The genetic structure of the Turkish population

I remember to have posted something about it, and found the thread.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...N-Levant-S-Caucasus/page4?p=604900#post604900
Following two other related posts: here and here.

As Maciamo pointed out on Eupedia's G2a page, G-M406 (ED) was not found in Neolithic Euro so far, which would be in agreement with a possible later dispersal from around South Caucasus in BA, reaching Europe (and other parts of Middle East).

Thanks a lot Regio. Interesting.

But if it was BA expansion into Europe. And it was somehow Caucasus related, it could not have been IE right? Steppe type of expansion for M406?
There is a couple of Eneolithic M406 from around Western Anatolia... The problem is among two dozen G2a1's, only a few are tested deep enough, even in papers as new as 2018-19...
So I am wondering could it have been part of the Initial wave of IE? The first IE languages, aka the Anatolian branches?
Or was is some Caucasus to Anatolia migration not related to IE.

Thanks again (y)
 
in the supplemental of this paper
https://www.pnas.org/content/118/36/e2026076118/tab-figures-data

i counted :

3- e-v22
14-e-v13
21-e-m34
:unsure:
I ve always found it very perplexing the little E-V13 in Turkey.Taking in mind how extensive was the Greek colonization, and it was extensive, one would expect it to be more plenty full. Which can only mean that E-v13 arrived late in the lower half of the Greek state, probably with Dorians, after the bulk of the Greek colonization/migrations were completed and the fleeing Achaens/Ionians didnt have much E-v13 to begin with. Some Anatolian colonies go back in the early 1st millenia BC.
 
I ve always found it very perplexing the little E-V13 in Turkey.Taking in mind how extensive was the Greek colonization, and it was extensive, one would expect it to be more plenty full. Which can only mean that E-v13 arrived late in the lower half of the Greek state, probably with Dorians, after the bulk of the Greek colonization/migrations were completed and the fleeing Achaens/Ionians didnt have much E-v13 to begin with. Some Anatolian colonies go back in the early 1st millenia BC.

Yes,
Although not high
it fit like a glove to the areas
Of greek colonies
West, north, :)
And don't forget cyprus 10-13% e-v13
So some ancient greeks sailed
To cyprus
I am no expert on this
Probably you know which greek group
Colonised cyprus maybe myceneans:unsure:


p.s
side note
this horror could have reduced the number of e-v13 :sad-2:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
 
^^Wow, lots and lots of "E" and "G", and a much smaller amount of "C".

No J2a, which is surprising.

MtDna has a bit of Central Asian, but vast majority is not.

My husband is G2a, and the source may be here. I wish he'd get deeper subclade tested.

You seem to follow the yDna closely. If you have time perhaps you might give us who don't a quick overview of the type of E and G2a we're looking at, and "I" for that matter.

Hmm, what do you mean by no J2a, change the page number, there is a lot of J2a and R1b-Z2103 as well.
 
Hmm, what do you mean by no J2a, change the page number, there is a lot of J2a and R1b-Z2103 as well.

No need to get excited. I was responding to the data provided by King John.

I'd be very interested to see the remaining y lines. Perhaps you can provide them.
 
No need to get excited. I was responding to the data provided by King John.

I'd be very interested to see the remaining y lines. Perhaps you can provide them.

No, i am not, was just wondering whether we are looking at the same data: https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/540/?page=2

From page 2 onwards we have J1, J2, and Q, R which probably is mostly R1b-M269 (Z2103?).

I think the paper reflects previous studies. Anatolia is a melting pot.
 
No, i am not, was just wondering whether we are looking at the same data: https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/540/?page=2

From page 2 onwards we have J1, J2, and Q, R which probably is mostly R1b-M269 (Z2103?).

I think the paper reflects previous studies. Anatolia is a melting pot.

Thanks for the additional samples.

Yes, it certainly is, and I think it's reflected in their appearance.

There's also real differences among Turks in terms of how "westernized" they are culturally. Right now, the much more traditional block is in control of course.

I wonder what Ataturk would think of it all.
 
Thanks a lot Regio. Interesting.

But if it was BA expansion into Europe. And it was somehow Caucasus related, it could not have been IE right? Steppe type of expansion for M406?
There is a couple of Eneolithic M406 from around Western Anatolia... The problem is among two dozen G2a1's, only a few are tested deep enough, even in papers as new as 2018-19...
So I am wondering could it have been part of the Initial wave of IE? The first IE languages, aka the Anatolian branches?
Or was is some Caucasus to Anatolia migration not related to IE.

Thanks again (y)
You're welcome!
Which Chalco Western Anatolian are you referring to? I see four G-M406 from Central Anatolia, three from East Anatolia and one from North Anatolia. All of them about 5500 years old (so the dispersal in BA could have been from Anatolia).

Notice that G-M406 (G2a2b1) and G-Z6552 (G2a1) are different clades.The latter is the predominant G branch in Ossetia, Georgia etc. G-U1 (under G2a2b2) in turn predominates in Circassia/Abkhazia (the related language is from the Northwest Caucasian family, unlike Ossetian), in the form of G-L1266 mainly. Interestingly, the sister clade G-L13 is very spread, despite its youth. It's found even in Xinjyang (https://www.yfull.com/tree/G/).

