The Serbian nation their genetics

[Illyricum]

you will know every nation lies about its origin ...............50% are lies and fabrications to appease the populace under them.

Serbs are thracian in origin , with a small mix of a Illyrian invasion of circa 500BC , which they resisted.

you need to also consider the invitation of philip v of macedon to the bastanae ( 110,000 men women and children from the Carpathian mountain areas ) to be settled in Serbia as a buffer from "Illyrian" invasion from the North West.

The only original "illyrians" today ( I do not believe there ever were illyrians , but people named Illyians under the roman area of Illyricum ) are Dalmatians of Croatia who are still seeking autonomy from Croatia and the Bosnians , dregs of ancient pannonian people

Albanians are a mix of Dardanians, Paeonians and Epirotes which is why they have a lot of "greek" admixture ......................the Romans knew who they where dealing with in the west balkans as they held modern coastal north Albania since the Hannibal wars

I had heard this theory that the Serbs could be Thracians, but I prefer not to comment on the subject, besides do you have a source what you say?

 

[Archetype0ne]

»It is, perhaps, not generally remembered that the greatest warrior and one of the most illustrious emperors of the part of the Roman world were of Slavic origin (?). The vernacular name of which Justinian is the Latin translation(?) was Upravda(?), or "the Upright;" and his invincible general Belisarius was a Dardanian Slav(?) named Beli-czar(?), or "the White Prince."«

Source (title of work): "Darwinism, and other essays"
Page: 220-221
Author: Edmund Fiske Green (1842-1901), ie. John Fiske, American philosopher and historian
Publisher: MacMillan and Co.
Place of printing: New York (United States of America: 1776–)
Year: 1879
Language: English
Letter: Latin

No offense man. But you could do with some grade school text books that are not from 1879, maybe you will learn something. Cause I really doubt you can meta analyze such deep and complicated topics if you insist on century old sources. But anyways, on this one I will help cause I feel the fremdschämte.

Justinian was born in Tauresium,^[9]Dardania,^[10] around 482. A native speaker of Latin (possibly the last Roman emperor to be one),^[11] he came from a peasant family believed to have been of Illyro-Roman^[12][13][14] or Thraco-Roman origins.^[15][16][17]

• Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 2008, ISBN 1593394926, p. 1007.
• The Inheritance of Rome, Chris Wickham, Penguin Books Ltd. 2009, ISBN 978-0-670-02098-0 (p. 90). Justinian referred to Latin as his native tongue in several of his laws. See Moorhead (1994), p. 18.
• Michael Maas (2005). The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1139826877.
• Treadgold, Warren T. (1997). A history of the Byzantine state and society. Stanford University Press. p. 246. ISBN 978-0-8047-2630-6. Retrieved 12 October 2010.
• Barker, John W. (1966). Justinian and the later Roman Empire. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 75. ISBN 978-0-299-03944-8. Retrieved 28 November 2011.
• Robert Browning (2003). Justinian and Theodora. Gorgias Press. ISBN 978-1593330538.
• Shifting Genres in Late Antiquity, Hugh Elton, Geoffrey Greatrex, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2015, ISBN 1472443500, p. 259.
• Pannonia and Upper Moesia: A History of the Middle Danube Provinces of the Roman Empire, András Mócsy, Routledge, 2014, ISBN 1317754255, p. 350.

Belisarius was probably born in Germania, a fortified town of which some archaeological remains still exist, on the site of present-day Sapareva Banya in south-west Bulgaria, within the borders of Thrace and Paeonia, or in Germen, a town in Thrace near Orestiada, in present-day Greece.^[2] Born into an Illyrian^[3][4][5][6] or Thracian^[7] family that spoke Latin as a mother tongue, he became a Roman soldier as a young man, serving in the bodyguard of Emperor Justin I.^[8]

• Robert Graves, Count Belisarius and Procopius’s Wars, 1938
• Treadgold, Warren T. (1997). A history of the Byzantine state and society. Stanford University Press. p. 246. ISBN 978-0-8047-2630-6. Retrieved 12 October 2010.
• Barker, John W. (1966). Justinian and the later Roman Empire. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 75. ISBN 978-0-299-03944-8. Retrieved 28 November 2011.
• History of the Later Roman Empire: From the Death of Theodosius I to the death of Justinian volume 2, by J. B. Bury p.56
• Count Marcellinus and His Chronicle by Brian Croke, p.75
• Tucker, Spencer C. (2010). Battles that changed history : an encyclopedia of world conflict (1st ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. 88. ISBN 978-1-59884-429-0.
• Evans, James Allan (1 October 2003). The Empress Theodora: Partner of Justinian. University of Texas Press. p. 52. ISBN 978-0-292-70270-7. Retrieved 1 May 2011.

