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Thread: Current J2b2-L283 Evidence + A speculative Theory

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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Current J2b2-L283 Evidence + A speculative Theory

    (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/)









    https://indo-european.eu/2020/02/visualizing-phylogenetic-trees-of-ancient-dna-in-a-map/


    *Potential new samples I drew on top of the source.
    Mokrin sample is official (https://www.researchgate.net/publica...orthern_Serbia)


    *missing Mokrin AFAIK


    Now potential context.


    J2b-M102 Project 2009 map (Roman Sychev) with added main SNPs


    YHRD J2b-M241 map, even without good geographical coverage the map gives some insight

    Images and quotations taken from: (https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/)









    *from wikipedia on Proto Indo Europeans article.
    Keep in mind Afasinevo are supposedly linked to Tocharian based on material evidence linking them to Yamnaya - from Wikipedia article



    *from reddit.


    (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_318751121)



    Figure 25

    MLE tree with bootstrap scores (NJ start tree)
    Citation: Indo-European Linguistics 8, 1 (2020) ; 10.1163/22125892-20201000
    *There are 25 figures in total, in some of them the tree may look different. Follow the link to check the paper.




    An interesting unproven, speculative theory, yet given future samples it is a testable/falsifiable hypothesis.
    (https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-a...nt-in-yamnaya/)


    "The purpose of this article is to make a case for investigating ties between J-L283 and the Caucasus Hunter Gatherer autosomal genetic component in Yamnaya samples. There is neither hard evidence nor strong circumstantial evidence that J-L283 was present in Yamnaya. However I believe it remains a plausible explanation given the available data, and one worthy of investigating further because of the abundance of recent scholarship and public interest into the origins and supposed migrations of Proto-Indo-European peoples."

    ---

    ""We do not know exactly where or when the CHG element that was a robust part of Yamnaya ancestry entered the steppes - an important question."
    <six pages behind a paywall I cannot read>
    "..it was definitely before 4500 BC. Hunter-gatherer populations of the CHG type probably migrated northward into the steppes from the southern end of the Caspian Sea, perhaps during the early Holocene, and were integrated into EGH mating networks that extended down the Volga from the forest zone, producing a hybrid steppe population that was fairly homogenous genetically from the middle Volga to the North Caucasus steppes by 4500-4300 BC."
    "But at 4500 BC they had not yet married into the emerging cattle-keepers whose biggest cemeteries were on the Dnieper Rapids, far to the west, as we will see below."
    According to the YFull estimates, J-L283 split into a possible Caucasus remnant and European migrant lineage J-Z622 3700 BC.
    Three hundred years later, there were seven separate lineages descending from J-Z622 and all tracing descent to Europe."

    ---


    "
    In the meantime I've found a complete and recent paper by David Anthony pertinent to our investigation, "Archaeology, Genetics, and Language in the Steppes: A Comment on Bomhard".
    He writes that it seems more likely that the CHG component that entered the Yamnaya gene pool did so via Hunter Fisher groups of the South Caspian CHG network migrating up the west coast of the Caspian rather than from the Maikop culture, which itself looks to have been founded by the first migrants who introduced farming north of the Caucasus, having skirted around the western end of the Caucasus Mountains along the Black Sea coast.
    A central point of his reasoning is that the ratio of Anatolian Farmer to CHG genetic components in Maikop individuals was too high to account for the CHG acquired by the Yamnaya, whose only 10-18% of Anatolian Farmer is believed to have been acquired further west:
    But if Wang et al. 2018 are correct, if the Anatolian Farmer element in Yamnaya came from mating between steppe people and late Tripol’ye or Globular Amphorae farmers, then the CHG genetic element in Yamnaya, more than half of Yamnaya ancestry, could not have been heavily admixed with additional Anatolian Farmer ancestry.
    Yamnaya had a minor component of Anatolian Farmer ancestry, 10-18%. If most of it came from Europe then the CHG that was so prominent in Yamnaya ancestry must have been a relatively un-admixed variety of CHG, with a low percentage of Anatolian Farmer ancestry.
    This un-admixed kind of CHG disappeared after about 5000 BC in the Caucasus and northwestern Iran, according to Wang et al. (2018) combined with Lazaridis et al. (2016) and the forthcoming Naramsimhan et al. (2018 posted on bioarxiv). After about 5000 BC Anatolian Farmer ancestry spread east through eastern Anatolia and Transcaucasia (Areni-1, Armenia) into Iran (Seh Gabi) while CHG ancestry spread westward into Anatolia and the Levant. All tested individuals dated after 5000 BC in the Caucasus and western Iran showed CHG & Anatolian Farmer admixture on a cline across Iran with greater Anatolian Farmer ancestry in western Iran and the Caucasus and less to none in eastern Iran (Narasimhan et al. 2018). After this mixing of populations happened, the un-admixed type of early CHG ancestry probably survived only in small isolated populations...
    CHG in the steppes 6000-4000 BC
    The variety of CHG that constituted more than half of Yamnaya ancestry could have been the Mesolithic/Early Neolithic variety, like Hotu Cave or Kotias Cave, not yet admixed with Anatolian Farmer ancestry. If the CHG element in Yamnaya came from a non-admixed CHG population of this kind, they could have walked into the steppes from northwestern Iran/Azerbaijan at any time before about 5000 BC—before admixture with Anatolian Farmers began. The easiest path into the steppes from the Caucasus skirts the eastern end of the North Caucasus ridge, where there is a level plain between the mountains and the Caspian Sea. No such plain exists at the western end of the mountain range, where mountains plunge into the Black Sea. - David W. Anthony, The Journal of Indo-European Studies, "Archaeology, Genetics, and Language in the Steppes: A Comment on Bomhard" (2019)"



    Now compare and cross reference the data.
    Expansion of L283 from a bottlenecked almost invisible line 5.5k ya to bronze age explosion,
    the ancient samples and their location,
    the modern day distribution of basal clades and L283 distribution(% wise)/dispersion(geographically).

