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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal structural shifts after the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry

  1. #101
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    From Duarte's post.

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    Father_23andMe,7.92,0,0.69,0,36.48,28.19,0.26,0,6. 36,0,20.09,0
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    Mother_23andMe,5.03,0.21,1.33,0,37.33,29.53,0,0,5. 60,0,20.98,0
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    Uncle_FTDNA,3.90,0,1.62,0.10,35.16,31.01,0.03,0,4. 81,0,23.37,0
    Distance to: Uncle_FTDNA
    13.22406897 utigBRC002
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    73.38034205 utigLSC007A1
    74.89538170 utigLSC012A1

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Real Expert, there are 46 samples from Bronze Age Italy, including the mainland, Sicily and Sardinia. Of those 46 samples, 4 are blond or dark blonde and blue eyed and they're all from Sardinia. None from the mainland, and none from Sicily.

    That, to me, doesn't equal blonde hair and blue eyes were not uncommon in Italy during the Bronze Age.

    If you want to interpret it that way, that's your prerogative, although I think it gives the wrong impression.

    In the Iron Age, to complete the story, we have one blue eyed blonde.

    We have more blue eyed dark haired people. We still do. It's really a "not uncommon" phenotype in Italy. I can't put my hands on the paper right now, but a very large percentage of Italians, especially in the north, carry one blue eyed gene. Even the percentage of people with actual "light eyes" is significant.

    I took my time to carefully look at the very detailed and extended table from this current study. Actually, it was a Chal_Northern/Central Italian sample with blue eyes and brown hair who was predicted to be “very pale to intermediate“, and not a BA Sardinian. However, one medieval Sardinian sample had most likely red hair, brown eyes, a very "pale to intermediate complexion". Besides, there was also 1 Neo_ Sicilian sample with blond/dark blond hair. Anyway, what I find really surprising was the result of the Neolithic Jordanians/Levantines from Lazaridis paper. 2 of the 4 samples had blue eyes. One blue-eyed individual was predicted to be blond with "pale to intermediate" skin color while the other blue-eyed one had intermediate color and dark brown/black hair. The other 2 Neo Jordanians had dark brown hair, brown eyes, and intermediate skin color. So, none of the Neolithic Levantines/Jordanians scored “dark“ or “dark to black“ category which means that they were lighter than some BA Jordanians, but also lighter than some of the Neo/CA/BA Italians from this study, and even lighter than some of the Imperial Romans. By the way 1 of the 5 CA Armenians was blond with intermediate skin, and 2 of the 23 Neo Anatolians were blond/dark blond, one had blue the other brown eyes, both samples were intermediate in complexion. Another blue-eyed ANF was dark blond/brown-haired.


    Some CA Iran, BA Armenians, Anatolian farmers, Yamanya, CA Central Italians/Sicilians/Sardinians, Imperial Romans were in the “dark to black“ category. 2 of 28 Medieval/ Early modern Central Italian samples were in the Mixed Dark to Black/Intermediate category, etc.(2 Medieval/Early modern central Italians were redheads and very pale, and 1 redhaired was very pale to intermediate, 6 were blond/dark blond, with 1 of them who scored pale to intermediate, the rest were intermediate). 1 of 24 Late Antiquity Central Italians was predicted as "dark to black to pale" (strange) and 3 ones were in the "intermediate/dark to black" category. 3 of Late Antiquity samples were predicted red-haired/intermediate, and 1 blond and 6 dark blond, they were intermediate and 1 brunette scored "very pale" . Given the context, I came to the conclusion that the “dark to black“ prediction can‘t be taken literally. In terms of pairing, the blond-haired individuals no matter whether in Italy, Anatolia, Levant or Armenia basically had always blue eyes. Hence, it appears that blond hair comes typically with blue eyes.


  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I took my time to carefully look at the very detailed and extended table from this current study. Actually, it was a Chal_Northern/Central Italian sample with blue eyes and brown hair who was predicted to be “very pale to intermediate“, and not a BA Sardinian. However, one medieval Sardinian sample had most likely red hair, brown eyes, a very "pale to intermediate complexion". Besides, there was also 1 Neo_ Sicilian sample with blond/dark blond hair. Anyway, what I find really surprising was the result of the Neolithic Jordanians/Levantines from Lazaridis paper. 2 of the 4 samples had blue eyes. One blue-eyed individual was predicted to be blond with "pale to intermediate" skin color while the other blue-eyed one had intermediate color and dark brown/black hair. The other 2 Neo Jordanians had dark brown hair, brown eyes, and intermediate skin color. So, none of the Neolithic Levantines/Jordanians scored “dark“ or “dark to black“ category which means that they were lighter than some BA Jordanians, but also lighter than some of the Neo/CA/BA Italians from this study, and even lighter than some of the Imperial Romans. By the way 1 of the 5 CA Armenians was blond with intermediate skin, and 2 of the 23 Neo Anatolians were blond/dark blond, one had blue the other brown eyes, both samples were intermediate in complexion. Another blue-eyed ANF was dark blond/brown-haired.


