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Thread: 'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Again, rapid expansion of Tosk and Geg in last 1500 years. It’s known. Thanks for trying to raise meaningful questions.


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    He sounds like hes mad that north albanians are the least mixed people in all of europe whilst greeks are towards top of the chart as the most mixed - someone needs to close this garbage discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Why would Arbereshe have high level of Slavic DNa (allegedly) when there is little Slavic(allegedly) DNA in North Albania and Kosovo today?
    As for E-M123, Italy hasn't greater presence of E-m123 than the Balkans, so how would mixing with the locals elevate their levels?
    Attachment 12728
    There is an Arch of E-m123 that starts from European Turkey at 4-5% Continues to Bulgarian Black sea region at the same levels and progressively falls as we move west through south Bulgaria and Fyrom 2-3%, to Fyrom Albanians at 3% and stops at the gates of North Albania.

    North Albania though has very little today, lot less than 1%, which again indicates to foreign origins of Ghegs.
    Another Line of evidence than North Albania probably had high levels of E-m123, before the migration of North Albanians and the arrival of Ghegs, is that across the sea in the areas of Messapians people(in ancient times) that has high E-M12 in spite the fact that part of Italy experienced multiple migrations/colonization movements since the Messapian culture.
    Attachment 12727

    Taking in mind that Slavs certainly didn't bring E-m123 in the Balkans, and most certainly had nothing to do with the levels found in Italy, the levels of E-m123 around its Balkanic arch would have been a lot higher originally in ancient times, before the Arrival of Slavs , Vlachs and Turks. That Arch logically ended at Coastal North Albania , It's populations were probably the last part of the Balkans left unaffected from all those migrations, which correspond to the history of the region and the Y-dna evidence.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Yes arbereshe was likely the ethnic name albanians used back then so when they moved to italy they kept that identity. Or it was the name for tosks or a subgroup of tosks in 1400s further down the borders of albania today.

    That map has far too many dialect sub groups though as most of those are very similar/identical, albania is already small enough this makes it look even smaller!
    Its similar to how the english have geordie, manc, scouse, cockney etc. Something like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    He sounds like hes mad that north albanians are the least mixed people in all of europe whilst greeks are towards top of the chart as the most mixed - someone needs to close this garbage discussion
    Why close it, it is music for our ears.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Yes arbereshe was likely the ethnic name albanians used back then so when they moved to italy they kept that identity. Or it was the name for tosks or a subgroup of tosks in 1400s further down the borders of albania today.
    That map has far too many dialect sub groups though as most of those are very similar/identical, albania is already small enough this makes it look even smaller!
    Its similar to how the english have geordie, manc, scouse, cockney etc. Something like that
    The truth is that it is very likely
    The source of the high % e-m123 in arbereshe compare
    To albanians in the mainland is probably from italian genflow
    To the original albanian who migrated to sicily calabria in the 15 centurey.... ( also in close small group the % of the specific haplogroup can change)
    Now having said that and although e-m123 is rare in albanians
    The rrenjet project and yfull show us different branches of e-m123>m34 :
    Some are e-pf6751, some are e-fgc18401, and some are e-L791>e-y4972 ,e-z21466
    So they probably didn't enter albania at the same
    Time could be in roman period, late antiquity, othoman army, romaniots, early mediveal ....
    Last edited by kingjohn; 10-06-21 at 14:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    You stupid clown, arbereshe were south albanians even further south than tosks and they were already slightly mixed with greeks who were already mixed with south slavs. This explains the elevated levels of foreign y dna - then they moved to italy and picked up more foreign y dna. E-m123 is tiny amongst albanians - it is higher in greeks, bulgarians and italians and that is where it came from. R1b l51 is likely from italian mix as it is non existant in albanians today.

    Lack of high j2b amongst south albanians is possibly because it was already dimished after roman conquest, diseases, slavic mix etc. Or it expanded more frequenty in north albanians, we still dont know where it came from and wont know without more ancient dna - it could still either be estruscan or illyrian or pelasgian etc.

