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Thread: Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

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    Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

    I'm posting the ENA abstract from the current study:The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect.


    The origin, development and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria has been the subject of scholarly debate for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE – 1,000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.


    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866

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    Hmm, only abstract?

    Would be nice to see Y-DNA, autosomal, mtDNA of Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'm posting the ENA abstract from the current study:The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect.




    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
    82 samples this looks very promising.


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    Proto-Tyrrhenians could have been atleast partially descended from Gava-Holigrady Culture and might have come from East-Alps/Western-Carpathians in the Late Bronze Age. Villanovans were part of Urnfield cultural complex.


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    It seems to be in line with previous studies based on Etruscan DNA, particularly the 2019 Stanford study, and what we know through the archaeological record.

    Samples from northern Italy are also needed, however, these will not change the conclusions about the origins of the Etruscans, but the Etruscans had in fact expanded to Mantua (Lombardy) and Adria (Veneto). Despite the arrival of the Gauls in the IV BC the population of Etruria Padana remained largely Etruscan. As it would be interesting the genome of the Rhaeti, Camunians and the ancient Ligurians (the latter were present, archaeologically attested, in most of northern Tuscany to the province of Pistoia).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Proto-Tyrrhenians could have been atleast partially descended from Gava-Holigrady Culture and might have come from East-Alps/Western-Carpathians in the Late Bronze Age. Villanovans were part of Urnfield cultural complex.

    The Urnfield cultural complex is most likely where the genetic signal of steppic ancestry associated with Indo-European present in the Etruscans comes from. Not the language.

    It certainly cannot be ruled out that some Steppe in Etruria arrived even before the end of the Bronze Age. But also this does not change the picture.

    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 04-06-21 at 17:05.

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    The abstract seems to reaffirm the shifts Antonio et al noted for Rome itself. Hopefully the samples appear soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post


    The Urnfield cultural complex is where the genetic signal of steppic ancestry associated with Indo-European present in the Etruscans comes from. Not the language.

    That's a possibility, i agree. But, the mixture could have easily happened before migrating into Italian Peninsula as well. The thing is we don't know yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That's a possibility, i agree. But, the mixture could have easily happened before migrating into Italian Peninsula as well. The thing is we don't know yet.
    What you are saying does not exist in archaeological studies.

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    Are these never before published samples?

    Is this study anyway connected to this recent study https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lated-ancestry ?

    Probably not given:


    This is a positive, since this adds even more samples that can answer a lot of questions, from a historical rich region such as Italian peninsula.


    Would be most interesting for me to see whether, the L283 from the previous study was an outlier, or whether it was an actual Etruscan line.
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    I'm interested to see this paper, also I wonder what part of Southern Italy they are referring to. I assume it was the area that was colonized by Etruscans, since that is the topic of the paper. The influx of "Eastern Mediterranean" makes sense by the Imperial era, because it would probably have meant the incorporation of the Greek colonies which were right next door. I am also assuming the Etruscans will probably look like they did, genetically, in Antonio et al. 2019.

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    This short abstract already gives us several interesting hints: "Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE.... " My interpretation of this claim is that the researchers found plenty Etruscan outliers of Central European, North African or Near Eastern origin/or with these respective admixtures. It appears that the Etruscan outlier with North African/Punic ancestry from the Roman paper wasn't totally uncommon in Etruria. However, it also seems that these detected admixtures overall didn't alter the Etruscan genetic profile very much. Furthermore, the authors by pointing out the "lack of recent Anatolian admixture" in Etruscans they're alluding that their finding doesn't support the Anatolian/Trojan origin of the Etruscans. Besides, if I remember correctly there was a rumor about an upcoming Etruscan paper where some Etruscans had unexpected R1b and I1 hp. I'm really looking forward to this paper that is indeed very promising and I think we can expect the full study to be published in the very near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post


    This short abstract already gives us several interesting hints: "Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE.... " My interpretation of this claim is that the researchers found plenty Etruscan outliers of Central European, North African or Near Eastern origin/or with these respective admixtures. It appears that the Etruscan outlier with North African/Punic ancestry from the Roman paper wasn't totally uncommon in Etruria. However, it also seems that these detected admixtures overall didn't alter the Etruscan genetic profile very much. Furthermore, the authors by pointing out the "lack of recent Anatolian admixture" in Etruscans they're alluding that their finding doesn't support the Anatolian/Trojan origin of the Etruscans. Besides, if I remember correctly there was a rumor about an upcoming Etruscan paper where some Etruscans had unexpected R1b and I1 hp. I'm really looking forward to this paper that is indeed very promising and I think we can expect the full study to be published in the very near future.

