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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal structural shifts after the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Data Table S6D, tab B is fabulous. You can compare all the Italian samples both to the Near East and Yamnaya for each and every phenotype allele, from starch digestion, to resistance to diseases as well as the ever popular ***mentation.

    Interesting indeed as far as ***mentation goes, as well.

    Copper Age Italians had more SLC45A2 than Yamnaya... 63 versus 44. In fact, it declined in Italy after the arrival of the steppe people. They also had more SLC 24A4 and SLC 24A5.

    For OCA2, it's about even for 3, neither has one of them, and Yamnaya has more of one variety.

    HERC 2 is a little different. One neither has. Yamnaya has more, but they are also present in significant numbers in Copper Age Italy.

    The bizarre thing which I can't explain is that these de-***mentation snps where supposedly the Yamnaya did have higher numbers, like HERC 2 and a few OCA2, went DOWN in Italy after the arrival of the steppe people.

    Did a particularly dark subgroup of steppe admixed people invade Italy in the Bronze Age, or did these researchers also make the mistake of including Sintashta like people, i.e. people who had gone east after picking up de-***mentation snps in Europe?

    Does anyone know?

    Take a look at the prediction sheet, i.e. tab D.

    It makes no sense. People with the de***mentation snps which the Neolithic Italians had could not have had dark to black skin. Shades of the Greek paper! I don't know what group another poster had in mind when he called them "intermediate" in tone.

    Strangely enough, the Northern and Central Italian Neolithic samples are, on the whole, darker than the Sicilian and Sardinian Bronze Age.



    In OCA2, Maybe that's why they dropped from the "fair" skin predicted for Otzi, and the "intermediate" predicted for Bronze Age Italy.


    Yamnaya has more positives for some of the many MCIR alleles, and
    The authors conclusions and interpreation of the data:


    The fourth variant significant in both tests (rs16891982 in SLC45A2 gene) is implicated in hair and eye ***mentation. In terms of physical appearance, both the Chalcolithic and BA Italy groups have imputed phenotypes more similar to IA and Later Romans than to earlierpopulations in Italy and the Near East. The three previously published M****ithic individuals from Italy13,27,29 are predicted to have dark skin, dark hair, and blue eyes (Data S6D), although most of the other samples have predicted intermediate skin ***mentation, brown hair, and brown eyes; however, individuals with blue eyes paired with either dark or blond hair are also predicted in all time periods except in the N individuals from Central Italy (Data S6D).13 The variant rs16891982, linked to darker eyes and hair, shows asignificant difference between post-BA Italy group and previous groups from Italy, with the frequency decreasing in Central Italy starting in the newly reported Chalcolithic individuals and with the lowest values observed for the newly reported BA individuals and the post-Roman Republic Central Italy group. This difference is particularly notable compared to N Central Italy and Sardinian groupsprior to the BA (Data S6C)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Great! Finally some Chalcolithic Italian DNA.


    Here are the locations of the samples.



    There are two J2a samples from La Sassa. Both are J2a1-L26 > PF5087 > PF5160 and both date from c. 2840–2500 cal BCE. That branch of J2a is particularly common in the Arabian peninsula today, but is also found in Greece. In Italy, most of the J2-PF5160 today falls under the Z438 > L70 > Z435 clade.


    There are a lot of Sardinian samples not out yet from what I understood from the graphic. I am very interested in the Nuragics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    There are a lot of Sardinian samples not out yet from what I understood from the graphic. I am very interested in the Nuragics.

    Genetics[edit]

    A genetic study published in Nature Communications in February 2020 examined the remains of 17 individuals identified with Nuragic civilization. The samples of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup I2a1b1 (2 samples), R1b1b2a, G2a2b2b1a1, R1b1b (4 samples), J2b2a1 (3 samples) and G2a2b2b1a1a, while the samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to various types of haplogroup T, V, H, J, K and U.[70] The study found strong evidence of genetic continuity between Nuragic civilization and earlier Neolithic inhabitants of Sardinia, who were genetically similar to Neolithic peoples of Iberia and southern France.[71] They were determined to be of about 80% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry and 20% Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry.[72] They were predicted to be largely descended from peoples of the Neolithic Cardial Ware culture, which spread throughout the western Mediterranean in Southern Europe c. 5500 BC.[73] The Nuragic people were strongly differentiated from other Bronze Age peoples of Europe by the near absence of steppe-related ancestry.[71]



    source:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7039977/


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    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    J2b2a1 is not Cardial culture. There must have been some post neolithic immigration, but I don't know from where... Material culture say North Italy (Polada) but no R1b m269 has been found yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    The authors conclusions and interpreation of the data:

    I'd love to know where I contradicted that. If you go back and read my post you'll see that I never mentioned BLUE EYES. I talked about pale skin or blond hair.