But either way, if you insist on using sources from 200 years ago, make sure to check the sources of your sources of your sources.

Alemanus seems to be the start of the whole confusion in 1650s quoting a biography by Theophilus he supposedly found in the Vatican archives, which as early as 1750 could not be found at the Vatican... Yet, Theophilus *Died in 537 yet supposedly wrote the biography of the guy who outlived him by 30 years(Justinian d.565)... The whole chain of people quoting and sourcing each other starts with the weakest link in 1600's and even missing documentation from the V-VI century.




But anyways here is the source you are using in PDF: https://ia802301.us.archive.org/28/items/darwinismotheres00fiskuoft/darwinismotheres00fiskuoft.pdf from Fiske.

And here you can find the sources of your source, as well as a good meta analysis of the whole debate going back to Justinian himself:
HOW JUSTINIAN BECAME A SLAV:THE STORY OF A FORGERY by Michael B. Petrovich

* https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/viewFile/950/958 *

If you have any doubts about the author (Michael B Petrovich): https://www.historians.org/publicat...ember-1989/in-memoriam-michael-boro-petrovich



After you read the article, I hope you realize that you need some contemporary elementary book (that reviewed the sources for you), or if you are going to use a source from 1879, make sure to peer review it yourself, since peer reviewing at the time happened over hundreds of years.

As you can see by the time John Fiskes 1600's source (Alemanus) was peer reviewed by Slavist scholars and published in 1885, John Fiske had no chance to know of the matter, since he published his essays in 1879. I hope you can wrap your head around that.

Either way read the article I provided if nothing else.

Edit:
Just finished reading the article... What a ride.
If anyone reads the article (pdf) by Michael B Petrovich they will see how deep the rabbit hole of fabrications/falsifications goes... Maybe Dobrica Cosic had a point, but I doubt he had any idea how far back it stretches. Lying is an art it seems, but the people that fall for it, are not art aficionados, rather willful fools.

"The Englishman Bryce had been prepared to believe that, despite hiserrors, Mrnavić had been acting in good faith in relying on a source or tradition he believed to be true. Some of Mrnavić’s countrymen were muchharder on him. Jagić called him “the cunning Tomko Mrnavić” and “thisphantasy-ridden man whose lies were artistically tendentious.” Šišić compared him to Herostratus; Radojčić called him a “learned deceiver,” and“a charlatan on a big scale.” Did Mmavić deserve these epithets? A furtherlook at his career and works should provide the answer."

 

[Wonomyro]

Thomas Hyde : Linguâ Servianâ seu Illyricâ ,,Doctrina Christiana, cum Precibus, Psalmis & Litaniâ: item, Cogitationes Spirituales linguâ Servianâ seu Illyricâ." "Christian doctrine with prayers, psalms and litanies and spiritual thoughts in Serbian or Illyrian." View attachment 12720View attachment 12721View attachment 12722View attachment 12723 "Source and title of the work: Title: Catalogus impressorum librorum bibliothecae Bodleianae in Academia Oxoniensi, cura et opera Thomae Hyde, ... Authors: Thomas Hyde, La Chaize, Bibliothèque du Palais des Arts Publisher: e Theatro Sheldoniano, 1674 Original from: National Library of Lyon (Bibliothèque jésuite des Fontaines) Length: 752 pages

You should know that the term "lingua Illyrica" and simmilar has nothing to do with the ancient Illyrians. It was a kind of a fashion in the middle ages and later, among the western intellectuals, to name contemporary populations after the ancient ones. The term was, in most cases, used to name Croatian vernacular language, as well as the Coatian redaction of Church Slavonic. The "Serbian language" at the time was a Serbian redaction of Church Slavonic. Serbs were more often related to Triballi, sometimes to Dardanians and Moesians. The term Illyrians and Dalmatians were more often used for Croats. However, there were the exceptions of the rule.

