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Thread: The genetic structure of the Turkish population

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Attachment 12874
    A hasty pie chart of the haplogroups i ve made.
    i can't see it can you post it again ....
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    fdfvrfbgvr.jpg

    I hope it shows this time.

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    From the samples posted, the "C" ydna Anatolian Turks are 10-12% Siberian and East Asian and carry a little less Caucasus.

    The Eastern Black Sea men are all pretty similar; the "E-M123" men are no higher in SW Asian and their "Siberian" and East Asian is virtually non-existent.


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    From the days on Dienekes' blog, samples showed that the "Turkic" ancestry was higher in southern and western Anatolia, where there was documented settlement, and not present along the eastern Black Sea Coast.

    I wonder what the rest of these samples will show.

    I'm also very interested to see the autosomal composition of the people from around Van.

  5. #30
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    https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/540/


    p.s
    i am not sure all the samples in each y haplogroup present in this paper were uploaded
    to yfull though

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    ^^Wow, lots and lots of "E" and "G", and a much smaller amount of "C".

    No J2a, which is surprising.

    MtDna has a bit of Central Asian, but vast majority is not.

    My husband is G2a, and the source may be here. I wish he'd get deeper subclade tested.

    You seem to follow the yDna closely. If you have time perhaps you might give us who don't a quick overview of the type of E and G2a we're looking at, and "I" for that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Wow, lots and lots of "E" and "G", and a much smaller amount of "C".
    No J2a, which is surprising.
    MtDna has a bit of Central Asian, but vast majority is not.
    My husband is G2a, and the source may be here. I wish he'd get deeper subclade tested.
    You seem to follow the yDna closely. If you have time perhaps you might give us who don't a quick overview of the type of E and G2a we're looking at, and "I" for that matter.
    You should convince your hasbund
    To take an G2 snp pack
    Or better big y ...
    There are other companies beside ftdna
    Like yseq from germany
    And nebula genomics from usa
    Who sequence y haplogroup
    Then we can see if he have any connection to
    Those G2a in anatolia
    which i believe he might have
    As the early european farmer came from anatolia



    P.s
    The E are a mixture of e-m34 and e-v13 and
    Very small % e-v22
    E-m34 more in the eastern southern north areas
    E-v13 more in the west central

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    You should convince your hasbund
    To take an G2 snp pack
    Or better big y ...
    There are other companies beside ftdna
    Like yseq from germany
    And nebula genomics from usa
    Who sequence y haplogroup
    Then we can see if he have any connection to
    Those G2a in anatolia
    which i believe he might have
    As the early european farmer came from anatolia
    P.s
    The E are a mixture of e-m34 and e-v13 and
    Very small % e-v22
    E-m34 more in the eastern southern north areas
    E-v13 more in the west central
    Well, as to his G2a, either through original Anatolian farmers, or via Greeks, or directly from Anatolia. I don't know if the dating is precise enough to tell.

    How much of the total is E-V13 in the west? Do you know? The question then becomes did the Greeks leave it there or did it go from there to the Greeks. Anyone know which subclade is the oldest?

    I have to go back and read this paper and Supplement carefully. I'm very interested in the Turks, both because of their close ties to Europe and because one of my guilty pleasures when I want "romance" is some of their tv series; the less cheesy ones, of course. :) They're so much better than anything produced in America or the Spanish speaking world, and a bit exotic as well; a blend of east and west. Their films are higher quality and quite good, when their awful government doesn't obviously impact the content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/540/


    p.s
    i am not sure all the samples in each y haplogroup present in this paper were uploaded
    to yfull though
    The SRS8752557's is a very interesting result. It recently caused the split of G-L156 from G-P287.
    L156 and P287 used to be equivalents at the G2 level, but not anymore. So, apparently the former G2b became G2a, and this new sample would be alone as G2b, separated by ~25000 years from the G-L156.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    The SRS8752557's is a very interesting result. It recently caused the split of G-L156 from G-P287.
    L156 and P287 used to be equivalents at the G2 level, but not anymore. So, apparently the former G2b became G2a, and this new sample would be alone as G2b, separated by ~25000 years from the G-L156.
    Nice catch.
    Feel like G is a very old, widespread, and ever-present sample.
    Feel a bit bad not to be able to find much info on the net. Since branch too branch, as the example you just pointed out, is like J2a to J2b. Most of the times the academic tests are not even deep enough to even get any hint towards the historic context of the samples.