    Some CA Iran, BA Armenians, Anatolian farmers, Yamanya, CA Central Italians/Sicilians/Sardinians, Imperial Romans were in the “dark to black“ category. 2 of 28 Medieval/ Early modern Central Italian samples were in the Mixed Dark to Black/Intermediate category, etc.(2 Medieval/Early modern central Italians were redheads and very pale, and 1 redhaired was very pale to intermediate, 6 were blond/dark blond, with 1 of them who scored pale to intermediate, the rest were intermediate). 1 of 24 Late Antiquity Central Italians was predicted as "dark to black to pale" (strange) and 3 ones were in the "intermediate/dark to black" category. 3 of Late Antiquity samples were predicted red-haired/intermediate, and 1 blond and 6 dark blond, they were intermediate and 1 brunette scored "very pale" . Given the context, I came to the conclusion that the “dark to black“ prediction can‘t be taken literally. In terms of pairing, the blond-haired individuals no matter whether in Italy, Anatolia, Levant or Armenia basically had always blue eyes. Hence, it appears that blond hair comes typically with blue eyes.

    Tell that to the Irish. :)


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tell that to the Irish. :)

    Would you mind elaborating a bit?

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    ^^Of course not.


    You can find the percentages for blue eyes by country at the link below. At 57% the Irish are far more blue eyed than the people of Germany and Belgium, as just one example.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...ed-people.html

    Yet, only 38% of the Irish have blonde hair.

    Percentage of blonde hair in Europe.jpg

    I'm sure you can see the disconnect. I think it's fair to say that the most common Irish phenotype is brown hair and blue eyes, and as someone who has spent the majority of my life around Irish people, I can say that quite often the hair is very dark brown.

    At the same time, they have the fairest skin in Europe, with most people of Irish descent never really tanning, just burning, while Northeast Europeans and Scandinavians do.

    Blue eyes were present in dark haired and relatively dark skinned WHG. Somewhere in far northeastern Europe the blonde hair gene seems to have arisen to a very high frequency. That's where there are the most people with blonde hair and blue eyes, but it needn't and often isn't the case in other parts of Europe.

    This isn't to say, of course, that the blondest countries don't usually have very high percentages of blue eyes, because they do, but those countries are precisely in the area where the people who possessed those alleles admixed, not necessarily because the two sets of alleles are linked genetically and pass as a unit, because it's clear they don't.

    Even very fair skin doesn't pass linked with light eyes and hair. I'm a perfect example. I have extremely dark hair and eyes and extremely fair skin; it's a combination more often seen in the British Isles, but, well, not always.

    I believe if you look back at the data for the first Bell Beakers who arrived in Britain, brown hair and brown eyes appear, and brown hair and blue eyes, with blonde hair and blue eyes being the least common. I also think it's interesting that the blonde hair/blue eye combination is more common in the area settled by the Danes and where the Anglo-Saxon ancestry is the most frequent, not in the rest of England. Indeed, the southwest and the border areas are darker altogether, which is why I always thought the people of Appalachia, where they settled, were noticeably different in ***mentation from the people in, say, New England, settled by people from eastern England.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Of course not.


    You can find the percentages for blue eyes by country at the link below. At 57% the Irish are far more blue eyed than the people of Germany and Belgium, as just one example.

    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...ed-people.html

    Yet, only 38% of the Irish have blonde hair.

    Percentage of blonde hair in Europe.jpg

    I'm sure you can see the disconnect. I think it's fair to say that the most common Irish phenotype is brown hair and blue eyes, and as someone who has spent the majority of my life around Irish people, I can say that quite often the hair is very dark brown.

    At the same time, they have the fairest skin in Europe, with most people of Irish descent never really tanning, just burning, while Northeast Europeans and Scandinavians do.

    Blue eyes were present in dark haired and relatively dark skinned WHG. Somewhere in far northeastern Europe the blonde hair gene seems to have arisen to a very high frequency. That's where there are the most people with blonde hair and blue eyes, but it needn't and often isn't the case in other parts of Europe.

    This isn't to say, of course, that the blondest countries don't usually have very high percentages of blue eyes, because they do, but those countries are precisely in the area where the people who possessed those alleles admixed, not necessarily because the two sets of alleles are linked genetically and pass as a unit, because it's clear they don't.

    Even very fair skin doesn't pass linked with light eyes and hair. I'm a perfect example. I have extremely dark hair and eyes and extremely fair skin; it's a combination more often seen in the British Isles, but, well, not always.

