'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

[TaktikatEMalet]

In regards to ancient language of the Thracian before becoming Latin based is something that has not been resolved
In regards to Illyrians ......they began being mixed with Celts from southern Germany , from the Halstatt culture in Noricum ( east Austria ) all the way to the celtic settling in Serbia ...the Scordisci
https://www.academia.edu/10763789/On_The_Celtic_Conquest_of_Thrace_and_Macedonia_280_279_BC_
then we have the great Illyrian revolt which the Romans have never said that there where Illyrians, but stated different tribes in Illricum
the "illyrian" tribes involved in the 4 year long revolt as per roman census and Pliny
To the Romans , these tribes where basically Dalmatians and pannonians

Yes it is likely most of these illyrians that fought longest in the uprising were later outnumbered/replaced by roman empire citizens and then moreso by south slavs so they lost their identity, language, culture but you are missing the south illyrians - here is some history on one group of south illyrians

"The Parthini are often mentioned in the course of the Roman wars in Illyria and Macedonia, 229 BCE, but as friends rather than foes of the Romans, having submitted at an early period to their arms. (Polyb. ii. 11; Livy xxix. 12.) After the death of Philip, king of Macedon, they appear to have been added to the dominions of Pleuratus, an Illyrian prince allied to the Romans."

As you can see some illyrian groups teamed up with the romans so to speak and werent replaced. Pleuratus was king of Taulantii tribe and his tribe was later absorbed by the Dardani. Who were the parthini?

"According to a mythological tradition reported by Appian (2nd century AD), the Parthini were among the South-Illyrian tribes that took their names from the first generation of the descendants of Illyrius, the eponymous ancestor of all the Illyrian peoples."

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

E-m123 is at rate of 10% in Kukes district
7-8% in the Elbasan district
4-5% in the Tirana district
6% in Berat region and 2 to 3% in 2-3 more districts on the border with FYROM.
If it is native to the region, and we have no reason to believe eitherwise taking in mind it has high presence in all the states east of Albania, then the prevelance of the haplogroup would have been at least double before the migration of the Slavs and vlachs started.

What are you talking about it is not 10% it is 4% in kukes and much less in the other regions too. Also, small numbers like this are skewed, you need at least 200+ results to make any sort of regionary analysis since there are 35,000 males in kukes and only 75 results

You can see the percentages here -
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

Meanwhile the arbereshe statistics you brought up had over 10% em123 and elevated levels of r1a which are clearly foreign input

Now stop trolling

 

[Aspurg]

Absolute nonsense on all accounts once again. There is zero written evidence of illyrian language or having blue eyes.

Northern Italians have plenty of blue eyes and they are very close to Illyrians. It's impossible they didnt have plenty. Besides, plenty of Albanians have blue eyes, so I don't understand your point here.

Thracians were always described as blue eyed redheads i will take written accounts over your speculative nonsense. How can you completely deny thracians being r1b and r1a without evidence?

If they did have more redheads/blue eyes that was due to some selective breeding, as they were more to the Southeast of Illyrians genetically and had lot more of Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry as well.

As for illyrians being nothing to romans, no one was - they made little work of the british and changed the whole landscape of britain, they still have roman roads today dont forget.

In a way I agree, so who gives a damn about all those useless peoples anyway. Had they been any good they would have conquered or pillaged the Rome. Celts at least managed that, when the Romans were weaker. For ex. the great deeds that Huns have done in a century are 10 times more valuable and impressive than anything Illyrians have done in their history.

According to some texts such as -
Scholia in Lucianum: Icaromenippos; 24/16 (page 104):
“The Getae, a barbarian and vigorous people who rising against the Romans and humiliating them such as to compel them to pay a tribute, were later, at the time of king Decebal, destroyed by Trajan in such a way that their entire people was reduced to forty men as Kriton tells in the Getica.”




Kriton took part in the campaigns of Trajan. He was an eyewitness how romans eradicated dacians.

