Ancient genomes reveal structural shifts after the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry

There are over 600 inscriptions of the Messapic language in Italy, most densely concentrated in the heel. Their distribution is in the image below.

Messapic was a non-Italic, non-Greek, non-Germanic, language.

These regions where these inscriptions appear are the regions that are most densely concentrated with E-V13 today. This is modern distribution, so it must be taken with a grain of salt, but nonetheless very relevant to the question of E-V13's entry in Italy.

I think not considering Messapics is not warranted by the evidence. They are much more likely than Ostrogoths to have brought it.


From Austrian linguist, who studied paleo-balkan languages and old Albanian, in 2018:


"Albanian is closely related to Illyrian and Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy but originally of Balkan origin)"


Page 1790
Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics
Joachim Matzinger
2018



Ez4wkQxWUAEorjG


sound logic you are correct
that people should also consider that as a possible source
for spread of e-v13 to italy
but what would explain the 10% e-v13 in lombardia ?
 
Data Table S6D, tab B is fabulous. You can compare all the Italian samples both to the Near East and Yamnaya for each and every phenotype allele, from starch digestion, to resistance to diseases as well as the ever popular ***mentation.

Interesting indeed as far as ***mentation goes, as well.

Copper Age Italians had more SLC45A2 than Yamnaya... 63 versus 44. In fact, it declined in Italy after the arrival of the steppe people. They also had more SLC 24A4 and SLC 24A5.

For OCA2, it's about even for 3, neither has one of them, and Yamnaya has more of one variety.

HERC 2 is a little different. One neither has. Yamnaya has more, but they are also present in significant numbers in Copper Age Italy.

The bizarre thing which I can't explain is that these de-***mentation snps where supposedly the Yamnaya did have higher numbers, like HERC 2 and a few OCA2, went DOWN in Italy after the arrival of the steppe people.

Did a particularly dark subgroup of steppe admixed people invade Italy in the Bronze Age, or did these researchers also make the mistake of including Sintashta like people, i.e. people who had gone east after picking up de-***mentation snps in Europe?

Does anyone know?

Take a look at the prediction sheet, i.e. tab D.

It makes no sense. People with the de***mentation snps which the Neolithic Italians had could not have had dark to black skin. Shades of the Greek paper! I don't know what group another poster had in mind when he called them "intermediate" in tone.

Strangely enough, the Northern and Central Italian Neolithic samples are, on the whole, darker than the Sicilian and Sardinian Bronze Age.

Yamnaya has more positives for some of the many MCIR alleles, but not all.

Northern Italy Chalcolithic is mixed intermediate and dark to dark to Black. Bronze Age Central and Northern Italy is intermediate, but the ***mentation is mixed in Sicily and Sardinia during the Bronze Age. How people predicted to be a mix of intermediate and dark peoples could "lighten" the Bronze Age is beyond me. Plus, given those snps I don't see how the Yamnaya could have any intermediate people. They don't have most of the skin de***mentation alleles. Perhaps, as I said above, they're including Sintashta samples. Or, the Bell Beakers picked up light skin alleles from a different part of LN Europe.

As for Iron Age Republican Rome, one sample is dark and one mixed intermediate to dark; the rest are intermediate. Only one of the samples is predicted to have brown/dark blonde hair.

The Empire is mostly intermediate with some "dark" samples. The first blonde, pale skinned sample shows up during the Empire and then during Antiquity. I would say travelers to Rome.

Very interesting that Anatolia Neolithic is much lighter than Italian Neolithic. Mixture with WHG? Even the Anatolian AND Jordanian Bronze Age are a mix between Intermediate and dark, like all of Chalcolithic Italy, and Bronze Age Sicily and Sardinia.

Were the people from the Caucasus bringing the darker phenotypes?

A lot of certainties overthrown in this paper, and it's clear to me we really don't understand the selection for pale skin and what drove it. What's clear is that it's recent.
 
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sound logic you are correct
that people should also consider that as a possible source
for spread of e-v13 to italy
but what would explain the 10% e-v13 in lombardia ?

I agree with Maciamo's reasoning that it probably didn't come all in one group only, and there has already been actual lombards tested
Positive for ev13, so we know they at least had some. I just think Messapics should be taken into account also. Whether goths brought it or integrated a local lineage i dont know. But i more or less agree that ev13 probably only started expanding big time in late bronze age to early iron age, with maybe a few branches in the balkans spreading a bit earlier (middle bronze age).
 
