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Thread: The Serbian nation their genetics

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    The Serbian nation their genetics

    We will see here several criteria who are the Serbs ?, What is their connection with the Russians ?, Why do the old historical authors speak of the Serbs as indigenous in the region ?, Why are the Serbs close to the Romanians? this topic will first talk about the three haplogroups which is the majority among the Serbs, the I2, R1a and the E-V13 and the origin of the I2-Din haplogroup.

    I ask you, no provocation, no nationalist site, I first want to finish my topic which will take time (I am busy with work ...).
    We can debate at the end

    thank you for your understanding

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    Genetic findings


    Before analyzing the genetics of Serbs, the following should be taken into account. After the conquest of the Western Balkans by the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century, part of the population accepted Islam and became privileged. Most Muslims lived in Bosnia. In the middle of the 20th century, their descendants will get a new nationality, which they called Bosniaks at the end of the century, because the term Bosnians meant all three peoples in Bosnia. This nationality will also be accepted by Muslims from southern Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia, although they have nothing to do with Bosnia. This means that the genetics of Bosniaks are the same as the Serbian ones, and the only differences are the regional variations. A small number of Bosniaks consider themselves Islamized Croats, but they can only be those living in northwestern Bosnia.
    Last edited by Illyricum; 24-05-21 at 22:44.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Another problem is the genetics of Croats in Bosnia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. If you look at any map of the medieval states of Serbs and Croats, you will see that the border was on the river Cetina. Most of today's Croats on the territory of the medieval Serbian state were Serb Catholics. They were registered by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as Croats in the 19th century in order to strengthen the Croatian Catholic nation and weaken the Serbs in the Balkans. In order for the conversion of Serbs into Croats to succeed, the Serbian language with official Croatian was adopted. The real Croatian language is spoken only in the northwest of Croatia, which in the former Yugoslavia was known as the Kajkavian dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language.


    Today, there are two historical schools in Serbia: the classical one which claims that Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century as written by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus and the autochthonous school which claims that Serbs are natives of the Balkans, ie direct descendants of Illyrians and Thracians.

    more soon ...
    Last edited by Illyricum; 24-05-21 at 22:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    Another problem is the genetics of Croats in Bosnia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. If you look at any map of the medieval states of Serbs and Croats, you will see that the border was on the river Cetina. Most of today's Croats on the territory of the medieval Serbian state were Serb Catholics. They were registered by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as Croats in the 19th century in order to strengthen the Croatian Catholic nation and weaken the Serbs in the Balkans. In order for the conversion of Serbs into Croats to succeed, the Serbian language with official Croatian was adopted. The real Croatian language is spoken only in the northwest of Croatia, which in the former Yugoslavia was known as the Kajkavian dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language.


    Today, there are two historical schools in Serbia: the classical one which claims that Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century as written by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus and the autochthonous school which claims that Serbs are natives of the Balkans, ie direct descendants of Illyrians and Thracians.
    Both historical schools are wrong because the truth lies in between those two viewpoints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Both historical schools are wrong because the truth lies in between those two viewpoints.
    Sure what i will come to soon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    Another problem is the genetics of Croats in Bosnia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. If you look at any map of the medieval states of Serbs and Croats, you will see that the border was on the river Cetina. Most of today's Croats on the territory of the medieval Serbian state were Serb Catholics. They were registered by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as Croats in the 19th century in order to strengthen the Croatian Catholic nation and weaken the Serbs in the Balkans. In order for the conversion of Serbs into Croats to succeed, the Serbian language with official Croatian was adopted. The real Croatian language is spoken only in the northwest of Croatia, which in the former Yugoslavia was known as the Kajkavian dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language.


    Today, there are two historical schools in Serbia: the classical one which claims that Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century as written by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus and the autochthonous school which claims that Serbs are natives of the Balkans, ie direct descendants of Illyrians and Thracians.

    more soon ...

    In his book Serbia: The history of the Name, the British historian of Serbian roots Stevan K. Pavlović wrote:

    "I could not isolate a dispersed group of people called Serbs, which lives with other peoples, which was rarely united even when lived in the same country, and that I put under a microscope without distorting history"

    (translated from Serbian)

    I wonder how you are going to manage to put Serbs "under a microscope without distorting history"?
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 25-05-21 at 01:09.
    Neopisivo

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    interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    Another problem is the genetics of Croats in Bosnia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. If you look at any map of the medieval states of Serbs and Croats, you will see that the border was on the river Cetina. Most of today's Croats on the territory of the medieval Serbian state were Serb Catholics. They were registered by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as Croats in the 19th century in order to strengthen the Croatian Catholic nation and weaken the Serbs in the Balkans. In order for the conversion of Serbs into Croats to succeed, the Serbian language with official Croatian was adopted. The real Croatian language is spoken only in the northwest of Croatia, which in the former Yugoslavia was known as the Kajkavian dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language.


