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Thread: The “Yamnaya” Were Not The Ancestors Of The “Corded Ware” And “Bell Beakers”

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    The “Yamnaya” Were Not The Ancestors Of The “Corded Ware” And “Bell Beakers”

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/...-bell-beakers/

    This blog post by Razib Khan caught my eye.

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    Great find Jovialis!
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Interesting, thanks Jovialis.

    He writes:
    I think the other option, that there’s unsampled paternal diversity, is more plausible. I labeled where the 2015 Yamnaya were sampled from. It seems like they’re on the eastern end of the Yamnaya range. Anthony in The Horse, The Wheel, and Language, seems to lean toward the position that these eastern Yamnaya were culturally more significant than the less nomadic western Yamnaya. That’s fine, but I think it was the western Yamnaya that were the precursors to the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware. In my conversation with Nick Patterson he mentions that the Reich lab has detected Corded Ware who descend from the Yamnaya samples genealogically. How to square this with what I’m saying above?
    So instead of whole Yamnaya, he thinks it's only the western Yamnaya that were precursors to Corded Ware and Bell Beakers ? It's still Yamnaya... or am I missing something ?

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    I'm not sure of the title actually ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/...-bell-beakers/

    This blog post by Razib Khan caught my eye.
    Odd timing, with lectures and new samples expected this June, and new papers going through peer review. Any mention that Polish Corded Ware are R1b-L51+ and not paternally related to R1a-Z93, Unlike Yamnaya L23+ sample I0443(Z2105-L51-)?
    How about, Hungarian and or Polish Bell Beaker samples with R1b-Z2103/Z2109+ being related to Yamnaya R1b-KMS67+ ? Any mention of R1b-Z2103 found in Sintashta burials? How about iron age Latins? How about Armenia? How, about Iran? How about Sarmatians? Any mention of paradox Z2110 branch found in Eastern Europe and Ossetia?
    Any mention of SGC Denmark R1b-V1636+ also found in close proximity to Yamnaya kurgans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Interesting, thanks Jovialis.
    He writes:
    So instead of whole Yamnaya, he thinks it's only the western Yamnaya that were precursors to Corded Ware and Bell Beakers ? It's still Yamnaya... or am I missing something ?
    ???? ????? ????

    I can’t answer you.
    I'll just highlight some excerpts that arouse curiosity:

    Razib says:
    ‘It needs to be noted that it turns out direct descendants of the Yamnaya R1b (***) variant are present in Eastern Europe and the steppe to this day. A Russian group has found Yamnaya R1b in Crimean Tatars, and this lineage is also found in Chuvash. Basically, the eastern Yamnaya ancestry has been sloshing around the steppe for thousands of years. After 2000 BC they were absorbed into Indo-Iranians, but their far eastern outliers, the Afanesievo maintained some cultural continuity in the form of the Tocharian languages.’

    This is the paper linked by Razib:
    (***) Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y‐chromosomal landscape of West Asia

    Abstract

    Y-chromosomal variation in West Asian populations has so far been studied in less detail than in the neigh- boring Europe. Here, we analyzed 598 Y-chromosomes from two West Asian subregions—Transcaucasia and the Armenian plateau—using 40 Y-SNPs and 17 Y-STRs and combined them with previously published data from the region. The West Asian populations fell into two clusters: upland populations from the Anatolian, Armenian and Ira- nian plateaus, and lowland populations from the Levant, Mesopotamia and the Arabian Peninsula. This geographic subdivision corresponds with the linguistic difference between Indo-European and Turkic speakers, on the one hand, and Semitic speakers, on the other. This subdivision could be traced back to the Neolithic epoch, when upland populations from the Anatolian and Iranian plateaus carried similar haplogroup spectra but did not overlap with low- land populations from the Levant. We also found that the initial gene pool of the Armenian motherland population has been well preserved in most groups of the Armenian Diaspora. In view of the contribution of West Asians to the autosomal gene pool of the steppe Yamnaya archaeological culture, we sequenced a large portion of the Y-chromosome in haplogroup R1b samples from present-day East Euro- pean steppe populations. The ancient Yamnaya samples are located on the “eastern” R-GG400 branch of haplogroup R1b-L23, showing that the paternal descendants of the Yamnaya still live in the Pontic steppe and that the ancient Yamnaya population was not an important source of paternal lineages in present-day West Europeans.