Whatever he managed to ravage, he was not able to wipe out the Dacians, far from it. There were still Free Dacian tribes attacking the Romans in 2nd, 3rd century AD, some even penetrating deep South into Roman lands causing devastation. So if anything Romans smashed Illyrians, Thracians, they did not smash Dacians. They took just part of Dacia, and they had to leave it after only 160-170 years. Immediately as they left, some Dacian tribes actually returned to the area.

The romans likely used illyrians in their army early on and spread dna across europe including in east europe where the thracians were but we will only find proof with ancient dna

Romans didn't expand to Eastern Europe, they left part of the Dacia they took over after just 160 years.. So strong diversity of E-V13 in those areas cannot be Illyrian related but Dacian related. Few Illyrian related movements are represented by the true dominant Illyrian hg: J-L283, not the E-V13 lol.

 

[Parapolitikos]

What are you talking about it is not 10% it is 4% in kukes and much less in the other regions too. Also, small numbers like this are skewed, you need at least 200+ results to make any sort of regionary analysis since there are 35,000 males in kukes and only 75 results

You can see the percentages here -
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

Meanwhile the arbereshe statistics you brought up had over 10% em123 and elevated levels of r1a which are clearly foreign input

Now stop trolling

Kukes 3/26=11.5%
Elbasan's Gramsh district: 1/10=10%
Elbasan's Librazhd district 1/25=4%
Tirana district= 3/60=5%
Berat district=2/35=5.7%
Kruje district= 1/16=6.6%
Bulqize district=1/60=1.6%
Devol district=1/8=12.5%

My guess is that all districts close to the border with FYROM have similar rates but cause the samples were too small M123 statistically failed to register in most of them.
Kukes district as it happens also has 15% R1a like Arbereshe.

 

[Aspurg]

Not only did the ancient greeks say thracians were blue eyed redheads but so did the romans -
Here is the roman description of dacians - as blue eyed blonde/redheads - https://www.persee.fr/doc/hiper_2284-5666_2017_num_4_1_923
Some more descriptions -
"Dacians are represented in the statues surmounting the Arch of Constantine and on Trajan's Column.[1] The artist of the Column took some care to depict, in his opinion, a variety of Dacian people—from high-ranking men, women, and children to the near-savage. Although the artist looked to models in Hellenistic art for some body types and compositions, he does not represent the Dacians as generic barbarians.[141]
Classical authors applied a generalized stereotype when describing the "barbarians"—Celts, Scythians, Thracians—inhabiting the regions to the north of the Greek world.[142] In accordance with this stereotype, all these peoples are described, in sharp contrast to the "civilized" Greeks, as being much taller, their skin lighter and with straight light-coloured hair and blue eyes.[142] For instance, Aristotle wrote that "the Scythians on the Black Sea and the Thracians are straight-haired, for both they themselves and the environing air are moist.
Here is a roman depiction of 2 giant dacian warriors - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AdamclisiMetope34.jpg
So not only were they blue eyed redheads but they were also tall. Now are you calling the ancient greeks and great romans liars?

Well those Roman accounts have to be taken with a reserve, and partly they expressed the relation of a people in comparison to Romans. Romans also mentioned Illyrians as tall. It may be that Illyrians and Dacians were taller than Romans but not so tall in general, and that is what their archeological records indicate. Their skeletons are far more important than anything else.

Are you some dark, short Albanian trying to find an ancient people like you?

Being short is a bad thing.. Height is one out of many aspects of biological quality which despite the futile efforts of some modern day "left wingers", can be measured, quantified and directed, where more is better. I am also very "liberal" but I am and have always been an extreme Darwinist. "Taking pride" in being short is tantamount to taking pride in being an imbecile..

