steppe theory and western europe

Status
Not open for further replies.
As for the second statement, from the FSTs I've seen and some papers, Europe seems a subgroup in the western eurasian cluster, so it does seem that your average north European is genetically more similar to your average south european than even the most european-shifted near eastener (barring individuals with recent european ancestry);

forgot to add some Fst-values again

Greek/Turkish:0.003
Greek/Armenian:0.004
Greek/German:0.004
Greek/Lebanese_Muslim:0.004
Greek/Polish:0.005
Greek/Iranian:0.006
Greek/Norwegian:0.007
Greek/Palestinian:0.008
Greek/Lithuanian0.010

sry but it is as Jovialis said with Near east. the term europe is a geopolitical term that has no genetic meaning. i already had the same argument countless times because statements such as yours are made constantly and most often with politcal intentions.
 
That would not surprise me one bit. Too many renowned geneticists/anthropologist are floating that theory.
As you can see from a thread I started regarding L283 and CHG, I myself am leaning towards that theory.

Personally, I do not see why it would matter... Too many people are brainwashed with propaganda IMO. >6kya our ancestors were all over, and given how many ancestors we have since 6kya, if we take 5 generations per 100 years, 2^(6000x5/100) ~ 2.04e+90....* this whole trend of applying modern prejudices to ancient populations is useless.
(*http://dgmweb.net/Ancillary/OnE/NumberAncestors.html , but of course you have to keep in mind repetitions/inbreeding since that number 2.04e+90 dwarfs the number of humans that ever lived https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12288594/)



But as you say I am sure a bunch of steppe supremacists/middle east prejudists, might get butthurt... as if north or south of the Caucasus really matters.

Edit: Pretty much agree with the previous 4 comments.

it is something few people realise

just think
the human population - like any other living creatures can grow exponentialy if there are no constraints
we are 7,5 billion on earth now, which seems a very large number
yet, give a healthy man and a female a new fresh planet earth, let there be enough food and water, and let there be no diseases or other diseasters
they will reproduce and within a 1.000 years, they'll be 7,5 billion too
yet modern humans already exist 200.000 years - there has been an enourmous selection
just go back 2.000 years in time, you'll see we have already a lot of ancestors in common
 
forgot to add some Fst-values again

Greek/Turkish:0.003
Greek/Armenian:0.004
Greek/German:0.004
Greek/Lebanese_Muslim:0.004
Greek/Polish:0.005
Greek/Iranian:0.006
Greek/Norwegian:0.007
Greek/Palestinian:0.008
Greek/Lithuanian0.010

sry but it is as Jovialis said with Near east. the term europe is a geopolitical term that has no genetic meaning. i already had the same argument countless times because statements such as yours are made constantly and most often with politcal intentions.

I have checked the FST of the study, and they are beyond nonsense:
Sicilian-south Italian: 0.016 (!)
Sicilian-Saudi: 0.0012
Sicilian-north Italian: 0.002
Greek-Iranian: 0.006
Greek-Ashkenazi jew: 0.006
Greek-Jordanian: 0.006
Greek-Irish: 0.006 (!)
Sicilian-Jordanian: 0.004
Sicilian-Lebanese: 0.004

Now, I report these because I have some more profound knowledge about these pops so I am sure that the values are totally incompatible with one another, that is that there is no way that Sicilians are closer to Jordanians or Lebanese than to Ashkenazi jews, and there is no way that Greeks are equidistant from Irish, Jordanians, Iranians and Ashkenazi jews- the results about south Italians are utterly trash.
I have seen other inconsistencies of this kind but think it is enough to show that it is not reliable. I linked another paper, though old, that show other results, and though I admit that Europe isn't a "genetic stronghold", that is that every European is going to be closer to another European, it is also true that there is a significant "clumpiness" in the way Europeans cluster, and I take it as a standard view that "European" as a genetic subgroup has a certain validity-id est that though you can get greater distance between the extremities, e.g. Greeks and Finnish, than between one of the extremeties and another group, e.g Greeks and Lebanese, there is still a greater nearness between the extremeties and central groups, e.g. Greeks and Germans, than between one of the extremities and another group.
 
