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Thread: 'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Pretty much. This guys own maps contradict what he claims. His analysis is quite poor. Furthermore, I doubt he has any idea how religion functions with Albanians. He is stuck on the Greek concept of religion, where religion is almost equivalent with ethnicity. With Albanians religion historically was a tool to resist assimilation, avoid taxes, and create macro alliances abroad...

    Furthermore, only God knows why he is stuck at ph1751, when that is just a branch of L283, of which Albanians have interregional TMRCAs going back 4k years...

    Pitiful.

    I wish I did not have to get involved with this, but this nutcase might mislead people actually trying to research stuff.
    The guy is certainly upset at how mixed greece is and attempting to troll other people

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    But extremely diverse the e-m84 branches in berat ( e-pf6751, e-fgc18401)
    Share a common ancestor with the e-y4972 cases
    From kukes ( tested by german company
    y sequence)
    15,000 years ago...
    Dont know anything about 15,000 years ago but berat had a jewish community for hundreds of years so the diversity in em84 are from them. Also the only jewish museum in albania was built in berat due to the jewish history (solomon museum)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Dont know anything about 15,000 years ago but berat had a jewish community for hundreds of years so the diversity in em84 are from them. Also the only jewish museum in albania was built in berat due to the jewish history (solomon museum)
    I am not denaying a jewish source for e-m84
    Or e-L791 in albania, it is very likely but it also possible some of it could come from ottoman source...

    P.s
    Either way you are correct that e-m123 is rare in albania and more present in south italy
    If i look by %🤔
    And it is much more likely that arbereshe aquired it in south italy rather than in albania
    Last edited by kingjohn; 03-07-21 at 20:23.
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I am not denaying a jewish source for e-m84
    Or e-L791 in albania, it is very likely but it also possible some of it could come from ottoman source...
    P.s
    Either way you are correct that e-m123 is rare in albania and more present in south italy
    If i look by %🤔
    And it is much more likely that arbereshe aquired it in south italy rather than in albania
    E-l791 looks very old in albania so its likely roman or possibly early jewish
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L791/

    E-m84 looks bit more recent in albania, could be either jewish or roman or ottoman or something else, hard to tell without dna from all over the world
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M84/

    Looks like pheonicians had e-m84

    The classical antiquity brought new waves of colonisation across the Mediterranean. The first colonists were Phoenicians, who came from present-day Lebanon and the Tartus province of Syria. The Phoenicians possessed a variety of paternal lineages reflecting the complex ancient history of the Middle East. One of them was E-M34 (notably Levantine clades like Y15558 and Z21421), which makes up about 15% of modern Lebanese Y-DNA, but was probably higher before the Greek, Roman, Arabic, Byzantine, medieval crusader and Ottoman occupations altered the local gene pool. E-M34 is the main Middle Eastern variety of E1b1b and is thought to have arrived with the Proto-Semitic people in the Late Copper to Early Bronze Age. The Phoenicians would have spread E-M34 to Cyprus, Malta, Sicily, Sardinia, Ibiza and southern Iberia.

    The ancient Greeks contributed to the rediffusion of more E-M34 (and E-V13) around places such as Cyprus, Sicily, southern Italy, Liguria, Provence, eastern Spain, and basically all part of the Classical ancient Greek world. Alexander's conquest of the Middle East would have taken Greek male lineages much further afield, perhaps as far as Afghanistan and Pakistan, although only at trace frequencies. The Greeks remained in control of the Middle East until the Roman conquest, then regained influence over the region during the Byzantine period. It is likely that most E-V13 in the Middle East is ultimately of Greek or Roman origin, although some might have come with Bronze Age Indo-European migrations via Iran.

    The Etruscans, who may have come from western Anatolia, could have brought E-M34 to central Italy, which would then have been assimilated by the Romans. Migrations within the Roman Empire probably played a role, although a minor one, in the redistribution of E1b1b in Europe. The biggest genetic impact of the Romans/Italians outside of Italy appears to have been in Gaul (modern France, Belgium, southern Germany and Switzerland), probably because this was the closest region to Italy using the well-developed Roman road network (actually inherited from the Gauls themselves)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Wrong on all accounts, thracians were blue eyed redheads - they may have carried a hint of v13 but never 100%.