    I believe if you look back at the data for the first Bell Beakers who arrived in Britain, brown hair and brown eyes appear, and brown hair and blue eyes, with blonde hair and blue eyes being the least common. I also think it's interesting that the blonde hair/blue eye combination is more common in the area settled by the Danes and where the Anglo-Saxon ancestry is the most frequent, not in the rest of England. Indeed, the southwest and the border areas are darker altogether, which is why I always thought the people of Appalachia, where they settled, were noticeably different in ***mentation from the people in, say, New England, settled by people from eastern England.

    Thanks for your explaining. To me, it was intriguing that all the blonds from the several studies from all across Italy, Anatolia, Armenia, the Levant had all blue eyes (aside from 1 Anatolian outlier). So, these results give you the impression that blond hair goes typically together with blue eyes. In Germany, for instance, naturally blond folks rarely have brown eyes, and if they‘re do, they usually have one parent with dark hair and eyes. Plus, I recall reading statics that suggested that 65% of Germans have blue/grey eyes, which means the frequency of blue/grey is a bit higher among Germans than among Irish people. Anyway, during my several visits to Italy I saw people with ocean blue eyes and nearly black hair. Looks great. Hence, I'm aware of the fact that blue eyes don‘t come with blond hair only. Brown eyes among Redheads, for example, isn't uncommon. Oh, by the way, I calculated that around 32% of Medieval/Early Modern Central Italians and 41% of the Antiquity samples from Central Italy had light coloured hair (red+blond/dark blond). Pretty much significant I would say. The Northern African admixed Etruscan female from the Roman study was intermediate while the sample 850, Latin “outlier“, was in the "dark" category. And the few Imperial samples that were predicted to be intermediate with blond/red hair and blue eyes had all an Eastern Mediterranean profile. Overall, my personal impression is that the phenotype prediction (at least in some cases and in terms of skin color) is shacky and must be taken with a grain of salt.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Thanks for your explaining. To me, it was intriguing that all the blonds from the several studies from all across Italy, Anatolia, Armenia, the Levant had all blue eyes (aside from 1 Anatolian outlier). So, these results give you the impression that blond hair goes typically together with blue eyes. In Germany, for instance, naturally blond folks rarely have brown eyes, and if they‘re do, they usually have one parent with dark hair and eyes. Plus, I recall reading statics that suggested that 65% of Germans have blue/grey eyes, which means the frequency of blue/grey is a bit higher among Germans than among Irish people. Anyway, during my several visits to Italy I saw people with ocean blue eyes and nearly black hair. Looks great. Hence, I'm aware of the fact that blue eyes don‘t come with blond hair only. Brown eyes among Redheads, for example, isn't uncommon. Oh, by the way, I calculated that around 32% of Medieval/Early Modern Central Italians and 41% of the Antiquity samples from Central Italy had light coloured hair (red+blond/dark blond). Pretty much significant I would say. The Northern African admixed Etruscan female from the Roman study was intermediate while the sample 850, Latin “outlier“, was in the "dark" category. And the few Imperial samples that were predicted to be intermediate with blond/red hair and blue eyes had all an Eastern Mediterranean profile. Overall, my personal impression is that the phenotype prediction (at least in some cases and in terms of skin color) is shacky and must be taken with a grain of salt.
    Rome was a center for traders and visitors from all parts of Europe and the Near East not only during the Imperium but in Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages as well. It's a big mistake to assume the samples are all locals.

    It was, after all, the major pilgrimage site in Europe. Delegations to the Pope were also extremely numerous. As I've mentioned before, in 990 A.D. Sigeric, the Archbishop of Canterbury, passed right in front of the house where I was born on his way to see the Pope in order to be consecrated and then returned the same way, using the famous Via Francigena or "French Road".

    Indeed, when the Roman samples from those periods were analyzed autosomally it was clear that some of the samples from Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages were northerners visiting the city.

    As Geary did with the Langobard cemeteries, the samples should have been analyzed with isotopes, which would have made their status clear to everyone and not something we had to figure out for ourselves.

    Italians have not changed since the early Middle Ages, especially in Rome and the more northern areas, and those percentages are too high.

    That said, blue eyed people do exist, and in quite high percentages in some parts of the country. In the Veneto, for example, more than 40% of the people have light eyes. In my father's area in the northern Apennines, in some villages, including his, everyone is light eyed. (Of course in the mountains drift plays a big role.) In the more northern parts of Liguria the same is true, almost always paired with dark hair, but not always.

    Miss Liguria:


    Indeed, I recall a study from years ago that a very large percentage of Italians are heterogeneous for light eyes. Of course, that doesn't "show".

    This is, I think, the combination to which you referred, and that is quite common in Ireland and Scotland.



