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Thread: The genetic structure of the Turkish population

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    The genetic structure of the Turkish population

    The study conducted by Koç University is based on the samples collected for ALS disease, the samples collected irrespective of their ethnicity are referred to collectively as "Turkish" in the study.



    source:

    https://rpqv2z74kbdialxwkq6dwx7uvi-ac5fdsxevxq4s5y-www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.translate.goog/bioproject/674530?fbclid=IwAR2N4VdEizd1rbARPgwqteBYGwi1137Hu9 OsuStjv2LX25dskvSJSIiz8rE

    someone in anthrogenica ( began a spreadsheet with those samples which he will updated daily gedmatch )
    what he says:

    Here is an "ethnicity prediction" spreadsheet where we add each sample's ADMIXTURE and oracle results. You can see the GEDmatch IDs/autosomal DNA profiles, Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups. They are being constantly updated
    BTW, there are near 800 samples and all of them are WGS. AFAIK, Yfull team is going to upload all of them


    https://5iqtethmlu466hybm4gxuab2oe-ac5fdsxevxq4s5y-docs-google-com.translate.goog/spreadsheets/d/1pHvOMVZPtNDuwVabSXD7OxdFMTYQGvfjq7Z-L6IiII0/htmlview



    p.s
    that is great as we will have a chance also to see the autosomal profile of the individual and not only
    his y dna and mtdna
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    caught my eye in the spreadsheet link above
    the presence of N-P43 branches ( so it is not only autosomal influence of the turkish tribes but also influence in y haplogroup)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-P43/


    p.s
    for people here
    the SRS id in most of samples in yfull are those from the Koç University research who were uploaded to yfull

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    Is this study about modern samples? Do they have ancient samples as well or?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Is this study about modern samples? Do they have ancient samples as well or?
    Unfortunately no ancients
    Only modern samples
    They are all close to 800 diagnosed with Als disease
    who were WGS by the turkish university

    P.s
    As supreeme mention in the j-L70 thread
    They are a mix bag by there autosomal profile some are antolian turks, some are balkan turks, some are kurds , armenian, alawites

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    caught my eye in the spreadsheet link above
    the presence of N-P43 branches ( so it is not only autosomal influence of the turkish tribes but also influence in y haplogroup)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-P43/


    p.s
    for people here
    the SRS id in most of samples in yfull are those from the Koç University research who were uploaded to yfull
    Yes i ve noticed the Samples appearing in mass on Y-full.
    But if that's the Totality of the N lineages they have, then it is still very small % compared to the total and in line with previous studies.
    Around 20/800, 2-3%. In fact it's less than what the previous studies gave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Yes i ve noticed the Samples appearing in mass on Y-full.
    But if that's the Totality of the N lineages they have, then it is still very small % compared to the total and in line with previous studies.
    Around 20/800, 2-3%. In fact it's less than what the previous studies gave.
    Back in the day
    Chinengolu 2004 paper found 3.8% N
    out of 523 males...
    Now in this research
    I don't think leper from anthrogenica uploaded all the male samples to yfull yet....
    So we cant say there are only 20/800
    As we dont know how much of those 800
    Are males and how much are females
    P.s
    Either way it with no doubt one of the turkish signitures
    Maybe also some beanches of Q
    Last edited by kingjohn; 16-06-21 at 17:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Yes i ve noticed the Samples appearing in mass on Y-full.
    But if that's the Totality of the N lineages they have, then it is still very small % compared to the total and in line with previous studies.
    Around 20/800, 2-3%. In fact it's less than what the previous studies gave.
    Many of the other haplotypes are quite dispersed and don't respresent any sort of big pulse migration associated with incoming Turks, but some N subclades have a TMRCA in Antiquity and being very clearly associated with early Turkic and later Turkish expansions. Also, among Anatolian Turkish proper the relative proportion is way higher than in the total sample.

    The ethnicity estimates are very important, because a large portion of the samples comes not from actual Anatolian Turks. Like the E-V13 can be grouped in Balkan/European/Slavic origin, Balkan Turkish and Kurdish. Among Turks proper it seems to be very rare. Just one fairly basal, lonely sample:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/

    I feel somewhat strange about the fact that a large portion of the tested suffer from ALS probably? Feels sad.

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    How do you explain the presence
    Of e-v13 in 2 kurdish individuals in the spreadsheet?
    Is it possible some branch of e-v13 is more indo-iranian than a back migration from balkan to asia minor ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    How do you explain the presence
    Of e-v13 in 2 kurdish individuals in the spreadsheet?
    Is it possible some branch of e-v13 is more indo-iranian than a back migration from balkan to asia minor ?
    There is a connection between Daco-Thracians and Iranians, beginning with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the Scythians. Through this connection, some E-V13 seem to have travelled, fairly early on, on the steppe. Some made it to China, like we had a Chinese tester recently, there was another one on YFull, which was deleted. Both from provinces with higher Iranian-related ancestry and R1a, either directly from Iranians, or through later Turkic people. My best guess is that this explains the majority of Caucasian and Kurdish E-V13, while Greek transmitted is a minority. The low frequency in Turkish Anatolia supports this scenario as well.