 

[bigsnake49]

Heredotus had ears and a mouth - he can communicate with people that ran into thracians who described what they looked like to him
Next you will say ancient greeks werent short, dark skinned and black haired even though every single ancient historian says it even ancient greeks themselves and the romans

What Herodotus did is listen to the stories of the equivalent of itinerant tradesmen not scientists or historians or statisticians. If those tradesmen encountered 2-3 red headed Thracians they immediately assumed all Thracians were red-headed. Only genetic analysis will determine the percentage of red headed people in ancient Thrace.

The same thing with stature. Measurements of skeletons particularly of younger people will determine how tall or short the Greeks were vs the Illyrians vs the Romans vs the Dacians. Or whether they were black haired or purple. By the way, modern Greek males are 178cm tall where as Albanian males are 174. People from Herzegovina are the tallest at 185.2 cm followed by the Dutch at 183.8 and the Montenegrins at 183.2.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Northern Italians have plenty of blue eyes and they are very close to Illyrians. It's impossible they didnt have plenty. Besides, plenty of Albanians have blue eyes, so I don't understand your point here.
If they did have more redheads/blue eyes that was due to some selective breeding, as they were more to the Southeast of Illyrians genetically and had lot more of Bronze Age Anatolian ancestry as well.
In a way I agree, so who gives a damn about all those useless peoples anyway. Had they been any good they would have conquered or pillaged the Rome. Celts at least managed that, when the Romans were weaker. For ex. the great deeds that Huns have done in a century are 10 times more valuable and impressive than anything Illyrians have done in their history.
Whatever he managed to ravage, he was not able to wipe out the Dacians, far from it. There were still Free Dacian tribes attacking the Romans in 2nd, 3rd century AD, some even penetrating deep South into Roman lands causing devastation. So if anything Romans smashed Illyrians, Thracians, they did not smash Dacians. They took just part of Dacia, and they had to leave it after only 160-170 years. Immediately as they left, some Dacian tribes actually returned to the area.
Romans didn't expand to Eastern Europe, they left part of the Dacia they took over after just 160 years.. So strong diversity of E-V13 in those areas cannot be Illyrian related but Dacian related. Few Illyrian related movements are represented by the true dominant Illyrian hg: J-L283, not the E-V13 lol.

Youre making more nonsense up, first of all north italians have a lot of german dna that came thousand years after roman empire was created. Also original romans werent blondes and yes there are blondes in albania and blue eyes but its likely from ostrogoths or possible early german/illyrian mix however red hair is near non existant in albanians yet almost 30% v13 which means thracians could never have been majority v13. North italians have very little y dna similarity with illyrians as they have a lot of german dna and we havent figured out what illyrians carried yet anyway.

Romans not only expanded to eastern europe but as history and even modern times tell us they actually moved citizens there and even managed to keep the latin language after the huge south slavic invasion. It is likely that not only romania but also bulgarian region spoke latin before south slav arrival, romania still does today. Dacians were almost completely replaced and definitely outnumbered twice, first by roman citizens and then by south slavs.

Show me a database of romanian y dna to showcase this great density and diversity of v13 - some of which was definitely placed there by foreign sources - dont forget even greeks have plenty of v13 and they were neighbours to thracians

You dont know what y dna lines illyrians carried, you wont even accept what the ancient greeks and romans say about the people that lived at the time

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Kukes 3/26=11.5%
Elbasan's Gramsh district: 1/10=10%
Elbasan's Librazhd district 1/25=4%
Tirana district= 3/60=5%
Berat district=2/35=5.7%
Kruje district= 1/16=6.6%
Bulqize district=1/60=1.6%
Devol district=1/8=12.5%
My guess is that all districts close to the border with FYROM have similar rates but cause the samples were too small M123 statistically failed to register in most of them.
Kukes district as it happens also has 15% R1a like Arbereshe.

Why are you making numbers up again, i gave you the link already. And quit using small skewed figures to make shit up

Kukes has 5% r1a and it will probably go lower with more results, arbereshe had over 10%. 4% em123 compared to over 10% in arbereshe.

