor analysis, the movement from North to South is known but happened before Ottoman invasion not related to religion. Tosk vs Geg differences are logical as the language differences, go in line with each other. It will be interesting to have something similar from Greece, can you provide something like this?


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    You are arguing with a guy who thinks north albanians are not albanian because they carry less south slavic and greek dna than arbereshe, surely this topic should be closed. Not to mention his data for albanian dna is out of date and too small to compare

    The guy put up data that shows arbereshe had elevated levels of south slavic y dna, elevated e-m123 (likely italian) and even elevated levels of g and j2a which are clearly either greek or italian and then says why dont albanians (especially north) have these today

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    You are arguing with a guy who thinks north albanians are not albanian because they carry less south slavic and greek dna than arbereshe, surely this topic should be closed. Not to mention his data for albanian dna is out of date and too small to compare

    The guy put up data that shows arbereshe had elevated levels of south slavic y dna, elevated e-m123 (likely italian) and even elevated levels of g and j2a which are clearly either greek or italian and then says why dont albanians (especially north) have these today
    Albanians have their own J2a clusters that is not related since the Bronze Age with any Greek J2a. Also, G is Neolithic. Im not sure if there are any Albanian specific branches yet, but its not all Greek.

    I agree with the rest. Hes obviously making himself look the fool.

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    I haven't been following Albanian genetics for a while, so I must ask why did this "Rrenjet" site split off from Gjenetika and why does Gjergj sound like some weird businessman?
    I don't think this split is very healthy for the studies of Albanian genetics at all. Very regrettable.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    You are arguing with a guy who thinks north albanians are not albanian because they carry less south slavic and greek dna than arbereshe, surely this topic should be closed. Not to mention his data for albanian dna is out of date and too small to compare
    The guy put up data that shows arbereshe had elevated levels of south slavic y dna, elevated e-m123 (likely italian) and even elevated levels of g and j2a which are clearly either greek or italian and then says why dont albanians (especially north) have these today
    Why would Arbereshe have high level of Slavic DNa (allegedly) when there is little Slavic(allegedly) DNA in North Albania and Kosovo today?
    As for E-M123, Italy hasn't greater presence of E-m123 than the Balkans, so how would mixing with the locals elevate their levels?
    e-M123.jpg
    There is an Arch of E-m123 that starts from European Turkey at 4-5% Continues to Bulgarian Black sea region at the same levels and progressively falls as we move west through south Bulgaria and Fyrom 2-3%, to Fyrom Albanians at 3% and stops at the gates of North Albania.

    North Albania though has very little today, lot less than 1%, which again indicates to foreign origins of Ghegs.
    Another Line of evidence than North Albania probably had high levels of E-m123, before the migration of North Albanians and the arrival of Ghegs, is that across the sea in the areas of Messapians people(in ancient times) that has high E-M12 in spite the fact that part of Italy experienced multiple migrations/colonization movements since the Messapian culture.
    Haplogroup-frequencies-as-percentages-in-the-10-analysed-Italian-population-samples.jpg

    Taking in mind that Slavs certainly didn't bring E-m123 in the Balkans, and most certainly had nothing to do with the levels found in Italy, the levels of E-m123 around its Balkanic arch would have been a lot higher originally in ancient times, before the Arrival of Slavs , Vlachs and Turks. That Arch logically ended at Coastal North Albania , It's populations were probably the last part of the Balkans left unaffected from all those migrations, which correspond to the history of the region and the Y-dna evidence.
    Last edited by Parapolitikos; 07-06-21 at 14:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Poor analysis, the movement from North to South is known but happened before Ottoman invasion not related to religion. Tosk vs Geg differences are logical as the language differences, go in line with each other. It will be interesting to have something similar from Greece, can you provide something like this?


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    But they dont go in line. Based on different studies and the Albanian Y-dan projects, you got:

    Arberehse came from North Albania, but they speak Tosk, and they have R1b-L23/L51 but no R1b-L23/Z2705 and Very little (unclassified) j2b, which would mean little J2b-ph1751 ( if any at all).

    Arvanites came from South Albania, but they have no J2b-ph1751 (samples are small though), although exists plentiful in the geographic space of South Albania.

