Ancient genomes reveal structural shifts after the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry

You have a point here. I used sloppy, loose wording since to me Sardinia is Italy. And when I said blond hair wasn‘t uncommon in BA Italy, I meant that is not impossible for ancient Italians to be blond. Next time I´ll try to be more precise in my usage of language. Anyways, it's a bit ironic that the researchers found in Sardinia that today has the lowest frequency of blond hair and blue eyes compared to other Italian regions, the only blond blue-eyed BA individuals. Plus, it is intriguing that blond hair and/or blue eyes weren't paired with pale skin among these BA individuals.

Yes, it's all very intriguing.

We don't have a lot of samples, though, and none from the western, Mediterranean side, so maybe more light haired and light eyed people will turn up then.

This is what I meant. Go to these links and you'll see that indeed light eyed Italians are pretty common in my parts of Italy. Neither my brother or I got those traits, although my father was fair haired until his thirties, and had green eyes. Indeed, both his parents and all 11 siblings were light eyed, although some had fair hair, some red hair like my grandfather, and a few had brownish red hair. I think part of it was founder effect in a small isolated mountain village. At least that's what Cavalli-Sforza thought when he studied the Val Parma and Val Cedra.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-Toscana?highlight=Phenotypes+eastern+Liguria

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...Appennino-Reggiano?highlight=People+Appennino
 
I think the Polada culture might be a good candidate for the new arrivals from north of the Alps. (approximately 2200 to 1500 BC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

A bit further south in Emilia there is the Terramare culture which is Middle Bronze Age. It would be great to have samples from there as well to see if they are different both in origin, coming perhaps from southern France, or just more admixed? (1700–1150 B C)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terramare_culture

These cultures also fell perhaps because of climate change, over use of the earth, and/or more migration from the north? It's too early for Gauls entering northern Italy and no culture took the place of the Terramare in Emilia so perhaps no new migration was involved. Emilia would then be the product, I suppose of Gauls and Latins.

This is from Wiki, so not the last word.

"
Around 1200 BC a serious crisis began for the Terramare culture that within a few years led to the abandonment of all the settlements; the reasons for this crisis, roughly contemporaneous with the Late Bronze Age collapse in the eastern Mediterranean, are still not entirely clear. It seems possible that in the face of an incipient overpopulation (between 150,000 and 200,000 individuals were calculated) and depletion of natural resources, a series of drought periods led to a deep economic crisis, famine, and consequently the disruption of the political order, which caused the collapse of society. Around 1150 BC the TerramareTwere completely abandoned, with no settlements replacing them. The plains, especially in the area of Emilia, were abandoned for several centuries, and only in the Roman era they regain the density of population reached during the Terramare period.It has been suggested that the memory of the fate of the Terramare culture may have lasted for centuries, until it was recorded by Dionysius of Halicarnassus, in his first book on the Roman Antiquities, as the fate of the Pelasgians. In his record the Pelasgians occupied the Po Valley up to two generations before the Trojan War, but were forced, by a series of famines of which they could not understand the reason, nor to which find a solution, to leave their once-fertile land and move to the south, where they merged with the Aborigines.[10]"

Well, I certainly doubt they were Pelasgians.
 
The Terramare are the result of the colonization of the Po Plain by people coming from the Polada area, north Western Italy, from the Appenninic culture and probably from the Pannonian plain. So according to archeology a mixed origin

In questo momento sembrano convergere verso la pianura padana centrale diverse componenti “culturali”, dall’area palafitticola settentrionale (cultura di Polada), dall’ambito peninsulare (facies di Grotta Nuova), dall’area occidentale (Piemonte meridionale, Pavese, Liguria), e forse anche dall’area danubiana.
Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk
 
Yes, it's all very intriguing.

We don't have a lot of samples, though, and none from the western, Mediterranean side, so maybe more light haired and light eyed people will turn up then.

This is what I meant. Go to these links and you'll see that indeed light eyed Italians are pretty common in my parts of Italy. Neither my brother or I got those traits, although my father was fair haired until his thirties, and had green eyes. Indeed, both his parents and all 11 siblings were light eyed, although some had fair hair, some red hair like my grandfather, and a few had brownish red hair. I think part of it was founder effect in a small isolated mountain village. At least that's what Cavalli-Sforza thought when he studied the Val Parma and Val Cedra.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-Toscana?highlight=Phenotypes+eastern+Liguria

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...Appennino-Reggiano?highlight=People+Appennino


Let‘s speculate just for fun here. Do you expect that more predictions for pale skin will show up in possible Iron or BA Italy studies? Actually, the phenotype prediction for BA or CA Italy is not completely unexpected, although I thought to see more of the intermediate to pale category. The phenotype results for BA Italy I expected for BA Greece, too. On the contrary, BA Aegaens turned out to be even darker than BA Jordans that are genetically very close to modern Arab Bedouins. In terms of unusual pairing.
I have seen "ghostly white" Irish folks with very dark brown nearly black-looking hair with blue or brown eyes, too.
By the way: Do you have any idea what category modern Italians mostly score on HIrisPlex S?