    Once the Moldovan sample along with the Albanian sample come out things will be much clearer. If the rumors I have heard about the age of the Moldovan sample are correct, and we get autosomal data, this theory can be tested/falsified.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 16-05-21 at 10:26.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Greetings Polska.

    Recently found a paper(?) on Polygeographer: https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-a...nt-in-yamnaya/

    If the rumors of the Eneolithic Moldova L283 are confirmed, doesn't this pretty much offer the best evidence so far of how L283 got to Europe?

    L283 being CHG -(contributes to Yamnaya CHG component)-> IE moves through the Danube to North Balkans / Central Europe --> Pushes into South Balkans.

    Would explain Estonian Samples, Polish Samples, Italian/Nurgaic Samples, Balkan Samples, and some sort of IE connection. Would be good to know what sort of grave sites the recent leaked L283 from Albania were found from, if they were in Kurgans it would further strengthen this theory. Also autosomal analysis of the sample and chronographic analysis of the relation of the Albanian sample to other Balkan samples could further add circumstantial evidence.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture

    The timing of ancient DNA seems plausible. The timing of the culture seems plausible. If this very old Moldovan sample is analyzed and it turns out Yamnaya like the I think we have a smoking gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Nice post. Yes, Hunter’s article in Phylogeographer re: a possible connection between CHG in Yamnaya and L283 is excellent. He has also updated the article as more information and theories about CHG have arisen over the last year. I could be wrong, but doesn’t David Anthony still think that this CHG component came from Iran before the Caucasus? If his theory proves to be true, then I would think L283 would have to be a potential candidate, maybe even front runner, provided L283 originates in NW Iran near the Caucasus. They’re also saying that this CHG component left NW Iran and ventured north along the west coast of the Caspian to the north of the Caucasus around 5000 BC or earlier, so maybe that’s why it’s so difficult to locate any L283 south of the Caucasus or in Iran today. At 5000 BC, L283 was still a fairly young branch, about 2500 years old at that point according to YFull https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/. This old CHG would not have been admixed with ANF, so ultimately they may need to find a very old L283 north of the Caucasus with no ANF ancestry to test this hypothesis. David Anthony recently mentioned an area near the estuary of the Volga as being rich in CHG ancestry, possibly even the source according to Nick Patterson. https://youtu.be/-MOrEA84qvo. Anthony also mentions 6200 BC as the earliest this L283 appeared around the lower Volga after leaving the Caucasus. This also fits with the age estimate of L283, appearing around 7700 BC. We’ll have to wait for more ancient samples from that area to learn more, assuming they can even find viable samples. Like you, I’m interested in this rumored L283 Ukrainian/Moldovan sample, too. At the very least, assuming it’s a good sample, it should provide some more clues about where we ultimately come from and how we made it to Europe. I would think that we’ll need even older samples to answer the CHG question because I’m assuming the L283 Moldovan would show some ANF admixture based on its age and location. I don’t know much about these admixture tools these guys/gals are employing, so there’s a lot of ignorance on my end, but a lot of potential to learn, too. So, I could be way off with some of my comments here.
    There are a couple interesting things about L283 that still stand out to me as it relates to this Yamnaya discussion:

    1. We don’t see any old L283 out in Central Asia or further east. Lots of R1b Z2103 (sometimes mentioned alongside L283 in the context of the Balkans) found in Central Asia and even out in China. There are no Asian L283s.

    2. No ancient or living “old” branches of L283 found (yet) in western Anatolia that could be tied to some sort of expansion of early PIE peoples. R1b Z2103 is much more frequent there (Anatolia), L283 is basically non existent, except for some younger branches that originated in Europe.

    So, I think if there was a partial co-migration between L283 and Z2103, this L283 would have already been positioned to the west of Z2103, which originated on the steppe and was moving west. This might partially explain why L283 isn’t found further east. It was already more western than Z2103. So I am very interested in these ancient cultures found along the north coast of the Black Sea, especially around Crimea, as a possible source of L283 and a possible interaction sphere that saw some sort of partial fusion of L283 and Z2103, among others, during the Yamnaya’s westward progression. I’m trying to learn more about this Kemi Oba Culture and related cultures in the region. There are so many of them, it’s almost mind boggling. Maybe some L283 guys who were loaded with CHG were picked up in what is today southern Ukraine by Z2103 during its westward push into the Balkans. This still makes me wonder why Z2103 is so much more frequent in the Levant and Anatolia, while L283 is missing (excepting younger downstream branches with European origins). The recent paper on L283 and other rare haps in NE Europe estimates that L283 was in Central Europe, possibly as far north as Poland, as early as 4000BC. Their calculations could be way off, but let’s assume they’re fairly accurate. So assuming a migration across PCS from area near NW Caucasus/Black Sea, these few L283s were more focused on migrating up the Danube and into Pannonia and Central Europe. Baden Culture? Cernavoda seems like a possibility too, but I’ve read that Cernavoda also has ties to the Anatolian Language Complex and I’m not seeing any ties between L283 and this language complex at this time. Below is a link to this Kemi Oba culture. I can’t find much information about them beyond the Wikipedia link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Oba_culture


    Some other wild possibilities: Maybe L283 has a much older presence in Europe than we realize, connected with Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers in Central Europe or the Balkans? I don’t believe this to be the case, but I’m trying to keep an open mind when it comes to possible explanations as to its origins. L283 is a very European haplogroup, meaning it is almost exclusively connected to Europe and Europeans and no one else. This is why I wonder if it could have a very old presence in Europe. Counterpoints here would be the very old J2b (non L283) found in NW Iran and maybe estimated expansion dates for early L283 not fitting with MHG timeline.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Take a look at this : https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ulative-Theory






    So technically, the L283 could have been a singular branch of the CHG component, that differentiated from M102, joined the westward Yamnaya expansion no?