Youre obviously a troll and/or just acting stupid calculating these percentages over tiny amounts of data

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Well those Roman accounts have to be taken with a reserve, and partly they expressed the relation of a people in comparison to Romans. Romans also mentioned Illyrians as tall. It may be that Illyrians and Dacians were taller than Romans but not so tall in general, and that is what their archeological records indicate. Their skeletons are far more important than anything else.
Are you some dark, short Albanian trying to find an ancient people like you?
Being short is a bad thing.. Height is one out of many aspects of biological quality which despite the futile efforts of some modern day "left wingers", can be measured, quantified and directed, where more is better. I am also very "liberal" but I am and have always been an extreme Darwinist. "Taking pride" in being short is tantamount to taking pride in being an imbecile..

Another troll. Makes fun of romans because he cant handle the truth - what they said is fact because they lived at the time whereas you are here in 2021 speculating and making shit up. You realise that these short romans dominated your so called tall ancestors wherever youre from

Also, diet plays a bigger role than genetics in getting tall, americans were 170cm tall 100 years ago. Height doesnt determine a persons strength, it comes more from determination, grit and mental strength

Where is the proof that a roman called illyrians tall? Dont say shit without backing it up, and im sure some of them were tall but they were never described as blue eyed redheads like thracians

I am average height not that it has anything to do with the discussion, my grandad was blonde, more blonde than yours. I have cousins that are more blonde than yours but this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand so stay on topic

 

[Parapolitikos]

Why are you making numbers up again, i gave you the link already. And quit using small skewed figures to make shit up

Kukes has 5% r1a and it will probably go lower with more results, arbereshe had over 10%. 4% em123 compared to over 10% in arbereshe.

Youre obviously a troll and/or just acting stupid calculating these percentages over tiny amounts of data

Ah I can see now from where you confusion stems from. You conflate regions and districts with the same namet. And those ARE the data of rrenjett.Per district that is.
Kukes region has 3 districts .
One of them is the Kukes district.
Onother one, of Kukes' districts, is Tropoje which has the highest consentration of Gheg genetics in Albania. Next door Kukes district on the other hand, in spite its proximity with Tropoje has among the lowest Gheg genetics(irrespective of the language they speak). Which are at odds with all northern Albanian districts minus the coastal areas.It seems Kukes district was one of the least affected from the Gheg migrations.Thus holds vital information of the North Albanian population before the arrival of Ghegs.
You should study more the data of rrenjet instead of making baseless accusations.

Ps the R1a rate in Kukes district is as I said 15%
4/26=15.4%, and for E-m123= 3/26= 11.5% https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Ah I can see now from where you confusion stems from. You conflate regions and districts with the same namet. And those ARE the data of rrenjett.Per district that is.
Kukes region has 3 districts .
One of them is the Kukes district.
Onother one, of Kukes' districts, is Tropoje which has the highest consentration of Gheg genetics in Albania. Next door Kukes district on the other hand, in spite its proximity with Tropoje has among the lowest Gheg genetics(irrespective of the language they speak). Which are at odds with all northern Albanian districts minus the coastal areas.It seems Kukes district was one of the least affected from the Gheg migrations.Thus holds vital information of the North Albanian population before the arrival of Ghegs.
You should study more the data of rrenjet instead of making baseless accusations.
Ps the R1a rate in Kukes district is as I said 15%
4/26=15.4%, and for E-m123= 3/26= 11.5% https://rrenjet.com/databaza-publike/

Youre an absolute troll picking and choosing small amounts of data to study. How can you study 26 males and claim anything from that, look at the hundreds of "gegs" and you will get the real picture

There are probably small regions in greece with 50% r1a or em123 but no one cares when the figures are so small and irrelevant

The gegs arrived thousands of years ago and have remained in north albania since - meanwhile most r1a, j2a and e-m123 is foreign and thankfully it is tiny amounts as gegs are the least mixed people in europe

 

[Aspurg]

Youre making more nonsense up, first of all north italians have a lot of german dna that came thousand years after roman empire was created. Also original romans werent blondes and yes there are blondes in albania and blue eyes but its likely from ostrogoths or possible early german/illyrian mix however red hair is near non existant in albanians yet almost 30% v13 which means thracians could never have been majority v13. North italians have very little y dna similarity with illyrians as they have a lot of german dna and we havent figured out what illyrians carried yet anyway.