    When I tried doing research on G2-P15>L30>M406, despite countless ancient samples, most academic papaers were not even testing deep enough, to tell a 15kyo SNP...

    At which point I gave up the research. Would love if you have any info on this particular branch.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M406

    Makes me wonder if this would have been present in Albania as a early farmer Pellasgic group, or say as a Phoenician/Levant group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, as to his G2a, either through original Anatolian farmers, or via Greeks, or directly from Anatolia. I don't know if the dating is precise enough to tell.

    How much of the total is E-V13 in the west? Do you know? The question then becomes did the Greeks leave it there or did it go from there to the Greeks. Anyone know which subclade is the oldest?

    I have to go back and read this paper and Supplement carefully. I'm very interested in the Turks, both because of their close ties to Europe and because one of my guilty pleasures when I want "romance" is some of their tv series; the less cheesy ones, of course. :) They're so much better than anything produced in America or the Spanish speaking world, and a bit exotic as well; a blend of east and west. Their films are higher quality and quite good, when their awful government doesn't obviously impact the content.

    in the supplemental of this paper
    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/36/...b-figures-data

    i counted :

    3- e-v22
    14-e-v13
    21-e-m34




    out of the 14 e-v13
    3 in balkan ( probably mean european turkey region)
    3 in west
    3 in the north ( maybe this could be pontic greeks influence)

    2 in the east ( probably kurds)
    2 in region unknown
    1 in the south


    https://i.imgur.com/BplYV1j.jpg


    p.s
    so e-v13 is mainly in european turkey , west anatolia and north ( not in the central as i wrote in my previews post)
    the e-m34 branches in turkish population are ( e- L791 , e-pf6751, e-fgc18401 )
    it seem my extreme rare branch is levant bonafide
    no occurence above the levant
    not relgious or something but if i go by y haplogrouop i am a direct descendent of iron age kingdom of judea and maybe before that some part of cannanites
    some other branches of e-m84 did make it by expansion to anatolia and southern europe but not my branch that
    always stayed in the sunny levant
    Last edited by kingjohn; 01-10-21 at 11:06.

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    I'm rather surprised by all the E-M34 in Anatolia. So, it doesn't all signify Levant ancestry. :)

    The question still is open, I take it, whether the E-V13 is older in Anatolia or in the Balkans.

    I'd be quite thrilled if I were you that it's definitely a specifically Judean line, especially given that you're in fact Jewish, so it's connected to your actual autosomal ancestry, and not some artifact of ancestry that dates to a thousand years ago.

    By that I mean it's not like some African with R1b where it essentially means nothing in terms of actual ancestry.

  13. #38
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    Here is how it splitt for the 21 e-m34
    out of 21 e-m34:
    5 in east region ( might be kurds or armenians )
    5 in north region
    5 unknown region
    2 in balkan ( european turkey)
    2 in central region

    1 in west region
    1 in south region

    Let us remember
    Bronze age armenians 1200bc
    Rise423
    Rise416

    And
    ART015 Late chl arslantepe dated to 3200bc
    M84> pf6751

    I am open minded to expantion of some
    E-m34 branches from levant north to anatolia
    Just i dont think the expention was recent
    In order to find those ancients
    It might be those people didnt
    Even spoke a semitic language
    Maybe hurrian

    P.s
    Bonus
    BMAC culture Turkmenistan i2085
    gonurtepe 1800BC E1b1b1 someone checked
    His calls he was e-m34
    :

    So some e-m34 people didn't spoke
    Semitic language
    Bmac culture is indo-iranian or something
    Else
    So they mingled with j and r1b, r1a in those areas early on
    But afcorse many other branches of it are semitic like mine
    Last edited by kingjohn; 02-10-21 at 10:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Nice catch.
    Feel like G is a very old, widespread, and ever-present sample.
    Feel a bit bad not to be able to find much info on the net. Since branch too branch, as the example you just pointed out, is like J2a to J2b. Most of the times the academic tests are not even deep enough to even get any hint towards the historic context of the samples.