    Today, there are two historical schools in Serbia: the classical one which claims that Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century as written by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus and the autochthonous school which claims that Serbs are natives of the Balkans, ie direct descendants of Illyrians and Thracians.

    more soon ...
    So you started your topic called "The Serbian nation and their genetics" by claiming that the large part of Croatian nation are actually Serbs. Really?

    Why do you need that maneuver, I mean, to "convert" Croats to Serbs prior even starting to discuss Serbian genetics?


    Btw. "Catholic Serbs" is a fantasy concept created by certain 19th century slavists and later spread by Serbian nationalists.

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    you have to let me finish the text, I copy so I translate into English what is written in the book, you will understand at the end of the translation of the text

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    the passage which interests me of the three haplogroup which constitutes the Serbian nation begins with the title "genetic discovery"

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    I had made it clear on my first topic to let myself finish and after we can discuss, I am far from finishing today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    I had made it clear on my first topic to let myself finish and after we can discuss, I am far from finishing today.
    You made nothing "clear". You started with false premise. There was no such ethnicity as "Catholic Serbs". It is logically impossible! It would be something. like Hindu Muslim or wooden iron.

    Before modern times Serbs were exclusivelly Orthodox Christians. No others were ever called themselves "Serbs" as they knew very well what that term meant. Even nowadays you will hardly find any Serb who is not the believer of Serbian Orthodox Church (unless he is an atheist).

    As genetics has nothing to do with religion, good luck with your "research".
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 26-05-21 at 18:26.

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    For your question there are many Catholic Serbs, like Vito from Kotor for example, and Austrian archives.
    a Serbian does not mean Orthodox, there are several Serbian celebrities who have the Catholic faith

    Thanks, have a good day

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    For your question there are many Catholic Serbs, like Vito from Kotor for example, and Austrian archives.
    a Serbian does not mean Orthodox, there are several Serbian celebrities who have the Catholic faith
    Thanks, have a good day
    There are numerous documents that show that people from Kotor (Cattaro), especially those who were using Slavic language, considered themselves Croats througout history. However, the confusion about their ethnicity comes from the fact that Italians (Venetians) sometimes called the whole area "Servia", after a medieval Serbian empire that ruled over the neigbouring terriories. Therefore in Italian sources sometimes appears an exonym "Servian" to name locals. Local sources are, of course, more reliable. For them, "Serbs" were people from mountains, obviously Eastern Orthodox. If you wish I can present you the relevant historical sources, (not Serbian 19th century constructs).
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 26-05-21 at 01:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    For your question there are many Catholic Serbs, like Vito from Kotor for example, and Austrian archives.
    a Serbian does not mean Orthodox, there are several Serbian celebrities who have the Catholic faith
    Thanks, have a good day
    Regarding Austrian archives, there is also all kinds of nonsense there, especially in the light of the fact that, durring 18th and 19th centuries, Austria, as a Catholic empire, had a large problem to integrate Orthodox believers, who recently migrated from the Ottoman territories, into its society. One of their strategies was to "merge" Orthodox Serbs and Vlachs with Catholic Croats (at least the part of them) into one nation under the Serbian name. They believed that the Catholics would "take over" with the time and help keeping Serbs away from Russian influence.

    That project failed as it had no ground in reality. Unfortunately some of the ideas of that time still circulate among Serbian nationalists.

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    There are many documents which specify that the Catholics on the Dalmatian coast, for Kotor it was a mixed city, and rich in culture Vito de Kotor all the manuscripts specify although he is Serbian and it is from the Venetian archives.

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    I will post the documents that speak of Catholic Serbs at the end of my genetics topic.

    i have to leave you i'm hard at work

    ps: the word servia has no connection with the word serbia, the Serbian people do not mean people of bondage, the word SRB means family like the Slavic word which means glorious and not slave, it is an error of the Byzantine and Latin writers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    There are many documents which specify that the Catholics on the Dalmatian coast, for Kotor it was a mixed city, and rich in culture Vito de Kotor all the manuscripts specify although he is Serbian and it is from the Venetian archives.
    I already explained what ethnonym Servian meant in Venetian and Italian sources. It had regional meaning.

    The Church Slavonic term "Srblji" was used in texts produced by Serbian notars and priests.

    Local Catholics in Cattaro (Kotor) and Ragusa (Dubrovnik) were mostly using the term Rascian (Rašanin) for the Orthodox Serbs.