    North albanians also moreso refused to deal with foreigners and lived in mountains therefore were able to contain and expand j2b - j2b in south albania today has nothing to do with gegs it is mostly tosks that moved up to geg areas (tirane, shkoder etc). Labs are proof that j2b l283 is not foreign to albanians
    The movement of populations concurred with the collapse of Giorgos Kastriotis State, the Kastrioti-Ottoman war, and the Venetian Ottoman war.
    All of them occurred in North Albania. Plus the Earliest settlement of Arbereshe were done by Kastriotis troops as a Reward for the Services he provided to the King of Napoli. The Date of establishment of the Towns tell us they were formed at the late state of the Venetian-Ottoman war.
    By that time, Venetian Albania was essentially reduced to areas in Montenegro. Highly Unlikely that people from Southern Albania would Migrate, a century after the Ottoman conquest, that high up to find Venetian Ships to travel to Italy. Taking in mind how extended was the migration due to Ottoman barbarity (massacres-enslavement of civilians-selling of women a children to slavery), naturally the population movement followed the war lines, to the last safe heaven which were the Venetian Possessions around lake Shkoder.

    As for Labs, they probably came from are settlement of Gheg militias in the region that mixed with the local population and expanded Islam.
    The high presence of Bektashi, the religion of the Ottoman army, in the Region alludes that the region should have been a military center early on. A theory, yes, but what it isnt a theory is the the different Y-DNA profile between Muslims and non-Muslim Tosk Speakers.
    Or even the Difference between Labs and Chams.
    Labs and Chams have among the highest E-v13 rates(of the same Branch) in Albanian populations but are Radically different in much of the rest of the Haplogroups. At least based on the data to this point. A greater sample may differentiate the profile.So by what we have up to this point it's almost like the local population of each neighboring regions, which would have been fairly similar at some point in the not so long ago history, mixed in the last millennia with different populations each. Chams probably with Slavs, and Labs(aboriginal) with Ghegs.
    labs - Chams.jpg
    But Go Ahead give me another explanation why they two Groups are so different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    The truth is that it is very likely
    The source of the high % e-m123 in arbereshe compare
    To albanians in the mainland is probably from italian genflow
    To the original albanian who migrated to sicily calabria in the 15 centurey.... ( also in close small group the % of the specific haplogroup can change)
    Now having said that and although e-m123 is rare in albanians
    The rrenjet project and yfull show us different branches of e-m123>m34 :
    Some are e-pf6751, some are e-fgc18401, and some are e-L791>e-y4972 ,e-z21466
    So they probably didn't enter albania at the same
    Time could be in roman period, late antiquity, othoman army, romaniots, early mediveal ....
    Italians dont have higher E-m123 though than the ares around North Albania, which if we believe the Slavicist narrative they are mainly Slavic in origins.So if it's 3% now in FYROM, it should have been 9% or more originally in the native population with whom the incoming Slavs mixed with. One Study gives a rate of 3% in FYROMIAN Albanians, but of course by my theory, they would be too mixed local Dardanian people with incoming Ghegs.

    Albanians Fyrom.jpg
    Plus the Arbereshe settlements were mostly homogenous new settlements. Built by and for Arbereshe. At least originally. Over time some intermixing with near by populations must have occurred but i doubt it was that severe.
    Additionally the idea that 3-4 different towns (used in the study for Arbereshe), hundreds of km apart, found each a streak of extremely high E-m123 in Native Italians(should have been more than 20% in native italian at a 50% intermixing rate for Arbereshe) , so each town can elevate their E-m123 at the similar levels with each other,it is astronomically improbable.

    Eitherway, where can we see the detailed subclade data of the rrenjet project ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Italians dont have higher E-m123 though than the ares around North Albania, which if we believe the Slavicist narrative they are mainly Slavic in origins.So if it's 3% now in FYROM, it should have been 9% or more originally in the native population with whom the incoming Slavs mixed with. One Study gives a rate of 3% in FYROMIAN Albanians, but of course by my theory, they would be too mixed local Dardanian people with incoming Ghegs.

