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Thread: 'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

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    'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

    jph1751.jpg
    J-PH1751

    J-PH1751 përbën shumicën absolute të J-Z38300. Është një ndër nëngrupet karakteristike për etninë shqiptare. Sipas testeve të deritanishme me rezolucion të lartë, paraardhësi i gjithë J-PH1751 ka jetuar para rreth 1300 viteve. Njëkohësisht, këta teste sugjerojnë për një ekspansion demografik të madh duke filluar nga mesjeta e hershme. Bazuar nga haplotipet e studimeve shkencore si dhe të testuarit, ka shpërndarje pothuajse në gjitha trevat shqiptare, duke përfshirë edhe zonat ku historikisht shqiptarët kanë patur prezencë, siç është Greqia dhe Italia jugore. Gjithashtu vërehet edhe në shtetet përreth, e në rajon, në një sasi të ulët. Sipas moshës dhe shpërndarjes, mund të thuhet se ka ngjashmëri me R-Y32147 (brenda R1b-Z2705). Koncentrimi më i lartë vërehet në pjesën veriore të shqiptarisë dhe gradualisht zvoglohet jashtë kësaj zone. Veçanërisht në Kosovë, ku sipas të testuarëve te deritanishëm përbën rreth 20% të linjave atërore. Bartësit e këtij mutacioni në Kosovë në shumicë u përkasin fiseve veriore shqiptare, siç janë: Krasniqi, Nikaj, një pjesë e fiseve Gashi, Kastrati, Thaçi, etj.
    Translation:The J-PH1751 makes up the absolute majority of the J-Z38300. It is one of the characteristic subgroups for the Albanian ethnicity. According to high-resolution tests to date, the entire ancestor of the J-PH1751 lived about 1300 years ago. At the same time, these tests suggest a large demographic expansion starting in the early Middle Ages. Based on haplotypes of scientific studies as well as tested, it is distributed in almost all Albanian territories, including areas where Albanians have historically had a presence, such as Greece and southern Italy. It is also observed in the surrounding countries, and in the region, in a low amount. By age and distribution, it can be said to have similarities to R-Y32147 (within R1b-Z2705). The highest concentration is observed in the northern part of Albania and gradually decreases outside this area. Especially in Kosovo, where according to the tested so far it constitutes about 20% of the paternal lines. The carriers of this mutation in Kosovo mostly belong to the northern Albanian tribes, such as: Krasniqi, Nikaj, a part of the tribes Gashi, Kastrati, Thaçi, etc.

    z2705 post.jpg
    Grupi R-BY611>Z2705 rrjedh nga haplogrupi R1b-M269 dhe dega e tij, R-Z2103. Është një ndër grupet specifike dhe kryesore mes nesh, me një shtrirje thuaja nëpër gjitha trevat shqiptare. Veçanërisht ka përfshirje në Malësi të Madhe, Malësi e Gjakovës, Kosovë, Shqipëri qëndrore, Labëri, dhe Skrapar. Profili modal i Y-DNA37 STR është si vijon: 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12. Shqiptarët që kanë këtë profil të Y-STR, mund të konstatojmë që së paku janë pozitiv për SNPs: BY611 si dhe Z2705. Kjo e fundit është nën-dega që përcakton grupin “ballkanik”. Sipas të dhënave të deritanishme nga YFull.com dhe kalkulatorëve te Y-STR, paraardhësi i grupit ka jetuar para rreth 1500 viteve. Vlen të ceket që në studime anonime ky profil i Y-STR është vërejtur edhe nën Arbëreshë si dhe Greqi ku ka popullatë me prejardhje shqiptare apo Arvanitas. Gjithashtu vërehet në një përqindje të konsiderueshme në Sanxhak, ku dihet që një pjesë e mirë e popullatës janë me prejardhje shqiptare. Faktet e lartpërmendura dhe homogjenia dëshmojnë për një karakter tejet “shqiptar” të këtij grupi.
    Translation:The group R-BY611> Z2705 is derived from the haplogroup R1b-M269 and its branch, R-Z2103. It is one of the specific and main groups between us, with an extension in almost all Albanian territories. In particular there are inclusions in Malësi e Madhe, Malësi e Gjakovës, Kosovo, central Albania, Labëri, and Skrapar. The modal profile of Y-DNA37 STR is as follows: 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-37 12 12. Albanians who have this profile of Y-STR, we can find that they are at least positive for SNPs: BY611 and Z2705. The latter is the sub-branch that defines the "Balkan" group. According to data so far from YFull.com and Y-STR calculators, the group's ancestor lived about 1500 years ago. It is worth mentioning that in anonymous studies this profile of Y-STR has been observed under Arbëreshë as well as Greece where there is a population of Albanian or Arvanitas origin. It is also observed in a significant percentage in Sandzak, where it is known that a good part of the population is of Albanian origin. The above facts and homogeneity testify to onevery "Albanian" character of this group .