    Feel free to show me the sample of pale skin and/or blond hair in any of the Bronze Age samples from Italy. Just give me the number. It's possible one that might exist. It's a long chart.

    As for how many are intermediate in the Bronze Age if that's what you're talking about, in the Sardinian Bronze Age there are 32 samples, of which 15 are darker than intermediate. That seems about an even split to me.

    In Bronze Age Sicily there are nine samples. Of those, six are darker than intermediate.

    Central Northern Italy Bronze Age they have six samples. All are intermediate.

    In the Chalcolithic, they have nine samples, of which five are darker than intermediate. One, interesting, is pale/intermediate.

    In the Antonio samples from the same period, of which there are ten, six are darker.

    In the Central Italian Neolithic from Antonio et al, of which there are ten samples, only one is intermediate. The Anatolian Neolithic is lighter.

    In the Sicilian Neolithic of which there are four samples, two are dark, two are intermediate. One of the intermediate skinned ones has blonde hair.

    No light haired people in the Copper/Chalcolithic or Bronze Age of the mainland or Sicily. It next shows up, strangely enough, in Bronze Age Sardinia, where they predict four dark blonde/intermediate skinned people. That's a surprise.

    In Iron Age Italy, there's one blonde out of 13 samples.

    So far, no pale skinned people, like Otzi, anywhere that I can see except that one pale/intermediate in the Chalcolithic.

    In the Empire, one red head, and 5 blondes.

    In Yamnaya, no blondes, and of the 17 samples, seven are darker than intermediate. I don't even know, given the their lack of SLC 24A5, SLC24A4, and SLC 45A2 how any of them are intermediate, unless Russia is loosely used and there are some Sintashta like samples in there.

    So, in making sure one is interpreting a few sentences in the summary of a paper correctly, I always think it's a good idea to look at their charts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'd love to know where I contradicted that. If you go back and read my post you'll see that I never mentioned BLUE EYES. I talked about pale skin or blond hair.

    Feel free to show me the sample of pale skin and/or blond hair in any of the Bronze Age samples from Italy. Just give me the number. It's possible one that might exist. It's a long chart.

    As for how many are intermediate in the Bronze Age if that's what you're talking about, in the Sardinian Bronze Age there are 32 samples, of which 15 are darker than intermediate. That seems about an even split to me.

    In Bronze Age Sicily there are nine samples. Of those, six are darker than intermediate.

    Central Northern Italy Bronze Age they have six samples. All are intermediate.

    In the Chalcolithic, they have nine samples, of which five are darker than intermediate. One, interesting, is pale/intermediate.

    In the Antonio samples from the same period, of which there are ten, six are darker.

    In the Central Italian Neolithic from Antonio et al, of which there are ten samples, only one is intermediate. The Anatolian Neolithic is lighter.

    In the Sicilian Neolithic of which there are four samples, two are dark, two are intermediate. One of the intermediate skinned ones has blonde hair.

    No light haired people in the Copper/Chalcolithic or Bronze Age of the mainland or Sicily. It next shows up, strangely enough, in Bronze Age Sardinia, where they predict four dark blonde/intermediate skinned people. That's a surprise.

    In Iron Age Italy, there's one blonde out of 13 samples.

    So far, no pale skinned people, like Otzi, anywhere that I can see except that one pale/intermediate in the Chalcolithic.

    In the Empire, one red head, and 5 blondes.

    In Yamnaya, no blondes, and of the 17 samples, seven are darker than intermediate. I don't even know, given the their lack of SLC 24A5, SLC24A4, and SLC 45A2 how any of them are intermediate, unless Russia is loosely used and there are some Sintashta like samples in there.

    So, in making sure one is interpreting a few sentences in the summary of a paper correctly, I always think it's a good idea to look at their charts.