    Albanians Fyrom.jpg
    Plus the Arbereshe settlements were mostly homogenous new settlements. Built by and for Arbereshe. At least originally. Over time some intermixing with near by populations must have occurred but i doubt it was that severe.
    Additionally the idea that 3-4 different towns (used in the study for Arbereshe), hundreds of km apart, found each a streak of extremely high E-m123 in Native Italians(should have been more than 20% in native italian at a 50% intermixing rate for Arbereshe) , so each town can elevate their E-m123 at the similar levels with each other,it is astronomically improbable.

    Eitherway, where can we see the detailed subclade data of the rrenjet project ?



    i am aware of this paper who found 3% in albanians from fyrom
    by the way the map you gave before about the arch you see is very correct
    there is indeed 4% e-m123 in european turkey and also burgas province bulgaria ( that could be explained by turks who can left some signiture in bulgaria )


    about rrenjet : here:


    https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/


    in the search option put m34


    P.S
    than you can see that they are diverse some are e-m84 some are e-z841
    some were even uploaded to yfull ....
    but arbereshe language is more close to tosk not to ghegs?

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    'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The movement of populations concurred with the collapse of Giorgos Kastriotis State, the Kastrioti-Ottoman war, and the Venetian Ottoman war.
    All of them occurred in North Albania. Plus the Earliest settlement of Arbereshe were done by Kastriotis troops as a Reward for the Services he provided to the King of Napoli. The Date of establishment of the Towns tell us they were formed at the late state of the Venetian-Ottoman war.
    By that time, Venetian Albania was essentially reduced to areas in Montenegro. Highly Unlikely that people from Southern Albania would Migrate, a century after the Ottoman conquest, that high up to find Venetian Ships to travel to Italy. Taking in mind how extended was the migration due to Ottoman barbarity (massacres-enslavement of civilians-selling of women a children to slavery), naturally the population movement followed the war lines, to the last safe heaven which were the Venetian Possessions around lake Shkoder.

    As for Labs, they probably came from are settlement of Gheg militias in the region that mixed with the local population and expanded Islam.
    The high presence of Bektashi, the religion of the Ottoman army, in the Region alludes that the region should have been a military center early on. A theory, yes, but what it isnt a theory is the the different Y-DNA profile between Muslims and non-Muslim Tosk Speakers.
    Or even the Difference between Labs and Chams.
    Labs and Chams have among the highest E-v13 rates(of the same Branch) in Albanian populations but are Radically different in much of the rest of the Haplogroups. At least based on the data to this point. A greater sample may differentiate the profile.So by what we have up to this point it's almost like the local population of each neighboring regions, which would have been fairly similar at some point in the not so long ago history, mixed in the last millennia with different populations each. Chams probably with Slavs, and Labs(aboriginal) with Ghegs.
    labs - Chams.jpg
    But Go Ahead give me another explanation why they two Groups are so different.
    First group is

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrio_Reres

    Cameria samples very small for conclusion, wait we will get more samples. But a northern influence for Lab is known now. Again nothing new. While Reres knights seem from south considering their names. Some of them seem From Laberia.


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    'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    First group is

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrio_Reres

    Cameria samples very small for conclusion, wait we will get more samples. But a northern influence for Lab is known now. Again nothing new. While Reres knights seem from south considering their names. Some of them seem from Laberia.


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    In the Monasteries of Mezzojuso and Cantanzzaro you will find also the names of the families of the knight of Demetrius Reres... some of this names has not changed even today. These names very often show villages and places in Albania.