The founder of the R1b-L23 haplogroup (R1b1a1a2a) was born on the Western Steppe (Pontic-Caspian Steppe) around 4,400 BC (6.4 kya). R1b-L51 (R1b1a1a2a1) is its descendant founded in Central Europe around 5,000 years ago, which is why a L51 sample has not been found among the steppe herders. Z2013 is another descendant of R1b-L23.

r1bz2103.png



This phylogenetic tree is outdated.

M335 Anatolia????,
L754 Near east???-No, Villabruna Italia
V88 Levant, Africa????-No, Balkans
M73 Central and South Asia-NO, Baltic countries-Kunda and Narva cultures
M269 Caucasus???? No, Bulgaria, Smyadovo (4.500 a.C.
L51 este de europa -No, Switzerland, neolithic dolmens (2.750 a.C.)

Yamnaya is not the origin but the sink of R1b.We have to keep looking for L51 and it is certainly not in any culture of the steppes.
 
The three pillars of Western culture are the Christian religion, Greek philosophy and Roman law. None of them have their origin in Northern Europe or the steppes, nor do they have anything to do with the Levant or Africa.
 
Christianity is originally from the Levant actually

Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk
 
Christianity is originally from the Levant actually

Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

Yep, same as Jewish and Muslim religion.
 
I have checked the FST of the study, and they are beyond nonsense:
Sicilian-south Italian: 0.016 (!)
Sicilian-Saudi: 0.0012
Sicilian-north Italian: 0.002
Greek-Iranian: 0.006
Greek-Ashkenazi jew: 0.006
Greek-Jordanian: 0.006
Greek-Irish: 0.006 (!)
Sicilian-Jordanian: 0.004
Sicilian-Lebanese: 0.004

Now, I report these because I have some more profound knowledge about these pops so I am sure that the values are totally incompatible with one another, that is that there is no way that Sicilians are closer to Jordanians or Lebanese than to Ashkenazi jews, and there is no way that Greeks are equidistant from Irish, Jordanians, Iranians and Ashkenazi jews- the results about south Italians are utterly trash.
I have seen other inconsistencies of this kind but think it is enough to show that it is not reliable. I linked another paper, though old, that show other results, and though I admit that Europe isn't a "genetic stronghold", that is that every European is going to be closer to another European, it is also true that there is a significant "clumpiness" in the way Europeans cluster, and I take it as a standard view that "European" as a genetic subgroup has a certain validity-id est that though you can get greater distance between the extremities, e.g. Greeks and Finnish, than between one of the extremeties and another group, e.g Greeks and Lebanese, there is still a greater nearness between the extremeties and central groups, e.g. Greeks and Germans, than between one of the extremities and another group.


there is a problem with the south italian sample i think because it has high values with everything.
the rest seems reasonable for me. jewish populatins might be drifted away so they get higher values. for a similar reason the south-italian sample is further away. i think he used the same samples in the study about minoans. Jovalis linked a clip where he explains why this is the case.
you are just calling it non-sense because it doesn't fit your agenda.

btw i looked at the Fst table that you linked, which is older, and i could make the same arguments with that table too. there the irish are as far away from greeks as the palestinians.

as for the last statement with the central group, what exactly do you define as central group? and even the exampel with the germans isn't true. question to the moderators, why do you not call out something like this, but in my case it is immediately clear that i must have an agenda?
 
Last edited:
Yamnaya is EHG+ CHG +EEF (15-20%)-Wang et al.-The problem is that Yamnaya components may overlap with ancestral European components. Chalcolithic Europeans were primarily WHG+ EEF (Iberia and GAc had 25% WHG) so there is already a small percentage of identical genome despite being at opposite ends of Europe.

Moreover EEF in Yamnaya is western shifted with a good percentage of WHG, EHG is ANE +WHG (more coincidence because WHGs can also be modeled with small percentages of ANE) and CHG is a mixture with DZ, but there is also no doubt about the genetic relationship between CHG and WHG (they even share some male uniparental markers such as C1a2). By this I mean, that none of the Yamnaya autosomal components is totally foreign to Europe and that only small percentage differences between regions can be detected. Perhaps the percentage of EHG is the key to understand the progression of this ancestry in mainland europe because CHG was already in Greece and Italy during the neolithic.
 