    I didn‘t misinterpret the authors' claims but quoted their conclusion straight from the paper. Plus, I didn't mention pale skin at all. So, where did I claim, that CA or BA Italians were pale-skinned? I politely ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. And we already had a discussion about BA Greek paper where we came to the conclusion that "dark" in that context isn't that dark, and that dark to black doesn't translate into SSA complexion. Besides, I just wanted to point out that blond hair and blue eyes were not uncommon in Italy even during the BA. That's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Genetics[edit]

    A genetic study published in Nature Communications in February 2020 examined the remains of 17 individuals identified with Nuragic civilization. The samples of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup I2a1b1 (2 samples), R1b1b2a, G2a2b2b1a1, R1b1b (4 samples), J2b2a1 (3 samples) and G2a2b2b1a1a, while the samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to various types of haplogroup T, V, H, J, K and U.[70] The study found strong evidence of genetic continuity between Nuragic civilization and earlier Neolithic inhabitants of Sardinia, who were genetically similar to Neolithic peoples of Iberia and southern France.[71] They were determined to be of about 80% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry and 20% Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry.[72] They were predicted to be largely descended from peoples of the Neolithic Cardial Ware culture, which spread throughout the western Mediterranean in Southern Europe c. 5500 BC.[73] The Nuragic people were strongly differentiated from other Bronze Age peoples of Europe by the near absence of steppe-related ancestry.[71]



    source:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7039977/


    I am aware of that. Exactly why I am so interested in the many Sardinian samples in this study. Since the biggest open question for L283 are the 1300 bc Nuragic basal subbranches of l283. Who most certainly weren't Neolithic, and had to be bronze age immigrants in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    J2b2a1 is not Cardial culture. There must have been some post neolithic immigration, but I don't know from where... Material culture say North Italy (Polada) but no R1b m269 has been found yet

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    They couldn't have been Beeker? I have heard that theory circulating as a suspicion. But am not knowledgeable enough to say.
    Afaik Beakers were IE, and from what I understand of L283 Bronze Age migrations they likely were IE. So the only thing that makes sense is a boat ride for these y haplo carriers from southern France/northern Italy into Sardiania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I am aware of that. Exactly why I am so interested in the many Sardinian samples in this study. Since the biggest open question for L283 are the 1300 bc Nuragic basal subbranches of l283. Who most certainly weren't Neolithic, and had to be bronze age immigrants in the area.
    Cool
    Do you know on a futuer paper with new sardinian samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Cool
    Do you know on a futuer paper with new sardinian samples?
    No. But if what Maciamo shared with the graphic are samples where these samples in the paper came from, there are 30-40 Sardinian samples from the bronze age somewhere.



    And then someone mentioned June 1st... So...

    I cant find enough information to clarify if the rest of the samples are coming out, or if I misunderstood something.

    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    On June 1, E-V13 will show up, wait and see.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Great! Finally some Chalcolithic Italian DNA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    Here are the locations of the samples.



    There are two J2a samples from La Sassa. Both are J2a1-L26 > PF5087 > PF5160 and both date from c. 2840–2500 cal BCE. That branch of J2a is particularly common in the Arabian peninsula today, but is also found in Greece. In Italy, most of the J2-PF5160 today falls under the Z438 > L70 > Z435 clade.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    They couldn't have been Beeker? I have heard that theory circulating as a suspicion. But am not knowledgeable enough to say.
    Afaik Beakers were IE, and from what I understand of L283 Bronze Age migrations they likely were IE. So the only thing that makes sense is a boat ride for these y haplo carriers from southern France/northern Italy into Sardiania.
    Apparently Sardinia in Late Copper Age received immigrants from Iberia and Southern France and later from North Italy / Tuscany who brought Beaker materials... In the Early Bronze Age further contacts with the coasts of Tuscany brought Polada cultural elements like undecorated pottery with axe handles.

    So it's likely that J2b L283 came during that period. However in the Nuragic AUTOSOMAL DNA there isn't steppe admixture so the contribution was minimal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Apparently Sardinia in Late Copper Age received immigrants from Iberia and Southern France and later from North Italy / Tuscany who brought Beaker materials... In the Early Bronze Age further contacts with the coasts of Tuscany brought Polada cultural elements like undecorated pottery with axe handles.

