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Thread: Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We have a Greek trader of the Roman period whose remains are pretty similar to Mycenaeans. There's no way of knowing if he came from the mainland or the islands, and anyway, one sample is not enough.

    We need to wait for more data.
    I'm aware of the existence of this sample it is just i can't wait for upcoming samples from southeast Europe which are rumored to be heterogenous, some having more steppe and others are going to be anatolian like we just have to wait I guess

  2. #127
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    I'll comment tomorrow.

    @ Aspurg

    Redefining Pre-Indo-European Language Families of Bronze Age Western Europe: A Study Based on the Synthesis of Scientific Evidence From Archaeology, Historical Linguistics and Genetics

    https://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/12398

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.19.256412v1
    A Hungarian study. Female but she closely clusters autosomally with earlier Hungarian "Scythians", at whose two sites Gava urns were found (and I found that in some Hungarian archeological sources). So Hungarian Scythians were direct descendants of the Gava culture people as I have predicted some months before this new study. One Hungarian Scythian was R-YP340. Ottomany culture sample from the study is R-Z280. Gava developed on the Ottomany basis in good part.



    Upcoming Bulgarian study shows two samples of Pšeničevo culture are E-V13. 15 year old sample of the same culture shows the same. Pšeničevo is ultimately derived of Girla Mare/Dubovac. This culture is considered by the archeologists to have been non-IE. Having 3 out of 3 finds from two sites belong to the same hg shows its strong relation to it.

    Pšeničevo was Thracian ofc but in the previous stage it is known Gava people merged with Girla Mare people.



    Material cultures can be and are in great many cases directly associated with different linguistic and genetic makeup. Otherwise Yamnaya or the EEF's would not have been so uniform...

    I am talking of proto-Villanovan culture. Proto-Villanovan urns were very similar to Gava urns..



    Per some old sources Raetic speakers were migrants from the South. Also remember that in the Balkans existed the Lemnian language. I know some of your have dismissed them as Etruscan traders but in the light of new finds connecting the E-V13 demographic expansion with Girla Mare, the fact that E-V13 is a Neolithic hg stemming from Western Balkans, as well as the nature of Girla Mare cultures, such views must be taken with great reserve.

    I do not want this discussion to descend into petty nationalism where some members of modern day X, Y, Z ethnicities consider certain old cultures as part of their own identity and that therefore they must originate within the territory of the X, Y, Z ethnicity, as ofc its modern descendants are legitimate heirs and for some culture to have originated elsewhere is an affront to the "modern national unity and cohesion".. It cannot be an affront, there are no modern Etruscans speakers anymore and only Etruscan speakers would have a right to bring such an argument to the table.

    The last time I talked about this it did have such undertones..
    Transmission of the alphabet to and within Italy

    https://www.univie.ac.at/raetica/wiki/Script
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I'll comment tomorrow.

    @ Aspurg

    Redefining Pre-Indo-European Language Families of Bronze Age Western Europe: A Study Based on the Synthesis of Scientific Evidence From Archaeology, Historical Linguistics and Genetics

    https://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/12398
    This paper seems very contradicting. Like linking E-V13 with Proto-Celtic, Tumulus Culture and Urnfield with Tyrsenian languages.

  5. #130
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I'll comment tomorrow.

    @ Aspurg

    Redefining Pre-Indo-European Language Families of Bronze Age Western Europe: A Study Based on the Synthesis of Scientific Evidence From Archaeology, Historical Linguistics and Genetics

    https://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/12398
    I havn't read completely; seems to me a bit aventurous.

  6. #131
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This paper seems very contradicting. Like linking E-V13 with Proto-Celtic, Tumulus Culture and Urnfield with Tyrsenian languages.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I havn't read completely; seems to me a bit aventurous.
    Of course, I agree with you, it's very very adventurous and contradicting.

    I posted this not because I believe the conclusions are accurate, but because it is an excellent example of what kind of very far-fetched conclusions can arise when trying to match historical, archaeological, and genetic data at all costs.

  7. #132
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ENA uploaded the mtdna : ( lest hope for y dna soon )
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...866?show=reads

    a user in anthrogenica teepean47 anlaysed the bam files
    and here are
    the ancient mtdna types:


    CAM001 (A73G! 89.8% -0 +5): H3-a
    CAM002 (G14364A 94.0% -0 +3): H18
    CAM003 (C16261T 95.3% -0 +3): J2a1a1
    CSN001 (G3010A 92.0% -0 +4): H1
    CSN002 (T7028C 91.8% -0 +4): H
    CSN003 (C146T 88.7% -0 +6): H1n-c
    CSN004 (T226C 98.0% -0 +1): X2b-a
    CSN005 (C194T 96.2% -0 +2): H2a1r
    CSN006 (A188G 93.2% -0 +4): J1c2
    CSN007 (T16189C! 86.5% -0 +7): H3-c
    CSN008 (A16265G 88.7% -0 +6): H7c1
    CSN009 (T7028C 89.8% -0 +5): H
    CSN010 (T195C! 82.0% -0 +9): HV0-a
    CSN012 (T961C 82.5% -2 +4): U4a1a
    CSN013 (C14365T 87.7% -0 +7): H4a1
    ETR001 (T16325C 91.0% -0 +6): T1a8a
    ETR003 (T195C! 84.8% -0 +7): HV0-a
    ETR004 (T16311C! 93.6% -0 +3): HV-b
    ETR005 (T16298C 89.6% -0 +5): HV0
    ETR006 (T7028C 89.8% -0 +5): H
    ETR007 (A11821G 88.9% -0 +7): J1c15c
    ETR010 (T16304C 90.4% -0 +5): H5
    ETR012 (C12061T 96.1% -0 +2): HV2a
    ETR013 (C14653T 90.0% -0 +6): J1c18
    ETR014 (T292C 86.5% -0 +7): H130
    ETR015 (G2706A 93.9% -0 +3): HV-a1a
    ETR016 (G14323A 82.5% -1 +8): R2b
    MAG001 (A1888G! 98.4% -0 +1): T2b14a
    MAS001 (T16172C 95.2% -0 +3): T2h2
    MAS002 (A249G 86.8% -1 +4): H74a
    MAS003 (G13759A 96.6% -0 +2): K1b2a1
    MAS004 (T15940C 68.9% -2 +13): R1b
    POP001 (C14365T 90.7% -0 +5): H4a1
    PRZ001 (G9196A 91.7% -0 +5): U5b3b
    PRZ002 (C16320A 87.0% -0 +7): H1cu
    TAQ001 (T16296C! 87.5% -1 +5): T2e3a
    TAQ002 (T7028C 90.0% -0 +5): H
    TAQ003 (C64T 91.2% -0 +5): X2n1
    TAQ004 (T152C! 90.0% -0 +5): H3-b
    TAQ005 (A14605G 90.8% -1 +3): T2d2a
    TAQ006 (A16038G 93.8% -0 +3): HV22
    TAQ007 (G16129A! 84.9% -0 +8): H-c
    TAQ008 (T195C! 86.3% -0 +7): HV0-a
    TAQ009 (A9254G 92.1% -0 +5): T1b2
    TAQ010 (T13326C 89.3% -0 +6): H13a1a1
    TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a
    TAQ012 (G3010A 88.0% -0 +6): H1
    TAQ013 (T6719C 92.7% -0 +4): U5a1a2a
    TAQ015 (C15175T 94.3% -0 +3): H5a7
    TAQ016 (A16240G 89.1% -0 +6): H1bz
    TAQ017 (T16296C! 86.4% -1 +6): T2e3a
    TAQ018 (T16325C 98.1% -0 +1): W6
    TAQ019 (C13934T 93.2% -0 +4): J1c3
    TAQ020 (C14149T 90.6% -0 +5): H44a
    TAQ021 (T11776C 75.5% -0 +12): X1e
    TAQ022 (T152C! 97.8% -0 +1): H3-b
    TAQ023 (T10031C 88.1% -1 +4): U5b2a3
    TAQ024 (T16296C! 89.1% -1 +4): T2e3a
    UDC_P (T195C! 95.8% -0 +2): HV0-a
    VEN001 (A11128G 87.9% -0 +7): N3a
    VEN002 (A14274G 78.8% -1 +11): U5a1c3a
    VEN005 (T16311C! 85.2% -0 +8): HV0-a4
    VEN006 (A8701G! 85.9% -1 +6): T1a26a
    VEN008 (C16278T! 80.8% -1 +7): H1-b
    VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a
    VEN010 (T16325C 82.5% -1 +8): W6
    VEN012 (C13934T 87.3% -0 +8): J1c3
    VEN013 (T16352C 80.6% -0 +12): H14a
    VEN014 (T7028C 83.3% -0 +9): H
    VEN015 (A10049G 88.5% -0 +6): H1cr
    VEN016 (T6227C 84.1% -0 +10): I1b
    VEN017 (C3342T 90.0% -0 +5): H35
    VEN018 (A7517G 85.9% -0 +9): H5a1g1a
    VEN021 (C3750T 80.6% -1 +10): U5a2d1-a
    VEN022 (C16261T 67.6% -0 +22): H7a1
    VET001 (T152C! 83.0% -0 +9): H3-b
    VET002 (T8614C 96.6% -0 +2): J1c3s2
    VET003 (C6887T 88.1% -0 +7): J1c9
    VET004 (C6887T 88.5% -0 +7): J1c9
    VET005 (T16311C! 83.0% -0 +9): HV-b
    VET006 (C13934T 88.5% -0 +7): J1c3
    VET007 (T16304C 88.1% -0 +8): T2b
    VET008 (T7028C 91.7% -0 +4): H
    VET009 (C13934T 91.7% -0 +5): J1c3
    VET010 (G15466A 88.6% -0 +5): H58
    VET011 (T16172C 95.3% -0 +3): J1b1a1
    VEU001 (A13395G 94.0% -0 +3): V46
    VOL001 (C13680T 94.1% -0 +3): H13a1a