    duo.jpg

    Above Are the maps(from albanian Dna project) of the two clades . Reminder : the Albanian DNA project didn't gather data scientifically. The sampling wasnt according to the population ratio of the regional population(South,North, Kosovo,Montenegro, Fyrom) compared to the total.The South Albanian Samples are grossly over-represented, almost twice as much as the ratio of the south Albanian population to the total Albanian population.And yes to preemptively ask your question i counted the samples one by one. To correct for the disparity of the samples you need to increase by a lot the the North Albania and Kossovo samples. I ve done the corrections in the past, but i cant remember the exact number, but it is more than 50%. That correction of course is factoring this parameter only. Many more parameters must be taken in mind to have a map that can be used to derive historical conclusions concerning ancestry and ethnography. Factors that correct for the history of the 2 last centuries that distorted the demographic profile of the regions. Factors like the population movements; refugees into Albania in the last 2 centuries, urbanization, forced relocation under the communists,ethnic minorities fleeing, disproportional immigration of religious minorities(for instance half the orthodox Albanians left Albania since 1990), etc etc.


    Conclusion: The Albanian project reaffirmed what i ve always claimed. R1b-z2705 and J-ph1705 presence in the Albanian space is very recent, and most probably(almost certain)
    R1b-z2705 and J-ph1705 arrived together as the main lineages of an incoming population that was fairly small at the time(1500 to 1000 years ago) but would expand geographically and demographically in the next millenia.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    quite a few problems with your "conclusion".

    but fist with data. the largest albanian y dna project is this: www.rrenjet.com.

    all results there are actual members and not just collected results from around. all results are from where the family of the tested person lived 100 years before, so the results are linked to the region before the modern urbanization happened in albania.

    some of your arguments negate each other. you say to many samples from the south and than say orthodox, who are mostly south of Shkumbin, have left in large numbers.

    Under the phenomenon of genetic bottleneck you are trying to push that these people were not in the west balkans prior to the slavic migration. objectively looking at data does not support this theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    quite a few problems with your "conclusion".
    but fist with data. the largest albanian y dna project is this: www.rrenjet.com.
    all results there are actual members and not just collected results from around. all results are from where the family of the tested person lived 100 years before, so the results are linked to the region before the modern urbanization happened in albania.
    some of your arguments negate each other. you say to many samples from the south and than say orthodox, who are mostly south of Shkumbin, have left in large numbers.
    Under the phenomenon of genetic bottleneck you are trying to push that these people were not in the west balkans prior to the slavic migration. objectively looking at data does not support this theory.
    It is the greatest site for albanian dna
    The data is huge
    Spread in all albanian regions
    and albanians outside albania border( kosovo etc...)
    Kudos for all your(alban)work
    Regards
    Adam

    P.s
    It is interesting for albanians and non-albanians
    who are intrested in albanian genetics
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe
    phenotype
    :
    gracile- med

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    What makes you think these lineages "arrived" to Albania in the early middle ages? For example, if we look at J-PH1751, we have three upstream splits that are found in Albania since the Bronze Age, starting at J-PH4679: https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/

    This would suggest western Balkan continuity since the Bronze Age. True, J-PH1751 expansion/TMRCA dates to the early middle ages, but that doesn't in any way suggest it arrived to Albania or the western Balkans at that time, but to the contrary as mentioned above. It's merely a lineage of J-Y21045>PH4679 that, for various reasons (ex. after population bottleneck) or by pure chance, had the greatest demographic expansion in the early middle ages.

    As for "Rrenjet", let's just say that this project was founded with over 500 tests that were processed by Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika.com
    Last edited by Trojet; 19-04-21 at 04:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    What makes you think these lineages "arrived" to Albania in the early middle ages? For example, if we look at J-PH1751, we have three upstream splits that are found in Albania since the Bronze Age, starting at J-PH4679: https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/
    This would suggest western Balkan continuity since the Bronze Age. True, J-PH1751 expansion/TMRCA dates to the early middle ages, but that doesn't in any way suggest it arrived to Albania or the western Balkans at that time, but to the contrary as mentioned above. It's merely a lineage of J-Y21045>PH4679 that, for various reasons (ex. after population bottleneck) or by pure chance, had the greatest demographic expansion in the early middle ages.
    As for "Rrenjet", let's just say that this project was founded with over 500 tests that were processed by Albanian Bloodlines - Gjenetika.com

    yes i know
    you argue with alban about it in anthrogenica
    and the modertor there was so mad
    that he closed the albanian dna thread completely ( unrational if you ask me )
    which is a bummer

    p.s
    even if it does the project reached 1084 people it is still impresive

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes i know
    you argue with alban about it in anthrogenica
    and the modertor there was so mad
    that he closed the albanian dna thread completely ( unrational if you ask me )
    which is a bummer
    Since you brought it up, you might want to ask user "Rrenjet" about any arguments that may have been started. As you can see there, his post has been edited out by the moderator. Besides, I don't think that thread was temporarily closed as a result of any of my posts.