 

[torzio]

You should know that the term "lingua Illyrica" and simmilar has nothing to do with the ancient Illyrians. It was a kind of a fashion in the middle ages and later, among the western intellectuals, to name contemporary populations after the ancient ones. The term was, in most cases, used to name Croatian vernacular language, as well as the Coatian redaction of Church Slavonic. The "Serbian language" at the time was a Serbian redaction of Church Slavonic. Serbs were more often related to Thracians, sometimes to Dardanians and Moesians. The term Illyrians and Dalmatians were more often used for Croats. However, there were the exceptions of the rule.

it is the same as Napoleon's Illyrian provinces ..............a lot of Venetian balkan lands he took after conquering the Venetian republic in 1797

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Provinces

 

[torzio]

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Illyria

since Illyrians are noted as origins in these lands ( my opinion it is further north than this area, north of modern Vienna IMO ) we have another attempt to form Illyria

 

[torzio]

as per the map attached in the link

Illyria could have been formed from the Venetian balkan lands if the rulers of Europe wanted when discussing the scenario at the congress of Vienna 1815-1820


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_rule_in_the_Ionian_Islands

 

[Illyricum]

No offense man. But you could do with some grade school text books that are not from 1879, maybe you will learn something. Cause I really doubt you can meta analyze such deep and complicated topics if you insist on century old sources. But anyways, on this one I will help cause I feel the fremdschämte.

Justinian was born in Tauresium,^[9]Dardania,^[10] around 482. A native speaker of Latin (possibly the last Roman emperor to be one),^[11] he came from a peasant family believed to have been of Illyro-Roman^[12][13][14] or Thraco-Roman origins.^[15][16][17]

• Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 2008, ISBN 1593394926, p. 1007.
• The Inheritance of Rome, Chris Wickham, Penguin Books Ltd. 2009, ISBN 978-0-670-02098-0 (p. 90). Justinian referred to Latin as his native tongue in several of his laws. See Moorhead (1994), p. 18.
• Michael Maas (2005). The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1139826877.
• Treadgold, Warren T. (1997). A history of the Byzantine state and society. Stanford University Press. p. 246. ISBN 978-0-8047-2630-6. Retrieved 12 October 2010.
• Barker, John W. (1966). Justinian and the later Roman Empire. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 75. ISBN 978-0-299-03944-8. Retrieved 28 November 2011.
• Robert Browning (2003). Justinian and Theodora. Gorgias Press. ISBN 978-1593330538.
• Shifting Genres in Late Antiquity, Hugh Elton, Geoffrey Greatrex, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2015, ISBN 1472443500, p. 259.
• Pannonia and Upper Moesia: A History of the Middle Danube Provinces of the Roman Empire, András Mócsy, Routledge, 2014, ISBN 1317754255, p. 350.

Belisarius was probably born in Germania, a fortified town of which some archaeological remains still exist, on the site of present-day Sapareva Banya in south-west Bulgaria, within the borders of Thrace and Paeonia, or in Germen, a town in Thrace near Orestiada, in present-day Greece.^[2] Born into an Illyrian^[3][4][5][6] or Thracian^[7] family that spoke Latin as a mother tongue, he became a Roman soldier as a young man, serving in the bodyguard of Emperor Justin I.^[8]

• Robert Graves, Count Belisarius and Procopius’s Wars, 1938
• Treadgold, Warren T. (1997). A history of the Byzantine state and society. Stanford University Press. p. 246. ISBN 978-0-8047-2630-6. Retrieved 12 October 2010.
• Barker, John W. (1966). Justinian and the later Roman Empire. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 75. ISBN 978-0-299-03944-8. Retrieved 28 November 2011.
• History of the Later Roman Empire: From the Death of Theodosius I to the death of Justinian volume 2, by J. B. Bury p.56
• Count Marcellinus and His Chronicle by Brian Croke, p.75
• Tucker, Spencer C. (2010). Battles that changed history : an encyclopedia of world conflict (1st ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. 88. ISBN 978-1-59884-429-0.
• Evans, James Allan (1 October 2003). The Empress Theodora: Partner of Justinian. University of Texas Press. p. 52. ISBN 978-0-292-70270-7. Retrieved 1 May 2011.

But either way, if you insist on using sources from 200 years ago, make sure to check the sources of your sources of your sources.