All Europeans have Levantine blood through the EEFarmers, however the Phoenician colonies (at least in Spain) and the Carthaginians left hardly any genetic traits in Iberia. There was a strong Jewish population although they have not left many genetic traces due to the expulsion of 1492, these Sephardic settled in Portugal, North Africa, Sicily, Holland, Italy and even Greece and Anatolia and may have influenced the Levantine component of Italy and Greece. The Jews betrayed the Gothic kings and surrendered some important Spanish cities to the Moors with the first Muslim invasion, the revenge of the Christians was one of the main reasons for their expulsion.


As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was born precisely in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This phylogenetic tree is outdated.

M335 Anatolia????,
L754 Near east???-No, Villabruna Italia
V88 Levant, Africa????-No, Balkans
M73 Central and South Asia-NO, Baltic countries-Kunda and Narva cultures
M269 Caucasus???? No, Bulgaria, Smyadovo (4.500 a.C.
L51 este de europa -No, Switzerland, neolithic dolmens (2.750 a.C.)

Yamnaya is not the origin but the sink of R1b.We have to keep looking for L51 and it is certainly not in any culture of the steppes.


These labellings are due to the (first?) believings and theories of Maciamo (whose I respect the allover work) putting the Y-R1b cradle into South Caucasus/Anatolia regions at least since the L278/M335 levels, what I doubted a long time ago.
But for L51, I doubt it was born in Switzerland, even if it could have "exploded" there. It would be nice having more L23/L51/L11 in ancient and recent times.
 
All Europeans have Levantine blood through the EEFarmers, however the Phoenician colonies (at least in Spain) and the Carthaginians left hardly any genetic traits in Iberia. There was a strong Jewish population although they have not left many genetic traces due to the expulsion of 1492, these Sephardic settled in Portugal, North Africa, Sicily, Holland, Italy and even Greece and Anatolia and may have influenced the Levantine component of Italy and Greece. The Jews betrayed the Gothic kings and surrendered some important Spanish cities to the Moors with the first Muslim invasion, the revenge of the Christians was one of the main reasons for their expulsion.


As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was born precisely in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.

Christianity could not have been born in opposition to Islam since it was born more than 500 years earlier. Nor was Islam born "in opposition to Christianity"; indeed, parts of the New Testament are included in the Koran.

Nor was Christianty "born" in opposition to Judaism; it was an outgrowth or "sect" of Judaism for a very long time. The two religions only split later.

You might want to read the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls, or more particularly the Acts of the Apostles. The fact that once Christianity became the religion of the Empire it turned on Jews is besides the point.

More recently, the facts have been acknowledged, including by modern Popes.

You're aware, are you not, that your Bible includes the "Old Testament"? Without Judaism there is no Christianity.

As for Jews and Moors having left no genetic legacy behind whatsoever I highly doubt that's the case. The yDna profiles tell a different tale. Of course, the expulsions in Spain as in Sicily and parts of Southern Italy had their effect, and the legacy is much less than it could have been.
 
All Europeans have Levantine blood through the EEFarmers, however the Phoenician colonies (at least in Spain) and the Carthaginians left hardly any genetic traits in Iberia. There was a strong Jewish population although they have not left many genetic traces due to the expulsion of 1492, these Sephardic settled in Portugal, North Africa, Sicily, Holland, Italy and even Greece and Anatolia and may have influenced the Levantine component of Italy and Greece. The Jews betrayed the Gothic kings and surrendered some important Spanish cities to the Moors with the first Muslim invasion, the revenge of the Christians was one of the main reasons for their expulsion.


As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was born precisely in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.

Where the hell do you get this from? The Gothic period ended in the 8th century. The Catholics expelled the Jews in 1492.
 
The Muslims in Puglia for example, were centralized in Lucera, until it was destroyed. Many were killed or fleed to Albania, or sent to slavery. The Jews were also eventually expelled, because the local population drove them out with violence.

