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Thread: 'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

  1. #76
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    I am not particularly familiar with Y-DNA E-M123 but i associate it strictly with Levant, Natufian/PPNB derived lineages, they must be the original Pre Proto-Semitic people, either them or some E-M78 subclade, no other options.

    But i fail to see the connection in any way with Albanians and Balkans in general. It's more logical to assume Arvanites acquired those lineages in South Italy/Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I am not particularly familiar with Y-DNA E-M123 but i associate it strictly with Levant, Natufian/PPNB derived lineages, they must be the original Pre Proto-Semitic people, either them or some E-M78 subclade, no other options.

    But i fail to see the connection in any way with Albanians and Balkans in general. It's more logical to assume Arvanites acquired those lineages in South Italy/Sicily.
    My personal experience (grew up in a 90% Arvanite town) is that Arvanites did not easily mix with the surrounding populations and that preserving the "fara" was very important to them. The Arbereshe in Southen Italy/Sicily were surrounded by Catholics on top of that.

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    Fallmerayer proposed that 50% of Peloponnese population in 15th century was Albanian. This theory can be refuted with with the lack of J2b in Peloponnese compared to Ghegs. But since J2b came to Ghegs with an alien invasion, Fallmerayer's theory is still up for discussion.

    IMO, Tosks had 15% J2b before the Slavic and other components.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Two samples? Kind of not enough to draw any kind of conclusions, right?
    table S6
    6/102 5.9% e-m34
    i never said that we can draw conclusion i don't think e-m123 is related to messapian tribe
    in my opinion the source is late antiquity roman jewish or byzantine source
    p.s
    yes hawk e-m123 source is levantine
    grandfather e-z830 is natuffian
    Last edited by kingjohn; 14-06-21 at 10:07.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Fallmerayer proposed that 50% of Peloponnese population in 15th century was Albanian. This theory can be refuted with with the lack of J2b in Peloponnese compared to Ghegs. But since J2b came to Ghegs with an alien invasion, Fallmerayer's theory is still up for discussion.
    IMO, Tosks had 15% J2b before the Slavic and other components.
    Elaborate?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Elaborate?
    I was being ironic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I was being ironic.
    Now I see what you did there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    As for Labs, they probably came from are settlement of Gheg militias in the region that mixed with the local population and expanded Islam.
    The high presence of Bektashi, the religion of the Ottoman army, in the Region alludes that the region should have been a military center early on. A theory, yes, but what it isnt a theory is the the different Y-DNA profile between Muslims and non-Muslim Tosk Speakers.
    Or even the Difference between Labs and Chams.
    Labs and Chams have among the highest E-v13 rates(of the same Branch) in Albanian populations but are Radically different in much of the rest of the Haplogroups. At least based on the data to this point. A greater sample may differentiate the profile.So by what we have up to this point it's almost like the local population of each neighboring regions, which would have been fairly similar at some point in the not so long ago history, mixed in the last millennia with different populations each. Chams probably with Slavs, and Labs(aboriginal) with Ghegs.
    Attachment 12732
    But Go Ahead give me another explanation why they two Groups are so different.


    In Light of the Evidence from the Rrenet.com i have to recant or at least greatly minimize the statement above concerning the Labs.
    Labs seem to be mainly of Local ancestry with a small, between 5 and 10%, northern admixture and possibly also substantial Vlach settlement in the region. Not that 5% is a small contribution, it's certainly enough to cause a cultural drift if it's the rulling class(look for instance the case of the Turks).There for my original statement could be still true, but the main problem with the data( as i wrote in an earlier comment), is the Plentiful z2705 compared to the far lower ph1751 in LAberia and in Southern Albania.It's a big nail. Why? Why does the one have multiple times greater presence than the other? Data possibly allude that it arrive with 2(or more) migration movements. Of course ive always considered it to be a possibility but i rejected merely on logical grounds. The implications are tremendous.It means that two populations existed in the Balkans with immense levels of purity all the way to the mid medieval times. Thus i earlier rejected it as a possibility and as i claimed many times ph1751 arrived with z2705. Some data from Rrenet seem to allude that a 2 migration movement could have led to its disperse.
    So it seems there are three main populations that mixed in the area since the medieval times:
    1) The Local south Albanian Population/s (Labs/Greeks/Slavs).
    2) A small Gheg population that probably came very late in the region
    3) A medieval Vlach population that settled in the area