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    To make it all that even more clear let me point to an observation of Russin consule Aleksandar Fedorovič Giljferding (Александар Федорович Гиљфердинг) who visited Serbia and neighbouring lands in 19th century:

    Giljferding records in his travels an observation that for the Serbs nationality lies, to a great extent, in a religion rather than in a nation itself. Identical language, origin and customs are of lesser importance than the difference in religious affiliation. He further claims that this is not just a hypothesis, but that the people he talked to confirmed that and thus he arrived at a conclusion that depending on whether a man professes Orthodoxy, Catholicism or Islam, he is regarded as a member of the Orthodox, Catholic or Turkish nation. Members of the Orthodox church consider the Latins to be part of a completely separate social entity (and vice versa), not just in religious, but in "lay, national" sense as well. When asked what nation they belong to, these people tell you their religious affiliation. A common Serb can separate himself from a Greek or Bulgarian, but the feeling he is imbued with and which makes him a member of human society is not the feeling of nationality, but religious consciousness, as Giljferding indicates.

    Source: "Elements of ethnic identification of the Serbs"; Danijela Gavrilović; Faculty of Philosophy, Niš, Serbia

    "Latins" in the text are, of course, Catholics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    To make it all that even more clear let me point to an observation of Russin consule Aleksandar Fedorovič Giljferding (Александар Федорович Гиљфердинг) who visited Serbia and neighbouring lands in 19th century:

    Giljferding records in his travels an observation that for the Serbs nationality lies, to a great extent, in a religion rather than in a nation itself. Identical language, origin and customs are of lesser importance than the difference in religious affiliation. He further claims that this is not just a hypothesis, but that the people he talked to confirmed that and thus he arrived at a conclusion that depending on whether a man professes Orthodoxy, Catholicism or Islam, he is regarded as a member of the Orthodox, Catholic or Turkish nation. Members of the Orthodox church consider the Latins to be part of a completely separate social entity (and vice versa), not just in religious, but in "lay, national" sense as well. When asked what nation they belong to, these people tell you their religious affiliation. A common Serb can separate himself from a Greek or Bulgarian, but the feeling he is imbued with and which makes him a member of human society is not the feeling of nationality, but religious consciousness, as Giljferding indicates.

    Source: "Elements of ethnic identification of the Serbs"; Danijela Gavrilović; Faculty of Philosophy, Niš, Serbia

    "Latins" in the text are, of course, Catholics.
    That's the problem, in Serbia the nation is forged on an Orthodox Christian religious identity. Let us forget the Serbian Muslims, Serbian Catholics ...

    but it was not always so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    That's the problem, in Serbia the nation is forged on an Orthodox Christian religious identity. Let us forget the Serbian Muslims, Serbian Catholics ...
    but it was not always so.
    I agree. These never existed as real ethnicities.

    On the other hand, it is possible that members of any ethnic group become Serbs, even massively, only by falling under the Serbian Church jurisdiction. I have Aromanians (Tsintsars) on my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    I agree. These never existed as real ethnicities.

    On the other hand, it is possible that members of any ethnic group become Serbs, even massively, only by falling under the Serbian Church jurisdiction. I have Aromanians (Tsintsars) on my mind.
    The difference is that the Aromanians speak both Serbian and Romanian, and they are very well integrated in Serbia, it is also themselves who have refused to join the Roman Orthodox Church and declaring themselves Romanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyricum View Post
    The difference is that the Aromanians speak both Serbian and Romanian, and they are very well integrated in Serbia, it is also themselves who have refused to join the Roman Orthodox Church and declaring themselves Romanian.
    That was my point. Before the establishment of the modern Serbian language (created by Vuk Karadžić), it wasn't unusual for the Serbs to speak different languages. Could that be the reason why Serbian intelligentsia were sticking so hard to the artificial church language until 19th century? The first vernacular dictionary published as late as 1818. and wasn't very welcome by the Serb elite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    That was my point. Before the establishment of the modern Serbian language (created by Vuk Karadžić), it wasn't unusual for the Serbs to speak different languages. Could that be the reason why Serbian intelligentsia were sticking so hard to the artificial church language until 19th century? The first vernacular dictionary published as late as 1818. and wasn't very welcome by the Serb elite.
    Vuk Karadžić-Stefanović, to reform the Serbian language, the Serbian language has had 2 reforms in its history, this attachment is recent it dates after the second world war the division has played a lot, the dialects have formed languages, the leaders have played to the older ones, also the myth that the Serbs have 8000 Turkish words is false but that's another story

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    to answer the Serbs attached themselves very strongly to orthodoxy for the nationalists a Muslim Serbian where Catholic does not exist, the language did not play anything in there.

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