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Thread: Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

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    Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

    I'm posting the ENA abstract from the current study:The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect.


    The origin, development and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria has been the subject of scholarly debate for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE – 1,000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.


    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866

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    Hmm, only abstract?

    Would be nice to see Y-DNA, autosomal, mtDNA of Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'm posting the ENA abstract from the current study:The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect.




    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
    82 samples this looks very promising.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Proto-Tyrrhenians could have been atleast partially descended from Gava-Holigrady Culture and might have come from East-Alps/Western-Carpathians in the Late Bronze Age. Villanovans were part of Urnfield cultural complex.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Proto-Tyrrhenians could have been atleast partially descended from Gava-Holigrady Culture and might have come from East-Alps/Western-Carpathians in the Late Bronze Age. Villanovans were part of Urnfield cultural complex.
    Villanova urns were likely of Gava origin but Gava people were R1a and very Northern autosomaly unlike all V13 finds. E-V13 is totally related to Girla-Mare culture which was non-IE speaking and it may well be this culture held the proto-Etruscan language. Or that simply put Lemnian language was just a survivor of what used to be formerly much more widespread language (instead of them being some recent migrants as some have suggested).

    We know all Thracians were E-V13 as the Girla Mare merged with Gava elements to form the entire range of proto-Thracian cultures.
    There are clear implicit suggestions E-V13 might have relation to Etruscans:
    1. Pšeničevo - all 3 finds are E-V13
    2. Pšeničevo derived of Insula Banului
    3. Insula Banului = Girla Mare + Gava
    4. Gava were R1a so that leaves Girla Mare for E-V13
    5. Girla-Mare was non-IE speaking
    6. Villanovan urns very close to Gava urns.
    7. The only Etruscan Y-DNA J-L283 find is of certain MBA Balkan origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Villanova urns were likely of Gava origin but Gava people were R1a and very Northern autosomaly unlike all V13 finds. E-V13 is totally related to Girla-Mare culture which was non-IE speaking and it may well be this culture held the proto-Etruscan language. Or that simply put Lemnian language was just a survivor of what used to be formerly much more widespread language (instead of them being some recent migrants as some have suggested).
    These are complex topics and cannot be simplified in this way. First of all, these are material cultures, not ethnicities. Villanovan culture is an Iron Age culture exclusively Etruscan. It is true that it shows similarities with various cultures of the Urnfield cultures of Central and Eastern Europe. But before the Villanovan culture there is the Bronze Age Proto-Villanovan culture which is almost supranational in Italy.

    Who published the analyses of bone remains from the Gava culture? What studies state that E-V13 is totally related to the Girla-Mare culture which was non-IE speaking?

    There is definitely a relationship in the material culture between the Etruscans of the early Iron Age and some Urnfield cultures between the northern Balkans and the Danubian-Carpathian plain but this relationship is very complex. Including the Proto-Tyrrhenian language in the discourse must explain not only the Etruscan language but also the Raetic language. The Raetic people in the second Iron Age are associated with the Fritzens-Sanzeno culture and before that, between the end of Bronze and the first Iron Age, with the Laugen-Melaun culture.

    In the early Iron Age, Etruria traded with many different areas of central and northern Europe. This map is now 10-15 years old, more discoveries have been made in recent years.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    These are complex topics and cannot be simplified in this way. First of all, these are material cultures, not ethnicities. Villanovan culture is an Iron Age culture exclusively Etruscan. It is true that it shows similarities with various cultures of the Urnfield cultures of Central and Eastern Europe. But before the Villanovan culture there is the Bronze Age Proto-Villanovan culture which is almost supranational in Italy.

    Who published the analyses of bone remains from the Gava culture? What studies state that E-V13 is totally related to the Girla-Mare culture which was non-IE speaking?

    There is definitely a relationship in the material culture between the Etruscans of the early Iron Age and some Urnfield cultures between the northern Balkans and the Danubian-Carpathian plain but this relationship is very complex. Including the Proto-Tyrrhenian language in the discourse must explain not only the Etruscan language but also the Raetic language. The Raetic people in the second Iron Age are associated with the Fritzens-Sanzeno culture and before that, between the end of Bronze and the first Iron Age, with the Laugen-Melaun culture.