    All of these and many more(like what was the original Make up of Labs and Southern Albanians before the migration events), warrant a separate thread in a big study am preparing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    In Light of the Evidence from the Rrenet.com i have to recant or at least greatly minimize the statement above concerning the Labs.
    Labs seem to be mainly of Local ancestry with a small, between 5 and 10%, northern admixture and possibly also substantial Vlach settlement in the region. Not that 5% is a small contribution, it's certainly enough to cause a cultural drift if it's the rulling class(look for instance the case of the Turks).There for my original statement could be still true, but the main problem with the data( as i wrote in an earlier comment), is the Plentiful z2705 compared to the far lower ph1751 in LAberia and in Southern Albania.It's a big nail. Why? Why does the one have multiple times greater presence than the other? Data possibly allude that it arrive with 2(or more) migration movements. Of course ive always considered it to be a possibility but i rejected merely on logical grounds. The implications are tremendous.It means that two populations existed in the Balkans with immense levels of purity all the way to the mid medieval times. Thus i earlier rejected it as a possibility and as i claimed many times ph1751 arrived with z2705. Some data from Rrenet seem to allude that a 2 migration movement could have led to its disperse.
    So it seems there are three main populations that mixed in the area since the medieval times:
    1) The Local south Albanian Population/s (Labs/Greeks/Slavs).
    2) A small Gheg population that probably came very late in the region
    3) A medieval Vlach population that settled in the area

    All of these and many more(like what was the original Make up of Labs and Southern Albanians before the migration events), warrant a separate thread in a big study am preparing.
    Study? You mean miss reading data from our project.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Fallmerayer proposed that 50% of Peloponnese population in 15th century was Albanian. This theory can be refuted with with the lack of J2b in Peloponnese compared to Ghegs. But since J2b came to Ghegs with an alien invasion, Fallmerayer's theory is still up for discussion.
    IMO, Tosks had 15% J2b before the Slavic and other components.
    In Labs PH1751 is 2 to 3%. J2b may be 9%, but most of it's non ph1751. There much evidence from other haplogroups that a small Gheg population settled in the area. There are many young clades of Northern Albanian populations typical haplogroups. Once you control for all the population migrations since the antiquities, you are left with a population that came from the ''marriage' of a Paleobalkanic E-v13 population and a smaller Anatolian population similar to Mycenaeans. But more about that on the thread about Labs.
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b J2b-L283>Z622>YP91 YP91=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z622>Z615>Z597>Y146400>FGC64043 FGC64043=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045 Y21045=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751 (North Albanian & Kosovo) PH1751=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751 (North Albanian & Kosovo) PH1751=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>Y144394 Y144394=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>Y155546 Y155546=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>Y155546 Y155546=