    The Paper:
    https://labs.icb.ufmg.br/lbem/pdf/Ba...owlandAsia.pdf

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    Nice tree showing Armenian sample and Yamnaya+ downstream branches. CTS-7822 = Z2110.

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    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

    Only three individuals from Khvalynsk are published, andthey were first published in a report that did not mention thesite in the text (Mathieson et al. 2015), so they went largely un-noticed. Nevertheless, they are crucial for understanding theevolution of the Yamnaya mating network in the steppes. Theywere mentioned briefly in Damgaard et al (2018) but were notgraphed. They were re-analyzed and their admixturecomponents were illustrated in a bar graph in Wang et al (2018:figure 2c), but they are not the principal focus of any publishedstudy. All of the authors who examined them agreed that thesethree Khvalynsk individuals, dated about 4500 BC, showed EHGancestry admixed substantially with CHG, and
    not a trace

    ofAnatolian Farmer
    ancestry, so the CHG was a Hotu-Cave orKotias-Cave type of un-admixed CHG. The proportion of CHGin the Wang et al. (2018) bar graphs is about 20-30% in twoindividuals, substantially less CHG than in Yamnaya; but thethird Khvalynsk individual had more than 50% CHG, likeYamnaya. The ca. 30 additional unpublished individuals fromthree middle Volga Eneolithic cemeteries, including Khvalynsk,preliminarily show the same admixed EHG/CHG ancestry invarying proportions. Most of the males belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males,but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosomehaplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appearonly rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves.

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    Wang et al. (2018) discovered that this middle Volgamating network extended down to the North Caucasiansteppes, where at cemeteries such as Progress-2 andVonyuchka, dated 4300 BC, the same Khvalynsk-type ancestryappeared, an admixture of CHG and EHG with no AnatolianFarmer ancestry, with steppe-derived Y-chromosomehaplogroup R1b. These three individuals in the North Caucasussteppes had higher proportions of CHG, overlapping Yamnaya.Without any doubt, a CHG population that was not admixedwith Anatolian Farmers mated with EHG populations in theVolga steppes and in the North Caucasus steppes before 4500BC. We can refer to this admixture as pre-Yamnaya, because itmakes the best currently known genetic ancestor for EHG/CHGR1b Yamnaya genomes. The Progress-2 individuals from NorthCaucasus steppe graves lived not far from the pre-Maikopfarmers of the Belaya valley, but they did not exchange mates,according to their DNA.The hunter-fisher camps that first appeared on the lowerVolga around 6200 BC could represent the migration northwardof un-admixed CHG hunter-fishers from the steppe parts of thesoutheastern Caucasus, a speculation that awaits confirmationfrom aDNA. After 5000 BC domesticated animals appeared inthese same sites in the lower Volga, and in new ones, and ingrave sacrifices at Khvalynsk and Ekaterinovka. CHG genes anddomesticated animals flowed north up the Volga, and EHGgenes flowed south into the North Caucasus steppes, and thetwo components became admixed. After approximately 4500 BCthe Khvalynsk archaeological culture united the lower andmiddle Volga archaeological sites into one variablearchaeological culture that kept domesticated sheep, goats, andcattle (and possibly horses). In my estimation, Khvalynsk mightrepresent the oldest phase of PIE.