    Reres expedition (1444 -1448).
    Church Registers of Mezzojuso and Catanzaro:
    B: Barbati, Barci (Barçi), Barcia (Barçia), Bardusci (Bardushi), Barlezi (Barleci), Balla, Barresi,
    Barsetti, Bersi, Bidati, Bilotta, Blasco (Blasko), Boccula (Bokula), Borcì (Borçi o Borshi), Boria,
    Borgia (Borshi), Borgi (Borxhi), Borshi, Braillo, Branciti (Brançiti), Brunarello, Bue, Buba,
    Buccola (Bukola), Burrescia (Burreshia), Burnacasa (Burnakaza), Buschi (Buski ose Bushi).
    C: Cacossa (Kakoza), Cacozza (Kakoca), Coccuzza (Kokuca), Calvaj (Kalvaj), Calfi (Kalfi), Calidaj
    (Kalidaj), Camarda (Kamarda), Camera (Kamera), Camizzi (Kamixi), Candiota (Kandiota),
    Carci (Karçi), Carnesi (Kamezi), Chiara (Kiara), Cicco (Çiko), Cirillo,Ciuglia (Çiulia), Ciulla
    (Çiulla), Celejaro (Çelejaro), Comitascia (Komitashia), Conte (Konte), Costa (Kosta), Costantino
    (Kostantino), Crapisi (Krapizi), Crepsi (Krepsi), Crialesci (Krijaleshi), Criesci (Krieshi), Crisia
    (Krizia), Crispi (Krispi), Cucci (Kuçi), Cuccia (Kuçia), Curtichi (Kurtiki)
    D: Damiano, Despoti, Dorengrichi (Dorengriki), Djanì (Xhani), Dragoti
    F: Ferrante, Ferrara, Figlia (Filia), Foco (Foko), Franzi (Franci).
    G: Ganaci (Ganaçi), Glaviano, Glesci (Gleshi), Glioscia (Gloshia), Gori, Greko, Groppa, Gulemi,
    Golemi, Gugliotta (Gulota), Guzzetta (Guxeta).
    J: Jers, Jessi
    L: Lagresia (Lagrezia), Lala, Lecursìu (Lekurziu), Lesci (Leshi), Lescari (Leskari), Lojacono
    (Lojakono), Lopez, Luca (Luka), Luci (Luçi), Lugli (Luli).
    M: Macaluso (Makaluzo), Mancusi (Mankuzi), Manay (Manaj), Mandalà, Manesi, Manisi, Manisci
    (Manishi), Masi (Mazi), Matranga, Mezzaracchio (Mexarakio), Mirditi, Mauro, Miceli, Minisci
    (Minishi), Musacchia (Muzakia).
    P: Parrino, Parrococchia (Parrokokia), Pachini (Pakini), Petta, Plescia (Pleshia), Pirri, Pravatà,
    Proffera.
    R: Rabalaj, Rafsi, Reppa, Rende, Rennis, Rennes, Rjebalati, Rùbesi
    S: Scariani (Skariani), Sciglia (Skilia), Schirò (Skirò), Sochijpis (Sokjipis), Scurta (Shkurta),
    Schioza (Shkoza), Staffa, Standila, Stanizzo (Stanico), Spata, Stassi, Sugli (Suli).
    T: Teorga, Torga, Trajilla, Trapuzzano (Trapuxano), Thaminiti, Toja, Thana.
    V: Vartusa, Veschio (Veskio), Vonazzo (Vonaco), Vrena, Vuoccola (Vuokola).
    Z: Zacca (Zaka ose Xaka), Zaccheo (Zakeo), Zimbi, Zingana, Zenga etj.


    https://books.google.al/books?id=OdK...zojuso&f=false



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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The movement of populations concurred with the collapse of Giorgos Kastriotis State, the Kastrioti-Ottoman war, and the Venetian Ottoman war.
    All of them occurred in North Albania. Plus the Earliest settlement of Arbereshe were done by Kastriotis troops as a Reward for the Services he provided to the King of Napoli. The Date of establishment of the Towns tell us they were formed at the late state of the Venetian-Ottoman war.
    By that time, Venetian Albania was essentially reduced to areas in Montenegro. Highly Unlikely that people from Southern Albania would Migrate, a century after the Ottoman conquest, that high up to find Venetian Ships to travel to Italy. Taking in mind how extended was the migration due to Ottoman barbarity (massacres-enslavement of civilians-selling of women a children to slavery), naturally the population movement followed the war lines, to the last safe heaven which were the Venetian Possessions around lake Shkoder.