I quickly skimmed through this study. For those who are interested in the phenotype of Copper and Bronze Age Italians. The authors conclude that CA and BA North and Central Italians were intermediate, thus moderately white with brown eyes and hair. That said, individuals that had dark blond or blond hair with blue eyes were found among Copper Age and Bronze Age Italians, too. Furthermore, the variant rs16891982, linked to darker eyes and hair, decreased in Central Italy after the Copper Age, and in the BA and the post-Roman Republic among the Italian groups. Besides, also interesting to note that J2a was detected in the La Sassa samples from the Chalcolithic period ! As far as I remember the one Etruscan male from the Roman paper was J2a too. In the BA samples R1b-DF90 and R-P312 were found. However, this study had some issues with failed C14 dating.

Think it was L283 actually.
 
Data Table S6D, tab B is fabulous. You can compare all the Italian samples both to the Near East and Yamnaya for each and every phenotype allele, from starch digestion, to resistance to diseases as well as the ever popular ***mentation.

Interesting indeed as far as ***mentation goes, as well.

Copper Age Italians had more SLC45A2 than Yamnaya... 63 versus 44. In fact, it declined in Italy after the arrival of the steppe people. They also had more SLC 24A4 and SLC 24A5.

For OCA2, it's about even for 3, neither has one of them, and Yamnaya has more of one variety.

HERC 2 is a little different. One neither has. Yamnaya has more, but they are also present in significant numbers in Copper Age Italy.

The bizarre thing which I can't explain is that these de-***mentation snps where supposedly the Yamnaya did have higher numbers, like HERC 2 and a few OCA2, went DOWN in Italy after the arrival of the steppe people.

Did a particularly dark subgroup of steppe admixed people invade Italy in the Bronze Age, or did these researchers also make the mistake of including Sintashta like people, i.e. people who had gone east after picking up de-***mentation snps in Europe?

Does anyone know?

Take a look at the prediction sheet, i.e. tab D.

It makes no sense. People with the de***mentation snps which the Neolithic Italians had could not have had dark to black skin. Shades of the Greek paper! I don't know what group another poster had in mind when he called them "intermediate" in tone.

Strangely enough, the Northern and Central Italian Neolithic samples are, on the whole, darker than the Sicilian and Sardinian Bronze Age.



In OCA2, Maybe that's why they dropped from the "fair" skin predicted for Otzi, and the "intermediate" predicted for Bronze Age Italy.


Yamnaya has more positives for some of the many MCIR alleles, and

The authors conclusions and interpreation of the data:


The fourth variant significant in both tests (rs16891982 in SLC45A2 gene) is implicated in hair and eye ***mentation. In terms of physical appearance, both the Chalcolithic and BA Italy groups have imputed phenotypes more similar to IA and Later Romans than to earlierpopulations in Italy and the Near East. The three previously published M****ithic individuals from Italy13,27,29 are predicted to have dark skin, dark hair, and blue eyes (Data S6D), although most of the other samples have predicted intermediate skin ***mentation, brown hair, and brown eyes; however, individuals with blue eyes paired with either dark or blond hair are also predicted in all time periods except in the N individuals from Central Italy (Data S6D).13 The variant rs16891982, linked to darker eyes and hair, shows asignificant difference between post-BA Italy group and previous groups from Italy, with the frequency decreasing in Central Italy starting in the newly reported Chalcolithic individuals and with the lowest values observed for the newly reported BA individuals and the post-Roman Republic Central Italy group. This difference is particularly notable compared to N Central Italy and Sardinian groupsprior to the BA (Data S6C)
 
Great! Finally some Chalcolithic Italian DNA.


Here are the locations of the samples.

gr1.jpg


There are two J2a samples from La Sassa. Both are J2a1-L26 > PF5087 > PF5160 and both date from c. 2840–2500 cal BCE. That branch of J2a is particularly common in the Arabian peninsula today, but is also found in Greece. In Italy, most of the J2-PF5160 today falls under the Z438 > L70 > Z435 clade.

J2-PF5160-tree.png


There are a lot of Sardinian samples not out yet from what I understood from the graphic. I am very interested in the Nuragics.
 
There are a lot of Sardinian samples not out yet from what I understood from the graphic. I am very interested in the Nuragics.


Genetics[edit]

A genetic study published in Nature Communications in February 2020 examined the remains of 17 individuals identified with Nuragic civilization. The samples of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup I2a1b1 (2 samples), R1b1b2a, G2a2b2b1a1, R1b1b (4 samples), J2b2a1 (3 samples) and G2a2b2b1a1a, while the samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to various types of haplogroup T, V, H, J, K and U.[70] The study found strong evidence of genetic continuity between Nuragic civilization and earlier Neolithic inhabitants of Sardinia, who were genetically similar to Neolithic peoples of Iberia and southern France.[71] They were determined to be of about 80% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry and 20% Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry.[72] They were predicted to be largely descended from peoples of the Neolithic Cardial Ware culture, which spread throughout the western Mediterranean in Southern Europe c. 5500 BC.[73] The Nuragic people were strongly differentiated from other Bronze Age peoples of Europe by the near absence of steppe-related ancestry.[71]



source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7039977/


 
J2b2a1 is not Cardial culture. There must have been some post neolithic immigration, but I don't know from where... Material culture say North Italy (Polada) but no R1b m269 has been found yet

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The authors conclusions and interpreation of the data:


I'd love to know where I contradicted that. If you go back and read my post you'll see that I never mentioned BLUE EYES. I talked about pale skin or blond hair.