 
Let‘s speculate just for fun here. Do you expect that more predictions for pale skin will show up in possible Iron or BA Italy studies? Actually, the phenotype prediction for BA or CA Italy is not completely unexpected, although I thought to see more of the intermediate to pale category. The phenotype results for BA Italy I expected for BA Greece, too. On the contrary, BA Aegaens turned out to be even darker than BA Jordans that are genetically very close to modern Arab Bedouins. In terms of unusual pairing.
I have seen "ghostly white" Irish folks with very dark brown nearly black-looking hair with blue or brown eyes, too.
By the way: Do you have any idea what category modern Italians mostly score on HIrisPlex S?




I'm not sure. All of the Iron Age samples are from Central Italy. It's possible that Iron Age samples from much further north will turn out to have more pale people.

It's odd, isn't it, that there isn't a "very pale" person until Late Antiquity, and who knows if he or she was a local.

I asked somewhere up thread if anyone knows if the Bell Beaker alleles were all put into the same Hirisplex. It would have to be all the same ones or the comparison wouldn't be valid.

This is sheer speculation, but perhaps the difference between the Italian and Greek Bronze Age in terms of ***mentation, in addition to the fact that the Greeks had more Caucasus/Iran Neo at that time than the Italians might be because the Indo-Europeans who invaded might have come from different areas?

Is it possible that the last Yamnaya/Catacomb, whatever, on the steppe who went into Greece also weren't very light, whereas the Bell Beakers (and Corded Ware) mixed with lighter ***mented people from, say, Globular Amphora or areas closer to Cucuteni?

As I said, just speculation.

As for Italian results, I really have never asked anyone except my husband, sister-in-law, children etc. I'm predicted by 23andme to be "very pale" but with no freckles. It's like a bottle of milk made flesh. :) In southern Italy they call it mozzarella skin. Even in the mountains of Parma there aren't many people as pale as I am. Yet my hair and eyes are very dark brown. The only people I've seen with that combination are some "Celtic Fringe" types. In Italy, if you're that pale you usually have paler eyes and hair. You can see my picture on my profile. My brother isn't as pale, but has reddish brown hair and lighter brown eyes.

Michele Dockery:
Michelle-Dockery-6.jpg


The skin of her face is darker because of the make-up, but you can see the actual color of her skin. Without the make-up she'd look like Morticia from "The Adams Family". Every imperfection, every vein shows.

For me it says "[h=2]your genetics make you most likely to have lighter skin."[/h]
Fair enough, since 60% of the people with my profile at 23andme report they are "very fair" and I'm derived for both SLC24A4 and 5 and SLC4502

My husband's is just wrong. It says"[h=2]your genetics make you most likely to have lighter skin.[/h]
Yet this is how people with his profile at 23andme describe themselves:
"39% light beige, 24% moderately fair, 16% olive and 15% very fair.. "
Clearly, people have no idea what they look like. I'd say he's between olive skinned and moderately fair. He is derived for both alleles for the 24A4/5 area, but is heterogeneous for SLC45A2. Btw, he's Calabrian and Neapolitan and has skin like Raoul Bova.

It gives the same prediction for my daughter, yet her skin is in between that of the two of us.

As in, people with her profile report 39% moderately fair, 32% very fair, 25% light beige, and 6% olive skin. If I had to describe her skin color I'd say moderately fair to light beige.

You can't bet on 23andme for traits, clearly. For example, it says she has dark brown hair and yet she was blonde until she was 18 and it's now very light brown. It also predicts wavy hair and it's stick straight baby fine hair. It also says that my husband, who has a pronounced cleft chin, absolutely doesn't have one, and his incredibly thick head of hair is thin!

You'd have to use Hirisplex to compare to these Italian ancient samples, which would mean hunting through your raw data for all the alleles. I've never cared enough to do it. I know I'm very fair. What I see in the mirror and photos and two hospital visits for blisters and sun poisoning prove it.
 