    If you want I can quote these last 2-3 messages and we can move this discussion to the thread I made about L283, feels this one is another discussion (Proto-Illyrians) in the title.

    If the Modlovan sample is anywhere close to 6ky old, then it would explain Estonian/Polish basals, living basals branches downstream in France, Germany etc. And also Danube, Hungarian living basal, Italian living basal, as well as the Nurgaics. Not to mention this peculiar L283 or upstream in Iran.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Taking some graphics from the other thread.




    As you can see the Yamnaya had many expansions in waves, in different time periods, so did the Proto Indo Europeans.
    I suspect the first expansions into Anatolia and Afasinevo L283 was not part of, the second expansion into the Balkans it was, through the danube from where it spread North (Poland, Estonia etc), South into Balkans, and into Central Europe all the way to the low countries in small numbers, as well as turning into North Italy, Lombardy Tuscany and Sardinia.




    Would appreciate if we brought this discussion to the other thread, since this has nothing to do with Illyrians for a few thousand more years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Absolutely, feel free to move over to the aforementioned L283 thread. Probably a good idea. I don’t want to bog this L283 Proto Illyrian thread down with wild speculation about L283s possible connection with CHG component in Yamnaya/western Yamnaya people.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    From user “Genos Historia” over at Eurogenes, fwiw:


    "Mokrin Serbia EBA is mix between Western Yamnaya and Tollense Valley-related pops.


    @0.013
    Croat BA: 41%
    Vucedol: 16%
    Welzin_BA: 43%

    Gets fit down to 0.004 with ancient pops included. Hungary EF, Yamnaya, Hungary BA/Welzin.

    Y DNA I2a came from "Tollense Valley-related"
    Y DNA R1b Z2103, J2b2a came from Western Yamnaya.

    Not saying J2b2a is of Steppe origin. But it did exist in Bronze age descendants of Western Yamnaya."

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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    From user “Genos Historia” over at Eurogenes, fwiw:


    "Mokrin Serbia EBA is mix between Western Yamnaya and Tollense Valley-related pops.


    @0.013
    Croat BA: 41%
    Vucedol: 16%
    Welzin_BA: 43%

    Gets fit down to 0.004 with ancient pops included. Hungary EF, Yamnaya, Hungary BA/Welzin.

    Y DNA I2a came from "Tollense Valley-related"
    Y DNA R1b Z2103, J2b2a came from Western Yamnaya.

    Not saying J2b2a is of Steppe origin. But it did exist in Bronze age descendants of Western Yamnaya."


    Quite some circumstantial evidence so far backs this hypothesis. If someone has a better hypothesis given the current evidence I am all ears, or sees any flaws I am all ears.

    Now if the Moldova sample comes out Yamnaya, and more R1b related to Indo Europeans are sampled for the same paper then I do not know. The shoe would fit the foot too well.

    PS: From what I have read on the Nebra Sky Disk, during the time period there was trade connections between Austria (Where some of the ore was mined for the disk, and Saxony where the disk was found). Given Danube brings you straight from Mokrin to Austria, and also the Rheine river brings you into mainland Germany there was possible trade routes.

    According to an initial analysis of trace elements by x-ray fluorescence by E. Pernicka, then at the University of Freiberg, the copper originated at Bischofshofen in Austria, while the gold was thought to be from the Carpathian Mountains.[6]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_(Unstrut)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk

    I am not saying this was the route they took. I am just saying these regions were well connected, as we can see from artifacts and autosomal genetics.

    PS: It would be cool to have all the autosomal data from these ancient samples in a graphic. Not sure how to go about finding them.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 17-05-21 at 05:33.

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    The complex causeway construction that was likely used and maintained for centuries suggests a significance of the crossing beyond just local. In this context, finds from the valley relating to Bronze Age metal crafts are of interest: along with the scrap metal hoard mentioned above found in the immediate area of the crossing, attention is drawn to a hoard from Golchen comprising an unusual accumulation of tools, as well as to two tin rings found in the same archaeological layer as the Bronze Age skeletal remains. These finds could indicate that metal crafts were of particular significance in the Tollense Valley and its surrounding areas. The middle section of the Tollense Valley that is the focus of attention here could have derived special significance from its role as a crossroads.

    The region around the famous barrow of Seddin in Brandenburg is a further example for the significance of river systems for regional power and the exchange of goods. Similarly, the River Tollense could have played a role in the flow of commodities; the causeway at the Kessin 12 site offers a possible connection of the south-north water transportation route via the Tollense River to the Baltic Sea with an east-west land route linking the River Oder estuary region and the Mecklenburg Lake District.
    The Lake District was of great importance from the Early Bronze Age; here independent bronze production was established early on. Diversity analyses indicate a shift of regions of innovation during the transition from the 3rd to the 2nd millennium BCE, as the southern Baltic Sea region and the region east of the river Oder clearly also became more important. Early Bronze Age imports from south-east Europe highlight the significance of the region west of the Oder estuary. The Tollense Valley likely played a role in connecting these areas.