The attack, aided by treachery inside, was led by Giovanni Pipino da Barletta, count of Altamura.[14] A few rich and well connected families of Lucera Muslims opted for a fast, and very opportune, conversion to Christianity.
The majority of the city's Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered or – as happened to almost 10,000 of them – sold into slavery,[1] with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[15] Their mosques were demolished or the buildings reconverted back to churches, such as the cathedral S. Maria della Vittoria.[16] Even most of those Muslims that converted to Christianity were sold as slaves.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_settlement_of_Lucera
 
Last edited:
I said-As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was born precisely in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.

1-Islam began with the preaching of Muhammad in 622 A.D. in Mecca

2-Christianity entered Iberia during Roman times,

3-In 587, the Gothic king Recaredo I converted to Catholicism, which, after the III Council of Toledo in 589, became the state religion and freedom of worship was not tolerated. At that time most of the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula were pagans, especially in the north, Basque Country, Cantabria, Asturias, north of Castile, and had constant wars with the Goths.

4-The Muslim invasion of 711 made the northern kingdoms adopt Catholicism as one more of their signs of identity. This means that at least in Iberia, Catholicism was adopted by the majority of the population as a national reaction to Islam.

Then I should have been more precise in my sentence and should have said-“As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was adopted as national religion in Iberia in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.

Regarding the comments about the Jews, I don't think that the rest of the European countries have been more tolerant than the Spaniards (maybe the Portuguese, Italians and Greeks). In Spain the history is more complicated because not only were they always considered responsible for the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, but also because they betrayed the Goths by handing over important cities to the Muslims and when the Reconquista advanced, they became usurious lenders (they not only lent to the Christian farmers, they also collected taxes for the nobles, financed wars and lent to the kings). The interest rates were onerous, and pride prevented them from recognizing the hatred people had against them. The result was the expulsion of 1,492, although racist acts against them have been documented since the 11th century (in fact, they always lived in separate neighborhoods and had their own laws).I particularly think that the expulsion took place for economic (the Catholic kings were ruined after centuries of fighting against the Moors, in fact some Jews financed the voyage of discovery of America) and social reasons (mainly envy for the wealth accumulated by the Jews) - In my village lived 22 Jewish families, their property was confiscated and sold (at very low prices, demonstrating the greediness of Christian ***ers) and all of them went to Portugal within the period stipulated in the decree of expulsion

Despite the attempts of many leftist politicians to make us believe that Spain was an example of coexistence of the three great cultures, the truth is that relations were never good or exemplary. It has been a long time since the Spaniards have asked forgiveness to the Jews for the expulsion, their descendants can opt for the Spanish nationality and in many cities of Spain there are monuments of great philosophers, writers, doctors, mathematicians etc... (Jews and Muslims) who are considered as our countrymen in spite of the racial and religious differences.


And regarding genetics, the truth is that the Jewish/Levantine contribution to Iberian genetics is close to zero in terms of both uniparental markers and autosomal DNA. Before the "genetic boom" we Spaniards thought we were very similar to Italians, now it has been demonstrated that this is only partially true because we are very similar to northern Italians and southern French, but the genetic distances with southern Italians (and Greeks and Balkanites in general are very evident). In spite of being all Mediterranean peoples we have very different genetic histories.
 
Great. Now we have an apologist for anti-semitism here. This site is going down every day.

First of all, you contradict yourself out of your own mouth.

You admitted the northern kingdoms adopted Christianity BEFORE the Muslim invasion. Second of all, you don't know your own history. In the 500s most of Spain was already Christian, not pagan.

"There is some archaeological evidence of Christianity slowly penetrating the Peninsula from Rome and Roman Mauretania via major cities and ports, especially Tarragona, since the early 2nd century. The Paleo-Christian Necropolis of Tarragona, with 2,050 discovered tombs, dates back to the second half of the 3rd century. Saints like Eulalia of Mérida or Barcelona and many others are believed to have been martyred during the Decian or Diocletianic Persecutions (3rd–early 4th centuries). Bishops like Basílides of Astorga, Marcial of Mérida or the influential Hosius of Corduba were active in the same period.Theodosius I issued decrees that effectively made Nicene Christianity the official state church of the Roman Empire.,[87][88] This Christianity was already an early form of Catholicism.