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    my view :

    yamna, corded ware & bell beaker had their origin in the admixture that happened around 6 ka in the Volga and Caspian steppe areas

    that is the only link between them

    I don't see why Yamna should be a precursor for Bell Beaker

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    The Reich lab now has whole-genome aDNAdata from more than 30 individuals from three Eneolithiccemeteries in the Volga steppes between the cities of Saratovand Samara (Khlopkov Bugor, Khvalynsk, and Ekaterinovka),all dated around the middle of the fifth millennium BC. Manydates from human bone are older, even before 5000 BC, butthey are affected by strong reservoir effects, derived from a dietrich in fish, making them appear too old (Shishlina et al 2009),so the dates I use here accord with published and unpublisheddates from a few dated animal bones (not fish-eaters) in graves.

    I don't understand why these 30
    whole-genome aDNAdata haven't been published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

    Only three individuals from Khvalynsk are published, andthey were first published in a report that did not mention thesite in the text (Mathieson et al. 2015), so they went largely un-noticed. Nevertheless, they are crucial for understanding theevolution of the Yamnaya mating network in the steppes. Theywere mentioned briefly in Damgaard et al (2018) but were notgraphed. They were re-analyzed and their admixturecomponents were illustrated in a bar graph in Wang et al (2018:figure 2c), but they are not the principal focus of any publishedstudy. All of the authors who examined them agreed that thesethree Khvalynsk individuals, dated about 4500 BC, showed EHGancestry admixed substantially with CHG, and
    not a trace

    ofAnatolian Farmer
    ancestry, so the CHG was a Hotu-Cave orKotias-Cave type of un-admixed CHG. The proportion of CHGin the Wang et al. (2018) bar graphs is about 20-30% in twoindividuals, substantially less CHG than in Yamnaya; but thethird Khvalynsk individual had more than 50% CHG, likeYamnaya. The ca. 30 additional unpublished individuals fromthree middle Volga Eneolithic cemeteries, including Khvalynsk,preliminarily show the same admixed EHG/CHG ancestry invarying proportions. Most of the males belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males,but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosomehaplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appearonly rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves.
    Thanks a lot for the excerpt Bicicleur... I wont if that J is J2B2. Would substantiate some fringe theories I have been interested in as of late.

    Edit: After seeing your following post Bicicleur: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ulative-Theory Check the last couple of posts where I was arguing the old consensus that z2013 came through Anatolia against what most resources from 10-5 years ago were hinting from the research I found online.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Nice tree showing Armenian sample and Yamnaya+ downstream branches. CTS-7822 = Z2110.
    R1b-M269 is ancestral to both Yamna and Bell Beaker
    it is 13200 years old and TMRCA split is 6400 years
    yet, not a single pré-R1b-M269 or R1b-M269 has been found older than the Yamna
    neither was it found in Khvalynsk
    all of a sudden, one of it's branches, R1b-Z2103 exploded

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    R1b-M269 is ancestral to both Yamna and Bell Beaker
    it is 13200 years old and TMRCA split is 6400 years
    yet, not a single pré-R1b-M269 or R1b-M269 has been found older than the Yamna
    neither was it found in Khvalynsk
    all of a sudden, one of it's branches, R1b-Z2103 exploded
    R1b-L23+ is the snp that links L51+ and Z2105+, it is downstream from M269.
    On the other hand Hunter Gatherer sample from Lebyazhinka Volga-Samara region is M73+>Y13872+. M73 shares common ancestry with M269+. If one looks at Yamnaya kurgans, on the Volga, they are around I0124. The burial grounds on the Volga are very old; and shared by different branches of R1b, including -M269-R1b-M73-R1b-V1636+. Yamnaya retained the traditional hunter gatherer pottery from the region.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rly_Bronze_Age

    Pottery from the Volga area in the Samara and South Urals region from Eneolithic to Early Bronze Age