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/02/the...-east-germany/
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 17-05-21 at 05:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    From user “Genos Historia” over at Eurogenes, fwiw:


    "Mokrin Serbia EBA is mix between Western Yamnaya and Tollense Valley-related pops.


    @0.013
    Croat BA: 41%
    Vucedol: 16%
    Welzin_BA: 43%

    Gets fit down to 0.004 with ancient pops included. Hungary EF, Yamnaya, Hungary BA/Welzin.

    Y DNA I2a came from "Tollense Valley-related"
    Y DNA R1b Z2103, J2b2a came from Western Yamnaya.

    Not saying J2b2a is of Steppe origin. But it did exist in Bronze age descendants of Western Yamnaya."
    I have many questions but also regarding z2103

    First of all, why is the spread of z2103 different to j2b l283 if they moved together? J2b is not uncommon in italy yet z2103 is rare, whereas z2103 is not uncommon in south balkans and towards middle east yet j2b l283 is rare.

    Secondly, the i2a you are referring to is surely not the ancestor of i2a-din right?

    And if r1b z2103 and j2b l283 moved from yanmaya into central europe and west balkans how is it that these, moreso z2103, are nonexistant in western europe when they were in direct contact with what became western europeans for thousands of years.

    In my opinion something doesnt add up or there was a huge timeline gap for the western european movement and these z2103 and j2b indo europeans. They surely did not travel with other yanmaya ancestors that became western europe, in my opinion r1b z2103 moved south before other r1b groups moved out of the steppe, not central europe. And then moved into balkans thousands of years later. This explains lack of genetic exchange with z2103 and western r1b

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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I have many questions but also regarding z2103

    First of all, why is the spread of z2103 different to j2b l283 if they moved together? J2b is not uncommon in italy yet z2103 is rare, whereas z2103 is not uncommon in south balkans and towards middle east yet j2b l283 is rare.

    Secondly, the i2a you are referring to is surely not the ancestor of i2a-din right?

    And if r1b z2103 and j2b l283 moved from yanmaya into central europe and west balkans how is it that these, moreso z2103, are nonexistant in western europe when they were in direct contact with what became western europeans for thousands of years.

    In my opinion something doesnt add up or there was a huge timeline gap for the western european movement and these z2103 and j2b indo europeans. They surely did not travel with other yanmaya ancestors that became western europe, in my opinion r1b z2103 moved south before other r1b groups moved out of the steppe, not central europe. And then moved into balkans thousands of years later. This explains lack of genetic exchange with z2103 and western r1b
    Good point Taktikat.

    I wouldn't look to much at modern frequencies. But alas I feel there is possible explanations. L283 itself is not high frequency in West Europe, or anywhere outside Albania for that matter. What I find more revealing is the branching and dispersion of parallel subbranches(age, parallel line flags, TMRCA).

    It seems these ones look quite Indo-European given the flags, and TMRCA.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y18959/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14420/

    Now. Take a look at this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
    And keep an eye out for Sweeden, Czech Republic, and British Isles. Look who they form parallel lines with 2k+ TMRCA with.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8421/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8424/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS11760/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y27522/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37121/

    Actually there is so many instances, as long as you know what to look for you will see it.

    Is this any proof? No. But couldn't help but to marvel at the coincidences.

    Does this change much? No. Pannonia/Central-West Balkans is still the stepping stone, its just that from there, they disperse in a circular wave into the Southern Balkans, Baltics, Nordics, Central Europe, British Isles, and West Europe as lines. Given the TMRCA I find it hard to explain, albeit it is possible (highly unlikely) Roman dispersion doesn't seem like the universal answer as far as L283 is concerned (apart from some later TMRCA Albanian/Italian lines).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Good point Taktikat.

    I wouldn't look to much at modern frequencies. But alas I feel there is possible explanations. L283 itself is not high frequency in West Europe, or anywhere outside Albania for that matter. What I find more revealing is the branching and dispersion of parallel subbranches(age, parallel line flags, TMRCA).

    It seems these ones look quite Indo-European given the flags, and TMRCA.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y18959/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y14420/

    Now. Take a look at this: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
    And keep an eye out for Sweeden, Czech Republic, and British Isles. Look who they form parallel lines with 2k+ TMRCA with.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8421/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8424/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS11760/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y27522/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y37121/

    Actually there is so many instances, as long as you know what to look for you will see it.

    Is this any proof? No. But couldn't help but to marvel at the coincidences.

    Does this change much? No. Pannonia/Central-West Balkans is still the stepping stone, its just that from there, they disperse in a circular wave into the Southern Balkans, Baltics, Nordics, Central Europe, British Isles, and West Europe as lines. Given the TMRCA I find it hard to explain, albeit it is possible (highly unlikely) Roman dispersion doesn't seem like the universal answer as far as L283 is concerned (apart from some later TMRCA Albanian/Italian lines).
    Yes this is interesting, most of these tmrcas arent too far off the roman conquests but yes some may predate it. We should remember that in the roman empire boys were allowed to marry at age 14 and girls at age 12 so tmrcas will never be completely accurate. If z2103 and l283 came out of yanmaya together and setup base in central europe - why would l283 be successful in reaching western europeans but not z2103? And an opposite case when you go south - lack of l283 in south balkans and towards middle east where z2103 is more common.