As for the language issue, well, it's hypothesized that Maykop could be the source of the proto-Anatolian (see Kristiansen - scroll down). Even if true, we still would not know if G-M406 was present in the initial wave to Anatolia. One way or another, being so old in Anatolia, apparently the odds are that the clade was present among speakers of the Hittite language.
All that said, even if proto-IE did originate outside the steppe, and we're not sure (yet), the common ancestor of modern IE languages would have started to spread with Steppe people most likely, as far as I know.
Let's see the next chapters. :)

Erratum: One of my own posts I quoted associated G2a to the spots in Kazakhstan, but I've meant simply G (not G2a). Those spots are from G1 actually.
 
Yes,
Although not high
it fit like a glove to the areas
Of greek colonies
West, north, :)
And don't forget cyprus 10-13% e-v13
So some ancient greeks sailed
To cyprus
I am no expert on this
Probably you know which greek group
Colonised cyprus maybe myceneans:unsure:


p.s
side note
this horror could have reduced the number of e-v13 :sad-2:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

E-v13 may be low in most of Turkey. But consider it is only 20% in Greeks. So if the average in central Anatolia is, say 5%. Then it means that 25% of the population may have Greek ancestry. If E-V13 is 10% at the Aegaen coast of Turkey, then that would indicate half of their ancestry may be Greek. So a 8.9% average could indicate a max. of 45% Greek ancestry. Just saying. We have to think proportionally.
 
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E-v13 may be low in most of Turkey. But consider it is only 20% in Greeks. So if the average in central Anatolia is, say 5%. Then it means that 25% of the population may have Greek ancestry. If E-V13 is 10% at the Aegaen coast of Turkey, then that would indicate half of their ancestry may be Greek. So a 8.9% average could indicate a max. of 45% Greek ancestry. Just saying. We have to think proportionally.

This paper
https://bmcecolevol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-69
Found 19% e-v13 in phocea
And 12% e-v13 in smyrna ( izmir):cool-v:
The samples were taken from people who trace
There paternal line to the anatolian greeks
In west anatolia coast:unsure:


from the paper

To investigate the Y chromosomal demography of Greek colonization in the western Mediterranean, Y-chromosome data consisting of 29 YSNPs and 37 YSTRs were compared from 51 subjects from Provence, 58 subjects from Smyrna and 31 subjects whose paternal ancestry derives from Asia Minor Phokaia,
12862_2010_1674_Fig1_HTML.jpg

12862_2010_1674_Fig2_HTML.jpg


This study presents the first genetic data on those Greeks whose ancestry traces to western Anatolia before the 1923 exchange with Turkey. The two sites: Phokaia and Smyrna have a long established historical record and represent somewhat different Archaic Greek dialects and regions
 
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This is particularly interesting since the Phoceans were important for Sicily and closer related to Dorians than other Anatolian Greeks afaik. Also interesting that even at their estimate, less than 1/5 of the E-V13 in the Provence can be attributed to the Greek colonisation, which would leave a majority coming from other sources, possibly with the Hallstatt culture, Ligurians and Celts.
 
Hmm, what do you mean by no J2a, change the page number, there is a lot of J2a and R1b-Z2103 as well.

The z2103 is mostly armenian

Anyway, looks like turkey has very low v13, j2b l283, i2a p37 and other balkan lines. I would say majority of it is recent from ottoman as they took young males from all over south europe
 
Could you please post the study's page or/and spreadsheet's page the link seems to be broken
 
Could you please post the study's page or/and spreadsheet's page the link seems to be broken


i know
bummer :frown:
i will not post spreadsheets anymore
because we are taking the risk the person who created the spreedsheet
will decide to eraze it one day
 
i know
bummer :frown:
i will not post spreadsheets anymore
because we are taking the risk the person who created the spreedsheet
will decide to eraze it one day
It's a shame indeed . I was to explore the ydna data from the Turkmen/Seldjuk lineage narrative. But if the yfull data are anywhere near representative Turks are completely unrelated to Turkmens. Practically there is no Q-m25 in Turks. The little Q lineages found in Turks are 90% not Q-m25. Cinnioglu also reported similar rwsults, plus he reported Q-m25 (the little that it is found it's found in the regiona of the Kurds and Central Anatolia.

Either way am sure someone downloaded the spreadsheet and should post it here and in other forums.
 
It's a shame indeed . I was to explore the ydna data from the Turkmen/Seldjuk lineage narrative. But if the yfull data are anywhere near representative Turks are completely unrelated to Turkmens. Practically there is no Q-m25 in Turks. The little Q lineages found in Turks are 90% not Q-m25. Cinnioglu also reported similar rwsults, plus he reported Q-m25 (the little that it is found it's found in the regiona of the Kurds and Central Anatolia.
Either way am sure someone downloaded the spreadsheet and should post it here and in other forums.


it work again

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...XD7OxdFMTYQGvfjq7Z-L6IiII0/edit#gid=450884960


p.s
if i were you i would do print screen of this spreedsheet till next time the
man who created it will decide to break the link again
 
You should be looking for "N". Plus, they were already admixed when they arrived.
 

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