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    my view :

    yamna, corded ware & bell beaker had their origin in the admixture that happened around 6 ka in the Volga and Caspian steppe areas

    that is the only link between them

    I don't see why Yamna should be a precursor for Bell Beaker
    Then you will have to reclassify Eastern R1b-Z2105>z2109+ Hungarian-Bell Beakers, and Polish Bell Beakers; sample like I2787 & I7044 as not belonging to the Bell Beaker culture-R1b-L51+
    I7044-Bell Beaker, 2500-2200 BCE R1b-Z2109+Genetiker has Light skin- Blond/ D-blond- Blue eyes I2787-Bell Beaker-Hungary,2457-2201-Light skin, Red hair- Brown eyes

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/19/y-snp-calls-for-bell-beaker-genomes/

    https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.c...antas-six.html


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    Csepel Island was a place where traders meat :

    The Szigetszentmiklós occupants are considered by the osteologist to be highly heterogeneous and that may be evident in the craniometrics of the four individuals genetic tested here, 49, 133, 552, 688 (table 4 of Köhler). This cemetery is also, according to Kitti Köhler, the first time in the history of this Carpathian region that the Bell Beaker ethnic type is determined.

    As we look to the Olalde paper, the Szigetszentmiklós individuals are in a genetic sense, a society of mixed ancestries. The individual pictured above (I2787) has the highest concentration of the Steppe-like ancestry of any individual within the Beaker world, and probably Western Europe for that matter. At the same rate, Szigetszentmiklós has an individual (I2741) who exhibits nearly zero Steppe-like ancestry.

    It may be tempting to over-interpret the heterogeneity from Szigetszentmiklós, especially having an individual with such elevated Steppe-related ancestry, buried in the Beaker format. But there are several different narratives for these four individuals that can't yet be excluded.

    When you look at grave 688 (I2787), you will see below his Y-chromosome haplogroup is identified as R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) which is unlike almost all Bell Beakers (that can be discerned) but absolutely like many of the Yamnaya sequenced to date. This can mean several things, but one reasonable possibility is that I2787 was ethnically half Bell Beaker and half Tisza Yamnaya. I could imagine his father as a relatively unmixed Yamnaya pastoralist from across the Tisza River and that his mother was an ethnic Central European Bell Beaker, which is why he was entitled to Beaker rites at Szigetszentmiklós.

    It could also be viewed as fray from a region that in some past time sent out founder lineages; but whether true or not, I don't think that would really describe this man's personal history, not on Csepel Island. Some sites on the island have ridiculous quantities of horse remains. I2787's family history may reflect the horse trade and networks that connected different peoples in this area. Maybe his parents were some of those different peoples.

    The DNA on Csepel Island is very heterogenous.
    There were also Iberian Bell Beakers on Csepel Island :

    1359 I2741 Bell_Beaker Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő Hungary BK_Hungary_Sfu1 Bell_Beaker_Hungary Sfu 2457-2153 calBCE (3835±35 BP, Poz-83641) -2305 -2457 -2153 4153 M I-L158 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/ Iberico leemboeren OlaldeNature2018 H1-e https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H1-e/

    GEN_20, Grave 49 47,383224 19,020252 M H1+16189 H1-T16189C! https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt-dna-haplotree/H;name=H1-T16189C! H1-e https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H1-e/ H1 H




    I2a1a1 I2a1a1


    I2a1a1a I2-M26(xL160) I-M26 I-M26 https://www.familytreedna.com/public...e/I;name=I-M26 I-L158 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L158/ I2a1a1a(xI2a1a1a1a1) I2>CTS2257>L460>P37>CTS595>M26 I I2L460
    871912
    OlaldeNature2018 2457-2153 calBCE (3835±35 BP, Poz-83641) -2305 4305 -2457 -2153
    Bell_Beaker BK_Hungary_Sfu1 Bell_Beaker_Hungary Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő Sfu Hungary 0

























































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































    Csepel is a likely meeting point between Iberian and continental (R1b-L51) Bell Beakers.
    As pointed out, the R1b-Z2103 on Csepel Island may have been mere horse traders.
    Csepel Island is a possible starting point from where continental Bell Beakers expanded, but it is certainly not a typical Yamna place.