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    In Labs PH1751 is 2 to 3%. J2b may be 9%, but most of it's non ph1751. There much evidence from other haplogroups that a small Gheg population settled in the area. There are many young clades of Northern Albanian populations typical haplogroups. Once you control for all the population migrations since the antiquities, you are left with a population that came from the ''marriage' of a Paleobalkanic E-v13 population and a smaller Anatolian population similar to Mycenaeans. But more about that on the thread about Labs.
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b J2b-L283>Z622>YP91 YP91=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z622>Z615>Z597>Y146400>FGC64043 FGC64043=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045 Y21045=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751 (North Albanian & Kosovo) PH1751=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751 (North Albanian & Kosovo) PH1751=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>Y144394 Y144394=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>Y155546 Y155546=
    Vlorë Vlorë J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>Y155546 Y155546=
    The Albanian enthogenesis could have been formed with Thracian-like population and a Northern Illyrian-like population enriched with J2b higher in Ghegs than Tosks. Also typical Slavic markers are higher in Tosks correlated with lower J2b so that did play a factor.
    Tosks migrated to Epirus during the 12th century add or take 100 years. I don't know what do you archieve from this baseless hypothesis?
    Ghegs are more northern shifted than Tosks.
    Last edited by ihype02; 23-06-21 at 19:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    The movement of populations concurred with the collapse of Giorgos Kastriotis State, the Kastrioti-Ottoman war, and the Venetian Ottoman war.
    All of them occurred in North Albania. Plus the Earliest settlement of Arbereshe were done by Kastriotis troops as a Reward for the Services he provided to the King of Napoli. The Date of establishment of the Towns tell us they were formed at the late state of the Venetian-Ottoman war.
    By that time, Venetian Albania was essentially reduced to areas in Montenegro. Highly Unlikely that people from Southern Albania would Migrate, a century after the Ottoman conquest, that high up to find Venetian Ships to travel to Italy. Taking in mind how extended was the migration due to Ottoman barbarity (massacres-enslavement of civilians-selling of women a children to slavery), naturally the population movement followed the war lines, to the last safe heaven which were the Venetian Possessions around lake Shkoder.
    As for Labs, they probably came from are settlement of Gheg militias in the region that mixed with the local population and expanded Islam.
    The high presence of Bektashi, the religion of the Ottoman army, in the Region alludes that the region should have been a military center early on. A theory, yes, but what it isnt a theory is the the different Y-DNA profile between Muslims and non-Muslim Tosk Speakers.
    Or even the Difference between Labs and Chams.
    Labs and Chams have among the highest E-v13 rates(of the same Branch) in Albanian populations but are Radically different in much of the rest of the Haplogroups. At least based on the data to this point. A greater sample may differentiate the profile.So by what we have up to this point it's almost like the local population of each neighboring regions, which would have been fairly similar at some point in the not so long ago history, mixed in the last millennia with different populations each. Chams probably with Slavs, and Labs(aboriginal) with Ghegs.
    Attachment 12732
    But Go Ahead give me another explanation why they two Groups are so different.
    Again with more BS nonsense. South albanians and mainly arbereshe migrated not north albanians. I just explained to you that arbereshe were the most southern branch of albanians and since greece was ruined by ottoman they fled to italy. North albanians remained in the mountains of albania and then expanded east to populate the region of kosova

    As for religion i dont give a shit for it, it means nothing when discussing genetics in europe. We dont know the reasons why j2b l283 is strong among north albanians or low amongst south, that is more something for ancient dna. What i can give you is some theories for you to play with -

    1. J2b l283 is native to north albanian region since etruscans lived there before moving to rome/italy
    2. J2b l283 was one of the proto illyrian lines and survived best in north albanian regions
    3. North albanians were mostly wiped out at some point and when they expanded j2b l283 got lucky and became more common
    4. South albanians were mostly wiped out at some point and unluckiest of all was j2b l283 whereas other lines got luckier and expanded
    5. J2b l283 was a strong roman line and expanded in north albania as a "founder effect" due to many native men being wiped out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Italians dont have higher E-m123 though than the ares around North Albania, which if we believe the Slavicist narrative they are mainly Slavic in origins.So if it's 3% now in FYROM, it should have been 9% or more originally in the native population with whom the incoming Slavs mixed with. One Study gives a rate of 3% in FYROMIAN Albanians, but of course by my theory, they would be too mixed local Dardanian people with incoming Ghegs.

    Attachment 12733
    Plus the Arbereshe settlements were mostly homogenous new settlements. Built by and for Arbereshe. At least originally. Over time some intermixing with near by populations must have occurred but i doubt it was that severe.
    Additionally the idea that 3-4 different towns (used in the study for Arbereshe), hundreds of km apart, found each a streak of extremely high E-m123 in Native Italians(should have been more than 20% in native italian at a 50% intermixing rate for Arbereshe) , so each town can elevate their E-m123 at the similar levels with each other,it is astronomically improbable.