    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    ENA uploaded the mtdna : ( lest hope for y dna soon )
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...866?show=reads

    a user in anthrogenica teepean47 anlaysed the bam files
    and here are
    the ancient mtdna types:


    CAM001 (A73G! 89.8% -0 +5): H3-a
    CAM002 (G14364A 94.0% -0 +3): H18
    CAM003 (C16261T 95.3% -0 +3): J2a1a1
    CSN001 (G3010A 92.0% -0 +4): H1
    CSN002 (T7028C 91.8% -0 +4): H
    CSN003 (C146T 88.7% -0 +6): H1n-c
    CSN004 (T226C 98.0% -0 +1): X2b-a
    CSN005 (C194T 96.2% -0 +2): H2a1r
    CSN006 (A188G 93.2% -0 +4): J1c2
    CSN007 (T16189C! 86.5% -0 +7): H3-c
    CSN008 (A16265G 88.7% -0 +6): H7c1
    CSN009 (T7028C 89.8% -0 +5): H
    CSN010 (T195C! 82.0% -0 +9): HV0-a
    CSN012 (T961C 82.5% -2 +4): U4a1a
    CSN013 (C14365T 87.7% -0 +7): H4a1
    ETR001 (T16325C 91.0% -0 +6): T1a8a
    ETR003 (T195C! 84.8% -0 +7): HV0-a
    ETR004 (T16311C! 93.6% -0 +3): HV-b
    ETR005 (T16298C 89.6% -0 +5): HV0
    ETR006 (T7028C 89.8% -0 +5): H
    ETR007 (A11821G 88.9% -0 +7): J1c15c
    ETR010 (T16304C 90.4% -0 +5): H5
    ETR012 (C12061T 96.1% -0 +2): HV2a
    ETR013 (C14653T 90.0% -0 +6): J1c18
    ETR014 (T292C 86.5% -0 +7): H130
    ETR015 (G2706A 93.9% -0 +3): HV-a1a
    ETR016 (G14323A 82.5% -1 +8): R2b
    MAG001 (A1888G! 98.4% -0 +1): T2b14a
    MAS001 (T16172C 95.2% -0 +3): T2h2
    MAS002 (A249G 86.8% -1 +4): H74a
    MAS003 (G13759A 96.6% -0 +2): K1b2a1
    MAS004 (T15940C 68.9% -2 +13): R1b
    POP001 (C14365T 90.7% -0 +5): H4a1
    PRZ001 (G9196A 91.7% -0 +5): U5b3b
    PRZ002 (C16320A 87.0% -0 +7): H1cu
    TAQ001 (T16296C! 87.5% -1 +5): T2e3a
    TAQ002 (T7028C 90.0% -0 +5): H
    TAQ003 (C64T 91.2% -0 +5): X2n1
    TAQ004 (T152C! 90.0% -0 +5): H3-b
    TAQ005 (A14605G 90.8% -1 +3): T2d2a
    TAQ006 (A16038G 93.8% -0 +3): HV22
    TAQ007 (G16129A! 84.9% -0 +8): H-c
    TAQ008 (T195C! 86.3% -0 +7): HV0-a
    TAQ009 (A9254G 92.1% -0 +5): T1b2
    TAQ010 (T13326C 89.3% -0 +6): H13a1a1
    TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a
    TAQ012 (G3010A 88.0% -0 +6): H1
    TAQ013 (T6719C 92.7% -0 +4): U5a1a2a
    TAQ015 (C15175T 94.3% -0 +3): H5a7
    TAQ016 (A16240G 89.1% -0 +6): H1bz
    TAQ017 (T16296C! 86.4% -1 +6): T2e3a
    TAQ018 (T16325C 98.1% -0 +1): W6
    TAQ019 (C13934T 93.2% -0 +4): J1c3
    TAQ020 (C14149T 90.6% -0 +5): H44a
    TAQ021 (T11776C 75.5% -0 +12): X1e
    TAQ022 (T152C! 97.8% -0 +1): H3-b
    TAQ023 (T10031C 88.1% -1 +4): U5b2a3
    TAQ024 (T16296C! 89.1% -1 +4): T2e3a
    UDC_P (T195C! 95.8% -0 +2): HV0-a
    VEN001 (A11128G 87.9% -0 +7): N3a
    VEN002 (A14274G 78.8% -1 +11): U5a1c3a
    VEN005 (T16311C! 85.2% -0 +8): HV0-a4
    VEN006 (A8701G! 85.9% -1 +6): T1a26a
    VEN008 (C16278T! 80.8% -1 +7): H1-b
    VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a
    VEN010 (T16325C 82.5% -1 +8): W6
    VEN012 (C13934T 87.3% -0 +8): J1c3
    VEN013 (T16352C 80.6% -0 +12): H14a
    VEN014 (T7028C 83.3% -0 +9): H
    VEN015 (A10049G 88.5% -0 +6): H1cr
    VEN016 (T6227C 84.1% -0 +10): I1b
    VEN017 (C3342T 90.0% -0 +5): H35
    VEN018 (A7517G 85.9% -0 +9): H5a1g1a
    VEN021 (C3750T 80.6% -1 +10): U5a2d1-a
    VEN022 (C16261T 67.6% -0 +22): H7a1
    VET001 (T152C! 83.0% -0 +9): H3-b
    VET002 (T8614C 96.6% -0 +2): J1c3s2
    VET003 (C6887T 88.1% -0 +7): J1c9
    VET004 (C6887T 88.5% -0 +7): J1c9
    VET005 (T16311C! 83.0% -0 +9): HV-b
    VET006 (C13934T 88.5% -0 +7): J1c3
    VET007 (T16304C 88.1% -0 +8): T2b
    VET008 (T7028C 91.7% -0 +4): H
    VET009 (C13934T 91.7% -0 +5): J1c3
    VET010 (G15466A 88.6% -0 +5): H58
    VET011 (T16172C 95.3% -0 +3): J1b1a1
    VEU001 (A13395G 94.0% -0 +3): V46
    VOL001 (C13680T 94.1% -0 +3): H13a1a