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    Sound logical
    Here this research:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_229427983
    found 5.1% e-v13 among kurds from iran

    P.s
    Also if i am not wrong recent paper
    With ancient dna samples from scythians
    Found 1 e-v13 individual in south kazakhstan

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Sound logical
    Here this research:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_229427983
    found 5.1% e-v13 among kurds from iran
    P.s
    Also if i am not wrong recent paper
    With ancient dna samples from scythians
    Found 1 e-v13 individual in south kazakhstan
    Even among Iranians Zoroastrians have more than the average, which speaks for itself. However, the only number I can't explain easily is that of the Assyrians. If its no recent founder effect or sampling bias, its quite strange. They are the smallest sample though (N = 9!), so this might be a sheer randomness.

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    The D member in the spreadsheet
    Is interesting he sit on this branch:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/D-Y14813/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Sound logical
    Here this research:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_229427983
    found 5.1% e-v13 among kurds from iran

    P.s
    Also if i am not wrong recent paper
    With ancient dna samples from scythians
    Found 1 e-v13 individual in south kazakhstan
    If it came from the Balkans in the last 3 000 years, i can see few possibilities:
    1)the Cimmerian Invasion
    2)Via Galatians
    3)Greecoroman settlement and gradual drifting
    4)The Slavic resettlement from Greece to Asia Minor during the Byzantine era
    5)Janissary or Slave soldier corps stationed on the Borders with the Persian Empire recruited(naturally) from the Balkans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Many of the other haplotypes are quite dispersed and don't respresent any sort of big pulse migration associated with incoming Turks, but some N subclades have a TMRCA in Antiquity and being very clearly associated with early Turkic and later Turkish expansions. Also, among Anatolian Turkish proper the relative proportion is way higher than in the total sample.

    The ethnicity estimates are very important, because a large portion of the samples comes not from actual Anatolian Turks. Like the E-V13 can be grouped in Balkan/European/Slavic origin, Balkan Turkish and Kurdish. Among Turks proper it seems to be very rare. Just one fairly basal, lonely sample:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/

    I feel somewhat strange about the fact that a large portion of the tested suffer from ALS probably? Feels sad.
    True there should be a breakdown by ethnicity for more clarity.
    Some N could have come from other sources too. Some via the Mongols.
    If we believe the legends hundreds of thousands of Crimean resettled in Anatolia at a time that its population was few millions.
    Similar event occurred little later with Dobruja Tatars, and of course there were the migrations of Caucasian Turks towards turkey during the Russian-Turkish and Russian-Persian wars. Crimean and Dobrujan tatars had high rates of N lineages, which makes them the only candidates that could have elevated the N frequency in Turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Many of the other haplotypes are quite dispersed and don't respresent any sort of big pulse migration associated with incoming Turks, but some N subclades have a TMRCA in Antiquity and being very clearly associated with early Turkic and later Turkish expansions. Also, among Anatolian Turkish proper the relative proportion is way higher than in the total sample.
    The ethnicity estimates are very important, because a large portion of the samples comes not from actual Anatolian Turks. Like the E-V13 can be grouped in Balkan/European/Slavic origin, Balkan Turkish and Kurdish. Among Turks proper it seems to be very rare. Just one fairly basal, lonely sample:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988/
    I feel somewhat strange about the fact that a large portion of the tested suffer from ALS probably? Feels sad.
    There is plenty of common balkan y dna in turkey and also further into middle east. This isnt just through ottoman era but also from before as balkan people inhabitated turkey (especially greeks) during byzantine and werent completely replaced. Before that there were plenty of wars and exchange of land in that region including greek/alexander the great conquests

    I also believe a lot of balkan people came through anatolia into balkans during bronze age so of course there would be remnants still in the area

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    interesting that only 12 X T ydna are on the spreadsheet ( 10 x T1a1 branch and 2 x T1a2 branch )