    No they were not. They may have had hint of it, but Thracians were by anthropological material mostly Mediterranean and very different to some of their neighbors. What some accounts say is secondary to the anthropological material examined. And ***mentation is selection driven and can change.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    They were r1a, i2a2 or r1b people - those small percentages you found in romanians/bulgarians today

    I2a2 is a Paleo-Euopean hg, most of its clades are Germanic and Paleobalkan clades, very few, are Luwian-Anatolian. R1b has nothing to do with Thracians at all, and all Romanian/Bulgarian R1a is non-Thracian, thus far.

    R-M269 is 6500 years old also, you seem to be lumping all R1b into one, you clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    are what remains of the thracians as they were wiped out by romans and south slavs

    Thracian Bessoi kept their language until 5th century AD and according to archeological evidence Bessi survived the Slavic incursion in Serbian/Bulgarian border area. There is no firm archeological-linguistic evidence of any Illyrians surviving.


    Romans went through the Illyrians like they were nothing. Illyrians posed very little threat to the Romans.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    The fact that v13 was so early in europe means thracians had zero chance being 100% v13 and since it came through anatolia it also means v13 carried 0% blue eyed genes

    Those were V13 7000 years ago same as G2a carriers for the most part, but although similar in many respects they were not the same as the BA/IA population. Of course no Thracians and any Indoeuropeans were originally V13, or any other non-Steppe hg. Original Thracians were a R-Z280 clade but spreaders of the language were mostly V13.


    Illyrians had more blue/green-eyed people than IA Thracians


    Thracian EIA sample is alot more to the Southeast than the Illyrian EIA/LBA sample. Nuff said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Pretty much. This guys own maps contradict what he claims. His analysis is quite poor. Furthermore, I doubt he has any idea how religion functions with Albanians. He is stuck on the Greek concept of religion, where religion is almost equivalent with ethnicity. With Albanians religion historically was a tool to resist assimilation, avoid taxes, and create macro alliances abroad...

    Furthermore, only God knows why he is stuck at ph1751, when that is just a branch of L283, of which Albanians have interregional TMRCAs going back 4k years...

    Pitiful.

    I wish I did not have to get involved with this, but this nutcase might mislead people actually trying to research stuff.
    I agree with you, I don't think religion has much correlation. I've always noticed that mountainous highlands might seem to correlate with increased J-L283. This of course being a common trend when populations get pushed back to the highlands from foreign invaders, the same trend happens in the alps. However, these regions are often less developed and therefore less likely to test y-dna, possibly resulting in skewed results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No they were not. They may have had hint of it, but Thracians were by anthropological material mostly Mediterranean and very different to some of their neighbors. What some accounts say is secondary to the anthropological material examined. And ***mentation is selection driven and can change.
    I2a2 is a Paleo-Euopean hg, most of its clades are Germanic and Paleobalkan clades, very few, are Luwian-Anatolian. R1b has nothing to do with Thracians at all, and all Romanian/Bulgarian R1a is non-Thracian, thus far.
    R-M269 is 6500 years old also, you seem to be lumping all R1b into one, you clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
    Thracian Bessoi kept their language until 5th century AD and according to archeological evidence Bessi survived the Slavic incursion in Serbian/Bulgarian border area. There is no firm archeological-linguistic evidence of any Illyrians surviving.
    Romans went through the Illyrians like they were nothing. Illyrians posed very little threat to the Romans.
    Those were V13 7000 years ago same as G2a carriers for the most part, but although similar in many respects they were not the same as the BA/IA population. Of course no Thracians and any Indoeuropeans were originally V13, or any other non-Steppe hg. Original Thracians were a R-Z280 clade but spreaders of the language were mostly V13.
    Illyrians had more blue/green-eyed people than IA Thracians
    Thracian EIA sample is alot more to the Southeast than the Illyrian EIA/LBA sample. Nuff said.
    Absolute nonsense on all accounts once again. There is zero written evidence of illyrian language or having blue eyes. Thracians were always described as blue eyed redheads i will take written accounts over your speculative nonsense. How can you completely deny thracians being r1b and r1a without evidence? As for illyrians being nothing to romans, no one was - they made little work of the british and changed the whole landscape of britain, they still have roman roads today dont forget.

    Romans changed the language of thracians into latin as proven today by romanians, it is a latin language. During the reign of Domitian the Dacians even wiped out a Roman legion. This focused Rome on revenge and launched the Dacian Wars of 101–02 AD and 105–06. It is estimated emperor Trajan used upwards of 200,000 troops. Basically, this wasn’t just about conquest, but blatant genocide.