    When I tried doing research on G2-P15>L30>M406, despite countless ancient samples, most academic papaers were not even testing deep enough, to tell a 15kyo SNP...

    At which point I gave up the research. Would love if you have any info on this particular branch.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M406

    Makes me wonder if this would have been present in Albania as a early farmer Pellasgic group, or say as a Phoenician/Levant group.
    I remember to have posted something about it, and found the thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...900#post604900
    Following two other related posts: here and here.

    As Maciamo pointed out on Eupedia's G2a page, G-M406 (ED) was not found in Neolithic Euro so far, which would be in agreement with a possible later dispersal from around South Caucasus in BA, reaching Europe (and other parts of Middle East).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I remember to have posted something about it, and found the thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...900#post604900
    Following two other related posts: here and here.

    As Maciamo pointed out on Eupedia's G2a page, it was not found in Neolithic Euro so far, which would be in agreement with a possible later dispersal from around South Caucasus in BA, reaching Europe (and other parts of Middle East).
    he updated one G2a branch recently to neolithic croatia as per the August paper
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    he updated one G2a branch recently to neolithic croatia as per the August paper
    My post was about the G-M406.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I remember to have posted something about it, and found the thread.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...900#post604900
    Following two other related posts: here and here.

    As Maciamo pointed out on Eupedia's G2a page, G-M406 (ED) was not found in Neolithic Euro so far, which would be in agreement with a possible later dispersal from around South Caucasus in BA, reaching Europe (and other parts of Middle East).
    Thanks a lot Regio. Interesting.

    But if it was BA expansion into Europe. And it was somehow Caucasus related, it could not have been IE right? Steppe type of expansion for M406?
    There is a couple of Eneolithic M406 from around Western Anatolia... The problem is among two dozen G2a1's, only a few are tested deep enough, even in papers as new as 2018-19...
    So I am wondering could it have been part of the Initial wave of IE? The first IE languages, aka the Anatolian branches?
    Or was is some Caucasus to Anatolia migration not related to IE.

    Thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    in the supplemental of this paper
    https://www.pnas.org/content/118/36/...b-figures-data

    i counted :

    3- e-v22
    14-e-v13
    21-e-m34



    I ve always found it very perplexing the little E-V13 in Turkey.Taking in mind how extensive was the Greek colonization, and it was extensive, one would expect it to be more plenty full. Which can only mean that E-v13 arrived late in the lower half of the Greek state, probably with Dorians, after the bulk of the Greek colonization/migrations were completed and the fleeing Achaens/Ionians didnt have much E-v13 to begin with. Some Anatolian colonies go back in the early 1st millenia BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    I ve always found it very perplexing the little E-V13 in Turkey.Taking in mind how extensive was the Greek colonization, and it was extensive, one would expect it to be more plenty full. Which can only mean that E-v13 arrived late in the lower half of the Greek state, probably with Dorians, after the bulk of the Greek colonization/migrations were completed and the fleeing Achaens/Ionians didnt have much E-v13 to begin with. Some Anatolian colonies go back in the early 1st millenia BC.
    Yes,
    Although not high
    it fit like a glove to the areas
    Of greek colonies
    West, north,
    And don't forget cyprus 10-13% e-v13
    So some ancient greeks sailed
    To cyprus
    I am no expert on this
    Probably you know which greek group
    Colonised cyprus maybe myceneans


    p.s
    side note
    this horror could have reduced the number of e-v13
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Wow, lots and lots of "E" and "G", and a much smaller amount of "C".

    No J2a, which is surprising.

    MtDna has a bit of Central Asian, but vast majority is not.

    My husband is G2a, and the source may be here. I wish he'd get deeper subclade tested.