    Anyway, I suggest enough with any off topic comments.
    Last edited by Trojet; 19-04-21 at 21:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes i know
    you argue with alban about it in anthrogenica
    and the modertor there was so mad
    that he closed the albanian dna thread completely ( unrational if you ask me )
    which is a bummer

    p.s
    even if it does the project reached 1084 people it is still impresive
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.



    I personally hope any rivalry between the project is productive, and arguments are done with actions. Both projects have and have had immense value for Albanian genetics. As I recall Albanians came from Africa was 10 years ago the main propaganda in forums, and Gjenetika took very decisive first steps to squash such ignorant rhetoric. I am glad Rrenjet has increased its database and gotten so many tests. I especially welcome this upcoming study, since this is the right direction to further the (*scientific*) research into Albanian genetics.

    Now since you mentioned that J2B2 seems to have been, based on the recent finding, in Albania since the Bronze Age; and since I myself belong to this clade, are you at freedom to at least clarify which clade and if we are talking of a sample predating or postdating the Maros and Dalmatia samples?

    Since such topics can be highly secretive at this stage of the research, let me know if it is possible to take this over DM. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 22-04-21 at 07:26. Reason: Typo
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post


    I personally hope any rivalry between the project is productive, and arguments are done with actions. Both projects have and have had immense value for Albanian genetics. As I recall Albanians came from Africa was 10 years ago the main propaganda in forums, and Gjenetika took very decisive first steps to squash such ignorant rhetoric. I am glad Rrenjet has increased its database and gotten so many tests. I especially welcome this upcoming study, since this is the right direction to further the (*scientific*) research into Albanian genetics.

    Now since you mentioned that J2B2 seems to have been, based on the recent finding, in Albania since the Bronze Age; and since I myself belong to this clade, are you at freedom to at least clarify which clade and if we are talking of a sample predating or postdating the Maros and Dalmatia samples?

    Since such topics can be highly secretive at this stage of the research, let me know if it is possible to take this over DM. Thanks in advance.
    I fully agree that no one has a monopoly on this. At Rrenjet we are proud not only of the large database that has been build but also of the fact that we don't keep members results hostage:). In rare cases when someone decides to leave the project we reflect that and take their result out of our database. Respect for private data and its use is paramount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post


    I personally hope any rivalry between the project is productive, and arguments are done with actions. Both projects have and have had immense value for Albanian genetics. As I recall Albanians came from Africa was 10 years ago the main propaganda in forums, and Gjenetika took very decisive first steps to squash such ignorant rhetoric. I am glad Rrenjet has increased its database and gotten so many tests. I especially welcome this upcoming study, since this is the right direction to further the (*scientific*) research into Albanian genetics.

    Now since you mentioned that J2B2 seems to have been, based on the recent finding, in Albania since the Bronze Age; and since I myself belong to this clade, are you at freedom to at least clarify which clade and if we are talking of a sample predating or postdating the Maros and Dalmatia samples?

    Since such topics can be highly secretive at this stage of the research, let me know if it is possible to take this over DM. Thanks in advance.
    Came from Africa? Not quite but not far from there. It doesnt really matter where they came from, what matters is when they settled in europe. E and j2b are clearly not typical western european lines - i currently believe the proto illyrians came through anatolia and pushed all the way to western balkans where they settled. They likely carried e-v13 and r1b z2103. R1b z2103 split from western european r1b thousands of years ago and settled south whilst the others moved west. There r1b and e-v13 met and many years later pushed into balkans. J2b l283 and r1b pf7562 are more mysterious, they could be pre illyrian people, etruscan or pelasgian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    So you are surprised there is no L283 in Chameria after a Genocide? Quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    There are so many things wrong with what you say that I dont know where to start. I will pick a few:
    There is no Muslim movement from the north to the south. where do you come up with this things. Albanian middle age migration from north to south happened before Ottoman occupation. By the time of the ottoman occupation the country was already settled with the current structure. The only meaningful movement that happened during ottoman period was regional, for example from the highland of Mirdite to its nearest lowlands in Lezha. From south Dibra and Librazhd to the lowland of Elbasan and Belc. So this kind of movement were localized and did not change in essence the structure of the population regionally in terms of haplogroup or religion.