    According to some texts such as -
    Scholia in Lucianum: Icaromenippos; 24/16 (page 104):
    “The Getae, a barbarian and vigorous people who rising against the Romans and humiliating them such as to compel them to pay a tribute, were later, at the time of king Decebal, destroyed by Trajan in such a way that their entire people was reduced to forty men as Kriton tells in the Getica.”

    Kriton took part in the campaigns of Trajan. He was an eyewitness how romans eradicated dacians.

    This is kinda disgusting but -
    The Roman people hailed Trajan's triumph in Dacia with the longest and most expensive celebration in their history, financed by a part of the gold taken from the Dacians.[189] For his triumph, Trajan gave a 123-day festival (ludi) of celebration, in which approximately 11,000 animals were slaughtered and 11,000 gladiators fought in combats. This surpassed Emperor Titus's celebration in AD 70, when a 100-day festival included 3,000 gladiators and 5,000 to 9,000 wild animals.

    Then the now romanians managed to hold onto that language from invading the south slavs but half of their y dna is now south slavic and the other southern thracians (bulgarians) lost both their language and y dna to south slavs.

    Thracian language and dna was almost wiped out in eastern europe whereas in the west balkans there is plenty of ancient y dna that has nothing to do with south slavs. In west balkans you find albanian language and greek - both have nothing to do with south slavs and albanian has nothing to do with latin language tree

    The romans likely used illyrians in their army early on and spread dna across europe including in east europe where the thracians were but we will only find proof with ancient dna
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 05-07-21 at 16:43.

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    Not only did the ancient greeks say thracians were blue eyed redheads but so did the romans -

    Here is the roman description of dacians - as blue eyed blonde/redheads - https://www.persee.fr/doc/hiper_2284...17_num_4_1_923

    Some more descriptions -

    "Dacians are represented in the statues surmounting the Arch of Constantine and on Trajan's Column.[1] The artist of the Column took some care to depict, in his opinion, a variety of Dacian people—from high-ranking men, women, and children to the near-savage. Although the artist looked to models in Hellenistic art for some body types and compositions, he does not represent the Dacians as generic barbarians.[141]

    Classical authors applied a generalized stereotype when describing the "barbarians"—Celts, Scythians, Thracians—inhabiting the regions to the north of the Greek world.[142] In accordance with this stereotype, all these peoples are described, in sharp contrast to the "civilized" Greeks, as being much taller, their skin lighter and with straight light-coloured hair and blue eyes.[142] For instance, Aristotle wrote that "the Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for both they themselves and the environing air are moist.

    Here is a roman depiction of 2 giant dacian warriors - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...siMetope34.jpg