The 7th-century Visigothic church of San Pedro de la Nave

As Rome declined, Germanic tribes invaded most of the lands of the former empire. In the years following 410 the Visigoths—who had converted to Arian Christianity around 360—occupied what is now Spain and Portugal. The Visigothic Kingdom established its capital in Toledo; it reached its high point during the reign of Leovigild (568-586). Visigothic rule led to a brief expansion of Arianism in Spain, however the native population remained staunchly Catholic.[citation needed] In 587 Reccared, the Visigothic king at Toledo, converted to Catholicism and launched a movement to unify doctrine. The Council of Lerida in 546 constrained the clergy and extended the power of law over them under the blessings of Rome. The multiple Councils of Toledo definitively established what would be later known as the Catholic Church in Spain and contributed to define Catholicism elsewhere."


Third of all, the reason the Jews were money lenders was because the Church at the time made borrowing money at interest a sin. Then they realized you couldn't have commerce, trade, growth of the economy without borrowing money so they told the Jews to do it. The biggest borrowers from the Jews were the Kings for their armies and for the aristocrats. Then, when they couldn't pay they fomented the riots by the ignorant poor, although the incentive to kill the people to whom you owe money when you can't pay it back is obvious. Even if money lending wasn't what they wanted to do, they had few options because they were forbidden to own land. In Italy they once had thriving estates, there's proof in my own area, but the Church forced the state to, in effect, steal them. The Visigothic rulers of Spain enforced these and other discriminatory decrees. No wonder the Jews turned on them and welcomed the Muslims; they hoped things would be better and more tolerant under them, and they were. I would have done the same thing. When you totally mistreat people, how do you have the gall to hate them for turning on you? The fault also lay with ignorant, barely literate priests preaching Jews were Christ killers without even acknowledging that the Christ and Mary and most of the saints to whom they prayed were all Jews. How could any rational interpretation of Christianity lead to the conclusion that Christ would have wanted the people into whom he was born and whose teachings sprang from Judaism killed.

It's all complete nonsense, and to try to excuse it away is an abomination.

I also think you clearly haven't looked at the yDna of the Iberian peninsula, or contemplated why the genetics of the Pais Vasco, and more so, the French Basques of whom they once probably formed a part, is different from the majority of the Spanish people. As just one example, get info on the distribution of J1 and E-M81 in Iberia. Is it huge? No, for obvious reasons, but it's there.

Before you post it would be nice if you educated yourself about the topic, including the history of your own country.
 
I said-As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was born precisely in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.

1-Islam began with the preaching of Muhammad in 622 A.D. in Mecca

2-Christianity entered Iberia during Roman times,

3-In 587, the Gothic king Recaredo I converted to Catholicism, which, after the III Council of Toledo in 589, became the state religion and freedom of worship was not tolerated. At that time most of the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula were pagans, especially in the north, Basque Country, Cantabria, Asturias, north of Castile, and had constant wars with the Goths.

4-The Muslim invasion of 711 made the northern kingdoms adopt Catholicism as one more of their signs of identity. This means that at least in Iberia, Catholicism was adopted by the majority of the population as a national reaction to Islam.

Then I should have been more precise in my sentence and should have said-“As far as Christianity is concerned, it was obviously born in the Levant, but the Catholic Church was adopted as national religion in Iberia in opposition to Judaism and Islam, which are religions that can be considered "Levantine "-In any case, this is not the subject of this thread.