    Percentage of light eyed people in Italy:


    Percentage of blonde haired people in Italy:


    This is the best map ever made since it is based on a study done at the end of the 19th century before the vast migration from south to north, and they used tens of thousands of army conscripts.

    Aosta and Trentino (Bolzano on the map) have many non-Italians so the data from those two areas is of limited usefulness.

    Anyway, again, you can see the disconnect in percentages between light eyes and light hair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Rome was a center for traders and visitors from all parts of Europe and the Near East not only during the Imperium but in Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages as well. It's a big mistake to assume they're all locals.

    Indeed, when the samples were analyzed autosomally it was clear that some of the samples from Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages were northerners visiting the city.

    As Geary did with the Langobard cemeteries, the samples should have been analyzed with isotopes, which would have made their status clear to everyone and not something we have to figure out for ourselves.

    Italians have not changed since the early Middle Ages, especially in Rome and the more northern areas, and those percentages are too high.

    That said, blue eyed people do exist, and in quite high percentages in some parts of the country. In the Veneto, for example, more than 40% of the people have light eyes. In my father's area in the northern Apennines, in some villages, including his, everyone is light eyed. (Of course in the mountains drift plays a big role.) In the more northern parts of Liguria the same is true, almost always paired with dark hair, but not always.

    Miss Liguria:


    Indeed, I recall a study from years ago that a very large percentage of Italians are heterogeneous for light eyes. Of course, that doesn't "show".

    This is, I think, the combination to which you referred, and that is quite common in Ireland and Scotland.



    Percentage of light eyed people in Italy:


    Percentage of blonde haired people in Italy:


    This is the best map ever made since it is based on a study done at the end of the 19th century before the vast migration from south to north, and they used tens of thousands of army conscripts.

    Aosta and Trentino have many non-Italians so the data from those two areas is of limited usefulness.

    Anyway, again, you can see the disconnect in percentages between light eyes and light hair.

    Thanks again for the info.

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    @Angela,

    I read in an article, that the Mishnaic era Jews were described as being boxwood in complexion by the Rabbis of that time.


    Would you call this skin color olive,intermediate or dark?



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    at first sight it's a piece of wood; for colour, I would not say it's "olive" or "dark"; as an average I would say a light white "skin" with strong vascularisation! Your question is a bit funny: some joke on the cost of someone? Surely I missed something.

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    This map of light eyes in Europe is very very optimist concerning "light" eyes (for me, middle and dark green are not light, only intermediary, but here, even by taking these hues for light, the map is wrong all the way; too high %'s). M.O.

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    I add they putin the same category very regions with very different %'s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    at first sight it's a piece of wood; for colour, I would not say it's "olive" or "dark"; as an average I would say a light white "skin" with strong vascularisation! Your question is a bit funny: some joke on the cost of someone? Surely I missed something.



    I actually wasn‘t joking, since the posted photo of this "piece of wood" is boxwood. Here is the quote I was referring to: It's from a Mishnic Rabbi, R. Ishmael, who said “The sons of Israel are like boxwood, neither black nor white but between the two”. This Rabbi took Germanic people as the example for whiteness/white skin, and Ethiopians as an example for blackness/black skin. I was told that "dark" in the eyes of a Northern European isn't necessarily dark for someone from Southern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I actually wasn‘t joking, since the posted photo of this "piece of wood" is boxwood. Here is the quote I was referring to: It's from a Mishnic Rabbi, R. Ishmael, who said “The sons of Israel are like boxwood, neither black nor white but between the two”. This Rabbi took Germanic people as the example for whiteness/white skin, and Ethiopians as an example for blackness/black skin. I was told that "dark" in the eyes of a Northern European isn't necessarily dark for someone from Southern Europe.
    OK. boxwood ("buis" for us) seems to me a bit yellowisher than the colour I saw on your picture. Maybe it match for white "dark" skin (without sun tanning, so on protected parts of body), spite not so olivelike at the detail level.
    It's true that Europeans are focused on whitish skins and split hairs when speaking about this matter.
    Concerning Ethiopians, the most of them have brown skins (middle for me) what is not true dark skins.
    I think the most of Near-Eastern people in ancient times had olive white skins, what is not amazing; only someones lighter or darker. The more brownish white skins or true brown skins came later I think from southerners with very often a drop of SSA "blood" (genes in fact).
    A very interesting test would be to compare the skin of Arabic lands Jews to their Muslim brothers. We know their auDNA shows very less SSA input. All this for people interested in the matter, of course (for the fun, it's true I heard a new version of "Snow White" could be made with a metisse character Rachel Zegler, just for the buzz (?); in fact she seems light enough for skin and is not a true 'metisse', rather a 1/4-3/4 crossing or something like that! ATW, nobody ever wrote Snow White was a pure 'europoid', obly she was lily white skinned!?!)

  15. #115
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,944

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia

    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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