    So not only were they blue eyed redheads but they were also tall. Now are you calling the ancient greeks and great romans liars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Not only did the ancient greeks say thracians were blue eyed redheads but so did the romans -
    Here is the roman description of dacians - as blue eyed blonde/redheads - https://www.persee.fr/doc/hiper_2284...17_num_4_1_923
    Some more descriptions -
    "Dacians are represented in the statues surmounting the Arch of Constantine and on Trajan's Column.[1] The artist of the Column took some care to depict, in his opinion, a variety of Dacian people—from high-ranking men, women, and children to the near-savage. Although the artist looked to models in Hellenistic art for some body types and compositions, he does not represent the Dacians as generic barbarians.[141]
    Classical authors applied a generalized stereotype when describing the "barbarians"—Celts, Scythians, Thracians—inhabiting the regions to the north of the Greek world.[142] In accordance with this stereotype, all these peoples are described, in sharp contrast to the "civilized" Greeks, as being much taller, their skin lighter and with straight light-coloured hair and blue eyes.[142] For instance, Aristotle wrote that "the Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for both they themselves and the environing air are moist.
    Here is a roman depiction of 2 giant dacian warriors - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...siMetope34.jpg
    So not only were they blue eyed redheads but they were also tall. Now are you calling the ancient greeks and great romans liars?
    I would take what Herodotus says with a grain of salt. He is not a historian in the strict sense of the word. He is more what I would call a travelogue writer. He takes down what the natives and other travelers told him. There is no way he travelled to all the places he mentions and met and investigated all of what he was told. Same with other Greek and Roman authors. Unless we corroborate their writings with archaeological and genetic information we have to be a bit skeptical about their claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Absolute nonsense on all accounts once again. There is zero written evidence of illyrian language or having blue eyes. Thracians were always described as blue eyed redheads i will take written accounts over your speculative nonsense. How can you completely deny thracians being r1b and r1a without evidence? As for illyrians being nothing to romans, no one was - they made little work of the british and changed the whole landscape of britain, they still have roman roads today dont forget.
    Romans changed the language of thracians into latin as proven today by romanians, it is a latin language. During the reign of Domitian the Dacians even wiped out a Roman legion. This focused Rome on revenge and launched the Dacian Wars of 101–02 AD and 105–06. It is estimated emperor Trajan used upwards of 200,000 troops. Basically, this wasn’t just about conquest, but blatant genocide.
    According to some texts such as -
    Scholia in Lucianum: Icaromenippos; 24/16 (page 104):
    “The Getae, a barbarian and vigorous people who rising against the Romans and humiliating them such as to compel them to pay a tribute, were later, at the time of king Decebal, destroyed by Trajan in such a way that their entire people was reduced to forty men as Kriton tells in the Getica.”
    Kriton took part in the campaigns of Trajan. He was an eyewitness how romans eradicated dacians.
    This is kinda disgusting but -
    The Roman people hailed Trajan's triumph in Dacia with the longest and most expensive celebration in their history, financed by a part of the gold taken from the Dacians.[189] For his triumph, Trajan gave a 123-day festival (ludi) of celebration, in which approximately 11,000 animals were slaughtered and 11,000 gladiators fought in combats. This surpassed Emperor Titus's celebration in AD 70, when a 100-day festival included 3,000 gladiators and 5,000 to 9,000 wild animals.
    Then the now romanians managed to hold onto that language from invading the south slavs but half of their y dna is now south slavic and the other southern thracians (bulgarians) lost both their language and y dna to south slavs.
    Thracian language and dna was almost wiped out in eastern europe whereas in the west balkans there is plenty of ancient y dna that has nothing to do with south slavs. In west balkans you find albanian language and greek - both have nothing to do with south slavs and albanian has nothing to do with latin language tree
    The romans likely used illyrians in their army early on and spread dna across europe including in east europe where the thracians were but we will only find proof with ancient dna

    In regards to ancient language of the Thracian before becoming Latin based is something that has not been resolved

    In regards to Illyrians ......they began being mixed with Celts from southern Germany , from the Halstatt culture in Noricum ( east Austria ) all the way to the celtic settling in Serbia ...the Scordisci
    https://www.academia.edu/10763789/On...ia_280_279_BC_

    then we have the great Illyrian revolt which the Romans have never said that there where Illyrians, but stated different tribes in Illricum

    the "illyrian" tribes involved in the 4 year long revolt as per roman census and Pliny

    To the Romans , these tribes where basically Dalmatians and pannonians
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Not only did the ancient greeks say thracians were blue eyed redheads but so did the romans -
    Here is the roman description of dacians - as blue eyed blonde/redheads - https://www.persee.fr/doc/hiper_2284...17_num_4_1_923
    Some more descriptions -
    "Dacians are represented in the statues surmounting the Arch of Constantine and on Trajan's Column.[1] The artist of the Column took some care to depict, in his opinion, a variety of Dacian people—from high-ranking men, women, and children to the near-savage. Although the artist looked to models in Hellenistic art for some body types and compositions, he does not represent the Dacians as generic barbarians.[141]
    Classical authors applied a generalized stereotype when describing the "barbarians"—Celts, Scythians, Thracians—inhabiting the regions to the north of the Greek world.[142] In accordance with this stereotype, all these peoples are described, in sharp contrast to the "civilized" Greeks, as being much taller, their skin lighter and with straight light-coloured hair and blue eyes.[142] For instance, Aristotle wrote that "the Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for both they themselves and the environing air are moist.
    Here is a roman depiction of 2 giant dacian warriors - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...siMetope34.jpg
    So not only were they blue eyed redheads but they were also tall. Now are you calling the ancient greeks and great romans liars?

    one consensus why the greeks called there northern neighbours barbarians was due to these Illyrians, Thracians and Scythians having women in their armies as warriors ..........so far, genetic scholars have over 300+ female warrior graves that have been unearthed from scythia on the black sea through to thracian lands ( bulgaria , romania )