Regarding the comments about the Jews, I don't think that the rest of the European countries have been more tolerant than the Spaniards (maybe the Portuguese, Italians and Greeks). In Spain the history is more complicated because not only were they always considered responsible for the death of our Lord Jesus Christ, but also because they betrayed the Goths by handing over important cities to the Muslims and when the Reconquista advanced, they became usurious lenders (they not only lent to the Christian farmers, they also collected taxes for the nobles, financed wars and lent to the kings). The interest rates were onerous, and pride prevented them from recognizing the hatred people had against them. The result was the expulsion of 1,492, although racist acts against them have been documented since the 11th century (in fact, they always lived in separate neighborhoods and had their own laws).I particularly think that the expulsion took place for economic (the Catholic kings were ruined after centuries of fighting against the Moors, in fact some Jews financed the voyage of discovery of America) and social reasons (mainly envy for the wealth accumulated by the Jews) - In my village lived 22 Jewish families, their property was confiscated and sold (at very low prices, demonstrating the greediness of Christian ***ers) and all of them went to Portugal within the period stipulated in the decree of expulsion

Despite the attempts of many leftist politicians to make us believe that Spain was an example of coexistence of the three great cultures, the truth is that relations were never good or exemplary. It has been a long time since the Spaniards have asked forgiveness to the Jews for the expulsion, their descendants can opt for the Spanish nationality and in many cities of Spain there are monuments of great philosophers, writers, doctors, mathematicians etc... (Jews and Muslims) who are considered as our countrymen in spite of the racial and religious differences.


And regarding genetics, the truth is that the Jewish/Levantine contribution to Iberian genetics is close to zero in terms of both uniparental markers and autosomal DNA. Before the "genetic boom" we Spaniards thought we were very similar to Italians, now it has been demonstrated that this is only partially true because we are very similar to northern Italians and southern French, but the genetic distances with southern Italians (and Greeks and Balkanites in general are very evident). In spite of being all Mediterranean peoples we have very different genetic histories.

Yet you proceed to slander the entire Jewish people, and absolutely without cause. No one attacked you, or Spain as a whole, over what happened 500 years ago. You weren't asked to justify ethnoreligious animosity that happened half a millennium ago, yet you did.
 
Gaska: In regards to post 95 I am not going to get into the history of Spain, DNA of Spain, etc, etc, as I have mentioned over and over again, I stay for most part in my own lane with respect to Modern DNA, that is I focus on the DNA History of Italy and in particular Southern Italy and Sicily. However, in the context of the Catholic Church, while I am no fan of the current Pope (Francis) I am Catholic. With respect to Jews, It was the late Pope John Paul II who referred to the Jews as the "elder brothers in faith". Since Vatican Council II I think the Catholic Church, correctly, has worked to address the notions of anti Jewish sentiment that yes was present in some Catholic circles even in the 20th century. I think the fact that most of the Bishops at Vatican II were European and less than 20 years earlier, Europeans were killing each other in mass numbers in WW2 was a driving factor for the Council to address, correctly, this question.

Now I don't know your background but the only folks that I see still with the anti Jewish beliefs are the Sedevacantist, who hold the last valid Pope was Pius XII, who died in 1958. Some SSPX followers of the late Abp Marcel Lefebvre of Switzerland who died in 1991.

While yes I recognize secular Leftwing politicians in many European countries are de facto anti Catholic and yes try to remove the role Christendom played in the development of Europe (It 100% did in my opinion along with the foundations of Greco-Roman Culture) speaking only in the context of a Catholic, I hope you are not justifying anti Jewish sentiment in the name of Catholicism.
 
Antisemitism??? Did you read my comment?

*”It has been a long time since the Spaniards have asked forgiveness to the Jews for the expulsion, their descendants can opt for the Spanish nationality and in many cities of Spain there are monuments of great philosophers, writers, doctors, mathematicians etc... (Jews and Muslims) who are considered as our countrymen in spite of the racial and religious differences”

* “In my village lived 22 Jewish families, their property was confiscated and sold (at very low prices, demonstrating the greediness of Christians”

*I particularly think that the expulsion took place for economic and social reasons (mainly envy for the wealth accumulated by the Jews)

First of all- I said “Christianity entered Iberia during Roman times”- and I have also said, that only after Recaredo I (587 DC), the Goths renounced Arianism (which is obviously not the same as Catholicism because they denied the dogma of the Holy Trinity). In other words, many Spaniards were Christians, but many of them were heretics. I understand that you want to give me lessons about the history of Spain, but I can recommend many books that talk about paganism in Iberia during the Roman Empire and the Visigothic Kingdom. Many inhabitants of northern Spain were pagans and I repeat, only the Muslim invasion made the people adopt Catholicism as a sign of identity to face the Muslims.