Germanic autosomal admixture in Albanians is low, it is low in all the Balkans. Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admixture. Slavic admixed Albanians do not cluster autosomally with Illyrians, and Albanians without Slavic admixture also do not cluster well with them.


Plus of course Albanians, Serbs, Greeks and all of Balkans have tons of Byzantine Medieval Anatolian ancestry, reflected in their phenotypes as well.

Romans not only expanded to eastern europe but as history and even modern times tell us they actually moved citizens there and even managed to keep the latin language after the huge south slavic invasion. It is likely that not only romania but also bulgarian region spoke latin before south slav arrival, romania still does today. Dacians were almost completely replaced and definitely outnumbered twice, first by roman citizens and then by south slavs.

Fact is 0 out of 3 BA and MBA proto-Illyrians are E-V13 and 5 out of 7 historical Daco-Thracians are E-V13. That alone makes all you write a pile of garbage.

Show me a database of romanian y dna to showcase this great density and diversity of v13 - some of which was definitely placed there by foreign sources - dont forget even greeks have plenty of v13 and they were neighbours to thracians

Romanians are not well tested, and it requires lots of knowledge to draw their lineages from current sources. But why do you focus on Romanians? Bulgarians have as much as E-V13 in percentage as Albanians once Slavic admixture is adjusted for and they have more diversity under E-BY3880 on a lower sample.


Thracians on Romanian soil i.e. Getae and Dacians were of Southern origin, arriving to Romania from the Iron Gates region and Bulgaria 1000-800 BC. That is why Getae were also more Southern genetically than Illyrians.

You dont know what y dna lines illyrians carried, you wont even accept what the ancient greeks and romans say about the people that lived at the time

They carried J-L283 which is 10 times more Illyrian than E-V13.. First they brought the Illyrian language unlike the E-V13 they assimilated on the Balkans, and judging by current ancient samples whatever amount of E-V13 Illyrians had, they had more of J-L283..

 

[blevins13]

Germanic autosomal admixture in Albanians is low, it is low in all the Balkans. Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admixture. Slavic admixed Albanians do not cluster autosomally with Illyrians, and Albanians without Slavic admixture also do not cluster well with them.


Plus of course Albanians, Serbs, Greeks and all of Balkans have tons of Byzantine Medieval Anatolian ancestry, reflected in their phenotypes as well.







Fact is 0 out of 3 BA and MBA proto-Illyrians are E-V13 and 5 out of 7 historical Daco-Thracians are E-V13. That alone makes all you write a pile of garbage.





Romanians are not well tested, and it requires lots of knowledge to draw their lineages from current sources. But why do you focus on Romanians? Bulgarians have as much as E-V13 in percentage as Albanians once Slavic admixture is adjusted for and they have more diversity under E-BY3880 on a lower sample.


Thracians on Romanian soil i.e. Getae and Dacians were of Southern origin, arriving to Romania from the Iron Gates region and Bulgaria 1000-800 BC. That is why Getae were also more Southern genetically than Illyrians.





They carried J-L283 which is 10 times more Illyrian than E-V13.. First they brought the Illyrian language unlike the E-V13 they assimilated on the Balkans, and judging by current ancient samples whatever amount of E-V13 Illyrians had, they had more of J-L283..

What about Illyrii proprie dicti, did they have E-V13?




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[Aspurg]

What about Illyrii proprie dicti, did they have E-V13?

Those tested are from MBA Dalmatia and N.Albania. E-V13 was probably stronger in Southern Albania, south of Shkumbin river where a strong non-Illyrian population lived prior to their Illyrisation in Early Iron Age. Some evidence suggests this population was Phrygian.