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    I have noticed a result I-A8689 (I2a) from a Bicaku-family member (from Elbasan), is there any more information about that..?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    In regards to ancient language of the Thracian before becoming Latin based is something that has not been resolved

    In regards to Illyrians ......they began being mixed with Celts from southern Germany , from the Halstatt culture in Noricum ( east Austria ) all the way to the celtic settling in Serbia ...the Scordisci
    https://www.academia.edu/10763789/On...ia_280_279_BC_

    then we have the great Illyrian revolt which the Romans have never said that there where Illyrians, but stated different tribes in Illricum

    the "illyrian" tribes involved in the 4 year long revolt as per roman census and Pliny

    To the Romans , these tribes where basically Dalmatians and pannonians
    Not a hell of a lot of inhabitants in all of Illyria, were there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Not a hell of a lot of inhabitants in all of Illyria, were there?

    those numbers , like all roman census in their empire is the populace for men only who could bear arms....age range was 16 to 45 .................it does not count children, women and the very old

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    those numbers , like all roman census in their empire is the populace for men only who could bear arms....age range was 16 to 45 .................it does not count children, women and the very old
    OK multiply by 5 still not a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    OK multiply by 5 still not a lot.

    What do you think the population should


    study.....the mediterraenean by Fernand Braudel has the population of Italy in 1430 as 14M ....Germany 16M......England 4M and many others ...........going by these numbers , the population at the time of imperial Rome and its empire would not be great

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Not only did the ancient greeks say thracians were blue eyed redheads but so did the romans -

    Here is the roman description of dacians - as blue eyed blonde/redheads -

    Some more descriptions -

    "Dacians are represented in the statues surmounting the Arch of Constantine and on Trajan's Column.[1] The artist of the Column took some care to depict, in his opinion, a variety of Dacian people—from high-ranking men, women, and children to the near-savage. Although the artist looked to models in Hellenistic art for some body types and compositions, he does not represent the Dacians as generic barbarians.[141]

    Classical authors applied a generalized stereotype when describing the "barbarians"—Celts, Scythians, Thracians—inhabiting the regions to the north of the Greek world.[142] In accordance with this stereotype, all these peoples are described, in sharp contrast to the "civilized" Greeks, as being much taller, their skin lighter and with straight light-coloured hair and blue eyes.[142] For instance, Aristotle wrote that "the Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for both they themselves and the environing air are moist.

    Here is a roman depiction of 2 giant dacian warriors -

    So not only were they blue eyed redheads but they were also tall. Now are you calling the ancient greeks and great romans liars?
    R1b appears to correlate with red hair so you would have to first prove it to be the dominant Y DNA of the Dacians to even somewhat support the Roman stories. Also, the present population of red hair in Europe is not significant to any degree in the assumed Dacian region relative to other areas (all of the present dominant redhead regions in Europe are R1b dominated, including the unique redhead area in Russia which is "coincidentally" an R1b island surrounded by R1a).

    Sure, maybe they were a bit taller, fairer skin, blue eyes, as I believe it fits present populations found in the region but that may be due to slavic invasion dominance afterwards. You also need to consider that the Romans and Greeks would often label colours differently, then we do today. That's kinda one of the points why we call the orange hair redheads instead of orange-heads today, it's because of drift of colour definitions. It's likely the stories were speaking of brownish hair colors as red under their definition of the color red.