Second of all- I don't know what you mean because I haven't seen your second point.

Third of all-You said-“No wonder the Jews turned on them and welcomed the Muslims”

You realize that you are justifying the betrayal of the Jews to their Spanish compatriots? - they did not suffer the Muslim invasion and prospered for centuries in Al Andalus, while the Christians of the north had to endure centuries of war, famine and destruction - three Muslim invasions (including the Almoravids and Almohads), hundreds of villages, convents and churches burned and looted, women kidnapped, tribute paid and extortion, war, war, war and more war. Poverty and destruction for which the Jews were co-responsible. Does it surprise you that Christians hated the Jews?, that is a consequence of our history, to say that they betrayed us is anti-Semitism, to say that they lent at very high interest rates is anti-Semitism?, to say that thousands of families were ruined to pay the interest is anti-Semitism?, what would you think if Italy had been annihilated by a horde of Africans? Only Catholicism held the Northern kingdoms together in their struggle against the Moors. For me what is an abomination is to justify treason for economic and religious reasons, however it seems that you justify the behavior of the Jews and criticize the Christian Goths, Ok many people think like you.

*I am not an expert in uniparental markers linked to the Jewish people, but unlike other European countries J1 in Spain is certainly an anecdote and I do not know of any mitochondrial marker that can link Iberia to Levant. Maybe some expert in this forum could tell me which are those Levantine markers that we have to look for in Spain, perhaps some subclades of J2, T or E1b can be linked to the Jews

Last paper published in Spain-Conrado Martinez-Cadenas (2.016)- R1b (68.20), J2 (9.60), E1b (8.70), I2 (7.20), G2a-M201 (3.20), R1a (1.60), T-M70 (1.30), J1-0.20

Malaga, Córdoba, Huelva, Valencia, Castile, Catalonia, Cantabria, Basque Country-0.000%
Asturias-1.64%

J1 subhaplogroups although highly abundant in Arabia where it reaches levels of 40-75, in Iberia, it has only detected in Andalusia in southern Spain and at a minimal frequency of 1,1% (Semino et al, 2004).

Regarding E-M81 it has nothing to do with the Jews but with the Moors.
 
Gaska: In regards to post 95 I am not going to get into the history of Spain, DNA of Spain, etc, etc, as I have mentioned over and over again, I stay for most part in my own lane with respect to Modern DNA, that is I focus on the DNA History of Italy and in particular Southern Italy and Sicily. However, in the context of the Catholic Church, while I am no fan of the current Pope (Francis) I am Catholic. With respect to Jews, It was the late Pope John Paul II who referred to the Jews as the "elder brothers in faith". Since Vatican Council II I think the Catholic Church, correctly, has worked to address the notions of anti Jewish sentiment that yes was present in some Catholic circles even in the 20th century. I think the fact that most of the Bishops at Vatican II were European and less than 20 years earlier, Europeans were killing each other in mass numbers in WW2 was a driving factor for the Council to address, correctly, this question.

Now I don't know your background but the only folks that I see still with the anti Jewish beliefs are the Sedevacantist, who hold the last valid Pope was Pius XII, who died in 1958. Some SSPX followers of the late Abp Marcel Lefebvre of Switzerland who died in 1991.

While yes I recognize secular Leftwing politicians in many European countries are de facto anti Catholic and yes try to remove the role Christendom played in the development of Europe (It 100% did in my opinion along with the foundations of Greco-Roman Culture) speaking only in the context of a Catholic, I hope you are not justifying anti Jewish sentiment in the name of Catholicism.

Of course not, the Catholic Church has also changed a lot in the last 500 years. After the expulsion, the Holy Inquisition burned converted Jews and Moors, both in Spain, Italy, or America. Now we can be friends but in the past we were not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

This thread has been viewed 11830 times.

Back
Top