@Angela,

I think these upcoming studies if they include phenotype prediction, will seal pretty much the deal in terms of the average phenotype of ancient Romans/Italics:



Modi Alessandra et al. Genomic and anthropological analysis on the human skeletal remains recovered in the House with Garden in Pompeii, Italy.


Zaro Valentina et al. Unrevealing the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations.



As you said the BA Italy and Greece papers appear to have overthrown certainties. Ötzi a copper Age EEF man is pale but zero BA Italians who are large of ANF/EEF stock as Ötzi, are pale. To me, it's a bit odd, that BA Jordans who were half Natufian (that likely lacked SLC45A2 and SLC24A5) and part Iran Neo, were lighter than BA Greeks who at least carried the derived SLC24A5.
 


This is from Wiki, so not the last word.

"
Around 1200 BC a serious crisis began for the Terramare culture that within a few years led to the abandonment of all the settlements; the reasons for this crisis, roughly contemporaneous with the Late Bronze Age collapse in the eastern Mediterranean, are still not entirely clear. It seems possible that in the face of an incipient overpopulation (between 150,000 and 200,000 individuals were calculated) and depletion of natural resources, a series of drought periods led to a deep economic crisis, famine, and consequently the disruption of the political order, which caused the collapse of society. Around 1150 BC the TerramareTwere completely abandoned, with no settlements replacing them. The plains, especially in the area of Emilia, were abandoned for several centuries, and only in the Roman era they regain the density of population reached during the Terramare period.It has been suggested that the memory of the fate of the Terramare culture may have lasted for centuries, until it was recorded by Dionysius of Halicarnassus, in his first book on the Roman Antiquities, as the fate of the Pelasgians. In his record the Pelasgians occupied the Po Valley up to two generations before the Trojan War, but were forced, by a series of famines of which they could not understand the reason, nor to which find a solution, to leave their once-fertile land and move to the south, where they merged with the Aborigines.[10]"

Well, I certainly doubt they were Pelasgians.

This paragraph is all based on the speculations of a chapter written 12 years ago by Andrea Cardarelli who teaches Prehistory and Protohistory in Rome. The attempt to reconcile the archaeological record with the accounts of Greek authors has not been taken very seriously in Italy.

There is also the hypothesis that the population of Terramare, descended from the pile-dwellers of the Alps who assimilated migratory waves of Steppe-related ancestry during the Bronze Age, moved further south and gave life to the Etruscan civilization. Also this hypothesis at the current state is considered indemonstrable.
 
Hmm, strangely the samples do not populate, I've tried several different browsers:

9Z6lsw9.png


I will continue to monitor the study, to see if they do eventually.



https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB37660


... just a test, ... 1 by 4 locations:

I'm not sure my apps are fully compatible with these .bam(s), … that's all the samples I'm gonna post :)

dod k12
Code:
BRC003_Dodecad_K12b,1.48,0.00,2.35,1.33,46.70,24.27,0.00,0.00,5.74,0.00,17.40,0.74
GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b,2.18,0.00,3.15,3.26,44.50,29.77,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00,11.87,0.00
GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,1.77,4.40,0.00,58.27,5.15,0.00,0.00,11.05,0.22,17.72,1.41
LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,62.94,2.45,0.00,0.00,6.28,0.00,26.23,2.11

dod k13
Code:
BRC003_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.00,7.15,2.00,46.64,0.00,0.00,6.54,36.15,0.00,0.00
GCP002A1_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.06,0.56,0.00,7.87,2.46,41.92,0.00,0.36,7.63,39.13,0.00,0.00
GLR001A1_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,2.04,0.00,13.48,0.00,59.66,0.13,0.96,4.05,19.69,0.00,0.00
LSC002_004_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.15,14.88,0.00,62.80,0.28,0.00,2.48,17.88,0.00,0.00
 
Very nice Salento. Good job. (y) Many Thanks. :) It seems that they make available all the samples that was used in the study, I think.

Playing with the coordinates that you have produced for Dod K12b

Distance to:Duarte
9.78898360BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
10.11679297GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
26.71058966GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
33.49170942LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b

Added Global 13 results

Distance to:Duarte
6.83849399BRC003_Dod_Globe13
8.60929730GCP002A1_Dod_Globe13
22.74697782GLR001A1_Dod_Globe13
26.80190105LSC002_004_Dod_Globe13

Edit: Added Dod Global 13 results
 
Last edited:
Very nice Salento. Good job. (y) Many Thanks. :) It seems that they make available all the samples that was used in the study, I think.