    Eitherway, where can we see the detailed subclade data of the rrenjet project ?
    What are you on about here? E-m123 is only 1.3% in north albanians, it is definitely higher in italians especially south italians. In south albanians it is only 0.7% which proves that it is foreign and arbereshe had mix of foreign y dna. And just like that this discussion is now over because i have laid out facts for each false claim you have made

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The Albanian enthogenesis could have been formed with Thracian-like population and a Northern Illyrian-like population enriched with J2b higher in Ghegs than Tosks. Also typical Slavic markers are higher in Tosks correlated with lower J2b so that did play a factor.
    Tosks migrated to Epirus during the 12th century add or take 100 years. I don't know what do you archieve from this baseless hypothesis?
    Ghegs are more northern shifted than Tosks.
    Thracians were often described as blue eyed redheads - i seriously doubt their main line was v13 which came through north africa/west asia. I would say they were likely r1a people or i-m223 which actually peaks in romania. If not then r1b is possible

    Also thracians were before south slavs in south europe, south slavs wiped out most thracians and changed their language

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    What are you on about here? E-m123 is only 1.3% in north albanians, it is definitely higher in italians especially south italians. In south albanians it is only 0.7% which proves that it is foreign and arbereshe had mix of foreign y dna. And just like that this discussion is now over because i have laid out facts for each false claim you have made
    But extremely diverse the e-m84 branches in berat ( e-pf6751, e-fgc18401)
    Share a common ancestor with the e-y4972 cases
    From kukes ( tested by german company
    y sequence)
    15,000 years ago...
    Last edited by kingjohn; 29-06-21 at 14:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Thracians were often described as blue eyed redheads - i seriously doubt their main line was v13 which came through north africa/west asia. I would say they were likely r1a people or i-m223 which actually peaks in romania. If not then r1b is possible
    Also thracians were before south slavs in south europe, south slavs wiped out most thracians and changed their language
    Thracians were mostly Mediterranid anthropologically. This has been determined from cranial analysis. This doesn't bode well for them to have been mostly blue eyed red heads. All Thracians of Babadag Psenichevo culture were E-V13 and they were quite Southern autosomally, far more than Illyrians.

    And actually prior to E-V13 expansion, people populating Thrace were more Northern but they were not Thracian. E-V13 Thracians picked up their language though from R-Z280 clades of Gava culture. And these were more Northern Hallstat-Urnfield autosomally.

    Also Urnfielders in Illyrian territories must have been same. So the Illyrian scepctrum looks to have been populated by the North Italian-like J-L283 people with additional R-L51 migrants who were Central European like.

    I-M223 is 2.47 % in Romania, and many of its clades are Germanic. there are Paleobalkan clades of I-M223 but they are mostly Luwian/Anatolian as they totally dominated the Ezero culture.

    All Romanian R1a thus far has been either Slavic (most) or Turkic/Alanic (few). the clade which was associated with the early proto-Thracian Gava culture judging by current samples has not left traces there thus far.

    And why are you bringing North Africa/West Asia here?? E-V13 arrived from West Asia as part of Neolithic Expansion 8000 years ago. They were autosomally almost 100 % Barcin derived. Or E-L618, V13 mutation occurring in Europe once they already arrived. E-V13 occurred most likely in early Cardial/Danilo culture.

    This is where most E-V13 people lived

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvar_culture

    You blabbering nonsense that E-V13 arrived from Anatolia in Bronze Age with R-Z2103 is just that: blabbering nonsense. Something so many internet fora Albanians (including many V13+) seem to excel at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Also thracians were before south slavs in south europe, south slavs wiped out most thracians and changed their language
    Bessian language is attested as alive in 5th century AD. No such late attestation exists for the Illyrian language. In fact looking at the Illyrian onomastic traces, it can be seen that some resisted romanization, and that this lasted until 2nd century AD. By the 4th, 5th century vast majority of Illyrians are romanized. Albanians are first mentioned exactly 1000 years ago. 200 years and earlier ago no Albanian knew what the "Illyrian" or "Thracian" was.