It is not likely V13 has strong association with "Illyrii proprie dicti", rather J-L283 should have it as it is strong in N.Albania. V13 more like with people such as Enchelei.

 

[blevins13]

'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

Those tested are from MBA Dalmatia and N.Albania. E-V13 was probably stronger in Southern Albania, south of Shkumbin river where a strong non-Illyrian population lived prior to their Illyrisation in Early Iron Age. Some evidence suggests this population was Phrygian.

It is not likely V13 has strong association with "Illyrii proprie dicti", rather J-L283 should have it as it is strong in N.Albania. V13 more like with people such as Enchelei.

We know that:
1. Illyrian proprie is a very late name from central Albania after 1200BC, probably a name of a tribe that Greeks contacted first.
2. We know that E-V13 expanded in south Balkans and Albania after 1200 BC and probably is related with urnfield burials.

So there is no prof that the people that were first called Illyrian had little E-V13, the opposite is more possible since they were located in Albania and had been impacted from urnfield culture, or maybe they were a subset of that culture.

Phrygian have left after Bronze Age collapse.


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[TaktikatEMalet]

Germanic autosomal admixture in Albanians is low, it is low in all the Balkans. Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admixture. Slavic admixed Albanians do not cluster autosomally with Illyrians, and Albanians without Slavic admixture also do not cluster well with them.
Plus of course Albanians, Serbs, Greeks and all of Balkans have tons of Byzantine Medieval Anatolian ancestry, reflected in their phenotypes as well.
Fact is 0 out of 3 BA and MBA proto-Illyrians are E-V13 and 5 out of 7 historical Daco-Thracians are E-V13. That alone makes all you write a pile of garbage.
Romanians are not well tested, and it requires lots of knowledge to draw their lineages from current sources. But why do you focus on Romanians? Bulgarians have as much as E-V13 in percentage as Albanians once Slavic admixture is adjusted for and they have more diversity under E-BY3880 on a lower sample.
Thracians on Romanian soil i.e. Getae and Dacians were of Southern origin, arriving to Romania from the Iron Gates region and Bulgaria 1000-800 BC. That is why Getae were also more Southern genetically than Illyrians.
They carried J-L283 which is 10 times more Illyrian than E-V13.. First they brought the Illyrian language unlike the E-V13 they assimilated on the Balkans, and judging by current ancient samples whatever amount of E-V13 Illyrians had, they had more of J-L283..

Where are you getting these autosomnal BS - no one actually believes that nonsense, as you have seen south slavic y dna is low in albania - not close to 25%, it is only slightly more than common germanic lines. The v13 that was already in serbia also moved to romania and bulgaria with the south slavs after they became assimilated which would have increased levels there too - and even with that bulgarians still have much less v13 than albanians

Show me the daco thracians that were v13 and give me the estimated year - MBA is a very long time - give me an estimated year before you try to "confirm" illyrian dna - we hardly have any ancient data at all for you to say nonsense like l283 was 10x more common in illyrians than v13 - l283 could still be pre illyrian people.

It is also not possible for illyrians to be pure jl283 when they managed to be so widespread across huge lands in europe in late bronze age and same case for thracians and v13 - thracians were described as tall blue eyed redheads - probably related to scythians and mixed with celts. There is absolutely zero chance they were 100% v13 not even 50% is possible - ive already been through this. Where is proof that thracians were more southern genetically than illyrians considering actual historians described them as blue eyed redheads

I would even say this is more likely for v13 people than blue eyed redhead thracians -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Bronze_Age_migrations_(ancient_Near_East)#Destruction

Cultural similarities between illyrians and hittites - https://www.google.com/amp/s/at001.wordpress.com/2017/08/13/hittites-and-illyrians-shared-cults/amp/

First double headed eagle (hittite)
http://www.hubert-herald.nl/TwoHeadedEagle_bestanden/image086.jpg

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Those tested are from MBA Dalmatia and N.Albania. E-V13 was probably stronger in Southern Albania, south of Shkumbin river where a strong non-Illyrian population lived prior to their Illyrisation in Early Iron Age. Some evidence suggests this population was Phrygian.
It is not likely V13 has strong association with "Illyrii proprie dicti", rather J-L283 should have it as it is strong in N.Albania. V13 more like with people such as Enchelei.