Alemanus seems to be the start of the whole confusion in 1650s quoting a biography by Theophilus he supposedly found in the Vatican archives, which as early as 1750 could not be found at the Vatican... Yet, Theophilus *Died in 537 yet supposedly wrote the biography of the guy who outlived him by 30 years(Justinian d.565)... The whole chain of people quoting and sourcing each other starts with the weakest link in 1600's and even missing documentation from the V-VI century.




But anyways here is the source you are using in PDF: https://ia802301.us.archive.org/28/items/darwinismotheres00fiskuoft/darwinismotheres00fiskuoft.pdf from Fiske.

And here you can find the sources of your source, as well as a good meta analysis of the whole debate going back to Justinian himself:
HOW JUSTINIAN BECAME A SLAV:THE STORY OF A FORGERY by Michael B. Petrovich

* https://ojs.lib.uom.gr/index.php/BalkanStudies/article/viewFile/950/958 *

If you have any doubts about the author (Michael B Petrovich): https://www.historians.org/publicat...ember-1989/in-memoriam-michael-boro-petrovich



After you read the article, I hope you realize that you need some contemporary elementary book (that reviewed the sources for you), or if you are going to use a source from 1879, make sure to peer review it yourself, since peer reviewing at the time happened over hundreds of years.

As you can see by the time John Fiskes 1600's source (Alemanus) was peer reviewed by Slavist scholars and published in 1885, John Fiske had no chance to know of the matter, since he published his essays in 1879. I hope you can wrap your head around that.

Either way read the article I provided if nothing else.

Edit:
Just finished reading the article... What a ride.
If anyone reads the article (pdf) by Michael B Petrovich they will see how deep the rabbit hole of fabrications/falsifications goes... Maybe Dobrica Cosic had a point, but I doubt he had any idea how far back it stretches. Lying is an art it seems, but the people that fall for it, are not art aficionados, rather willful fools.

"The Englishman Bryce had been prepared to believe that, despite hiserrors, Mrnavić had been acting in good faith in relying on a source or tradition he believed to be true. Some of Mrnavić’s countrymen were muchharder on him. Jagić called him “the cunning Tomko Mrnavić” and “thisphantasy-ridden man whose lies were artistically tendentious.” Šišić compared him to Herostratus; Radojčić called him a “learned deceiver,” and“a charlatan on a big scale.” Did Mmavić deserve these epithets? A furtherlook at his career and works should provide the answer."

I am not offended, I had made it clear that I would only put the old archives

 

[Wonomyro]

it is the same as Napoleon's Illyrian provinces ..............a lot of Venetian balkan lands he took after conquering the Venetian republic in 1797 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Provinces

Same case as with Britannia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia The country got its name from the name of a Roman province.

 

[einstein1337]

you will know every nation lies about its origin ...............50% are lies and fabrications to appease the populace under them.

Serbs are thracian in origin , with a small mix of a Illyrian invasion of circa 500BC , which they resisted.

you need to also consider the invitation of philip v of macedon to the bastanae ( 110,000 men women and children from the Carpathian mountain areas ) to be settled in Serbia as a buffer from "Illyrian" invasion from the North West.

The only original "illyrians" today ( I do not believe there ever were illyrians , but people named Illyians under the roman area of Illyricum ) are Dalmatians of Croatia who are still seeking autonomy from Croatia and the Bosnians , dregs of ancient pannonian people

Albanians are a mix of Dardanians, Paeonians and Epirotes which is why they have a lot of "greek" admixture ......................the Romans knew who they where dealing with in the west balkans as they held modern coastal north Albania since the Hannibal wars

These are of course absolutely nonsense theories. Most of these people, except for Albanians and Aromanians/Vlachs, are Slavs that invaded and colonized the Balkans and acquired some DNA basically while many of the natives still seemed to of held out against them. And I will prove this with historical texts of course. I will not post the entire texts as I cannot bother but just some pieces from Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs which you can google and find yourself.