    In the early Iron Age, Etruria traded with many different areas of central and northern Europe. This map is now 10-15 years old, more discoveries have been made in recent years.

    A question, when are Italic languages supposed to enter Italian peninsula? Did they enter with Proto-Villanovans (Late Bronze Age), or earlier?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Who published the analyses of bone remains from the Gava culture?
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.19.256412v1
    A Hungarian study. Female but she closely clusters autosomally with earlier Hungarian "Scythians", at whose two sites Gava urns were found (and I found that in some Hungarian archeological sources). So Hungarian Scythians were direct descendants of the Gava culture people as I have predicted some months before this new study. One Hungarian Scythian was R-YP340. Ottomany culture sample from the study is R-Z280. Gava developed on the Ottomany basis in good part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What studies state that E-V13 is totally related to the Girla-Mare culture which was non-IE speaking?
    Upcoming Bulgarian study shows two samples of Pšeničevo culture are E-V13. 15 year old sample of the same culture shows the same. Pšeničevo is ultimately derived of Girla Mare/Dubovac. This culture is considered by the archeologists to have been non-IE. Having 3 out of 3 finds from two sites belong to the same hg shows its strong relation to it.

    Pšeničevo was Thracian ofc but in the previous stage it is known Gava people merged with Girla Mare people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    These are complex topics and cannot be simplified in this way. First of all, these are material cultures, not ethnicities. Villanovan culture is an Iron Age culture exclusively Etruscan. It is true that it shows similarities with various cultures of the Urnfield cultures of Central and Eastern Europe. But before the Villanovan culture there is the Bronze Age Proto-Villanovan culture which is almost supranational in Italy.
    Material cultures can be and are in great many cases directly associated with different linguistic and genetic makeup. Otherwise Yamnaya or the EEF's would not have been so uniform...

    I am talking of proto-Villanovan culture. Proto-Villanovan urns were very similar to Gava urns..

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    There is definitely a relationship in the material culture between the Etruscans of the early Iron Age and some Urnfield cultures between the northern Balkans and the Danubian-Carpathian plain but this relationship is very complex. Including the Proto-Tyrrhenian language in the discourse must explain not only the Etruscan language but also the Raetic language. The Raetic people in the second Iron Age are associated with the Fritzens-Sanzeno culture and before that, between the end of Bronze and the first Iron Age, with the Laugen-Melaun culture.
    Per some old sources Raetic speakers were migrants from the South. Also remember that in the Balkans existed the Lemnian language. I know some of your have dismissed them as Etruscan traders but in the light of new finds connecting the E-V13 demographic expansion with Girla Mare, the fact that E-V13 is a Neolithic hg stemming from Western Balkans, as well as the nature of Girla Mare cultures, such views must be taken with great reserve.

    I do not want this discussion to descend into petty nationalism where some members of modern day X, Y, Z ethnicities consider certain old cultures as part of their own identity and that therefore they must originate within the territory of the X, Y, Z ethnicity, as ofc its modern descendants are legitimate heirs and for some culture to have originated elsewhere is an affront to the "modern national unity and cohesion".. It cannot be an affront, there are no modern Etruscans speakers anymore and only Etruscan speakers would have a right to bring such an argument to the table.

    The last time I talked about this it did have such undertones..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.19.256412v1
    A Hungarian study. Female but she closely clusters autosomally with earlier Hungarian "Scythians", at whose two sites Gava urns were found (and I found that in some Hungarian archeological sources). So Hungarian Scythians were direct descendants of the Gava culture people as I have predicted some months before this new study. One Hungarian Scythian was R-YP340. Ottomany culture sample from the study is R-Z280. Gava developed on the Ottomany basis in good part.