    You seem to follow the yDna closely. If you have time perhaps you might give us who don't a quick overview of the type of E and G2a we're looking at, and "I" for that matter.
    Hmm, what do you mean by no J2a, change the page number, there is a lot of J2a and R1b-Z2103 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Hmm, what do you mean by no J2a, change the page number, there is a lot of J2a and R1b-Z2103 as well.
    No need to get excited. I was responding to the data provided by King John.

    I'd be very interested to see the remaining y lines. Perhaps you can provide them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No need to get excited. I was responding to the data provided by King John.

    I'd be very interested to see the remaining y lines. Perhaps you can provide them.
    No, i am not, was just wondering whether we are looking at the same data: https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/540/?page=2

    From page 2 onwards we have J1, J2, and Q, R which probably is mostly R1b-M269 (Z2103?).

    I think the paper reflects previous studies. Anatolia is a melting pot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, i am not, was just wondering whether we are looking at the same data: https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/540/?page=2

    From page 2 onwards we have J1, J2, and Q, R which probably is mostly R1b-M269 (Z2103?).

    I think the paper reflects previous studies. Anatolia is a melting pot.
    Thanks for the additional samples.

    Yes, it certainly is, and I think it's reflected in their appearance.

    There's also real differences among Turks in terms of how "westernized" they are culturally. Right now, the much more traditional block is in control of course.

    I wonder what Ataturk would think of it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Thanks a lot Regio. Interesting.

    But if it was BA expansion into Europe. And it was somehow Caucasus related, it could not have been IE right? Steppe type of expansion for M406?
    There is a couple of Eneolithic M406 from around Western Anatolia... The problem is among two dozen G2a1's, only a few are tested deep enough, even in papers as new as 2018-19...
    So I am wondering could it have been part of the Initial wave of IE? The first IE languages, aka the Anatolian branches?
    Or was is some Caucasus to Anatolia migration not related to IE.

    Thanks again
    You're welcome!
    Which Chalco Western Anatolian are you referring to? I see four G-M406 from Central Anatolia, three from East Anatolia and one from North Anatolia. All of them about 5500 years old (so the dispersal in BA could have been from Anatolia).

    Notice that G-M406 (G2a2b1) and G-Z6552 (G2a1) are different clades.The latter is the predominant G branch in Ossetia, Georgia etc. G-U1 (under G2a2b2) in turn predominates in Circassia/Abkhazia (the related language is from the Northwest Caucasian family, unlike Ossetian), in the form of G-L1266 mainly. Interestingly, the sister clade G-L13 is very spread, despite its youth. It's found even in Xinjyang (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G/).

    As for the language issue, well, it's hypothesized that Maykop could be the source of the proto-Anatolian (see Kristiansen - scroll down). Even if true, we still would not know if G-M406 was present in the initial wave to Anatolia. One way or another, being so old in Anatolia, apparently the odds are that the clade was present among speakers of the Hittite language.
    All that said, even if proto-IE did originate outside the steppe, and we're not sure (yet), the common ancestor of modern IE languages would have started to spread with Steppe people most likely, as far as I know.
    Let's see the next chapters. :)

    Erratum: One of my own posts I quoted associated G2a to the spots in Kazakhstan, but I've meant simply G (not G2a). Those spots are from G1 actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Yes,
    Although not high
    it fit like a glove to the areas
    Of greek colonies
    West, north,
    And don't forget cyprus 10-13% e-v13
    So some ancient greeks sailed
    To cyprus
    I am no expert on this
    Probably you know which greek group
    Colonised cyprus maybe myceneans


    p.s
    side note
    this horror could have reduced the number of e-v13
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
    E-v13 may be low in most of Turkey. But consider it is only 20% in Greeks. So if the average in central Anatolia is, say 5%. Then it means that 25% of the population may have Greek ancestry. If E-V13 is 10% at the Aegaen coast of Turkey, then that would indicate half of their ancestry may be Greek. So a 8.9% average could indicate a max. of 45% Greek ancestry. Just saying. We have to think proportionally.
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 06-10-21 at 10:53.

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