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Thread: Sons of Noah dispersal an allegory for non-steppe related CHG-pulse in the EBA?

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    Sons of Noah dispersal an allegory for non-steppe related CHG-pulse in the EBA?

    NOTE: I have changed the topic of this thread, which evolved out of the discussion of the original:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Just a thought, could the story of Shem, Japheth, and Ham, somewhat be an allegory connected to the spread of non-steppe related CHG-like ancestry in the EBA? Of course, I am not suggesting that it is directly associated, to one man; Noah and his three sons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat (Urartu), from which his descendants dispersed. We also now know of a pulse of CHG that spread in a star-formation in the EBA.


    Below is the original content:


    Urartu: The Forgotten Kingdom (Documentary)



    I found this documentary on Amazon Prime. I'm about half-way through it, because I haven't had a chance to finish it. However, it was very fascinating, I recommend you see it.


    I personally like the way the documentary was done. It reminds me of an old-school one, with higher-quality film.

    Last edited by Jovialis; 13-05-21 at 15:36.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Just a thought, could the story of Shem, Japheth, and Ham, somewhat be an allegory connected to the spread of non-steppe related CHG-like ancestry in the EBA? Of course, I am not suggesting that it is directly associated, to one man; Noah and his three sons.

    Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat (Urartu), from which his descendants dispersed. We also now know of a pulse of CHG that spread in a star-formation in the EBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Just a thought, could the story of Shem, Japheth, and Ham, somewhat be an allegory connected to the spread of non-steppe related CHG-like ancestry in the EBA? Of course, I am not suggesting that it is directly associated, to one man; Noah and his three sons.

    Noah's Ark landed on Mount Ararat (Urartu), from which his descendants dispersed. We also now know of a pulse of CHG that spread in a star-formation in the EBA.
    Did the original story specify Mount Ararat, or is this a consensus amongst later 'researchers'?

    I think the EBA dispersion of CHG and hap J was from Kura-Araxes area after the collapse of the Uruk expansion.
    And yes, probaly it is also the origin of Semites.

    The Urartu kingdom came later, MBA or LBA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Did the original story specify Mount Ararat, or is this a consensus amongst later 'researchers'?

    I think the EBA dispersion of CHG and hap J was from Kura-Araxes area after the collapse of the Uruk expansion.
    And yes, probaly it is also the origin of Semites.

    The Urartu kingdom came later, MBA or LBA?
    Here is what I found:

    Since the Middle Ages the "mountains of Ararat" began to be identified with a mountain in present Turkey (historical Armenia) known as Masis or Ağrı Dağı; the mountain became known as Mount Ararat.[2][3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_of_Ararat
    However, I think perhaps the allegory speaks broadly of these population movements since prehistoric times. idk


    Maybe it even includes the CHG found in steppe? This is all speculation to me.

    Nevertheless, it probably ramped up in the EBA/MBA, as demonstrated by the detection of the CHG pulse in that time.

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    I guess the 8,5 ka gradient is about the Tepecik-Ciftlik obsidian trade.
    The Semitic expansion is probably associated with bronze.
    I see EBA Cycladic is dated 5,2 ka. Could Minoans have spoken a Semitic language?
    5,2 ka seems to old for a bronze expansion from Kura-Araxes, I'd rather suspect southern Caucasus then (Leyla-Tepe - Maykop).
    The story was told just 3000 years ago, it seems to me that they would remember little from the bronze expansion.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I guess the 8,5 ka gradient is about the Tepecik-Ciftlik obsidian trade.
    The Semitic expansion is probably associated with bronze.
    I see EBA Cycladic is dated 5,2 ka. Could Minoans have spoken a Semitic language?
    5,2 ka seems to old for a bronze expansion from Kura-Araxes, I'd rather suspect southern Caucasus then (Leyla-Tepe - Maykop).
    The story was told just 3000 years ago, it seems to me that they would remember little from the bronze expansion.
    I am confident that Semites have nothing to do with Minoans, based on their autosomal DNA. They were mostly Anatolian_N, with a small but significant amount of non-steppe related CHG/Iran_N:



    Semites are the branch of non-steppe related CHG that went south and mixed with Levant_N populations.