    It could be that the Bessi of Gottfried Schramm mostly carried E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You blabbering nonsense that E-V13 arrived from Anatolia in Bronze Age with R-Z2103 is just that:
    And of course in EBA Anatolian autosomal profile was totally different from the Neolithic one Albanians and other Southern Euros cluster with. J2a expansion brought more CHG, IN ancestry so had E-v13 arrived in Bronze Age with Z2103 from there, Albanians would have shown affinity with pre Seljuk Anatolian natives, such as Cappadocian Greeks.. And they would have shown significant genetic overlap with Turks, far more than with Greeks. You want a forum of blabbers, go for it.

    This Parapolitikos dude, I'd have just erased his account long ago if I was charge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Again with more BS nonsense. South albanians and mainly arbereshe migrated not north albanians. I just explained to you that arbereshe were the most southern branch of albanians and since greece was ruined by ottoman they fled to italy. North albanians remained in the mountains of albania and then expanded east to populate the region of kosova
    As for religion i dont give a shit for it, it means nothing when discussing genetics in europe. We dont know the reasons why j2b l283 is strong among north albanians or low amongst south, that is more something for ancient dna. What i can give you is some theories for you to play with -
    1. J2b l283 is native to north albanian region since etruscans lived there before moving to rome/italy
    2. J2b l283 was one of the proto illyrian lines and survived best in north albanian regions
    3. North albanians were mostly wiped out at some point and when they expanded j2b l283 got lucky and became more common
    4. South albanians were mostly wiped out at some point and unluckiest of all was j2b l283 whereas other lines got luckier and expanded
    5. J2b l283 was a strong roman line and expanded in north albania as a "founder effect" due to many native men being wiped out
    Ghegs spilling over from some remote mountain region somewhere in the border area between Montenegro-Albania-Kosovo seems correct based on this map i ve made using the data from rrenjet.com
    Note that the Coastal Northern Albania seems to have also low Ph1751 rates. My guess they built up as you move towards the interior and among the Muslim population of the Regions(and not the Catholics). But that's is a hypothesis, and to be verified more data needed and a classification of the data across religious lines, although one shouldnt expect a black and white division between Muslim and Catholics. Lines Blured due to crossovers from one religion to another. Obviously Muslims couldn't convert to Christianity during the Ottoman period, but there were some Gheg herders nomads that accepted Catholicism earlier on, before the final ottoman conquest and retained their faith to this day. Thus Catholicism spread to Kosovo too and even to this day, 5 to 10% of Kosovars are Catholics or Cryptocatholics.
    ph1751 per region.jpg

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a more detailed map about the regional rates of PH1751 in North Albania, based on the data from rrenjet.com. I think it's clear where PH1751 came from, and it seems to validate my long standing claim about the medieval homeland of Ghegs. Take a note how tiny is the amount of PH1751 in the areas where Catholics are the majority(or were traditionally stronghold of Catholicism as today there plenty of Muslims living there too).
    Those rates seem to go hand in hand with the Arbereshe results.
    ph1751 per region 2 1.jpg

    They seem to explain beautifully the spread of accents and religions too
    religio accents2.jpg

    P.S. the distance between lowlands Shkoder and the highlands of Tropoje is less than 30 km but this Map partly explains how the tribes remained for extended period of time Isolated. But only partly.
    A-map-of-the-Albanian-Alps.jpg

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    ^Mirdite has a higher J2b (20%) than many Muslim regions. Mirdite is 100% Catholic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Again with more BS nonsense. South albanians and mainly arbereshe migrated not north albanians. I just explained to you that arbereshe were the most southern branch of albanians and since greece was ruined by ottoman they fled to italy. North albanians remained in the mountains of albania and then expanded east to populate the region of kosova

    As for religion i dont give a shit for it, it means nothing when discussing genetics in europe. We dont know the reasons why j2b l283 is strong among north albanians or low amongst south, that is more something for ancient dna. What i can give you is some theories for you to play with -

    1. J2b l283 is native to north albanian region since etruscans lived there before moving to rome/italy
    2. J2b l283 was one of the proto illyrian lines and survived best in north albanian regions
    3. North albanians were mostly wiped out at some point and when they expanded j2b l283 got lucky and became more common
    4. South albanians were mostly wiped out at some point and unluckiest of all was j2b l283 whereas other lines got luckier and expanded
    5. J2b l283 was a strong roman line and expanded in north albania as a "founder effect" due to many native men being wiped out
    Why are so many of your theories vague and based on the concept of luck and not specific factors or events that might have resulted in them?