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    the 4 Csepel Island samples spanned the extremes between Yamna and Anatolia Neolithic

    I2741 had Iberian neolithic DNA and was L158/M26, a typical Iberian haplogroup (which later also expanded in Sardegna)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    R1b-L23+ is the snp that links L51+ and Z2105+, it is downstream from M269.
    On the other hand Hunter Gatherer sample from Lebyazhinka Volga-Samara region is M73+>Y13872+. M73 shares common ancestry with M269+. If one looks at Yamnaya kurgans, on the Volga, they are around I0124. The burial grounds on the Volga are very old; and shared by different branches of R1b, including -M269-R1b-M73-R1b-V1636+. Yamnaya retained the traditional hunter gatherer pottery from the region.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rly_Bronze_Age

    Pottery from the Volga area in the Samara and South Urals region from Eneolithic to Early Bronze Age
    R1b-L23 split 6,2 ka, way before Yamna expansion.
    Yamna was exclusive R1b-Z2103, no L51, except on the periphery, there would be one R1b-L51 in Afanasievo, but that was not from where R1b-L51 expanded later on.
    As R1b-M269 was never detected prior to Yamna, I don't think R1b-M269 originated in Khvalynsk, nor on the Caspian and Volga steppes.
    R1b-P279 was detected in the Volga-Baltic area, not on the steppe.
    I think Repin culture was R1b-M269, they arrived in the Don-Volga around 6 ka and mixed with late Khvalynsk.
    They came from the northern woodlands, possibly on the run for the expanding combed ware people (R1a).

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    Razib Khan has no idea what he is talking about, and his knowledge of Chalcolithic in Europe is very scarce. D Anthony is an archaeologist and his idea that neither L51>P312 nor R1a-M417 has been found at Yamnaya because Z2103 was the elite and the others the lower class who did not even deserve to be buried decently is one of the biggest stupidities that has been said lately. Anthony has a very basic knowledge of genetics and relies on the interpretations of the Harvardians who continue to make fools of themselves.

    The truth is that no such lineage has been found in any of the steppe cultures. Genomes of Khvalynsk and Sredni Stog are yet to be published and L51 has not been found in either of them. Those of Sredni Stog are all Z2103 so everyone can imagine which is the origin of Yamnaya. Neither have they found that lineage in Afanasievo (the P310 sample they have is garbage and Harvard has recognized it), Repin, Yamnaya, Catacomb etc. Balanovosky was right to differentiate eastern and western R1b and Razib Khan has only publicly acknowledged what we have been saying for years - there is no L51 in the steppes and there is no genetic continuity in the markers. To say that this lineage will be found in western Yamnaya is wishful thinking, he has no proof and never will.

    Regarding the Hungarian BBs it is comical to think that the sites closest to the steppes are the most heterogeneous that have been found (shouldn't it be the other way around, i.e. that invasions or migrations should be more homogeneous the closer they are to the place of origin?). The Hungarian Bbs come from Moravia and are a mixture of the descendants of the first Yamnaya migrants (Z2103 and I2aL699), the local neolithic farmers (G2a, H) and as bicicleur says there are also some with Iberian blood. The migrations from Iberia have also been demonstrated archaeologically because in Csepel island have been located copper halberds identical to those of the Spanish sites and also a horse analyzed has a good percentage of genetic relationship with the Iberian horses. The BBs stopped the Indo-European expansion in Hungary and R1b-L51 has absolutely nothing to do with the steppes, the more time they take to recognize it, the more ridiculous they will be.

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    Beaker_Hungary_no_steppe:I2741-Szigetzentmiklós Felső Ürge (2.306 BC)-Grave 49-HapY-I2a1a/1-Mit-H1-Male individual lying of his left side, in contracted position-The rectangular shaped grave pit, oriented northeast–southwest, was enclosed by a round ditch. Grave goods include a Bell Beaker, a bowl, a stone wrist-guard and a dagger. This is the guy with Zero steppe ancestry- This man is more iberian than me

    (1) Distance-1.875%
    48.44-Iberia-Southwest-CA
    28.91-Czech-MN
    6.25-Baden-LCA
    4.69-Tisza-LN
    3.91-Wales-N
    3.91-Globular Amphora
    3.12-Koros-Hg-14971
    1.56-Ukraine-Eneolithic

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    @bicicleur 2 & Gaska

    Whats your opinion of the genotype trait map ?