    As for Labs, they probably came from are settlement of Gheg militias in the region that mixed with the local population and expanded Islam.
    The high presence of Bektashi, the religion of the Ottoman army, in the Region alludes that the region should have been a military center early on. A theory, yes, but what it isnt a theory is the the different Y-DNA profile between Muslims and non-Muslim Tosk Speakers.
    Or even the Difference between Labs and Chams.
    Labs and Chams have among the highest E-v13 rates(of the same Branch) in Albanian populations but are Radically different in much of the rest of the Haplogroups. At least based on the data to this point. A greater sample may differentiate the profile.So by what we have up to this point it's almost like the local population of each neighboring regions, which would have been fairly similar at some point in the not so long ago history, mixed in the last millennia with different populations each. Chams probably with Slavs, and Labs(aboriginal) with Ghegs.
    labs - Chams.jpg
    But Go Ahead give me another explanation why they two Groups are so different.
    Beautiful 🤩


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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Sincerely that this creepy psychopath Parapolitikos is still on this forum spreading this filth is why I left this forum.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What an absolute cesspool. Pathetic. Shame on moderation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Sincerely that this creepy psychopath Parapolitikos is still on this forum spreading this filth is why I left this forum.
    You get upset with so little. It is all good fun. It is a lot of noise for nothing really.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    In the Monasteries of Mezzojuso and Cantanzzaro you will find also the names of the families of the knight of Demetrius Reres... some of this names has not changed even today. These names very often show villages and places in Albania.

    Reres expedition (1444 -1448).
    Church Registers of Mezzojuso and Catanzaro:
    B: Barbati, Barci (Barçi), Barcia (Barçia), Bardusci (Bardushi), Barlezi (Barleci), Balla, Barresi,
    Barsetti, Bersi, Bidati, Bilotta, Blasco (Blasko), Boccula (Bokula), Borcì (Borçi o Borshi), Boria,
    Borgia (Borshi), Borgi (Borxhi), Borshi, Braillo, Branciti (Brançiti), Brunarello, Bue, Buba,
    Buccola (Bukola), Burrescia (Burreshia), Burnacasa (Burnakaza), Buschi (Buski ose Bushi).
    C: Cacossa (Kakoza), Cacozza (Kakoca), Coccuzza (Kokuca), Calvaj (Kalvaj), Calfi (Kalfi), Calidaj
    (Kalidaj), Camarda (Kamarda), Camera (Kamera), Camizzi (Kamixi), Candiota (Kandiota),
    Carci (Karçi), Carnesi (Kamezi), Chiara (Kiara), Cicco (Çiko), Cirillo,Ciuglia (Çiulia), Ciulla
    (Çiulla), Celejaro (Çelejaro), Comitascia (Komitashia), Conte (Konte), Costa (Kosta), Costantino
    (Kostantino), Crapisi (Krapizi), Crepsi (Krepsi), Crialesci (Krijaleshi), Criesci (Krieshi), Crisia
    (Krizia), Crispi (Krispi), Cucci (Kuçi), Cuccia (Kuçia), Curtichi (Kurtiki)
    D: Damiano, Despoti, Dorengrichi (Dorengriki), Djanì (Xhani), Dragoti
    F: Ferrante, Ferrara, Figlia (Filia), Foco (Foko), Franzi (Franci).
    G: Ganaci (Ganaçi), Glaviano, Glesci (Gleshi), Glioscia (Gloshia), Gori, Greko, Groppa, Gulemi,
    Golemi, Gugliotta (Gulota), Guzzetta (Guxeta).
    J: Jers, Jessi
    L: Lagresia (Lagrezia), Lala, Lecursìu (Lekurziu), Lesci (Leshi), Lescari (Leskari), Lojacono
    (Lojakono), Lopez, Luca (Luka), Luci (Luçi), Lugli (Luli).
    M: Macaluso (Makaluzo), Mancusi (Mankuzi), Manay (Manaj), Mandalà, Manesi, Manisi, Manisci
    (Manishi), Masi (Mazi), Matranga, Mezzaracchio (Mexarakio), Mirditi, Mauro, Miceli, Minisci
    (Minishi), Musacchia (Muzakia).
    P: Parrino, Parrococchia (Parrokokia), Pachini (Pakini), Petta, Plescia (Pleshia), Pirri, Pravatà,
    Proffera.
    R: Rabalaj, Rafsi, Reppa, Rende, Rennis, Rennes, Rjebalati, Rùbesi
    S: Scariani (Skariani), Sciglia (Skilia), Schirò (Skirò), Sochijpis (Sokjipis), Scurta (Shkurta),
    Schioza (Shkoza), Staffa, Standila, Stanizzo (Stanico), Spata, Stassi, Sugli (Suli).
    T: Teorga, Torga, Trajilla, Trapuzzano (Trapuxano), Thaminiti, Toja, Thana.
    V: Vartusa, Veschio (Veskio), Vonazzo (Vonaco), Vrena, Vuoccola (Vuokola).
    Z: Zacca (Zaka ose Xaka), Zaccheo (Zakeo), Zimbi, Zingana, Zenga etj.