Playing with the coordinates that you have produced for Dod K12b

Distance to:Duarte
9.78898360BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
10.11679297GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
26.71058966GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
33.49170942LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b

my Laptop is very hot and it’s making a lot of noise, It's turning into a coal and steam-powered device, LOL

… I had to stop … :)
 
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB37660


... just a test, ... 1 by 4 locations:

I'm not sure my apps are fully compatible with these .bam(s), … that's all the samples I'm gonna post :)

dod k12
Code:
BRC003_Dodecad_K12b,1.48,0.00,2.35,1.33,46.70,24.27,0.00,0.00,5.74,0.00,17.40,0.74
GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b,2.18,0.00,3.15,3.26,44.50,29.77,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00,11.87,0.00
GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,1.77,4.40,0.00,58.27,5.15,0.00,0.00,11.05,0.22,17.72,1.41
LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,62.94,2.45,0.00,0.00,6.28,0.00,26.23,2.11

dod k13
Code:
BRC003_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.00,7.15,2.00,46.64,0.00,0.00,6.54,36.15,0.00,0.00
GCP002A1_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.06,0.56,0.00,7.87,2.46,41.92,0.00,0.36,7.63,39.13,0.00,0.00
GLR001A1_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,2.04,0.00,13.48,0.00,59.66,0.13,0.96,4.05,19.69,0.00,0.00
LSC002_004_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.15,14.88,0.00,62.80,0.28,0.00,2.48,17.88,0.00,0.00

I am out of upvotes unfortunately, but great work!
 
My results form Salento's coordinates - post #68

Dodecad k12b

Distance to:Dodecadk12bStuvanè
16.23555666BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
19.21595171GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
32.83604879GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
37.20668623LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b



Dodecad Global k13

Distance to:Dodecad_Glob_13Stuvanè
13.08876236GCP002A1_Dod_Globe13
14.86563487BRC003_Dod_Globe13
27.41710597GLR001A1_Dod_Globe13
31.35444147LSC002_004_Dod_Globe13

 
Special thanks to Salento for putting this on my radar:

Of the 35 samples, these are the ones that processed through Admixture Studio.

Code:
utigBRC002,0.87,0,1.36,0,45.47,25.27,2.32,0,4.39,0,18.99,1.33
utigBRC007_019,3.5,0,1.75,0.58,48.28,18.96,0,0,9.11,0.52,16.2,1.1
utigBRC010_018,0,0,5.13,0.5,47.79,19.51,0,0,7.86,0,18.69,0.51
utigBRC011,0,0,0,0,37.8,0,0,0,42.9,0,19.29,0
utigBRC012,0,15.45,0,0,40.8,0,0,0,43.74,0,0,0
utigBRC013,0,0,6.28,0,57.75,0,0,0,6.97,0,29,0
utigBRC022,0,0,0,0.94,62.87,3.14,0,0,10.14,0,22.91,0
utigBRC024,0,0,0,0,52.32,30.37,0,5.35,0,0,10.84,1.12
utigGCP002A1,2.18,0,3.15,3.26,44.5,29.77,0,0,5.27,0,11.87,0
utigGCP003A1,7.58,1.55,0.86,0,49.29,22.95,0,0,4.32,0,13.45,0
utigGCP004A1,22.15,0,0,0,37.5,23.7,6.64,0,10.01,0,0,0
utigGLR002A1,0,0,6.65,0,63.81,1.89,0,0,5.79,0,21.86,0
utigGLR003B1,0,0,9.49,4.97,65.66,0,0,0,0,0,17.94,1.93
utigLSC002_004,0,0,0,0,62.94,2.45,0,0,6.28,0,26.23,2.11
utigLSC007A1,0,0,0,0,95.95,0,0,0.6,3.45,0,0,0
utigLSC011A1,0,0,8.94,0,53.32,7.47,0,0,14.31,0,15.96,0
utigLSC012A1,0,0,0,0,97.48,0,0,0,0,2.52,0,0
 
Distance to:Jovialis
24.23364191utigBRC002
24.50769063utigBRC010_018
25.19881743utigBRC007_019
28.33623475utigGCP003A1
29.20885140utigGCP002A1
32.45145605utigLSC011A1
34.79059643utigBRC013
36.68286248utigBRC024
36.70430492utigGCP004A1
38.53500097utigLSC002_004
38.62985374utigBRC022
40.37478421utigGLR002A1
41.38266908utigBRC011
45.28618001utigGLR003B1
54.02423253utigBRC012
76.63677446utigLSC007A1
78.36312653utigLSC012A1

Not close to any of them.
 
