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Thread: Current J2b2-L283 Evidence + A speculative Theory

  1. #26
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    I've only done 23andme and it assigned me J-Z631. I agree with your suggestions of Roman/Balkan legionnaires or people migrating via the Danube from the Balkans.

    However, I have another question. I've been reading through many threads, and I've seen many arguments regarding whether this was Illyrians or some other tribe. Isn't the term Illyrian just a vague definition for the collection of differing Western Balkan tribes of the era? There is also no country within that has dominant J-L283, even the Albanians, who currently appear to have the largest number of J-L283, still have E and I2 haplogroups being more predominate. Shouldn't efforts be focused on specific samples within the Albania area to see which towns have the highest proportion of J-L283. I also haven't seen the suggestion that the "Illyrians" may have absorbed a J-L283 group.
    In regards to doing deeper testing some of the tests are quite expensive. Big-Y on FTDNA is $499, but it sometimes goes on sale during holidays for as little as $250-300. However since I know some of the admins for L283 I have asked them what would be the cheapest way to determine your terminal SNP, since I know you can test for specific SNPs quite cheaply, and since you know that you would fall somewhere downstream of Z631, maybe there is a way to determine your terminal SNP for less than $100. I will let you know once I get a response.

    Regarding the Illyrian question. Yes, the Greeks referred to the barbarians in the North-West as Illyrians, as such it was an umbrella term for people that were related (as tribes, culturally and maybe genetically), but might not have been the same people, similar to how they refered to people in the North East as Thracians, for whom it might have been a similar case.

    Right now I am positive L283 was indeed an Illyrian Haplogroup. We find it 4k ypb in Maros, and 3.7k ybp in Dalmatia. And a paper is coming out soon with a Bronze age L283 in North Albania. These dates predate the term Illyrian by maybe more than 1k years. However, given what we know about Illyrians, where they were located, their movement North to South during the period they were identified by the Greeks etc, in my mind there is no doubt given our current evidence that L283 was indeed an Illyrian paternal line during this period.

    Regarding Albania, I would say L283 is indeed a dominant line. As in R1B z2103(not I2, think you made a mistake), E-V13, and L283 all make up between 20-30% of Albanian male lines. As such depending on the region any of the clades can be dominant. Meaning there is no meaningful difference in the %tages. There is no point using modern frequencies to determine anything however, ancient samples in the case of L283 are the strongest proof, since modern frequencies can be due to founder effects and bottlenecks.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  2. #27
    Junior Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/Z631
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Roman mediated spread of L283 to Germany makes the most sense for most German L283s. I can’t speak for all the different branches of L283, but in the case of my branch (PH1602), the majority of samples are German (FTDNA). PH1602 is easy to spot because it almost always has DYS456 = 12. Most all of these kits are Germans. Along with CTS6190, it is the only other branch with no samples found amongst Albanians. So I’m under the impression it was born in NW Balkans, but has some ties with northern Italy thereafter. Because the Etruscan from Rome was CTS6190, which is a parallel branch to PH1602, I sometimes wonder if PH1602 is somehow connected to Etruscans or these Rhaetian people in northern Italy. Rhaetians were highly regarded as legionaries by the Romans. So this could be one possible avenue for L283’s spread of younger branches from south to north within Europe (most of these L283 branches were 2900 years old or younger). Of course Z631 would also be one of these branches, too. Many German L283s belong to Z631.
    I agree with the German Roman mediated spread, but what do you guys think about the Czech Republic hot spot that existed far from the Roman border?

    Also, I think your Rhaetion theory is interesting, however there doesn't appear to be many samples from the Alps outside of Switzerland. And Switzerland's close proximity and connection to the Roman Rhine frontier could provide an easy explanation, similar to the German mediated spread. Furthermore, I don't think there are any samples with the last 3 surviving Rhaeto-Romance languages being designated from the paternal line.