    Figure 2 diagram.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/exd.14142

    Skin colour and vitamin D: An update

    Andrea Hanel, Carsten Carlberg



    First published: 03 July 2020
    https://doi.org/10.1111/exd.14142

    4 HISTORY OF SKIN LIGHTENING IN EUROPEANS

    The genetic history of today’s European populations is based on continuous migrations over the past 40 000 years. Homo sapiens arrived in Europe from Near East some 42 000 years ago.[48, 49] Like in their African origin, these humans had dark skin but due to variations of their OCA2 gene (causing iris de***mentation) many of them had blue eyes[48, 50] (Figure 2, left). At that time, still ancestral Neanderthal hominins lived in Europe, whom had arrived from Africa at least some 400 000 years earlier.[50-52] Through interbreeding with modern humans, the Neanderthalers were outnumbered[53] and disappeared a few thousand years

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    @bicicleur 2 & Gaska

    Whats your opinion of the genotype trait map ?

    Figure 2 diagram.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/exd.14142

    Skin colour and vitamin D: An update

    Andrea Hanel, Carsten Carlberg



    First published: 03 July 2020
    https://doi.org/10.1111/exd.14142
    I think what we have is still quite phragmented.
    It is hard to draw a line and make solid conclusions.

  23. #23
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    I am pitching in a bit late. When the first paper about the Yamna culture's Y-DNA was published in 2015, I pointed out a few possible reasons explaining why the R1b samples were all Z2103. Those reasons were:

    1) Few samples were tested and hardly any came from the western Yamna in Ukraine, but mostly from the Volga region and around Kalmykia.

    2) Practically all the samples tested came from elite burials (kurgans). As royal families tend to share a same patrilineal lineage, it would make sense that most elite burials in a same region of the Yamna culture belong to the same haplogroup. That, however, does not mean that it is representative of the population as a whole.

    No R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 have been found in the Yamna culture yet, but they suddenly pop up in Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Unetice cultures along with Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA. The only reasonable explanation is that they did come from the Yamna culture, but were simply not represented among the few elite burials tested so far. They cannot have just appeared out of thin air from nowhere!
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  24. #24
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    L51 suddenly pop up in Swiss dolmens typical of megalithic culture (Aesch, Auvernier, Burgaschisee-2.750 BC)- aprox 150 years later it appears in the BBC (Kromsdorff) and 300 years later in the CWC (Althausen and southern Poland). Two of the Swiss Neolithic farmers (Auvernier and Burgaschisee) can be modeled perfectly without steppe ancestry while Aesch25 despite having a mitochondrial lineage typical of EEFs seems to be close to the CWC. Both bottlenecks and a massive founder effect can explain their sudden appearance and in any case we cannot ignore the Swiss samples because even if they had their origin in the steppes we would be dealing with solitary explorers buried in dolmens, i.e., mixed with EEFs and therefore rapidly acculturated. It seems impossible that these men were able to impose their language on the local farmers.

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    The Ukrainian and Russian steppes are one of the most genetically analyzed regions in the world, there are dozens of samples to be published but the leaks still do not speak of M269>L51 neither in khvalynsk nor in sredni stog, not even in Repin. Eneolithic Progress is V1636 like khvalynsk and in yamnaya Hungary there are only z2103 and I2a-L699, the chances of finding L51 in the steppes are much lower than six years ago. There are also rumors about L51 in Bulgaria and they could be true as we have Smyadovo-M269 (4,500 BC). To solve the mystery we not only have to keep looking in the steppes, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, France or Iberia can still give us many surprises.

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