    Upcoming Bulgarian study shows two samples of Pšeničevo culture are E-V13. 15 year old sample of the same culture shows the same. Pšeničevo is ultimately derived of Girla Mare/Dubovac. This culture is considered by the archeologists to have been non-IE. Having 3 out of 3 finds from two sites belong to the same hg shows its strong relation to it.

    Pšeničevo was Thracian ofc but in the previous stage it is known Gava people merged with Girla Mare people.



    Material cultures can be and are in great many cases directly associated with different linguistic and genetic makeup. Otherwise Yamnaya or the EEF's would not have been so uniform...

    I am talking of proto-Villanovan culture. Proto-Villanovan urns were very similar to Gava urns..



    Per some old sources Raetic speakers were migrants from the South. Also remember that in the Balkans existed the Lemnian language. I know some of your have dismissed them as Etruscan traders but in the light of new finds connecting the E-V13 demographic expansion with Girla Mare, the fact that E-V13 is a Neolithic hg stemming from Western Balkans, as well as the nature of Girla Mare cultures, such views must be taken with great reserve.

    I do not want this discussion to descend into petty nationalism where some members of modern day X, Y, Z ethnicities consider certain old cultures as part of their own identity and that therefore they must originate within the territory of the X, Y, Z ethnicity, as ofc its modern descendants are legitimate heirs and for some culture to have originated elsewhere is an affront to the "modern national unity and cohesion".. It cannot be an affront, there are no modern Etruscans speakers anymore and only Etruscan speakers would have a right to bring such an argument to the table.

    The last time I talked about this it did have such undertones..
    Transmission of the alphabet to and within Italy

    https://www.univie.ac.at/raetica/wiki/Script
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Villanova urns were likely of Gava origin but Gava people were R1a and very Northern autosomaly unlike all V13 finds. E-V13 is totally related to Girla-Mare culture which was non-IE speaking and it may well be this culture held the proto-Etruscan language. Or that simply put Lemnian language was just a survivor of what used to be formerly much more widespread language (instead of them being some recent migrants as some have suggested).

    We know all Thracians were E-V13 as the Girla Mare merged with Gava elements to form the entire range of proto-Thracian cultures.
    There are clear implicit suggestions E-V13 might have relation to Etruscans:
    1. Pšeničevo - all 3 finds are E-V13
    2. Pšeničevo derived of Insula Banului
    3. Insula Banului = Girla Mare + Gava
    4. Gava were R1a so that leaves Girla Mare for E-V13
    5. Girla-Mare was non-IE speaking
    6. Villanovan urns very close to Gava urns.
    7. The only Etruscan Y-DNA J-L283 find is of certain MBA Balkan origin.
    All Thracians EV13? Where did you get that info?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    All Thracians EV13? Where did you get that info?
    EIA Pshenichevo finds are E-V13, one LIA Thracian also. E-V13 flooded the Thrace in LIA. Thracian language has strong affinities to the Baltic group, and Gava culture carried R-Z282, Gava played part in Pshenichevo ethnogenesis.. Thracians were a LBA/EIA people, there were no Thracian speakers in "Thrace" in MBA in all likelihood. Also one "Scythian" (i.e. Getae) from Moldova was E-V13, another was R-Z2106. So basically out of 6 Iron Age finds that can be attributed to Thracians 5 were E-V13.

    R-Z2103 is unlikely to have been related to Thracians. Especially as after the EBA in MBA/LBA there was an influx of some R-Z93 groups to Thrace who probably spoke Iranic languages so they likely left some influence.
    aDNa indicates multiple replacement events have occurred in Thrace.

    So E-V13 is to Thracians what I-Y3120 is to the Slavs, except in much higher percentage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    EIA Thracian language has strong affinities to the Baltic group,

    that's an old herodous story ................the link of these languages is that the baltic goths moved to the black sea circa 150BC and stayed there for more than 300 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    EIA Pshenichevo finds are E-V13, one LIA Thracian also. E-V13 flooded the Thrace in LIA. Thracian language has strong affinities to the Baltic group, and Gava culture carried R-Z282, Gava played part in Pshenichevo ethnogenesis.. Thracians were a LBA/EIA people, there were no Thracian speakers in "Thrace" in MBA in all likelihood. Also one "Scythian" (i.e. Getae) from Moldova was E-V13, another was R-Z2106. So basically out of 6 Iron Age finds that can be attributed to Thracians 5 were E-V13.