  3. #28
    Junior Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/Z631
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    In regards to doing deeper testing some of the tests are quite expensive. Big-Y on FTDNA is $499, but it sometimes goes on sale during holidays for as little as $250-300. However since I know some of the admins for L283 I have asked them what would be the cheapest way to determine your terminal SNP, since I know you can test for specific SNPs quite cheaply, and since you know that you would fall somewhere downstream of Z631, maybe there is a way to determine your terminal SNP for less than $100. I will let you know once I get a response.

    Regarding the Illyrian question. Yes, the Greeks referred to the barbarians in the North-West as Illyrians, as such it was an umbrella term for people that were related (as tribes, culturally and maybe genetically), but might not have been the same people, similar to how they refered to people in the North East as Thracians, for whom it might have been a similar case.

    Right now I am positive L283 was indeed an Illyrian Haplogroup. We find it 4k ypb in Maros, and 3.7k ybp in Dalmatia. And a paper is coming out soon with a Bronze age L283 in North Albania. These dates predate the term Illyrian by maybe more than 1k years. However, given what we know about Illyrians, where they were located, their movement North to South during the period they were identified by the Greeks etc, in my mind there is no doubt given our current evidence that L283 was indeed an Illyrian paternal line during this period.

    Regarding Albania, I would say L283 is indeed a dominant line. As in R1B z2103(not I2, think you made a mistake), E-V13, and L283 all make up between 20-30% of Albanian male lines. As such depending on the region any of the clades can be dominant. Meaning there is no meaningful difference in the %tages. There is no point using modern frequencies to determine anything however, ancient samples in the case of L283 are the strongest proof, since modern frequencies can be due to founder effects and bottlenecks.
    Thank you for the response. I was considering getting on the Y full tree, but I am a college student living with parents during Covid, so I don't have that kind of money. I suppose I did make an error with the I2 being mixed up with R1B z2103, I just thought I saw some stats somewhere that demonstrated overall the 2 haplogroups had higher numbers when considering the nation as a whole, but I may be mistaken.

    I agree with you that J-L283 came from the Illyrians, but based on the differing Y DNA of Croatia, Bosnia, and Albania, who all encompassed Illyria, it leads me to believe that the Illyrians were likely divided into smaller genetic Y DNA cluster groups, which were possibly further divided by language. Is there any maps of Albania specifically to see hot spots, because a lot of the samples demonstrated on phylogeographer only geolocated Albania and not specific towns. England, Sardinia, and the Rhine have similar geolocation of unspecific locations, making it difficult for me to correlate Roman forts and borders with samples.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Thank you for the response. I was considering getting on the Y full tree, but I am a college student living with parents during Covid, so I don't have that kind of money. I suppose I did make an error with the I2 being mixed up with R1B z2103, I just thought I saw some stats somewhere that demonstrated overall the 2 haplogroups had higher numbers when considering the nation as a whole, but I may be mistaken.

    I agree with you that J-L283 came from the Illyrians, but based on the differing Y DNA of Croatia, Bosnia, and Albania, who all encompassed Illyria, it leads me to believe that the Illyrians were likely divided into smaller genetic Y DNA cluster groups, which were possibly further divided by language. Is there any maps of Albania specifically to see hot spots, because a lot of the samples demonstrated on phylogeographer only geolocated Albania and not specific towns. England, Sardinia, and the Rhine have similar geolocation of unspecific locations, making it difficult for me to correlate Roman forts and borders with samples.
    This one might be a bit of an older graphic, I think from 2018-19, but should be to some degree accurate.




    As for the testing, yes I understand, was a student once myself, know the struggle.
    The admin got back to me, and maybe this advice can help you in the future I will send you the info through PM.