    As for albania today, could be as simple as l283 getting lucky in north albania and expanding whilst other groups died/diminished however I think there has to be more to it. I prefer to deal with facts instead of leave things to chance and luck

  10. #10
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Yes this is interesting, most of these tmrcas arent too far off the roman conquests but yes some may predate it. We should remember that in the roman empire boys were allowed to marry at age 14 and girls at age 12 so tmrcas will never be completely accurate. If z2103 and l283 came out of yanmaya together and setup base in central europe - why would l283 be successful in reaching western europeans but not z2103? And an opposite case when you go south - lack of l283 in south balkans and towards middle east where z2103 is more common.
    As for albania today, could be as simple as l283 getting lucky in north albania and expanding whilst other groups died/diminished however I think there has to be more to it. I prefer to deal with facts instead of leave things to chance and luck
    Well. Looking at modern frequencies is kind of looking at chance/luck.
    Given that z2103 is majority in Afasinevo, it is hard to deny they were part of the Yamnaya.

    Meanwhile
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

    That is as Indo-European as it gets, and Albanians who have high z2103 also seem to be in a clade with a 4kya Polish Sample of R-M2103/R-L52. R-L51, ancestor of R-L52 parallels R-M269.

    Meanwhile




    Early Indo-Iranian formed mainly by R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93, Corded Ware out of Late PIE-speaking migrations

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/ear...ng-migrations/


    • A sample from Hajji Firuz in Iran ca. 5650 BC, of subclade R1b-Z2103, may confirm Mesolithic R1b-M269 lineages from the Caucasus as the source of CHG ancestry to Khvalynsk/Yamna, and be thus the reason why Reich wrote about a potential PIE homeland south of the Caucasus . (EDIT 11 APR 2018) The sample shows steppe ancestry, therefore the date is most likely incorrect, and a new radiocarbon dating is due. It is still interesting – depending on the precise subclade – for its potential relationship with IE migrations into the area.


    Maros shows Yamnaya-derived East BBC ancestry and local admixture

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/mar...cal-admixture/


    The emergence of even more R1b-Z2103 lineages among East Bell Beaker-derived groups from the Middle to Upper Danube (among samples within a cluster described as ‘northern’ and ‘upper’ in the PCA) should come as no surprise by now, given the already available early East Bell Beakers from Poland and Hungary (one of them, Sfu3, packing the highest Yamnaya ancestry among Bell Beakers), and especially in this highly conservative cultural region around the Danube – with their strong attachment to tradition also visible in the strict patrilineal family ties through their prevailing Yamnaya lineages.


    "Its direct cultural connection to the conservative Danubian Early Bronze Age and the presence of other South-East European lineages in this necropolis (such as I2 and the already published G2a-Z6484 in Mathieson 2015*), as well as the evidence of R1b-Z2103 and archaic R1b-L51 lineages among Italic peoples (and probably also among Palaeo-Balkan-speaking peoples) confirms that the tens of thousands of late Yamnaya / Proto-East Bell Beakers from the Hungarian Plains were both a sink of West Yamnaya R1b-L23 (R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51) lineages, but also – after centuries of local admixture – a source of the different East BBC bottlenecks, such as those under R1b-L151 visible among Bell Beaker and derived groups of Western and Northern Europe."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Well. Looking at modern frequencies is kind of looking at chance/luck.
    Given that z2103 is majority in Afasinevo, it is hard to deny they were part of the Yamnaya.

    Meanwhile
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

    That is as Indo-European as it gets, and Albanians who have high z2103 also seem to be in a clade with a 4kya Polish Sample of R-M2103/R-L52. R-L51, ancestor of R-L52 parallels R-M269.

    Meanwhile




    Early Indo-Iranian formed mainly by R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93, Corded Ware out of Late PIE-speaking migrations

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/04/ear...ng-migrations/


    • A sample from Hajji Firuz in Iran ca. 5650 BC, of subclade R1b-Z2103, may confirm Mesolithic R1b-M269 lineages from the Caucasus as the source of CHG ancestry to Khvalynsk/Yamna, and be thus the reason why Reich wrote about a potential PIE homeland south of the Caucasus . (EDIT 11 APR 2018) The sample shows steppe ancestry, therefore the date is most likely incorrect, and a new radiocarbon dating is due. It is still interesting – depending on the precise subclade – for its potential relationship with IE migrations into the area.


    Maros shows Yamnaya-derived East BBC ancestry and local admixture

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/mar...cal-admixture/


    The emergence of even more R1b-Z2103 lineages among East Bell Beaker-derived groups from the Middle to Upper Danube (among samples within a cluster described as ‘northern’ and ‘upper’ in the PCA) should come as no surprise by now, given the already available early East Bell Beakers from Poland and Hungary (one of them, Sfu3, packing the highest Yamnaya ancestry among Bell Beakers), and especially in this highly conservative cultural region around the Danube – with their strong attachment to tradition also visible in the strict patrilineal family ties through their prevailing Yamnaya lineages.