    So it's likely that J2b L283 came during that period. However in the Nuragic AUTOSOMAL DNA there isn't steppe admixture so the contribution was minimal

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    I see. The thing about autosomal is that within 6+ generations the steppe autosomal would fully dilute. And given the life expectancy you could expect 5 generations in 100 year period if not more. 2^6 = 64, so less than 2% steppe would survive if the individual was full Steppe autosomal, and I suspect they already were mixed by that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Are more samples coming out? Or different paper coming out?
    ISBA9: 9th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology June 1st-4th 2021

    Viminacium samples are coming out.

    1. Olalde Iñigo. Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    ISBA9: 9th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology June 1st-4th 2021

    Viminacium samples are coming out.

    1. Olalde Iñigo. Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire


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    Is this the samples leaked earlier on Anthro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Is this the samples leaked earlier on Anthro?
    I believe yes.


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    Despite the heterogeneity of the male markers in the Italian peninsula, Sardinia and Sicily, at least this paper serves to connect the Italian Bronze Age with the BBC in Germany and Czechia and with the Iron Age-Latins thanks to R1b-U152>L20- Those migrations from the north must have occurred in the early Bronze Age because the other northern-Italian BBs we have are P312 and at least their mitochondrial markers are Iberian. That genetic continuity could serve to link the Italo-Celtic with the Unetice culture. But there are still many mysteries to be solved such as finding out once and for all, the origin of the Etruscans and their NO-IE language, or the role played by R1b-Z2103, J2a-M410, J2b-L283 and other markers in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Despite the heterogeneity of the male markers in the Italian peninsula, Sardinia and Sicily, at least this paper serves to connect the Italian Bronze Age with the BBC in Germany and Czechia and with the Iron Age-Latins thanks to R1b-U152>L20- Those migrations from the north must have occurred in the early Bronze Age because the other northern-Italian BBs we have are P312 and at least their mitochondrial markers are Iberian. That genetic continuity could serve to link the Italo-Celtic with the Unetice culture. But there are still many mysteries to be solved such as finding out once and for all, the origin of the Etruscans and their NO-IE language, or the role played by R1b-Z2103, J2a-M410, J2b-L283 and other markers in Italy.
    what DNA do we have from Unetice?
    we have Y-DNA I2 but not R1b-P312
    I suspect they had some steppe DNA like Bell Beakers, but do we have autosomal Unetice?

    my guess is that R1b-P312 expanded from the northern part of the Carpatian Basin, and that Unetice were I2 who were influenced by continental Bell Beaker
    continental Bell Beaker may have been Italo-Celtic

    can you show the Iberian mtDNA in continental Bell Beaker?
    they could be the link between Iberian Bell Beaker and continental Bell Beaker

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    ISBA9: 9th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology June 1st-4th 2021

    Viminacium samples are coming out.

    1. Olalde Iñigo. Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire


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    that would be cool
    i hope they will release the paper and that it is not only a lecture .....
    beyond the high number of e-L618 and e-v13
    there is also 1 case of e-m123 individual ( could be e-m84>pf6751 or e-L791) if the leak was correct
    maybe he was a middle eastern auxiliary in viminacium (some of those places in roman empire were cosmopolitan)
    going to be interesting paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    They couldn't have been Beeker? I have heard that theory circulating as a suspicion. But am not knowledgeable enough to say.
    Afaik Beakers were IE, and from what I understand of L283 Bronze Age migrations they likely were IE. So the only thing that makes sense is a boat ride for these y haplo carriers from southern France/northern Italy into Sardiania.
    when would these neolithic migrations from Iberia/Southern France have happened?
    the thing is neolithic Sardegna, Iberia and S France were quite similar autosomal, so you need uniparentals to detect it
    to me, it seems Sardegna was a safe haven for some neolithic (megalithic) elite when Bell Beaker was taking over Iberia and France
    continental Bell Beaker (R1b with steppe) arrived quite late in Sardegna

    P.S. I haven't read yet the 2020 study on Nuragic mentioned above

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    some markers in Germany and Czechia-Unetice