  5. #30
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b L283 PH1602

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    Thank you for the response. I was considering getting on the Y full tree, but I am a college student living with parents during Covid, so I don't have that kind of money. I suppose I did make an error with the I2 being mixed up with R1B z2103, I just thought I saw some stats somewhere that demonstrated overall the 2 haplogroups had higher numbers when considering the nation as a whole, but I may be mistaken.
    I agree with you that J-L283 came from the Illyrians, but based on the differing Y DNA of Croatia, Bosnia, and Albania, who all encompassed Illyria, it leads me to believe that the Illyrians were likely divided into smaller genetic Y DNA cluster groups, which were possibly further divided by language. Is there any maps of Albania specifically to see hot spots, because a lot of the samples demonstrated on phylogeographer only geolocated Albania and not specific towns. England, Sardinia, and the Rhine have similar geolocation of unspecific locations, making it difficult for me to correlate Roman forts and borders with samples.
    Check out Aspurg’s posts here as well as Anthrogenica (if you haven’t already). He has some interesting theories tying specific Illyrian tribes to specific lineages within L283. I’m not sure if there is a way to search for his posts, but they’re interesting to me. I don’t know much about the Illyrians except that any discussion centered around their ethnogenesis can be extremely informative about the Balkans, but can also go off the rails in a nanosecond as well. I’ve learned a great deal over the years from Aspurg’s and Trojet’s posts, among others, here at Eupedia.

    I’m assuming you’re on the L283 Facebook page?

  6. #31
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b L283 PH1602

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    In regards to doing deeper testing some of the tests are quite expensive. Big-Y on FTDNA is $499, but it sometimes goes on sale during holidays for as little as $250-300. However since I know some of the admins for L283 I have asked them what would be the cheapest way to determine your terminal SNP, since I know you can test for specific SNPs quite cheaply, and since you know that you would fall somewhere downstream of Z631, maybe there is a way to determine your terminal SNP for less than $100. I will let you know once I get a response.

    Regarding the Illyrian question. Yes, the Greeks referred to the barbarians in the North-West as Illyrians, as such it was an umbrella term for people that were related (as tribes, culturally and maybe genetically), but might not have been the same people, similar to how they refered to people in the North East as Thracians, for whom it might have been a similar case.

    Right now I am positive L283 was indeed an Illyrian Haplogroup. We find it 4k ypb in Maros, and 3.7k ybp in Dalmatia. And a paper is coming out soon with a Bronze age L283 in North Albania. These dates predate the term Illyrian by maybe more than 1k years. However, given what we know about Illyrians, where they were located, their movement North to South during the period they were identified by the Greeks etc, in my mind there is no doubt given our current evidence that L283 was indeed an Illyrian paternal line during this period.

    Regarding Albania, I would say L283 is indeed a dominant line. As in R1B z2103(not I2, think you made a mistake), E-V13, and L283 all make up between 20-30% of Albanian male lines. As such depending on the region any of the clades can be dominant. Meaning there is no meaningful difference in the %tages. There is no point using modern frequencies to determine anything however, ancient samples in the case of L283 are the strongest proof, since modern frequencies can be due to founder effects and bottlenecks.
    Agree with all of this. Do you have any idea about the age of this new Bronze Age sample from northern Albania? You may have mentioned it earlier and I didn’t catch it.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Agree with all of this. Do you have any idea about the age of this new Bronze Age sample from northern Albania? You may have mentioned it earlier and I didn’t catch it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gjergj View Post
    The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far :) and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
    It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
    Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
    There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.
    From some other post I think someone mentioned MBA/LBA/Iron age so not sure.


    Found it it was King John from a closed thread I cant quote:

    "i am going to tell something
    this is a leak .....
    r1b was found in early bronze age north albania
    i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
    2 samples from bronze age north albania :
    early bronze age r1b
    middle bronze age j2b











    I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.