    "Its direct cultural connection to the conservative Danubian Early Bronze Age and the presence of other South-East European lineages in this necropolis (such as I2 and the already published G2a-Z6484 in Mathieson 2015*), as well as the evidence of R1b-Z2103 and archaic R1b-L51 lineages among Italic peoples (and probably also among Palaeo-Balkan-speaking peoples) confirms that the tens of thousands of late Yamnaya / Proto-East Bell Beakers from the Hungarian Plains were both a sink of West Yamnaya R1b-L23 (R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51) lineages, but also – after centuries of local admixture – a source of the different East BBC bottlenecks, such as those under R1b-L151 visible among Bell Beaker and derived groups of Western and Northern Europe."
    I understand that r1b z2103 came from yanmaya but i suggested it went directly south. R-L51 is almost non existant in balkans and west asia and z2103 is non existant in western europe. It clearly split from other yanmaya groups thousands and thousands of years ago and has had very little contact with what became western r1b. This is why i say z2103 came back up into balkans through anatolia

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I understand that r1b z2103 came from yanmaya but i suggested it went directly south. R-L51 is almost non existant in balkans and west asia and z2103 is non existant in western europe. It clearly split from other yanmaya groups thousands and thousands of years ago and has had very little contact with what became western r1b. This is why i say z2103 came back up into balkans through anatolia
    Well TMRCA of L51 is 5700, Z2103 is 5300. Both found in Indo - European Yamnaya as far as I am aware. So not sure if you mean they could not be both Indo European? or something else. Both found in todays Albanians. And ancient Poland samples. I am not saying it was a single movement of Indo Europeans, since we know that the Indo Europeans spread in waves.

    But I am curious why do you think it was easier for z2103 to get to the Balkans from the Levant, when the Yamnaya Moldova is much closer and accessible? I will tell you the truth I never really studied z2103 until I started reading about Yamnaya. The TMRCAs fit with Indo Europeans and Yamnaya. We have autosomal evidence pointing that the ones 4k ya in Maros had high Yamnaya autosomal composition, etc. What gives you the feeling its not possible?

    "Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103, the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region."

    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...J2_Y-DNA.shtml From Maciamo.

    "The Yamna DNA samples recovered from elite Kurgan graves in southern Russia belonged overwhelmingly to haplogroup R1b-Z2103, the essentially eastern branch of Indo-European R1b. The absence of other main R1b subclades is probably due to the dominance of a single royal or aristocratic lineage among the Yamnayan elite buried in Kurgans. Other R1b subclades did show up in Germany (DF27, U152) and Ireland (L21) when Steppe-derived people reached those regions between 2500 and 2000 BCE. The only non-R1b sample found in Yamna was an I2a2a-L699, a lineage descended from WHG tribes that migrated to Eastern Europe, but came back with the Indo-European migrations and is now found especially in Central and Western Europe."

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/yamna_culture.shtml



    *Notice L23 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/



    *Notice L51, and M209. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

    Keep in mind I am not talking about Levant at the moment, rather Yamnaya Z2103.

    And as Polska shared the analysis from some blog member, both Z2103 and L283 in Maros had substantial Yamnaya. The maros sample was ~4k yo IIRC.


    Edit: I mean some hard mental gymanstics would be needed to explain the 3.9 k yo TMRCA between these branches high up the z2103 tree.




    Doesn't look Levantine at all. If the flags on YFULL are giving you the idea that this z2103 branch has Levantine origin, keep in mind that currently on YFull L283* has an Armenian. A simple genesis around the Caucasus could explain both how they got into Yamnaya and the Levant, such as the basal z2103 in Iraq, and the 4k yo z2103 in Easter Yamnaya. As the Indo European article I shared earlier, the writer hypothesised that this branch too could be the CHG heavy people that contributed CHG to the Yamnaya taking the route Anthony proposes of Eastern Caucasus, along the caspian.



    Not a disclaimer, I am not saying l283 and these z2103 branches traveled together. All I know is that the circumstantial evidence doesn't falsify it as of now. And in Maros 4kya there were found with a similar autosomal composition.

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    Do you not think it is possible that z2103 moved down through georgia/anatolia and then thousands years later moved up into balkans? Like i said z2103 does exist in those regions even today whereas l51 does not (except for a few recent inputs)
    Surely the complete lack of z2103 in western europe is a sign that z2103 moved in a completely different direction - to me it is possible there was a war/disagreement between z2103 and l51 in yamnaya/russia which caused a division. If not a disagreement then maybe more something along the lines of "you guys go this way and we'll go that way" and the rest is history
    I doubt j2b has anything to do with ancient greeks though it maybe played a part later on as modern greece has ~ 5% j2b - best place to look for the spread of j2b culture is ancient italy if not balkans

    EDIT -

    Maybe most j2b among greeks isnt the "european" variant - according to this study greek cypriots have 0.6% m241 and a whopping 5.9% m205. Can someone explain this and what are the exact figures for mainland greece to compare? As far as I'm aware m205 is more common amongst some middle eastern groups such as iranians, could this be achaemenidian input?

    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 17-05-21 at 19:31.

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    A lot of ancient italian history is tied with balkan and greek history - so without more ancient dna it is not yet possible to make concrete claims about which lines belonged to what cultures -

    "Cortona (Etr. Curtun-), 30 km. (18 mi.) south-east of *Arretium, was an important *Etruscan stronghold with a commanding view of the Val di Chiana. The archaeological evidence indicates that its ‘*Pelasgian’ walls are no earlier than the 5th cent. BCE; they are still largely extant, as are two earlier tumuli (meloni) and a Hellenistic mausoleum (the ‘Tanella di Pitagora’). After the defeat of the Etruscans in 311 BCE by Q. *Fabius Maximus Rullianus, Cortona and the two other leading cities of the interior, *Pisae (mod. Pisa) and *Arretium, made treaties with Rome. The decontextualized tabula Cortonensis, written c.200 BCE and the third longest extant Etruscan text (see ETRUSCAN LANGUAGE), came to light in 1992; it has been subjected to a variety of interpretations since the appearance of its editio princeps in 2000."