    R-Z2103 is unlikely to have been related to Thracians. Especially as after the EBA in MBA/LBA there was an influx of some R-Z93 groups to Thrace who probably spoke Iranic languages so they likely left some influence.
    aDNa indicates multiple replacement events have occurred in Thrace.

    So E-V13 is to Thracians what I-Y3120 is to the Slavs, except in much higher percentage.
    So out of 4 samples they are 4 E-V13, possibly related. Come back when they have 100's of samples. So no R-Z2103 in Thrace? It's everywhere else in the Balkans but not in Thrace?

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    It seems to be in line with previous studies based on Etruscan DNA, particularly the 2019 Stanford study, and what we know through the archaeological record.

    Samples from northern Italy are also needed, however, these will not change the conclusions about the origins of the Etruscans, but the Etruscans had in fact expanded to Mantua (Lombardy) and Adria (Veneto). Despite the arrival of the Gauls in the IV BC the population of Etruria Padana remained largely Etruscan. As it would be interesting the genome of the Rhaeti, Camunians and the ancient Ligurians (the latter were present, archaeologically attested, in most of northern Tuscany to the province of Pistoia).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Proto-Tyrrhenians could have been atleast partially descended from Gava-Holigrady Culture and might have come from East-Alps/Western-Carpathians in the Late Bronze Age. Villanovans were part of Urnfield cultural complex.

    The Urnfield cultural complex is most likely where the genetic signal of steppic ancestry associated with Indo-European present in the Etruscans comes from. Not the language.

    It certainly cannot be ruled out that some Steppe in Etruria arrived even before the end of the Bronze Age. But also this does not change the picture.

    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 04-06-21 at 17:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post


    The Urnfield cultural complex is where the genetic signal of steppic ancestry associated with Indo-European present in the Etruscans comes from. Not the language.

    That's a possibility, i agree. But, the mixture could have easily happened before migrating into Italian Peninsula as well. The thing is we don't know yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That's a possibility, i agree. But, the mixture could have easily happened before migrating into Italian Peninsula as well. The thing is we don't know yet.
    What you are saying does not exist in archaeological studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What you are saying does not exist in archaeological studies.
    Archeological studies indicate that Etruscans were direct descendants of Early Iron Age Villanovan Culture. What alternative studies do exist?

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    The abstract seems to reaffirm the shifts Antonio et al noted for Rome itself. Hopefully the samples appear soon.

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    Are these never before published samples?

    Is this study anyway connected to this recent study https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lated-ancestry ?

    Probably not given:


    This is a positive, since this adds even more samples that can answer a lot of questions, from a historical rich region such as Italian peninsula.


    Would be most interesting for me to see whether, the L283 from the previous study was an outlier, or whether it was an actual Etruscan line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Are these never before published samples?

    Is this study anyway connected to this recent study https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lated-ancestry ?

    Probably not given:


    This is a positive, since this adds even more samples that can answer a lot of questions, from a historical rich region such as Italian peninsula.


    Would be most interesting for me to see whether, the L283 from the previous study was an outlier, or whether it was an actual Etruscan line.

    Covoloni de Broion has nothing to do with etruscans ...............it is part of the indigenous Euganei people who have been in North East Italy since at least 3500BC ........that paper states they only have ydna of R1b1 and G2a3

    Etruscans associate closer with the Umbri people on the Adriatic side of italy

    Why does everyone try to rubbish the indigenous Ligurians and Euganei of northern Italy ? ................maybe a fantasy of Etruscan dominance of Italy, which never happened ? .....................the best is to check the dominance of etruscans over Rome and the 9 generations of etruscan rule over them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Covoloni de Broion has nothing to do with etruscans ...............it is part of the indigenous Euganei people who have been in North East Italy since at least 3500BC ........that paper states they only have ydna of R1b1 and G2a3

    Etruscans associate closer with the Umbri people on the Adriatic side of italy

    Why does everyone try to rubbish the indigenous Ligurians and Euganei of northern Italy ? ................maybe a fantasy of Etruscan dominance of Italy, which never happened ? .....................the best is to check the dominance of etruscans over Rome and the 9 generations of etruscan rule over them.
    I am confused ...