    Some of the results




    Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563




    Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241
    "

  8. #33
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    That’s good information! Much appreciated. Lots of ancient DNA in the pipeline, hopefully it’s one of many.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    That’s good information! Much appreciated. Lots of ancient DNA in the pipeline, hopefully it’s one of many.
    It seems very hard for me to find out what early/mid/late bronze age means in this context online. Since various regions have different systems. But I am guessing 4kbp to 2kbp? Not sure if you know more on this. Cause if its close to 4kbp then it would be similar to Maros and Dalmatia.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    It seems very hard for me to find out what early/mid/late bronze age means in this context online. Since various regions have different systems. But I am guessing 4kbp to 2kbp? Not sure if you know more on this. Cause if its close to 4kbp then it would be similar to Maros and Dalmatia.
    You’re right about how date ranges vary by locale. Here’s a culture associated with MBA in the Balkans that is dated 1200BC to 1600BC.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture

    L283 Croatian from Veliki Vanik was right on the edge of EBA/MBA. Mokrin falls towards middle of EBA (2300-1700BC).

  11. #36
    Junior Member Galaxy Overlord's Avatar
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    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Check out Aspurg’s posts here as well as Anthrogenica (if you haven’t already). He has some interesting theories tying specific Illyrian tribes to specific lineages within L283. I’m not sure if there is a way to search for his posts, but they’re interesting to me. I don’t know much about the Illyrians except that any discussion centered around their ethnogenesis can be extremely informative about the Balkans, but can also go off the rails in a nanosecond as well. I’ve learned a great deal over the years from Aspurg’s and Trojet’s posts, among others, here at Eupedia.
    I’m assuming you’re on the L283 Facebook page?
    Yes, I think I've seen some of Trojet's posts, but I don't recall any specifics regarding tribes. I'll check search Eupedia J-L283 and look out for Aspurg and Trojet's posts. And I too have also noticed that most of the Illyrain discussions on genetic forums end up in strange arguments. Is J-L283 one of the most contested Y haplogroups or something?
    Yes, I'm in the J-L283 Facebook group, I've been in it for about a month or 2.

    And archetypeone I tried responding to your PM but I'm not sure how to know if it went through.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    From some other post I think someone mentioned MBA/LBA/Iron age so not sure.


    Found it it was King John from a closed thread I cant quote:

    "i am going to tell something
    this is a leak .....
    r1b was found in early bronze age north albania
    i don't know the details when i will know more i will post it ...
    2 samples from bronze age north albania :
    early bronze age r1b
    middle bronze age j2b











    I received preliminary results from an old DNA study in Albania. I do not have more detailed information (laboratory, date of publication of the study, etc.). It is only known that the first tour is from the north of Albania, while the second will be from the south.




    Some of the results




    Northern Albania, Early Bronze Age: R1b-PF7563




    Northern Albania, Middle Bronze Age / Late Bronze Age: J2b2-M241
    "
    Do you have an estimated year for that j2b2 because the bronze age is a long period. Would help determine if its related to illyrian period or before them

    Also i had a look at the heat map for r1b z2103 and some nations who have early clades and i still believe it came through anatolia sometime in bronze age into balkans. Modern west asian regions still carry z2103 today at varying percentages near 5-10% so its a lot more common than j2b l283 but often at a similar level with v13

  13. #38
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Do you have an estimated year for that j2b2 because the bronze age is a long period. Would help determine if its related to illyrian period or before them

    Also i had a look at the heat map for r1b z2103 and some nations who have early clades and i still believe it came through anatolia sometime in bronze age into balkans. Modern west asian regions still carry z2103 today at varying percentages near 5-10% so its a lot more common than j2b l283 but often at a similar level with v13
    L283 ancient sample in this case would have to fall between about 1700 BC and 1400 BC. Similar age as the Dalmatian/Croatian L283 (1600 BC).

  14. #39
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/25/e2100901118

    I'm currently reading this study about early domesticated goats from the Zagros Mountains in Iran. Interestingly enough, the dates jive with the approximate formation date of L283 in an area where L283 could have originated. This makes me wonder if there were pastoralists who could have moved from NW Iran into the Caucasus and then on to the PCP. Can goats from these areas be traced back to the Zagros area?

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