    OBKR-80 (2.046 BC)- Königsbrunn-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-K1a3
    MX286 (1.960 BC)-Singen EBA-HapY-R1b-U152>L2-Mit-N1b1b
    I7202/Grave 94: (1.950 BC). Jinonice Czech Rp-Hap Y R1b-P312-U152-L2- Hap Mit-U5a1/a2b-Olalde, 2018
    AITI-72 (1.815 BC)-Kleinaitingen-HapY-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-J1c2/c2
    AITI-50 (1.812 BC)-Kleinaitingen-Lech Valley-HapY-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-J1c3
    AITI-43 (1.794 BC)- Kleinaitingen- HapY-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-X2b+226
    RISE471 (1.604 BC)-Untermeitingen-HapY-R1b-L2-Mit-J1c1/b-Allentoft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    some markers in Germany and Czechia-Unetice

    OBKR-80 (2.046 BC)- Königsbrunn-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-K1a3
    MX286 (1.960 BC)-Singen EBA-HapY-R1b-U152>L2-Mit-N1b1b
    I7202/Grave 94: (1.950 BC). Jinonice Czech Rp-Hap Y R1b-P312-U152-L2- Hap Mit-U5a1/a2b-Olalde, 2018
    AITI-72 (1.815 BC)-Kleinaitingen-HapY-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-J1c2/c2
    AITI-50 (1.812 BC)-Kleinaitingen-Lech Valley-HapY-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-J1c3
    AITI-43 (1.794 BC)- Kleinaitingen- HapY-R1b1a/2a1a/2b1-R1b-U152-L2-Mit-X2b+226
    RISE471 (1.604 BC)-Untermeitingen-HapY-R1b-L2-Mit-J1c1/b-Allentoft
    ok, interesting, can you give a link to the papers where thes were published?
    which was the Allentoft paper? the one on the Lech Valley?

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    The facts.
    Paper compares R1b-L51+ samples with elite Yamnaya-Kurgan burials mostly R1b-Z2109+ many kms67+(sample sample IO443-Z2105- and one I2 sample). It oddly parses the data and links Yamnaya with the ability for digesting gluten, and lipids compared to middle east farmers. In terms of gluten starch, one would have expected evolutionary farming communities consuming worry free(no reaction)gluten to have spread in early Italian farmers originating from Anatiolian farmers(wheat, rye, etc....) ,compare gene for dairy consumption in Europe.
    Aside from Latini tribe sample R1016-- R1b-Z2103 sample from Castel di Decima 900-700, bc there were no samples to compare phenotype (so far) connecting Yamnaya R1b-Z2109+ in this study. R1b Z2109 and R1b L51 are linked with common ancestor R1b-L23+. Even though R1b-L51+ has been found in early Corded Ware(PCW070-3890+/-YBP) and Afanasievo (I6222 3316-2918+/-) , no phenotype comparison was highlighted in this study with similar R1b L51 ydna lines.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/

    Bell Beakers are predominantly R1b-L51+ perhaps as high as 99% and they have varied phenotypes. The only R1b-Z2109 Bell Beakers are from Hungary, one with red hair and one with blonde.


    Yfull places R1b-L51 Corded Ware Poland and Afanasievo in different groupings compared to Iberian L51+.
    It would be nice to compare phenotype with similar L51 ancestry- Italy-Corded Ware-Afanasievo-steppe.
    Pro Innate immunity & Pro Vaxxer. Looking for the right Covid-Vax to compliment a strong innate immune system.

    H. event.


  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    what DNA do we have from Unetice?
    we have Y-DNA I2 but not R1b-P312
    I suspect they had some steppe DNA like Bell Beakers, but do we have autosomal Unetice?

    my guess is that R1b-P312 expanded from the northern part of the Carpatian Basin, and that Unetice were I2 who were influenced by continental Bell Beaker
    continental Bell Beaker may have been Italo-Celtic

    can you show the Iberian mtDNA in continental Bell Beaker?
    they could be the link between Iberian Bell Beaker and continental Bell Beaker

    The Beaker phenomenon and the genomic transformation of northwest Europe (2.018)-We only have three North Italian BBs and everybody knows that this culture in mainland italy, sardinia and sicily was a residual phenomenon that lasted only a short time.

    I2477/Tomb1-A: 2200–1930 (2.065 BC) -Via Guidorossi (Parma)[email protected]
    I2478/Tomb1-B: 2200–1930 (2.065 BC)-Via Guidorossi (Parma)-HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a2/a
    I1979/Tomb2, ind B: 2200–1930 (2.065 BC)-Via Guidorossi (Parma)-Female-Mit-T2b3

    Now look where these mitochondrial lineages are, none of them have been previously documented in Italy.