    My points personally had nothing to do with that. More of a question whether these samples are in any way related to the ones on the map (Covoloni de Brion are not even Etruscan in that map, so I wasn't even referring to them...).

    Maybe you were not addressing me, or maybe I did not understand what you meant?

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    I'm interested to see this paper, also I wonder what part of Southern Italy they are referring to. I assume it was the area that was colonized by Etruscans, since that is the topic of the paper. The influx of "Eastern Mediterranean" makes sense by the Imperial era, because it would probably have meant the incorporation of the Greek colonies which were right next door. I am also assuming the Etruscans will probably look like they did, genetically, in Antonio et al. 2019.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I'm interested to see this paper, also I wonder what part of Southern Italy they are referring to. I assume it was the area that was colonized by Etruscans, since that is the topic of the paper. The influx of "Eastern Mediterranean" makes sense by the Imperial era, because it would probably have meant the incorporation of the Greek colonies which were right next door. I am also assuming the Etruscans will probably look like they did, genetically, in Antonio et al. 2019.
    Roman samples in late antiquity who are Southern Italian-like have around 10-15% J1, while modern South Italians have around 2% to 5% J1. This makes it clear that Southern Italians were different from Estrucans in antiquity.

    The reason why Late Antiquity Romans plot with Southern Italians is probably coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Roman samples in late antiquity who are Southern Italian-like have around 10-15% J1, while modern South Italians have around 2% to 5% J1. This makes it clear that Southern Italians were different from Estrucans in antiquity.

    The reason why Late Antiquity Romans plot with Southern Italians is probably coincidence.
    It is possibly a coincidence, but I don't think it is probably a coincidence. I don't think anyone can determine probability.

    Modern Italians, including southerners certainly are connected to the middle ages, I don't see why a mere era earlier is out of the question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Roman samples in late antiquity who are Southern Italian-like have around 10-15% J1, while modern South Italians have around 2% to 5% J1. This makes it clear that Southern Italians were different from Estrucans in antiquity.
    The reason why Late Antiquity Romans plot with Southern Italians is probably coincidence.
    Looking at remains from the Roman period and Late Antiquity is not like looking at samples from the Bronze Age, for example, where, after a spurt of migration people stayed in certain areas for long periods of time.

    During Late Antiquity, depending on the time periods, you have the Gothic Wars, with the Byzantines bringing in mercenary troops from near and far. The Byzantines also re-established trade routes. I'm not surprised there might have been an upsurge in certain haplogroups, just as in the Langobard burials you see a lot of U-106 (a lot more than is present in Piemonte today, btw.)

    I'm also unclear about the precise dating and context of these samples. The first Saracen incursions are around 827. Depending on that dating that could have an impact too in some samples, even if not on the genetics of the mainland.

    These kinds of "contacts" can leave some y dna that survives, maybe even some autosomal, but I've seen nothing anywhere or in any time period which would convince me it's enough to significantly change the "profile" of a population.

    We saw the same thing in the Antonio et al Roman samples from the Imperium and Late Antiquity, where some of them were clearly visitors to Italy from Northern Europe. (Of course, that there might have been visitors from the Levant who "didn't" stay and become part of the native population is clearly impossible. Magic erased the "tail" to the Levant. :))

    Rome was already a place of pilgrimage. Heck, the Archbishop of Canterbury took the Via Francigena to Rome to see the Pope, passing literally the front step of the house where I was born along the Magra. The description of the trip mentions the death of some of the pilgrims or retainers. Doesn't mean they're my ancestors.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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