    I find it strange that we have more neolithic and early bronze age adna instead of important dates like iron age and early middle age

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    Please mods delete this as have moved up to post #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    A lot of ancient italian history is tied with balkan and greek history - so without more ancient dna it is not yet possible to make concrete claims about which lines belonged to what cultures -
    "Cortona (Etr. Curtun-), 30 km. (18 mi.) south-east of *Arretium, was an important *Etruscan stronghold with a commanding view of the Val di Chiana. The archaeological evidence indicates that its ‘*Pelasgian’ walls are no earlier than the 5th cent. BCE; they are still largely extant, as are two earlier tumuli (meloni) and a Hellenistic mausoleum (the ‘Tanella di Pitagora’). After the defeat of the Etruscans in 311 BCE by Q. *Fabius Maximus Rullianus, Cortona and the two other leading cities of the interior, *Pisae (mod. Pisa) and *Arretium, made treaties with Rome. The decontextualized tabula Cortonensis, written c.200 BCE and the third longest extant Etruscan text (see ETRUSCAN LANGUAGE), came to light in 1992; it has been subjected to a variety of interpretations since the appearance of its editio princeps in 2000."
    I find it strange that we have more neolithic and early bronze age adna instead of important dates like iron age and early middle age
    I am not bringing Greeks into this discussion. The quote you got stuck at is from Maciamo and is referring to z2103 and Myceneans, not Greeks in the modern sense. Alas the whole thread is not even about that topic but rather J2B2 and possible connection to CHG and Yamnaya expansions. No need to first jump into the z2103 then jump to Greeks. Defeats the purpose on arguing the main thesis here.

    Ps: Since you brought up Etruscans:

    Notice both autosomal make up, and only Y found in this study.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Do you not think it is possible that z2103 moved down through georgia/anatolia and then thousands years later moved up into balkans? Like i said z2103 does exist in those regions even today whereas l51 does not (except for a few recent inputs)
    Surely the complete lack of z2103 in western europe is a sign that z2103 moved in a completely different direction - to me it is possible there was a war/disagreement between z2103 and l51 in yamnaya/russia which caused a division. If not a disagreement then maybe more something along the lines of "you guys go this way and we'll go that way" and the rest is history
    I doubt j2b has anything to do with ancient greeks though it maybe played a part later on as modern greece has ~ 5% j2b - best place to look for the spread of j2b culture is ancient italy if not balkans

    EDIT -

    Maybe most j2b among greeks isnt the "european" variant - according to this study greek cypriots have 0.6% m241 and a whopping 5.9% m205. Can someone explain this and what are the exact figures for mainland greece to compare? As far as I'm aware m205 is more common amongst some middle eastern groups such as iranians, could this be achaemenidian input?

    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
    Almost all European J2B2 as far as I know is L283. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.




    PS: Did you say J2b/2 in Greece isnt European then take as an example Cyprus? You realize Cryprus is closer to Asia Minor and Levant, and not geographically in Europe. Also Greek islander genetics is a whole other story when it comes to genetic movements in history. Anyways we are way off topic.

    About z2103, I don't think it came through Anatolia. However you tell me looking at this frequency maps.




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    While not relevant to the discussion re: CHG component, this Budjak Culture from Ukraine/Moldova area is interesting in the context of how/why L283 may have travelled NW as part of a Balkan/Carpathian variant of the Yamnaya expansion. This might be part of the reason why L283 fits so well as “western Yamnaya” and why it’s found to the north, but not the south of that latitude. I can’t find much info on this Budjak Culture beyond a few mentions on line. It’s dated to 3600 BC, which is basically on the cusp of middle to late eneolithic period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak


    “The Budjak culture of the North-West Black Sea region is considered to be important in the context of the Pit-Grave or Yamnaya culture of the Pontic steppe, dating to 3,600–2,300 BC. In particular, Budjak may have given rise to the Balkan-Carpathian variant of Yamnaya culture.”

    This Budjak Culture is not too far away from (just west) this Kemi Oba Culture on the Crimean Peninsula that I’m wondering might be the source of L283. The Kemi Oba Culture appears to be contemporaneous with the Budjak Culture, maybe 100-200 years older.

    I have also read that there may have been population movements from Kemi Oba to the NW Caucasus. This makes me wonder if the L283 from Karbino Balkaria and other L283s in that vicinity may be the result of some sort of back migration from the Crimean Peninsula.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    While not relevant to the discussion re: CHG component, this Budjak Culture from Ukraine/Moldova area is interesting in the context of how/why L283 may have travelled NW as part of a Balkan/Carpathian variant of the Yamnaya expansion. This might be part of the reason why L283 fits so well as “western Yamnaya” and why it’s found to the north, but not the south of that latitude. I can’t find much info on this Budjak Culture beyond a few mentions on line. It’s dated to 3600 BC, which is basically on the cusp of middle to late eneolithic period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak


    “The Budjak culture of the North-West Black Sea region is considered to be important in the context of the Pit-Grave or Yamnaya culture of the Pontic steppe, dating to 3,600–2,300 BC. In particular, Budjak may have given rise to the Balkan-Carpathian variant of Yamnaya culture.”

    This Budjak Culture is not too far away from (just west) this Kemi Oba Culture on the Crimean Peninsula that I’m wondering might be the source of L283. The Kemi Oba Culture appears to be contemporaneous with the Budjak Culture, maybe 100-200 years older.

    I have also read that there may have been population movements from Kemi Oba to the NW Caucasus. This makes me wonder if the L283 from Karbino Balkaria and other L283s in that vicinity may be the result of some sort of back migration from the Crimean Peninsula.