    But if you wanted to find out for certain than get a raw dna file of an ancient Dacian and check Chromosome 5 and 15 for gene mutations of rs1426654 and rs16891982 for fair skin & rs12913832 mutation for blue eyes, and for red hair you can check the chromosome 16 MC1R Gene for variant mutations on markers: rs1805007, rs1805008, and i3002507. Do we not have Dacian autosomal dna to check?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    ^Mirdite has a higher J2b (20%) than many Muslim regions. Mirdite is 100% Catholic.
    I don't know if the region is indeed 100% Catholic,, but irrespective their oral traditions testify that they arrive in the region in the 18th century. In general almost none gheg tribe is mentioned in any historical record before the 15th century. Maybe a couple near the northern borders get mentioned by Venetians. Either way most Gheg tribes were originally nominally Catholic. Conversion to Islam was equally nominal, and the Islamic privilages had more to do with it than genuine conversions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    What are you on about here? E-m123 is only 1.3% in north albanians, it is definitely higher in italians especially south italians. In south albanians it is only 0.7% which proves that it is foreign and arbereshe had mix of foreign y dna. And just like that this discussion is now over because i have laid out facts for each false claim you have made
    E-m123 is at rate of 10% in Kukes district
    7-8% in the Elbasan district
    4-5% in the Tirana district
    6% in Berat region and 2 to 3% in 2-3 more districts on the border with FYROM.
    If it is native to the region, and we have no reason to believe eitherwise taking in mind it has high presence in all the states east of Albania, then the prevelance of the haplogroup would have been at least double before the migration of the Slavs and vlachs started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I would take what Herodotus says with a grain of salt. He is not a historian in the strict sense of the word. He is more what I would call a travelogue writer. He takes down what the natives and other travelers told him. There is no way he travelled to all the places he mentions and met and investigated all of what he was told. Same with other Greek and Roman authors. Unless we corroborate their writings with archaeological and genetic information we have to be a bit skeptical about their claims.
    Heredotus had ears and a mouth - he can communicate with people that ran into thracians who described what they looked like to him

    Next you will say ancient greeks werent short, dark skinned and black haired even though every single ancient historian says it even ancient greeks themselves and the romans

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    In regards to ancient language of the Thracian before becoming Latin based is something that has not been resolved
    In regards to Illyrians ......they began being mixed with Celts from southern Germany , from the Halstatt culture in Noricum ( east Austria ) all the way to the celtic settling in Serbia ...the Scordisci
    https://www.academia.edu/10763789/On...ia_280_279_BC_
    then we have the great Illyrian revolt which the Romans have never said that there where Illyrians, but stated different tribes in Illricum
    the "illyrian" tribes involved in the 4 year long revolt as per roman census and Pliny
    To the Romans , these tribes where basically Dalmatians and pannonians
    Yes it is likely most of these illyrians that fought longest in the uprising were later outnumbered/replaced by roman empire citizens and then moreso by south slavs so they lost their identity, language, culture but you are missing the south illyrians - here is some history on one group of south illyrians

    "The Parthini are often mentioned in the course of the Roman wars in Illyria and Macedonia, 229 BCE, but as friends rather than foes of the Romans, having submitted at an early period to their arms. (Polyb. ii. 11; Livy xxix. 12.) After the death of Philip, king of Macedon, they appear to have been added to the dominions of Pleuratus, an Illyrian prince allied to the Romans."

    As you can see some illyrian groups teamed up with the romans so to speak and werent replaced. Pleuratus was king of Taulantii tribe and his tribe was later absorbed by the Dardani. Who were the parthini?

    "According to a mythological tradition reported by Appian (2nd century AD), the Parthini were among the South-Illyrian tribes that took their names from the first generation of the descendants of Illyrius, the eponymous ancestor of all the Illyrian peoples."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    E-m123 is at rate of 10% in Kukes district
    7-8% in the Elbasan district
    4-5% in the Tirana district
    6% in Berat region and 2 to 3% in 2-3 more districts on the border with FYROM.
    If it is native to the region, and we have no reason to believe eitherwise taking in mind it has high presence in all the states east of Albania, then the prevelance of the haplogroup would have been at least double before the migration of the Slavs and vlachs started.
    What are you talking about it is not 10% it is 4% in kukes and much less in the other regions too. Also, small numbers like this are skewed, you need at least 200+ results to make any sort of regionary analysis since there are 35,000 males in kukes and only 75 results

    You can see the percentages here -
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    Meanwhile the arbereshe statistics you brought up had over 10% em123 and elevated levels of r1a which are clearly foreign input

    Now stop trolling

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Absolute nonsense on all accounts once again. There is zero written evidence of illyrian language or having blue eyes.

    Northern Italians have plenty of blue eyes and they are very close to Illyrians. It's impossible they didnt have plenty. Besides, plenty of Albanians have blue eyes, so I don't understand your point here.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Thracians were always described as blue eyed redheads i will take written accounts over your speculative nonsense. How can you completely deny thracians being r1b and r1a without evidence?

    If they did have more redheads/blue eyes that was due to some selective breeding, as they were more to the Southeast of Illyrians genetically and had lot more of Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry as well.




    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    As for illyrians being nothing to romans, no one was - they made little work of the british and changed the whole landscape of britain, they still have roman roads today dont forget.