    https://books.google.al/books?id=OdK...zojuso&f=false



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    Very interesting.Someone should place the toponyms on a map. Of course a surname alluding to a region isnt anywhere near being conclusive evidence, but they can draw a general picture of their origins.
    A future genetic study should have in mind those early settlements too, to be separately tested.
    The different migration movements towards Italy were close enough chronologically, but later movements would be mixed bag ones, especially those that came via Peloponnese. Doubt just Albanians were included, yet alone from North Albania solely.
    The first wave though was done voluntarily and they were recruited,logically, from North Albania where Kastrioti's state was based. If those settlements didnt incorporate any later movements of refugees, then they are valuable time capsules of Northern Albanian population before Ottomans ravage and destroyed the area in their war against Kastrioti and later on the Venetians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Sincerely that this creepy psychopath Parapolitikos is still on this forum spreading this filth is why I left this forum.
    I dont know what's creepy or psychopathic about discussing genetics attempting to explain the Data and always providing sufficient evidence to back up the claims, or the very least that the Questions that are raised are valid and not unfounded. Understandably one might be a little sensitive when discussing the genetics of his own Ethnicity, but ultimately the only thing that it is important is whether there is truth in the claims. We should discuss everything in good faith.
    When i firstly put forward my theory, few years back, most Albanians on this forum protested and rejected it, using slurs and attempting to shut down the discussion.
    Now it seems it has been adopted for the most part from the 2 genetic projects in light of the evidence they gathered.

    But here is the question that you should ask yourself; What difference would it make , to you, or to Albania and Albanians in general, if it Ghegs indeed arrive late in the Albanian space?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am aware of this paper who found 3% in albanians from fyrom
    by the way the map you gave before about the arch you see is very correct
    there is indeed 4% e-m123 in european turkey and also burgas province bulgaria ( that could be explained by turks who can left some signiture in bulgaria )


    about rrenjet : here:


    https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/


    in the search option put m34


    P.S
    than you can see that they are diverse some are e-m84 some are e-z841
    some were even uploaded to yfull ....
    but arbereshe language is more close to tosk not to ghegs?
    Thanks! Very appreciated.
    As for E-m123 in the Balkans. My Bet is that its presence in Thrace is old,and probably similarly old is its spread through out Balkans. An alternative explanation could be that it spread in the late antiquities and early medieval times with the (bulgarian) Slavs after they merged with the Thracian population.That theory would explain too why there isnt much in Albanians. The (giant ) problem with that theory is the very high presence in Apulia, and relatively high presence in Calabria and Sicily. On a first glance it seems that a continuum exists from Thrace to Sicily. A deeper clade analyses of Each region's m123 could conclusively affirm if the arch from Thrace to Sicily is a continuum or unrelated(aka Italian m123's source is different than the Balkanic one).
    If the first case is correct, then m123 spread must have occurred probably much earlier than the Classical era. Messapian Colonization of Apulia alone occurred around the start of the first millennia BC, so one can use it as a starting point to guess how old it is in the Balkans.

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    So what is the claim here? That because Arbereshe who have been admixed for 500 years have low L283, then that means that 1400's North Albanians had no L283? But the admixture happened recently? Is this what you are saying?