  23. #98
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^Mirdite has a higher J2b (20%) than many Muslim regions. Mirdite is 100% Catholic.
    Pretty much. This guys own maps contradict what he claims. His analysis is quite poor. Furthermore, I doubt he has any idea how religion functions with Albanians. He is stuck on the Greek concept of religion, where religion is almost equivalent with ethnicity. With Albanians religion historically was a tool to resist assimilation, avoid taxes, and create macro alliances abroad...

    Furthermore, only God knows why he is stuck at ph1751, when that is just a branch of L283, of which Albanians have interregional TMRCAs going back 4k years...

    Pitiful.

    I wish I did not have to get involved with this, but this nutcase might mislead people actually trying to research stuff.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Thracians were mostly Mediterranid anthropologically. This has been determined from cranial analysis. This doesn't bode well for them to have been mostly blue eyed red heads. All Thracians of Babadag Psenichevo culture were E-V13 and they were quite Southern autosomally, far more than Illyrians.
    And actually prior to E-V13 expansion, people populating Thrace were more Northern but they were not Thracian. E-V13 Thracians picked up their language though from R-Z280 clades of Gava culture. And these were more Northern Hallstat-Urnfield autosomally.
    Also Urnfielders in Illyrian territories must have been same. So the Illyrian scepctrum looks to have been populated by the North Italian-like J-L283 people with additional R-L51 migrants who were Central European like.
    I-M223 is 2.47 % in Romania, and many of its clades are Germanic. there are Paleobalkan clades of I-M223 but they are mostly Luwian/Anatolian as they totally dominated the Ezero culture.
    All Romanian R1a thus far has been either Slavic (most) or Turkic/Alanic (few). the clade which was associated with the early proto-Thracian Gava culture judging by current samples has not left traces there thus far.
    And why are you bringing North Africa/West Asia here?? E-V13 arrived from West Asia as part of Neolithic Expansion 8000 years ago. They were autosomally almost 100 % Barcin derived. Or E-L618, V13 mutation occurring in Europe once they already arrived. E-V13 occurred most likely in early Cardial/Danilo culture.
    This is where most E-V13 people lived
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvar_culture
    You blabbering nonsense that E-V13 arrived from Anatolia in Bronze Age with R-Z2103 is just that: blabbering nonsense. Something so many internet fora Albanians (including many V13+) seem to excel at.
    Wrong on all accounts, thracians were blue eyed redheads - they may have carried a hint of v13 but never 100%. They were r1a, i2a2 or r1b people - those small percentages you found in romanians/bulgarians today are what remains of the thracians as they were wiped out by romans and south slavs

    The fact that v13 was so early in europe means thracians had zero chance being 100% v13 and since it came through anatolia it also means v13 carried 0% blue eyed genes

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Ghegs spilling over from some remote mountain region somewhere in the border area between Montenegro-Albania-Kosovo seems correct based on this map i ve made using the data from rrenjet.com
    Note that the Coastal Northern Albania seems to have also low Ph1751 rates. My guess they built up as you move towards the interior and among the Muslim population of the Regions(and not the Catholics). But that's is a hypothesis, and to be verified more data needed and a classification of the data across religious lines, although one shouldnt expect a black and white division between Muslim and Catholics. Lines Blured due to crossovers from one religion to another. Obviously Muslims couldn't convert to Christianity during the Ottoman period, but there were some Gheg herders nomads that accepted Catholicism earlier on, before the final ottoman conquest and retained their faith to this day. Thus Catholicism spread to Kosovo too and even to this day, 5 to 10% of Kosovars are Catholics or Cryptocatholics.
    ph1751 per region.jpg
    No one gives a shit about religion you maniac. Youve already been shut down bringing up arbereshe and saying em123 is native to albanians when it is less than 1% in tosks and arbereshe were even more south than tosks. Em123 is likely greek or italian (but originally probably jewish)

    Were talking about genetics here not garbage nonsense like religion

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