    I wonder if there was any Kurds or armenians tested within Turkey


    TR-E1 T1a2 - Hv12a1

    TR-N1 T1a2 - K1b1c
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    interesting that only 12 X T ydna are on the spreadsheet ( 10 x T1a1 branch and 2 x T1a2 branch )
    I wonder if there was any Kurds or armenians tested within Turkey
    TR-E1 T1a2 - Hv12a1
    TR-N1 T1a2 - K1b1c
    It is possible some of them are kurds or armenians
    Who were part of there 440 male samples...
    The samples are made of poor Als disease
    People...
    All across turkey ....
    You can see from the spreadsheet i posted
    In the my first post:

    https://5iqtethmlu466hybm4gxuab2oe-a...IiII0/htmlview

    ....( from anthrogenica user
    Who uploaded many of them to gedmatch)
    That autosomally some of them are kurds , armenians. Alwites, turks of balkan background,
    Or turks of heritage from mixed regions

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    TR-N is Northern Anatolia/Pontic region and there are in this region alone 3 E-V13:
    TR-N85 Male H1c13 E1b1b1a1b1a6~
    TR-N86 Male HV1a1 E1b1b1a1b1a
    TR-N87 Male HV1b3b E1b1b1a1b1a

    Isn't that based on the 2019-2020 ISOGG-tree?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=149564181

    TR-N85 = E1b1b1a1b1a6~
    = https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z5016/
    = https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y90461/ ?

    Another E-Z5016 from West Anatolia:

    TR-W50 Male V7a E1b1b1a1b1a6a1~
    TR-W51 Male H2a5b E1b1b1a1b1a
    TR-W52 Male H6a1a2a E1b1b1a1b1a

    TR-W50 = https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z16988*/

    E-Z5016 and so far unknown subclades of V13 seem to be common in Western and Northern Anatolia, former Greek territories.

    On the other hand, there is also a Kurdish V13 group in the East:

    TR-E105?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC94882*/

    Would fit with a related clade from Iraq. They didn't migrate alone - from the steppe with Iranians?


    How can we identify the sample from the study on YFull, has YFull made a list of the uploaded sample identities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    It is possible some of them are kurds or armenians
    Who were part of there 440 male samples...
    The samples are made of poor Als disease
    People...
    All across turkey ....
    You can see from the spreadsheet i posted
    In the my first post:
    https://5iqtethmlu466hybm4gxuab2oe-a...IiII0/htmlview
    ....( from anthrogenica user
    Who uploaded many of them to gedmatch)
    That autosomally some of them are kurds , armenians. Alwites, turks of balkan background,
    Or turks of heritage from mixed regions
    of the 2 x T1a2 of my branch...............one is snp p322 which I am negative for ..........he is noted as black sea greek

    other
    is linked with viking sample VK398

    I was surprised there was so little of the T ydna when a paper a few years ago had 20% of T in eastern Turkey

    i was comparing to this older paper
    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-014-0015-6

    where further notes indicated a union with ancient Urartu kingdom and their Alarodian languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alarodian_languages

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    of the 2 x T1a2 of my branch...............one is snp p322 which I am negative for ..........he is noted as black sea greek

    other
    is linked with viking sample VK398

    I was surprised there was so little of the T ydna when a paper a few years ago had 20% of T in eastern Turkey

    i was comparing to this older paper
    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-014-0015-6

    where further notes indicated a union with ancient Urartu kingdom and their Alarodian languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alarodian_languages
    … maybe I misunderstood, but out of the 800 samples only two are y T1a2 …
    and you test negative to the SNPs (as I would) therefore our y line cannot be closely related to any of the two T1a2 of the study. I Think.
    Last edited by Salento; 25-08-21 at 04:19.
    🕷️

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    of the 2 x T1a2 of my branch...............one is snp p322 which I am negative for ..........he is noted as black sea greek

    other
    is linked with viking sample VK398

    I was surprised there was so little of the T ydna when a paper a few years ago had 20% of T in eastern Turkey

    i was comparing to this older paper
    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-014-0015-6

    where further notes indicated a union with ancient Urartu kingdom and their Alarodian languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alarodian_languages

    interesting paper i wasn't aware of
    thanks for sharing

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    … maybe I misunderstood, but out of the 800 samples only two are y T1a2 …
    and you test negative to the SNPs (as I would) therefore our y line cannot be closely related to any of the two T1a2 of the study. I Think.

    I am saying that there are only 2 samples of the T1a2 branch

    of the 2

    I am negative for one sample who is a greek on the black sea who has snp P322 .............we are negative for this ............we do not match

    the other sample

    belongs with the viking sample branch , VK398 ..............I did not check where I am negative for his line..............we are linked with the viking until Z19890 then we split and go down the CTS3767 line

    so, you are correct

    the other 10 samples of T , all belong to the T1a1 branch

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    Yfull will most likely link me with the viking as they link me with CTS1848 which I am negative for ...................Yfull seem to start the link with CTS933 for me

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-CTS933/

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    fdfvrfbgvr.jpg
    A hasty pie chart of the haplogroups i ve made.
    Last edited by Parapolitikos; 26-08-21 at 18:58.

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