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Thread: 'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

  1. #176
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    Yes. I agree. This is what the data shows as of today for J2a. Almost if not all results in Yfull with Albanian flags our our members. It seems that the distribution of J2a happened not later than LBA.
    What is interesting for J2a is that even though it has a low % in the population with a noticeable decrease of % from south to north, up to Tirana region it has very good diversity. North of Tirana the % and diversity decrease drastically.

    We still have a few members that need to test with higher resolution but its unlikely this will effect the trend we have seen thus far.
    So, you think Southern Illyrians could have had J2a in their ranks, atleast ~5-10%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Think that Albanians particularly the ones on this site are way too keen on proving that they are "pure" when everybody else is mixed and that they were here before everybody else. We really don't care. Some Greek guys on this site get a little too excited about these things.
    Albanians are keen on begging for attention

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Albanians are keen on begging for attention
    I will go more for genetic data from Greece.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So, you think Southern Illyrians could have had J2a in their ranks, atleast ~5-10%?
    South Albanian populations had much more than that.Once you remove the Slavic and Vlach lineages, and what ever the Ghegs brought with them, you are left with 20±% j2a lineages in South Albania. Arbereshe seem to have had similarly high rates once you similarly correct for historic migrations.
    Based on Rrenjet even today 37/470 samples in South Albania are J2a.That's 8%. Of course that's after 5 centuries of demographic distortions that diminished the native Christian orthodox Albanian population in South Albania and favourited the Muslim populations. Distortions that came on top of the migration of vlachs and Slavs into the region in the second half of the first milenia.Just the migrationary movements from the 12th century to the 1991 exodus of Christians(and the continuous migration of Christians since then) had dramatic impact on the genetic profile of the region. J2a lineages would have been much more higher than today,even 100 years ago , yet alone 2000 years ago.
    For comparison:
    -Coastal North Albania 2-3%
    -Rest of North Albania: less than 1% if you exclude the Fani tribe from Mirdita (which seems to have mixed with a tosk population in accordance to the oral traditions, testimony to that is the E-v13 strand in the tribe that is southern)
    - Kosovo: less than 1%
    -Arbereshe: 10±%

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Matzinger will soon publish a book on Illyrians: https://www.morawa.at/detail/ISBN-97...as/Die-Illyrer

    I am curious to know what he consider as ancestral cultural group to Illyrians.
    is he ( matzinger ) still stating

    reintroduced recently by Joachim Matzinger.[3] The theory is based on classical sources, archaeology and onomastics. The material culture of the Messapians bears a number of similarities to Illyrian material culture. Some Messapian anthroponyms have close Illyrian equivalents. Another grouping with the Venetic language and Liburnian language, once spoken in northeastern Italy and Liburnia, respectively, has also been proposed.

    this goes against Wilkes of 1995 theory ..............


    we only have 5 pages of Illyrian personnel names from East-Austria and Slovenia ( ancient name was Noricum )



    we know the Liburnians took their neigbours the Iapgians from north adriatic area to Foggia italy where these "illyrians" move slowly south absorbing the indigenous italic tribes until they reached the heel of italy.
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  6. #181
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    The revisited works of Italo-celtic language by Watkins in 2020 included Venetic and illyrian with Italo-celtic ..................clearly must be a central indo-european group of languages

  7. #182
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    here is the other alternative for these languages from 2020

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...om_the_West%27

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    is he ( matzinger ) still stating

    reintroduced recently by Joachim Matzinger.[3] The theory is based on classical sources, archaeology and onomastics. The material culture of the Messapians bears a number of similarities to Illyrian material culture. Some Messapian anthroponyms have close Illyrian equivalents. Another grouping with the Venetic language and Liburnian language, once spoken in northeastern Italy and Liburnia, respectively, has also been proposed.

    this goes against Wilkes of 1995 theory ..............


    we only have 5 pages of Illyrian personnel names from East-Austria and Slovenia ( ancient name was Noricum )



    we know the Liburnians took their neigbours the Iapgians from north adriatic area to Foggia italy where these "illyrians" move slowly south absorbing the indigenous italic tribes until they reached the heel of italy.
    I don't know, let's see. Usually from what i have read old German archeologists favored Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus Grave Culture from the Alps whom they migrated in Carpathians and latter in the Balkans as the ancestral cultural group to Proto-Illyrians. How true is this i am curious to know.

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    1470 Fior Jonima: A Ravaged Land

    THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.

    (Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)

    (Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).

    "I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
    I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
    When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
    Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
    After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
    Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
    The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
    Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
    Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
    Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
    28 December 1470

    [from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.

    (Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)

    (Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).

    "I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
    I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
    When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
    Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
    After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
    Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
    The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
    Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
    Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
    Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
    28 December 1470

    [from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]
    Very “logical” conclusion. Keep up this good work that you are doing.


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  11. #186
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.
    (Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)
    (Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).
    "I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
    I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
    When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
    Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
    After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
    Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
    The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
    Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
    Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
    Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
    28 December 1470
    [from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]
    I have read this long time ago, North Albania is synonymous with Ghegs. It was ravaged and unfortunately we lost a lot of our brethren and then again the surviving ones repopulated latter. The imaginary "Ghegs" coming from nowhere are just your wishful thinking.

    Balkans were in a hard times from Early Middle Ages.

  12. #187
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    lmao... Now he is jumping further. First it was Ghegs colonized South Albania/Northern Greece. Now Ghegs colonized North Albania? In 1470s?? Right after they fought Ottomans successfully for 26 years?

    Bro whatever you are smoking, pass it around, its good shit.