    Your whole discussion is not in good faith man. Since this whole thread is borderline insanity. I feel Johane there.

    If you want proof to the contrary, if that is indeed your claim. Let me know. I shall provide.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What an absolute cesspool. Pathetic. Shame on moderation.
    How are we supposed to moderate if issues are not reported. Shame on you!

  20. #70
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    How are we supposed to moderate if issues are not reported. Shame on you!
    I reported this user many times because of his filth. He is the reason I left this forum. Cesspool.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    What exactly is the problem here? I don't see anyone violating forum rules except for you, by calling people creepy and psychopaths. Do you just disagree with him? Is he using sophistry? If so, than point to some legitimate study that says otherwise.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What exactly is the problem here? I don't see anyone violating forum rules except for you, by calling people creepy and psychopaths. Do you just disagree with him? Is he using sophistry? If so, than point to some legitimate study that says otherwise.
    Just as I thought, I am sick and tired of people trying to weaponize moderation to settle their disputes. If you disagree with someone, than it is up to you refute them.

    Unless of course they are using false sources, or extremist propaganda; which will need to be verified.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Gjergj, do we know what sort of burial site these samples were found in? IE: What sort of inhumation they were in? Tumulus or something else. If you know the context would you please share?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Thanks! Very appreciated.
    As for E-m123 in the Balkans. My Bet is that its presence in Thrace is old,and probably similarly old is its spread through out Balkans. An alternative explanation could be that it spread in the late antiquities and early medieval times with the (bulgarian) Slavs after they merged with the Thracian population.That theory would explain too why there isnt much in Albanians. The (giant ) problem with that theory is the very high presence in Apulia, and relatively high presence in Calabria and Sicily. On a first glance it seems that a continuum exists from Thrace to Sicily. A deeper clade analyses of Each region's m123 could conclusively affirm if the arch from Thrace to Sicily is a continuum or unrelated(aka Italian m123's source is different than the Balkanic one).
    If the first case is correct, then m123 spread must have occurred probably much earlier than the Classical era. Messapian Colonization of Apulia alone occurred around the start of the first millennia BC, so one can use it as a starting point to guess how old it is in the Balkans.
    the 6% e-m34 in apulia is not in all of this region
    the samples came from a specific area called salento and among the non -greko there
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salento

    from this paper:
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/supp...801?scroll=top

    The samples analysed in this study are from the southern part of the region, in particular from the Salento area, which is the peninsula that separates the Ionian from the Adriatic Sea. Two, samples were collected: one from the general population and one from the Grecìa Salentina (specifically from the municipalities of Calimera, Martano, Castrignano dei Greci, Corigliano d'Otranto, Soleto, Sternatia and Zollino), an area of particular interest since a neo-Greek dialect (Griko) is still spoken here. This peculiar characteristic makes Grecìa Salentina a significant linguistic isolate in the Italian Peninsula.

    p.s
    yes it is important to know the specific branch
    but only wgs can do it and it is expensive for university to do it
    ( that is why the turkish new samples is so much appricated it is an amazing effort)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    the 6% e-m34 in apulia is not in all of this region
    the samples came from a specific area called salento and among the non -greko there
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salento

    from this paper:
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/supp...801?scroll=top

    The samples analysed in this study are from the southern part of the region, in particular from the Salento area, which is the peninsula that separates the Ionian from the Adriatic Sea. Two, samples were collected: one from the general population and one from the Grecìa Salentina (specifically from the municipalities of Calimera, Martano, Castrignano dei Greci, Corigliano d'Otranto, Soleto, Sternatia and Zollino), an area of particular interest since a neo-Greek dialect (Griko) is still spoken here. This peculiar characteristic makes Grecìa Salentina a significant linguistic isolate in the Italian Peninsula.

    p.s
    yes it is important to know the specific branch
    but only wgs can do it and it is expensive for university to do it
    ( that is why the turkish new samples is so much appricated it is an amazing effort)
    Two samples? Kind of not enough to draw any kind of conclusions, right?

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