    [email protected]
    Cueva del Toro, Antequera, Málaga-Tor7/Tor6-5.030 BC
    Cueva de la Guineu, Barcelona, Calcolitico-I10287-2.950 BC
    Sima del Ángel, Córdoba, Calcolítico-I7587/I8149/I8148-2.700 BC
    Humanejos, BBC–I6539-2.251 BC

    T2b3-
    Iberia, Camino de las Yeseras, BBC-2.338 BC
    Francia, Dolmen de Villard, BBC-2.118 BC
    Italia, Via Guidorossi-Parma, BBC-2.065 BC
    Cerdeña, S’Iscia Esas Piras, BBC-Isc001- 2.167 BC
    Hungría-BA-RISE349-1.909 BC

    We have a few dozen mitochondrial markers shared by BB sites all over Europe, even in the eastern domain (Hungary, Czech Republic and Poland) - Iberian markers are very frequent in Germany and France, and some have also been documented in the British Isles. The BBC lasted a thousand years in Iberia and in that period of time there were hundreds of small migrations in different directions, but the western Mediterranean has Iberian markers in Occitania, Liguria, Sardinia, Sicily, etc...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    The facts.
    Paper compares R1b-L51+ samples with elite Yamnaya-Kurgan burials mostly R1b-Z2109+ many kms67+(sample sample IO443-L23+Z2105- and one I2 sample). It oddly parses the data and links Yamnaya with the ability for digesting gluten, and lipids compared to middle east farmers. In terms of gluten starch, one would have expected evolutionary farming communities consuming worry free(no reaction)gluten to have spread in early Italian farmers originating from Anatiolian farmers(wheat, rye, etc....) ,compare gene for dairy consumption in Europe.
    Aside from Latini tribe sample R1016-- R1b-Z2103 sample from Castel di Decima 900-700, bc there were no samples to compare phenotype (so far) connecting Yamnaya R1b-Z2109+ in this study. R1b Z2109 and R1b L51 are linked with common ancestor R1b-L23+. Even though R1b-L51+ has been found in early Corded Ware(PCW070-3890+/-YBP) and Afanasievo (I6222 3316-2918+/-) , no phenotype comparison was highlighted in this study with similar R1b L51 ydna lines.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L51/

    Bell Beakers are predominantly R1b-L51+ perhaps as high as 99% and they have varied phenotypes. The only R1b-Z2109 Bell Beakers are from Hungary, one with red hair and one with blonde.
    Im sorry but Afanasievo I6222 is a garbage sample, you have to keep looking

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    when would these neolithic migrations from Iberia/Southern France have happened?
    the thing is neolithic Sardegna, Iberia and S France were quite similar autosomal, so you need uniparentals to detect it
    to me, it seems Sardegna was a safe haven for some neolithic (megalithic) elite when Bell Beaker was taking over Iberia and France
    continental Bell Beaker (R1b with steppe) arrived quite late in Sardegna

    P.S. I haven't read yet the 2020 study on Nuragic mentioned above

    No Iberian BBs arrived in Sardinia at the time of the Monteclaro culture. You can read these papers if you are interested

    The Proboscidian ivory adorments from the hypogeum of Padru Jossu (Sanluri, Sardinia, Italy) and the Mediterranean Bell Beaker-Jose Miguel Morillo

    Los botones campaniformes Sardos y sus analogías con la península Ibérica y otras zonas del Mediterráneo-Claudia Pau (2.012)-

    The BB Iberian migrations are absolutely demonstrated also in northern Morocco, Sardinia and Sicily. In this last island we also have Iberian Df27, although in Sardinia R1b-M269>P312>df27 has not been found yet, it will surely end up appearing in some BBC site. And these Df27 can only be modeled with the Iberian BBs.

    Beaker_Northern_Italy_no_steppe:I2477 Via Guidorossi [email protected]1
    Distance 2.0004%
    49.9-Czech_MN
    39.3-Iberia_Southwest_CA
    8.3-Tisza_LN
    2.5-Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110

    Remember that P312 is only part of the BBC, other male markers are frequent and exogamy caused strong population movements.

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