    Guess ghosts fought the Ottomans. And the L283 from Middle Bronze age North Albania were time travelers.
    Then when I report such posts, and other members complain within the thread, the mods say " I do not see what is wrong with the discussion, stop weaponizing moderation". Give me a break. The whole premise of this thread is weaponized stupidity.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE FROM THE VENETIAN ARCHIVES, DOCUMENTS WHAT WE 'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE, THAT NORTH ALBANIA WAS COMPLETELY RAVAGED AND DEPOPULATED BY THE OTTOMAN BARBARITY JUST BEFORE IT WAS COLONIZED BY THE MIGRATING GHEGS.
    (Note: no mention of any Gheg tribe was mentioned in Venetian records more or less before the era this letter is referring to / Venetians had trade posts in the area for several centuries by this time)
    (Fior Jonima of Shkodra, scion of the noble Albanian Jonima family that owned much land between the Mat and Ishëm rivers, wrote this response to the Venetian tax authorities who had inquired of him as to why so little revenue had been arriving from Albania. Jonima provides here a chronology of events that shows that much of Albania was a wasteland at the time).
    "I, Fior Jonima, citizen of Skutari [Shkodra] and presently ambassador of this community, was asked, on the orders of the Magnificent Lord Administrator of Revenues, what I knew about the deeds of the Turks in this part of Albania for the years 1466 and 1467.
    I can state that around the end of April 1466, the Grand Turk arrived in this country in person and sent his captain forth who scoured the country and pillaged it. He stole many animals and kidnapped many people.
    When he departed, Ballaban arrived to besiege Croia [Kruja]. He too robbed and pillaged the towns of the Signoria, and kidnapped many people.
    Soon thereafter, Sinan Bey arrived, who brought about even greater ruin and destruction. He had animals and people kidnapped and put the country to the torch.
    After this came the Voyvod of Serbia, called Amur Bey, who caused great destruction. Not only did he steal endless numbers of animals, he also put the country to the torch and kidnapped quite a few people.
    Then came Lord Progon Dukagjin, who also robbed and put to the torch whatever was left over.
    The Grand Turk came back to this country in 1467 and sent the Pasha of Romania [Roumeli] out with a strong army [to subdue it]. He robbed, pillaged and took endless numbers of people off with him. When he had had his fill of robbing and pillaging, he continued on to the region of Skutari where he came to blows with the people. He finally got into the open town outside the fortress, which he robbed and pillaged.
    Then came a Voyvod called Feriz Bey who also robbed and pillaged.
    Then came Nikola Dukagjin, who also robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    After this, the Voyvod of Serbia came back a second time to rob and pillage and kidnap more people.
    Then came the Voyvod of Dibra who robbed, pillaged and kidnapped many people.
    In conclusion, I can say that in the period in question, this country was turned into a wasteland. It has remained as such up to the present day. Gone are not only the settlements, but also the people, with the exception of those few villages that have been rebuilt. It would thus be necessary for prisoners who have been convicted or banned to be pardoned and sent to this country [to repopulate it]"
    28 December 1470
    [from: Archivio di Stato di Venezia, Governatori delle pubbliche entrate, registri multorum B. 145 (vol. 35), 13r-v; reprinted in Oliver Jens Schmitt: Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479), Munich 2001, p. 646. Translated from the Venetian Italian by Robert Elsie.]

    I have seen this as well .................the issue is that the Principality of Zeta ruled much of the Gheg lands , so venetians dealt with the lords of Zeta separately

    The Ghegs where then ruled over by Serbs or sometimes referred to as Savians by the byzantines
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_u...rnojevi%C4%87i

  14. #189
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    I have never had a particular interest into this subclades, especially after Justinian Plague and then Slavic migrations, obviously there was a huge decline and reducement in diversity and then they spread out after healing. But it was too late then, Slavs were recruited by Byzantine Empire because they could provide them fresh troops to fight Persians and then Arabs.

    Byzantine Empire prior Justinian Plague was dominated by Thracians and then Illyrians, after that it was dominated by Greeks and occassionally by Armenians/Anatolians.

    Targeting this dark ages, i can pick any kind of Y-DNA subclades and provide tones of imaginary migratory routes, because each one of their explanations is a grey zone since there is no logical constraints to falsify or verify.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I have seen this as well .................the issue is that the Principality of Zeta ruled much of the Gheg lands , so venetians dealt with the lords of Zeta separately

    The Ghegs where then ruled over by Serbs or sometimes referred to as Savians by the byzantines
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_u...rnojevi%C4%87i
    Issue?


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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Issue?


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    It's the same person who used to go by "Sile" (some years ago) spreading the same nonsense..
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    J2a must have been an important haplogroup in the south and central Albania if we extrapolate from the current population and its diversity, but their identity its harder to say for sure. We know that they were not indoeuropean speakers originally, but the fact that J2a does not seem an important haplogroup in the Greek minority in Albania, they are mostly sllavic haplogroups(75%), means that J2a must have been assimilated indoeuropianized linguistically prior to the Roman arrival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So, you think Southern Illyrians could have had J2a in their ranks, atleast ~5-10%?

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It's the same person who used to go by "Sile" (some years ago) spreading the same nonsense..
    Old habits die hard.


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    At Rrenjet project the first Albanian has tested positive for the J2b-L283-Z38240-Z38241 and is negative for the subclade PH1602, which is downstream. This is the first Albanian to be under this clade, Z38240, which includes the Bronze Age Dalmatian sample. He is from Mat region that as of today I would say has produced very interesting and diverse J2b-L283 results.

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