Thanks so much Jovialis and Salento

Distance to:Duarte
9.78898360BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
10.11679297GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
10.11679297utigGCP002A1
10.54973459utigGCP003A1
10.87721012utigBRC002
11.62877896utigBRC007_019
12.25319550utigBRC010_018
16.38538678utigBRC024
23.68935415utigLSC011A1
24.67529736utigGCP004A1
26.71058966GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
32.59964570utigBRC022
32.60495208utigGLR002A1
33.24604187utigBRC013
33.49170942LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
33.49170942utigLSC002_004
34.51189070utigGLR003B1
47.24747189utigBRC011
51.41298863utigBRC012
60.74051119utigLSC007A1
62.26290790utigLSC012A1

Distance to:Duarte
7.5312638279.00% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b + 21.00% utigGCP004A1
8.1120204076.20% utigBRC002 + 23.80% utigGCP004A1
8.3149991872.00% utigBRC010_018 + 28.00% utigGCP004A1
8.5446618259.20% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 40.80% utigBRC007_019
8.5446618240.80% utigBRC007_019 + 59.20% utigGCP002A1
8.7294016886.20% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 13.80% utigBRC013
8.7294016813.80% utigBRC013 + 86.20% utigGCP002A1
8.7512568853.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 46.20% utigGCP003A1
8.7512568853.80% utigGCP002A1 + 46.20% utigGCP003A1
8.7582739862.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 37.20% utigBRC010_018
8.7582739837.20% utigBRC010_018 + 62.80% utigGCP002A1
8.8489683281.80% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 18.20% utigLSC011A1
8.8489683281.80% utigGCP002A1 + 18.20% utigLSC011A1
8.9343688687.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 12.40% utigGLR003B1
8.9343688687.60% utigGCP002A1 + 12.40% utigGLR003B1
9.0051843184.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 15.40% GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
9.0051843115.40% GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b + 84.60% utigGCP002A1
9.0063294454.60% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b + 45.40% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
9.0063294454.60% BRC003_Dodecad_K12b + 45.40% utigGCP002A1
9.0924684387.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 12.40% utigGLR002A1
9.0924684387.60% utigGCP002A1 + 12.40% utigGLR002A1
9.2133662488.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 11.40% LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
9.2133662488.60% GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b + 11.40% utigLSC002_004
9.2133662411.40% LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b + 88.60% utigGCP002A1
9.2133662488.60% utigGCP002A1 + 11.40% utigLSC002_004





 
Thanks Jovialis for working on these and Salento for getting this started. Not close to any of these.


Distance to:PalermoTrapani_Combined
23.85763400utigBRC010_018
24.64844823utigBRC007_019
25.19361030utigBRC002
29.10075257utigGCP003A1
29.55992558utigLSC011A1
30.41273089utigGCP002A1
31.94630182utigBRC013
36.05251725utigBRC022
36.23945778utigLSC002_004
36.88101544utigBRC011
37.84487284utigBRC024
37.92600427utigGCP004A1
37.97656119utigGLR002A1
43.20054514utigGLR003B1
50.43090422utigBRC012
74.87399949utigLSC007A1
76.75266249utigLSC012A1

2nd Run of of results above with the 4 samples Salento provided in post #68.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_Combined
23.85763400utigBRC010_018
24.64844823utigBRC007_019
25.19361030utigBRC002
25.58405558BRC003_Dodecad_K12b
29.10075257utigGCP003A1
29.55992558utigLSC011A1
30.41273089utigGCP002A1
30.41273089GCP002A1_Dodecad_K12b
31.94630182utigBRC013
32.97007886GLR001A1_Dodecad_K12b
36.05251725utigBRC022
36.23945778utigLSC002_004
36.23945778LSC002_004_Dodecad_K12b
36.88101544utigBRC011
37.84487284utigBRC024
37.92600427utigGCP004A1
37.97656119utigGLR002A1
43.20054514utigGLR003B1
50.43090422utigBRC012
74.87399949utigLSC007A1
76.75266249utigLSC012A1

 
Last edited:
Thanks and You’re Welcome to Jovialis / Duarte / Palermo Trapani

:)
 
GedM…

Broion
- BRC003 # QZ8281511
Regina Margherita - GCP002 # YD3893795
Gattolino - GLR001 # UK7059539
La Sassa - LSC002_004 # TY3592047


Free one to one - Salento vs … :

Broion …
OvGVg4y.jpg


Gattolino …

eJuSEez.jpg


Regina Margherita …

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La Sassa …

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