    In a way I agree, so who gives a damn about all those useless peoples anyway. Had they been any good they would have conquered or pillaged the Rome. Celts at least managed that, when the Romans were weaker. For ex. the great deeds that Huns have done in a century are 10 times more valuable and impressive than anything Illyrians have done in their history.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    According to some texts such as -
    Scholia in Lucianum: Icaromenippos; 24/16 (page 104):
    “The Getae, a barbarian and vigorous people who rising against the Romans and humiliating them such as to compel them to pay a tribute, were later, at the time of king Decebal, destroyed by Trajan in such a way that their entire people was reduced to forty men as Kriton tells in the Getica.”




    Kriton took part in the campaigns of Trajan. He was an eyewitness how romans eradicated dacians.

    Whatever he managed to ravage, he was not able to wipe out the Dacians, far from it. There were still Free Dacian tribes attacking the Romans in 2nd, 3rd century AD, some even penetrating deep South into Roman lands causing devastation. So if anything Romans smashed Illyrians, Thracians, they did not smash Dacians. They took just part of Dacia, and they had to leave it after only 160-170 years. Immediately as they left, some Dacian tribes actually returned to the area.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    The romans likely used illyrians in their army early on and spread dna across europe including in east europe where the thracians were but we will only find proof with ancient dna
    Romans didn't expand to Eastern Europe, they left part of the Dacia they took over after just 160 years.. So strong diversity of E-V13 in those areas cannot be Illyrian related but Dacian related. Few Illyrian related movements are represented by the true dominant Illyrian hg: J-L283, not the E-V13 lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    What are you talking about it is not 10% it is 4% in kukes and much less in the other regions too. Also, small numbers like this are skewed, you need at least 200+ results to make any sort of regionary analysis since there are 35,000 males in kukes and only 75 results

    You can see the percentages here -
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    Meanwhile the arbereshe statistics you brought up had over 10% em123 and elevated levels of r1a which are clearly foreign input

    Now stop trolling
    Kukes 3/26=11.5%
    Elbasan's Gramsh district: 1/10=10%
    Elbasan's Librazhd district 1/25=4%
    Tirana district= 3/60=5%
    Berat district=2/35=5.7%
    Kruje district= 1/16=6.6%
    Bulqize district=1/60=1.6%
    Devol district=1/8=12.5%

    My guess is that all districts close to the border with FYROM have similar rates but cause the samples were too small M123 statistically failed to register in most of them.
    Kukes district as it happens also has 15% R1a like Arbereshe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Not only did the ancient greeks say thracians were blue eyed redheads but so did the romans -
    Here is the roman description of dacians - as blue eyed blonde/redheads - https://www.persee.fr/doc/hiper_2284...17_num_4_1_923
    Some more descriptions -
    "Dacians are represented in the statues surmounting the Arch of Constantine and on Trajan's Column.[1] The artist of the Column took some care to depict, in his opinion, a variety of Dacian people—from high-ranking men, women, and children to the near-savage. Although the artist looked to models in Hellenistic art for some body types and compositions, he does not represent the Dacians as generic barbarians.[141]
    Classical authors applied a generalized stereotype when describing the "barbarians"—Celts, Scythians, Thracians—inhabiting the regions to the north of the Greek world.[142] In accordance with this stereotype, all these peoples are described, in sharp contrast to the "civilized" Greeks, as being much taller, their skin lighter and with straight light-coloured hair and blue eyes.[142] For instance, Aristotle wrote that "the Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for both they themselves and the environing air are moist.
    Here is a roman depiction of 2 giant dacian warriors - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...siMetope34.jpg
    So not only were they blue eyed redheads but they were also tall. Now are you calling the ancient greeks and great romans liars?
    Well those Roman accounts have to be taken with a reserve, and partly they expressed the relation of a people in comparison to Romans. Romans also mentioned Illyrians as tall. It may be that Illyrians and Dacians were taller than Romans but not so tall in general, and that is what their archeological records indicate. Their skeletons are far more important than anything else.

    Are you some dark, short Albanian trying to find an ancient people like you?

    Being short is a bad thing.. Height is one out of many aspects of biological quality which despite the futile efforts of some modern day "left wingers", can be measured, quantified and directed, where more is better. I am also very "liberal" but I am and have always been an extreme Darwinist. "Taking pride" in being short is tantamount to taking pride in being an imbecile..

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