    Most j2b2 presence in the south is from middle age migration from north to south but this has nothing to do with the theories that you started this thread.

    your effort of trying to see these haplos as connected to religion is also ridiculous. example most labs were orthodox 300 ybp and that regions was settled with the current population a few centuries before this conversion so this kind of thinking does not take you anywhere and opens up a useless subject.

    et, etc.

  16. #16
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Well, according to The Rrenjet :

    a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

    labs.jpg

    (Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

    b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
    This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
    Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

    C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
    chams.jpg
    Arvanites.jpg

    D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
    arbareshe.jpg

    Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).
    Poor analysis, the movement from North to South is known but happened before Ottoman invasion not related to religion. Tosk vs Geg differences are logical as the language differences, go in line with each other. It will be interesting to have something similar from Greece, can you provide something like this?


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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Gjergj, do we know what sort of burial site these samples were found in? IE: What sort of inhumation they were in? Tumulus or something else. If you know the context would you please share?

  18. #18
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    To me it looks more and more, surprisingly even to me that Proto-Albanians or Pre-Proto-Albanians or call it even Proto-Albanoids were exclusively E-V13. There is many evidences for this now.

    Albanoid was very likely a language spoken in Central Europe during Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age, very likely near and around Carpathians were also hypothetically we have names that correspond only to Albanoid, like Beskidy Mountains.

    It's very likely Albanoid is an offshot or very closely related to Dardanian-Messapian.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    To me it looks more and more, surprisingly even to me that Proto-Albanians or Pre-Proto-Albanians or call it even Proto-Albanoids were exclusively E-V13. There is many evidences for this now.

    Albanoid was very likely a language spoken in Central Europe during Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age, very likely near and around Carpathians were also hypothetically we have names that correspond only to Albanoid, like Beskidy Mountains.

    It's very likely Albanoid is an offshot or very closely related to Dardanian-Messapian.
    While the more Western Illyrians were more like an amalgamation of these Dardanian-Messapians with Middle Bronze Age groups.

    Already in the Early and so more in the Middle amd Late Bronze Aegean ceramics and weapons are imported and imitated. But there is also a strong influrence from the Danubian Urnfield culture. Characteristic for the Late Bronze Age are large hilltop-settlements with wall fortifications.


    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/publi...-roman-albania
    The solely autochtonous theory was an Enverist propaganda of course, backed up by other Balkan archeologists.

  20. #20
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    While the more Western Illyrians were more like an amalgamation of these Dardanian-Messapians with Middle Bronze Age groups.



    The solely autochtonous theory was an Enverist propaganda of course, backed up by other Balkan archeologists.

    Can you explain what is Dardanian -messapian as the two groups are far apart , divided by other races, ie, Epirotes, Macedonians



    he is a map of the messapians and their more populace brothers ....................the orange one are the Samnites , a Umbrian group..............sabini and vestini have also origins as Umbrians

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    Do you perhaps know if they have tested for autosomal dna, and if they have is there anything you can share?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    Do you perhaps know if they have tested for autosomal dna, and if they have is there anything you can share?
    No, I am sorry. I did not ask them for autosomal dna. I presume they must have done it but since at Rrenjet.com we are more focused on Y dna I did not push to get that info.
    These first results are mostly from the north. the second project will have results mostly from south albania so they might possibly be more relevant to greece and macedonia as well.

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    No, I am sorry. I did not ask them for autosomal dna. I presume they must have done it but since at Rrenjet.com we are more focused on Y dna I did not push to get that info.
    These first results are mostly from the north. the second project will have results mostly from south albania so they might possibly be more relevant to greece and macedonia as well.
    No worries, thanks for the info.

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    Bottle neck? So what, i dont get your point with bringing up a bottle neck. North albania is full of mountains and people still live in mountains today so it is possible that north albanians are more inbred which is why their y dna looks like "bottleneck expansion".

    Also a lot of people died over the last 1500 years, including major diseases so the lines that survived expanded further. It is only ancient dna that can confirm when and where these lines came from.

    If you want to question something you should question the elevated levels of i2a-din and j2a in south albania as these are clearly foreign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Bottle neck? So what, i dont get your point with bringing up a bottle neck. North albania is full of mountains and people still live in mountains today so it is possible that north albanians are more inbred which is why their y dna looks like "bottleneck expansion".
    Also a lot of people died over the last 1500 years, including major diseases so the lines that survived expanded further. It is only ancient dna that can confirm when and where these lines came from.
    If you want to question something you should question the elevated levels of i2a-din and j2a in south albania as these are clearly foreign.
    How do you conclude that J2a is foreign in the albanian population?

    All J2a that we have at Rrenjet, many of them high resolution test are all bronze age. No specific connection to greeks or italians for at least 3,000 ybp. even more in fact. so there is zero data that J2a is foreign.
    Do you have any concrete data/evidence on what you are saying?

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