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    neolithic greece is all anatolian neolithic

    the Cycladic is shifted toward CHG
    my interpretation is an arrival of CHG males who take local wives when arriving in the Aegean or maybe already earlier on in western Anatolia



    of course it is possible that Minoan is the maternal language instead of paternal

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    I'm not convinced by the video you post on semitic.
    Their proto-semitic is projected on the fact that first semitic writing was attested in northern Levant
    But proto-semitic could as well have originated in an area where there was no writing.
    Consequent to the westbound bronze migration I suspect proto-semitic closer to the Caucasus



    earliest attested semitic is akkadian, ca 4,6 ka

    akkadians and amorites were herders
    Ebla was a city

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    I'm not convinced by the video you post on semitic.
    Their proto-semitic is projected on the fact that first semitic writing was attested in northern Levant
    But proto-semitic could as well have originated in an area where there was no writing.
    Consequent to the westbound bronze migration I suspect proto-semitic closer to the Caucasus



    earliest attested semitic is akkadian, ca 4,6 ka

    akkadians and amorites were herders
    Ebla was a city
    Nevertheless, I think we agree there was definitely a non-steppe related CHG contribution from the Caucasus into the levant, which brought on the ethnogenisis of the Semitic speakers.

    I am not sure, but I believe the prevailing view is that proto-Semitic began in the levant, others hypothesis is began in North Africa. If so, I believe it suggests the incoming CHG groups adopted the language of the locals.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-...guage#Urheimat


    I argue that the difference is that there was not a Natufian element that was brought with them westward. In fact, I think it is rather fascinating, that even after thousands of years of being neighbors, the Levantine contribution to southwest Anatolia was only 5% by as late as the Bronze Age.

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    Iran Neolithic and CHG modeled in figure 6.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full
    Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry

    H. event.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Iran Neolithic and CHG modeled in figure 6.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full
    Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry
    The modeling is very broad, because it uses mbuti as a place holder for very deep ancestry. I would go by the abstract to decipher their composition:

    We document major population turnover in the Near East after the time of Dzudzuana, showing that the highly differentiated Holocene populations of the region6 were formed by ‘Ancient North Eurasian’3,9,10 admixture into the Caucasus and Iran and North African11,12 admixture into the Natufians of the Levant.

    ANE + Dzudzuana (Anatolian_N-like) = CHG/Iran_N

    North African +
    Dzudzuana (Anatolian_N-like) = Natufian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Iran Neolithic and CHG modeled in figure 6.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full
    Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry
    indeed, it has been told before : Dzudzuana = pré-WHG (Villabruna) + Basal Eurasian
    and CHG = Dzudzuana + ANE, while EHG is on a cline between CHG and ANE



    also note that pré-Dzudzuana spread to the Levant and Anatolia
    in the Levant = pré-Dzudzuana + ancestral north african

    but I think we are getting a bit off topic here?

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    ^^I can change the topic, as this is more interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I can change the topic, as this is more interesting.
    I think the origin of Semitic is interesting as well.

    It is an Afroasiatic language, which associated with Natufian Levant in origin,
    but semitic itself is associated with CHG/Iran Neo and haplo J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I can change the topic, as this is more interesting.
    I don't want to derail the thread. Just trying to understand the Natufian and Dzudzuana basal Eurasian component, why they have no admixture(compared to 45000 year old UstIshim) from Neanderthal or Denisovan if indeed the diagram below is correct. Wouldn't the older basal Eurasian carried by Homo sapien Neanderthal and Homo sapien Denisovan, predate the Natufian and Dzudzuana basal Eurasain by hundreds of thousands of years?

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    Wouldnt they be in the Haplogoup G?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Wouldn't the older basal Eurasian carried by Homo sapien Neanderthal and Homo sapien Denisovan, predate the Natufian and Dzudzuana basal Eurasain by hundreds of thousands of years?
    I haven't seen any evidence that either Neanderthals or Denisovans carried any Basal Eurasion. Surely Basal Eurasian was originally "pure" Homo Sapiens Sapiens, without admixture. It seems more likely that the Basal Eurasian population only emerged from either North Africa or Arabia less than 45 kya, after the admixture between modern humans, Neanderthals and Denisovans.

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