While most details about the movement of the early Slavs into the Balkans are unclear, the basic facts are known. A large tribal population of Slavs - among whom the Serbs and the Croats were two particular tribes, or tribal groupings - occupied parts of central Europe, north of the Danube, in the fifth and sixth centuries ad. The Serbs had their power-base in the area of the Czech lands and Saxony, and the Croats in Bavaria, Slovakia and southern Poland. This central European location was not the earliest known home of the Serbs; most of the evidence points to an earlier migration from the north and north-eastern side of the Black Sea. At that earlier period the Serbs and Croats seem to have lived together with more warlike Iranian tribes, and their tribal names may derive from Iranian ruling elites: Ptolemy, writing in the second century ad, located the 'Serboi' among the Sarmatians (an Iranian grouping) on the northern side of the Caucasus. Little is known about the Slavs' way of life in these earlier periods. The first descriptions we have of them are by Byzantine writers, who portray them as a wild people, more pastoral than agricultural, with many chiefs but no supreme leader.

It was at this point, in the 610s or 620s, that the Emperor of the day (according to a detailed but somewhat confused account by a later Emperor-cum-historian, Constantine Porphyrogenitus) invited the Croats to come down from central Europe and deal with the Avar threat. This they did, bringing with them their neighbours, the Serbs. Both populations then settled in the territories abandoned by the Avars: the Croats in modern Croatia and western Bosnia, and the Serbs in the Rascia area on the north-western side of Kosovo, and in the region of modern Montenegro. In some of these areas they supervened on an already existing Slav population, which, as a result, must gradually have taken on a 'Croat' or 'Serb' identity. The Serbs did not have anything like a state at this stage, but they developed several small tribal territories, each called a zupa and ruled by a tribal chief known as the zupan. By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages.

Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.
Kosovo was to remain under Bulgarian or Macedonian rulers until 1014-18, when the army of the Macedonian-based Tsar Samuel died, his empire broke up, and Byzantine power was fully re-established by a strong and decisive Emperor, Basil 'the Bulgar-killer'. For nearly two centuries after that, Kosovo would stay under Byzantine rule

The Macedonians in Bulgaria are Bulgarians that invaded Macedonia, Kosovo and Albania in 900 AD. The name Macedonia was adopted later. See also: The truth about Macedonia.
Pretty much all their villages and towns were mentioned as Bulgarian next to Albanian.

There is also evidence that the Vlachs/Aromanians were the original inhabitants of Kosovo.

Under Serbian king Stefan Dusan there was a law against marriage with Vlachs. Reading the scriptures from medieval Kosovo they do not speak of any kind of assimilation, in fact quite the opposite, Vlachs were made to do their own work and were of low status almost equal to Slaves. Many are regarded to of moved out . Some Vlachs were mainly assimilated during the Ottoman period in Herzegovina and Montenegro, the Vlachs that remained in Kosovo were assimilated into Serbs and Albanians. While many had moved out. See the origin and migration of Romanians/Aromanians.


What is also Kosovo and Serbia today was not occupied by Serbs until the 12th century. Some of the Bulgarian dialects in Serbian developed only later during their expansion.

Kosovo did not fall within the Serb territory of Rascia, which was further to the north-west: the Serbian expansion into Kosovo began in earnest only in the late twelfth century.

Most of Serbia from 900 AD fell between Byzantine and Bulgarian rule. Nish included. Nothing suggests Serbs were ever the main population in any of these areas back then. They were in the West of the Balkans, in the Rashka region.


Your idea of directly identifying Balkan Slavs as direct descendants of pre-Slavic inhabitants pretty much fails. It is true that cultural assimilations have happened from all sides and essentially everyone is mixed in the Balkans.

 

[Mordred]

Nature does not know about Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians ... all Balkan nations are quite similar, like. eg Norwegians and Swedes. Our differences are purely cultural.
the theory that Serbs are Turkish is totally false, it is generally used by Albanian, Croatian and Bosnian nationalists. Serbian and Turkish DNA are very different
Serbs have very few "Slavs" genes (R-M458, which are considered typically Slovenian genes in our country are represented by a maximum of 12-15%)
Macedonians and Serbs have the most genes (96%). Besides, Greeks and Hungarians are most similar to us.
Here is a list of some peoples by genetic similarity with Serbs:


Macedonia 96%


Greece 66%


Hungary 65%


Ukraine 62%


Romania 61%


Lithuania 57%


Bulgaria 53%


Poland 52%


Italy 51%


Morocco 48%


Tunisia 43%


Turkey 42%


Russia 32%

How did you get these numbers of similarly. Or is this only your own calculations.

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