    In case you haven't yet Polska, take a look:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d=1#post624570

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    In case you haven't yet Polska, take a look:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...d=1#post624570
    Good discussion. Thanks for sharing. The J discovered in Khvalynsk was J1. There was recently a post from “Davidski” over at his Eurogenes blog indicating Khvalynsk was out of the running for possible PIE homeland. This homeland would now be shifted further west. That post has now been taken down. Very curious about why he would delete the post.

    Anyhow, I think they’re sitting on some interesting samples to the west of a Khvalynsk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Good discussion. Thanks for sharing. The J discovered in Khvalynsk was J1. There was recently a post from “Davidski” over at his Eurogenes blog indicating Khvalynsk was out of the running for possible PIE homeland. This homeland would now be shifted further west. That post has now been taken down. Very curious about why he would delete the post.

    Anyhow, I think they’re sitting on some interesting samples to the west of a Khvalynsk.
    That would be quite remarkable, being able to have more Y Samples of proto Indo-Europeans and being able to analyze their autosomal makeup.

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    What is the general consensus for the high rate of J-L283 in Wurttemberg Germany displayed on the phylogeographer heat map? Is it all just assumed to be Roman derived via settlements or forts, or a founder effect like in Russia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    What is the general consensus for the high rate of J-L283 in Wurttemberg Germany displayed on the phylogeographer heat map? Is it all just assumed to be Roman derived via settlements or forts, or a founder effect like in Russia?
    I am not qualified to answer the question. From what I have seen for most L283 in Europe so far the Roman expansion theory is dominant. However, I personally think some of it, the ones that can not be back traced as a subranch of older branches in the Balkans and Italy could have spread earlier and/or independently. There is a few such downstream L283 basal clades, in places like Germany, France etc...

    I think Trojet is the best person to ask about any specific clade, as the answer varies on a case to case basis. I will send him a PM to join this thread and hopefully provide an answer to your question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    What is the general consensus for the high rate of J-L283 in Wurttemberg Germany displayed on the phylogeographer heat map? Is it all just assumed to be Roman derived via settlements or forts, or a founder effect like in Russia?
    What test did you do? Maybe finding your terminal SNP can help answer that question for you individually.

    Since z631 seems Roman in nature, given


    *Cant help but notice the smooth green colored line on the image, from Souther Balkans across the danube to Central Europe.

    As you will be able to see here a lot of branch diversity in Albanians, with a TMRCAs > 2k ybp, so it is possible it was some Balkan legionaries.

    Nonetheless, seeing Czech and Pole L283 sharing 2k+ tmrcas with Albanians in more than one branch, I do not know how to explain that with Roman expansion. Maybe these people just moved different direction after getting to the Balkans through the Danube basin into Central Europe?

    This one for example looks like the German variant of L283





    However as you can see there is only 2 samples...

    So yeah its either Roman / Balkan Legionaries.
    Or these people >2k ybp just took a stroll from the Balkans following the Danube into central Europe.

    Again I think Trojet will be better equipped to answer this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What test did you do? Maybe finding your terminal SNP can help answer that question for you individually.

    Since z631 seems Roman in nature, given


    *Cant help but notice the smooth green colored line on the image, from Souther Balkans across the danube to Central Europe.

    As you will be able to see here a lot of branch diversity in Albanians, with a TMRCAs > 2k ybp, so it is possible it was some Balkan legionaries.

    Nonetheless, seeing Czech and Pole L283 sharing 2k+ tmrcas with Albanians in more than one branch, I do not know how to explain that with Roman expansion. Maybe these people just moved different direction after getting to the Balkans through the Danube basin into Central Europe?

    This one for example looks like the German variant of L283


    However as you can see there is only 2 samples...

    So yeah its either Roman / Balkan Legionaries.
    Or these people >2k ybp just took a stroll from the Balkans following the Danube into central Europe.

    Again I think Trojet will be better equipped to answer this.
    I've only done 23andme and it assigned me J-Z631. I agree with your suggestions of Roman/Balkan legionnaires or people migrating via the Danube from the Balkans.

    However, I have another question. I've been reading through many threads, and I've seen many arguments regarding whether this was Illyrians or some other tribe. Isn't the term Illyrian just a vague definition for the collection of differing Western Balkan tribes of the era? There is also no country within that has dominant J-L283, even the Albanians, who currently appear to have the largest number of J-L283, still have E and I2 haplogroups being more predominate. Shouldn't efforts be focused on specific samples within the Albania area to see which towns have the highest proportion of J-L283. I also haven't seen the suggestion that the "Illyrians" may have absorbed a J-L283 group.
    Last edited by Galaxy Overlord; 24-05-21 at 04:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    What is the general consensus for the high rate of J-L283 in Wurttemberg Germany displayed on the phylogeographer heat map? Is it all just assumed to be Roman derived via settlements or forts, or a founder effect like in Russia?
    Roman mediated spread of L283 to Germany makes the most sense for most German L283s. I can’t speak for all the different branches of L283, but in the case of my branch (PH1602), the majority of samples are German (FTDNA). PH1602 is easy to spot because it almost always has DYS456 = 12. Most all of these kits are Germans. Along with CTS6190, it is the only other branch with no samples found amongst Albanians. So I’m under the impression it was born in NW Balkans, but has some ties with northern Italy thereafter. Because the Etruscan from Rome was CTS6190, which is a parallel branch to PH1602, I sometimes wonder if PH1602 is somehow connected to Etruscans or these Rhaetian people in northern Italy. Rhaetians were highly regarded as legionaries by the Romans. So this could be one possible avenue for L283’s spread of younger branches from south to north within Europe (most of these L283 branches were 2900 years old or younger). Of course Z631 would also be one of these branches, too. Many German L283s belong to Z631.

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