Feel free to show me the sample of pale skin and/or blond hair in any of the Bronze Age samples from Italy. Just give me the number. It's possible one that might exist. It's a long chart.

As for how many are intermediate in the Bronze Age if that's what you're talking about, in the Sardinian Bronze Age there are 32 samples, of which 15 are darker than intermediate. That seems about an even split to me.

In Bronze Age Sicily there are nine samples. Of those, six are darker than intermediate.

Central Northern Italy Bronze Age they have six samples. All are intermediate.

In the Chalcolithic, they have nine samples, of which five are darker than intermediate. One, interesting, is pale/intermediate.

In the Antonio samples from the same period, of which there are ten, six are darker.

In the Central Italian Neolithic from Antonio et al, of which there are ten samples, only one is intermediate. The Anatolian Neolithic is lighter.

In the Sicilian Neolithic of which there are four samples, two are dark, two are intermediate. One of the intermediate skinned ones has blonde hair.

No light haired people in the Copper/Chalcolithic or Bronze Age of the mainland or Sicily. It next shows up, strangely enough, in Bronze Age Sardinia, where they predict four dark blonde/intermediate skinned people. That's a surprise.

In Iron Age Italy, there's one blonde out of 13 samples.

So far, no pale skinned people, like Otzi, anywhere that I can see except that one pale/intermediate in the Chalcolithic.

In the Empire, one red head, and 5 blondes.

In Yamnaya, no blondes, and of the 17 samples, seven are darker than intermediate. I don't even know, given the their lack of SLC 24A5, SLC24A4, and SLC 45A2 how any of them are intermediate, unless Russia is loosely used and there are some Sintashta like samples in there.

So, in making sure one is interpreting a few sentences in the summary of a paper correctly, I always think it's a good idea to look at their charts.
 
I'd love to know where I contradicted that. If you go back and read my post you'll see that I never mentioned BLUE EYES. I talked about pale skin or blond hair.

Feel free to show me the sample of pale skin and/or blond hair in any of the Bronze Age samples from Italy. Just give me the number. It's possible one that might exist. It's a long chart.

As for how many are intermediate in the Bronze Age if that's what you're talking about, in the Sardinian Bronze Age there are 32 samples, of which 15 are darker than intermediate. That seems about an even split to me.

In Bronze Age Sicily there are nine samples. Of those, six are darker than intermediate.

Central Northern Italy Bronze Age they have six samples. All are intermediate.

In the Chalcolithic, they have nine samples, of which five are darker than intermediate. One, interesting, is pale/intermediate.

In the Antonio samples from the same period, of which there are ten, six are darker.

In the Central Italian Neolithic from Antonio et al, of which there are ten samples, only one is intermediate. The Anatolian Neolithic is lighter.

In the Sicilian Neolithic of which there are four samples, two are dark, two are intermediate. One of the intermediate skinned ones has blonde hair.

No light haired people in the Copper/Chalcolithic or Bronze Age of the mainland or Sicily. It next shows up, strangely enough, in Bronze Age Sardinia, where they predict four dark blonde/intermediate skinned people. That's a surprise.

In Iron Age Italy, there's one blonde out of 13 samples.

So far, no pale skinned people, like Otzi, anywhere that I can see except that one pale/intermediate in the Chalcolithic.

In the Empire, one red head, and 5 blondes.

In Yamnaya, no blondes, and of the 17 samples, seven are darker than intermediate. I don't even know, given the their lack of SLC 24A5, SLC24A4, and SLC 45A2 how any of them are intermediate, unless Russia is loosely used and there are some Sintashta like samples in there.

So, in making sure one is interpreting a few sentences in the summary of a paper correctly, I always think it's a good idea to look at their charts.


I didn‘t misinterpret the authors' claims but quoted their conclusion straight from the paper. Plus, I didn't mention pale skin at all. So, where did I claim, that CA or BA Italians were pale-skinned? I politely ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. And we already had a discussion about BA Greek paper where we came to the conclusion that "dark" in that context isn't that dark, and that dark to black doesn't translate into SSA complexion. Besides, I just wanted to point out that blond hair and blue eyes were not uncommon in Italy even during the BA. That's all.
 