Yet enchelei had nothing to do with thracians. The years in MBA are important, just saying MBA doesnt mean anything. I have no doubt that ancient greek people or others lived there prior to illyrian invasion, but we dont have any facts to suggest illyrians were pure l283 or pure v13. You are here suggesting that v13 existed in western balkans prior to l283 yet we have no evidence to prove that yet

It is also possible that l283 wasnt a densely populated line in late bronze age but survived in mountains and expanded later on following wars/death of other lines

Something else which can be debated is the origins of the dardani, a few suggest they may have originally been thracians instead of illyrians which could explain the mix of l283, z2103, v13, r1a etc in western balkans as they absorbed some illyrian land/tribes

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

What Herodotus did is listen to the stories of the equivalent of itinerant tradesmen not scientists or historians or statisticians. If those tradesmen encountered 2-3 red headed Thracians they immediately assumed all Thracians were red-headed. Only genetic analysis will determine the percentage of red headed people in ancient Thrace.

The same thing with stature. Measurements of skeletons particularly of younger people will determine how tall or short the Greeks were vs the Illyrians vs the Romans vs the Dacians. Or whether they were black haired or purple. By the way, modern Greek males are 178cm tall where as Albanian males are 174. People from Herzegovina are the tallest at 185.2 cm followed by the Dutch at 183.8 and the Montenegrins at 183.2.

And no one actually knows which ancient people have been measured. What we do know is that the ancient greeks were short, dark skinned and black haired as described by themselves and the romans. The romans werent tall either and werent blonde - these are facts that are written down in history.

That data is probably outdated as albanians are usually taller than 174cm now as the country has slowly become more wealthy. More money, better food (usually school years) generally equals more height. Albanians height is more due to living in communist regime and therefore kids not eating much when growing up. Americans were 170cm 100 years ago and dutch were amongst the shortest 150 years ago at 164cm

Genetics play a small part but looks like nutrition even more as we find plenty of tall greeks, arab, japanese etc now. It is possible that greeks are taller now due to having quite a lot of south slavic dna but again its also to do with nutrition. Africans are a good example as they are generally taller when born in europe/america instead of those born in africa

 

[lacreme]

Anyone here from Rrenjet project ? I'd like to ask about a specific sample on Yfull.
Thanks!

And no one actually knows which ancient people have been measured. What we do know is that the ancient greeks were short, dark skinned and black haired as described by themselves and the romans. The romans werent tall either and werent blonde - these are facts that are written down in history.

That data is probably outdated as albanians are usually taller than 174cm now as the country has slowly become more wealthy. More money, better food (usually school years) generally equals more height. Albanians height is more due to living in communist regime and therefore kids not eating much when growing up. Americans were 170cm 100 years ago and dutch were amongst the shortest 150 years ago at 164cm

Genetics play a small part but looks like nutrition even more as we find plenty of tall greeks, arab, japanese etc now. It is possible that greeks are taller now due to having quite a lot of south slavic dna but again its also to do with nutrition. Africans are a good example as they are generally taller when born in europe/america instead of those born in africa

Since Albanians have very similar levels of steppe+slavic with (native) Northern Greeks if there are height differences between them specifically nutrition could be a reason though I don't know if there's been any Greek study about the diet and the caloric intake of the latter since their incorporation in the Greek state until now.

 

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Since Albanians have very similar levels of steppe+slavic with (native) Northern Greeks if there are height differences between them specifically nutrition could be a reason though I don't know if there's been any Greek study about the diet and the caloric intake of the latter since their incorporation in the Greek state until now.