    Thanks, kingjohn. But what about the yDNA? When it comes to the Etruscans, the revelation of the yDNA is much more interesting. Plus, if I remember correctly there was a rumor about an upcoming Etruscan paper where some Etruscans having unexpected R1b and I1 hp. If we had the yDNA from this Etruscan study, we'd know whether the rumor was true or not. Anway, we‘re furthermore kept on tenterhooks.

  9. #134
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Thanks, kingjohn. But what about the yDNA? When it comes to the Etruscans, the revelation of the yDNA is much more interesting. Plus, if I remember correctly there was a rumor about an upcoming Etruscan paper where some Etruscans having unexpected R1b and I1 hp. If we had the yDNA from this Etruscan study, we'd know whether the rumor was true or not. Anway, we‘re furthermore kept on tenterhooks.
    like you i hope for y dna results
    since remains are supposed to be from the period of 800bc -1000 ad maybe some e-m123 will
    turn in the later period who knows
    i think there ( etruscans) major haplogroup would be r1b-u152
    most of the etruscans are a continue of villanovan culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture

  10. #135
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    like you i hope for y dna results
    since remains are supposed to be from the period of 800bc -1000 ad maybe some e-m123 will
    turn in the later period who knows
    i think there ( etruscans) major haplogroup would be r1b-u152
    most of the etruscans are a continue of villanovan culture

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture
    Yes, but assimilating the R1b-U152. I will be surprised if the Proto-Etruscans real Etruscans will be R1b-U152. Logic indicates that if they were non IE people then the people who spread the language must have carried non IE Y-DNA as well. Be it EEF, CHG or WHG. Let's see.

  11. #136
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    Ah man, I was hoping for autosomal BAM files. Thanks for the link update anyway!

  12. #137
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yes, but assimilating the R1b-U152. I will be surprised if the Proto-Etruscans real Etruscans will be R1b-U152. Logic indicates that if they were non IE people then the people who spread the language must have carried non IE Y-DNA as well. Be it EEF, CHG or WHG. Let's see.
    Indo-European men adopted the Basque language, so why not Etruscan men?

    I don't understand why R1b would be unexpected necessarily , given the yDna in Toscana today.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  13. #138
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    I am sick and tired of researchers blue balling us. I would rather have the Daunian paper scenario, no rumors, then bam preprint. Than this... Where we are given crumbs and made to suffer.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I am sick and tired of researchers blue balling us. I would rather have the Daunian paper scenario, no rumors, then bam preprint. Than this... Where we are given crumbs and made to suffer.

    I feel you bro.

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