    Chams who are an extension of South Albanias also have no J2b-ph1751 either(samples are small though)

    Next door Laps have both high J2b-ph1751 and R1b-L23/Z2705

    Tosk speakers with out the Laps have much less J2b-ph1751 but high R1b-L23/Z2705

    Ghegs have high J2b-ph1751 and high R1b-L23/Z2705

    if Arvanites came from South Albania in the 15th century onward, why isnt there any J2b-ph1751 although it's found now in South Albania?
    If Arbereshe came from North Albania in the 15th century, why isnt there huge amounts of J2b and no R1b-L23/Z2705?
    Almost all the R1B in Arbereshe is L51.

    All the evidence indicate to a recent Expansion of Ghegs.

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    R1b-Z2705 is present among Arbereshe of Sicily and Calabria in Boattini 2015. Check out samples ALB41*, DB2779, DB2780, DB2798 and perhaps ALB5*, shit for brains.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    But they dont go in line. Based on different studies and the Albanian Y-dan projects, you got:

    Arberehse came from North Albania, but they speak Tosk, and they have R1b-L23/L51 but no R1b-L23/Z2705 and Very little (unclassified) j2b, which would mean little J2b-ph1751 ( if any at all).

    Arvanites came from South Albania, but they have no J2b-ph1751 (samples are small though), although exists plentiful in the geographic space of South Albania.

    Chams who are an extension of South Albanias also have no J2b-ph1751 either(samples are small though)

    Next door Laps have both high J2b-ph1751 and R1b-L23/Z2705

    Tosk speakers with out the Laps have much less J2b-ph1751 but high R1b-L23/Z2705

    Ghegs have high J2b-ph1751 and high R1b-L23/Z2705

    if Arvanites came from South Albania in the 15th century onward, why isnt there any J2b-ph1751 although it's found now in South Albania?
    If Arbereshe came from North Albania in the 15th century, why isnt there huge amounts of J2b and no R1b-L23/Z2705?
    Almost all the R1B in Arbereshe is L51.

    All the evidence indicate to a recent Expansion of Ghegs.
    Again, rapid expansion of Tosk and Geg in last 1500 years. It’s known. Thanks for trying to raise meaningful questions.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    But they dont go in line. Based on different studies and the Albanian Y-dan projects, you got:
    Arberehse came from North Albania, but they speak Tosk, and they have R1b-L23/L51 but no R1b-L23/Z2705 and Very little (unclassified) j2b, which would mean little J2b-ph1751 ( if any at all).
    Arvanites came from South Albania, but they have no J2b-ph1751 (samples are small though), although exists plentiful in the geographic space of South Albania.
    Chams who are an extension of South Albanias also have no J2b-ph1751 either(samples are small though)
    Next door Laps have both high J2b-ph1751 and R1b-L23/Z2705
    Tosk speakers with out the Laps have much less J2b-ph1751 but high R1b-L23/Z2705
    Ghegs have high J2b-ph1751 and high R1b-L23/Z2705
    if Arvanites came from South Albania in the 15th century onward, why isnt there any J2b-ph1751 although it's found now in South Albania?
    If Arbereshe came from North Albania in the 15th century, why isnt there huge amounts of J2b and no R1b-L23/Z2705?
    Almost all the R1B in Arbereshe is L51.
    All the evidence indicate to a recent Expansion of Ghegs.
    You stupid clown, arbereshe were south albanians even further south than tosks and they were already slightly mixed with greeks who were already mixed with south slavs. This explains the elevated levels of foreign y dna - then they moved to italy and picked up more foreign y dna. E-m123 is tiny amongst albanians - it is higher in greeks, bulgarians and italians and that is where it came from. R1b l51 is likely from italian mix as it is non existant in albanians today.

    Lack of high j2b amongst south albanians is possibly because it was already dimished after roman conquest, diseases, slavic mix etc. Or it expanded more frequenty in north albanians, we still dont know where it came from and wont know without more ancient dna - it could still either be estruscan or illyrian or pelasgian etc.

    North albanians also moreso refused to deal with foreigners and lived in mountains therefore were able to contain and expand j2b - j2b in south albania today has nothing to do with gegs it is mostly tosks that moved up to geg areas (tirane, shkoder etc). Labs are proof that j2b l283 is not foreign to albanians

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