Genetics[edit]

A genetic study published in Nature Communications in February 2020 examined the remains of 17 individuals identified with Nuragic civilization. The samples of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup I2a1b1 (2 samples), R1b1b2a, G2a2b2b1a1, R1b1b (4 samples), J2b2a1 (3 samples) and G2a2b2b1a1a, while the samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to various types of haplogroup T, V, H, J, K and U.[70] The study found strong evidence of genetic continuity between Nuragic civilization and earlier Neolithic inhabitants of Sardinia, who were genetically similar to Neolithic peoples of Iberia and southern France.[71] They were determined to be of about 80% Early European Farmer (EEF) ancestry and 20% Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry.[72] They were predicted to be largely descended from peoples of the Neolithic Cardial Ware culture, which spread throughout the western Mediterranean in Southern Europe c. 5500 BC.[73] The Nuragic people were strongly differentiated from other Bronze Age peoples of Europe by the near absence of steppe-related ancestry.[71]



source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7039977/



I am aware of that. Exactly why I am so interested in the many Sardinian samples in this study. Since the biggest open question for L283 are the 1300 bc Nuragic basal subbranches of l283. Who most certainly weren't Neolithic, and had to be bronze age immigrants in the area.
 
J2b2a1 is not Cardial culture. There must have been some post neolithic immigration, but I don't know from where... Material culture say North Italy (Polada) but no R1b m269 has been found yet

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They couldn't have been Beeker? I have heard that theory circulating as a suspicion. But am not knowledgeable enough to say.
Afaik Beakers were IE, and from what I understand of L283 Bronze Age migrations they likely were IE. So the only thing that makes sense is a boat ride for these y haplo carriers from southern France/northern Italy into Sardiania.
 
I am aware of that. Exactly why I am so interested in the many Sardinian samples in this study. Since the biggest open question for L283 are the 1300 bc Nuragic basal subbranches of l283. Who most certainly weren't Neolithic, and had to be bronze age immigrants in the area.

Cool :cool-v:
Do you know on a futuer paper with new sardinian samples?
 
Cool :cool-v:
Do you know on a futuer paper with new sardinian samples?

No. But if what Maciamo shared with the graphic are samples where these samples in the paper came from, there are 30-40 Sardinian samples from the bronze age somewhere.

gr1.jpg


And then someone mentioned June 1st... So...

I cant find enough information to clarify if the rest of the samples are coming out, or if I misunderstood something.

On June 1, E-V13 will show up, wait and see.
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Great! Finally some Chalcolithic Italian DNA.
Here are the locations of the samples.

gr1.jpg


There are two J2a samples from La Sassa. Both are J2a1-L26 > PF5087 > PF5160 and both date from c. 2840–2500 cal BCE. That branch of J2a is particularly common in the Arabian peninsula today, but is also found in Greece. In Italy, most of the J2-PF5160 today falls under the Z438 > L70 > Z435 clade.

J2-PF5160-tree.png
 
They couldn't have been Beeker? I have heard that theory circulating as a suspicion. But am not knowledgeable enough to say.
Afaik Beakers were IE, and from what I understand of L283 Bronze Age migrations they likely were IE. So the only thing that makes sense is a boat ride for these y haplo carriers from southern France/northern Italy into Sardiania.
Apparently Sardinia in Late Copper Age received immigrants from Iberia and Southern France and later from North Italy / Tuscany who brought Beaker materials... In the Early Bronze Age further contacts with the coasts of Tuscany brought Polada cultural elements like undecorated pottery with axe handles.

So it's likely that J2b L283 came during that period. However in the Nuragic AUTOSOMAL DNA there isn't steppe admixture so the contribution was minimal

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Apparently Sardinia in Late Copper Age received immigrants from Iberia and Southern France and later from North Italy / Tuscany who brought Beaker materials... In the Early Bronze Age further contacts with the coasts of Tuscany brought Polada cultural elements like undecorated pottery with axe handles.

So it's likely that J2b L283 came during that period. However in the Nuragic AUTOSOMAL DNA there isn't steppe admixture so the contribution was minimal

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I see. The thing about autosomal is that within 6+ generations the steppe autosomal would fully dilute. And given the life expectancy you could expect 5 generations in 100 year period if not more. 2^6 = 64, so less than 2% steppe would survive if the individual was full Steppe autosomal, and I suspect they already were mixed by that point.
 
Are more samples coming out? Or different paper coming out?

ISBA9: 9th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology June 1st-4th 2021

Viminacium samples are coming out.

1. Olalde Iñigo. Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire


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ISBA9: 9th International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology June 1st-4th 2021

Viminacium samples are coming out.

1. Olalde Iñigo. Human mobility at the Roman Danubian Limes before and after the fall of the Empire


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Is this the samples leaked earlier on Anthro?
 

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