    I read it differently, if the local gene pool is largely maintained through the first millennium BC, ten centuries, it means that foreign presences were not so numerous as to change the gene pool of the local population. As opposed to what will happen in the Roman imperial era. It is not clarifyng whether these individuals of Central European, North African and Near Eastern ancestry were Etruscans with foreign ancestry or simply foreigners. Near Eastern origin could also be island Greeks. North African could also be Punics from Sardinia who were mixed with Nuragics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    I read it differently, if the local gene pool is largely maintained through the first millennium BC, ten centuries, it means that foreign presences were not so numerous as to change the gene pool of the local population. As opposed to what will happen in the Roman imperial era. It is not clarifyng whether these individuals of Central European, North African and Near Eastern ancestry were Etruscans with foreign ancestry or simply foreigners. Near Eastern origin could also be island Greeks. North African could also be Punics from Sardinia who were mixed with Nuragics.
    I read it the same way as yourself.

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    I kinda wish they had not given us a preview at all, just wait until the study is all out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    What you are saying does not exist in archaeological studies.
    Archeological studies indicate that Etruscans were direct descendants of Early Iron Age Villanovan Culture. What alternative studies do exist?

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    82 is a fair sample
    If all are males i am expecting
    Some e-v13 ...
    and please maybe an e-m123
    For me ..
    ( since the remains strach to 1000Ad it is possible )

    P.s
    E-pf6751 or e-fgc18401 derived branches of
    e-m84 could occure
    Last edited by kingjohn; 04-06-21 at 22:44.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    I read it differently, if the local gene pool is largely maintained through the first millennium BC, ten centuries, it means that foreign presences were not so numerous as to change the gene pool of the local population. As opposed to what will happen in the Roman imperial era. It is not clarifyng whether these individuals of Central European, North African and Near Eastern ancestry were Etruscans with foreign ancestry or simply foreigners. Near Eastern origin could also be island Greeks. North African could also be Punics from Sardinia who were mixed with Nuragics.



    My conclusion doesn't really differ that much from yours. But I do think, speculate that the researchers found Etruscan outliers that weren't sporadic or very small in numbers. However, it seems that these outliers were still not enough to have a genetic impact on the Etruscans in a meaningful way. Keep in mind, that I was only referring to the Central European/North African/Near Eastern ancestry, and not to the East Med component from the Imperial Roman period which indeed changed the genetic profile of the Etruscans substantially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Are these never before published samples?

    Is this study anyway connected to this recent study https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...lated-ancestry ?

    Probably not given:


    This is a positive, since this adds even more samples that can answer a lot of questions, from a historical rich region such as Italian peninsula.


    Would be most interesting for me to see whether, the L283 from the previous study was an outlier, or whether it was an actual Etruscan line.

    Covoloni de Broion has nothing to do with etruscans ...............it is part of the indigenous Euganei people who have been in North East Italy since at least 3500BC ........that paper states they only have ydna of R1b1 and G2a3

    Etruscans associate closer with the Umbri people on the Adriatic side of italy

    Why does everyone try to rubbish the indigenous Ligurians and Euganei of northern Italy ? ................maybe a fantasy of Etruscan dominance of Italy, which never happened ? .....................the best is to check the dominance of etruscans over Rome and the 9 generations of etruscan rule over them.
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    My conclusion doesn't really differ that much from yours. But I do think, speculate that the researchers found Etruscan outliers that weren't sporadic or very small in numbers. However, it seems that these outliers were still not enough to have a genetic impact on the Etruscans in a meaningful way. Keep in mind, that I was only referring to the Central European/North African/Near Eastern ancestry, and not to the East Med component from the Imperial Roman period which indeed changed the genetic profile of the Etruscans substantially.
    The Roman imperial period changed the genetic profile of all of Italy, as all of Italy was part of the Roman Empire. It is too early to draw conclusions, though. This study clarifies the origins of the Etruscans once and for all, but studies on the rest of Italy are still lacking.

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    My two cents:
    it just mirrors the result of the Moots paper, but it just adds that it wasn't just Latium but the same pattern was observed at least in Etruria and at least some regions of south Italy (we don't know yet if they mean all south Italy or just the regions under Etruscan control), and also the abstract of the moots paper talked about "ancestry shifts", but in the end the data showed that the "genetic profile" of Italy didn't change much, that maybe it is not a good idea to draw from samples taken in metropolies (we don't know yet where these are from), where you obviously are going to see more diversity, simple inferences about the general populace( for example, it would be wrong to infer from the average genetic profile of Londoners the genetic profile of Englishmen at large).

    Either way, judging from the haplos and all the genetic literature up to this point about the archeogenetics of Italians, it doesn't sound quite right that Tuscans are the result of a 50% "eastern med" (whether be it greek-like or Levantine-like, though I think the label is too vague) 50% ancient "Italic" mix plus germanic, thus I think this paper will show similar results to the moots paper also in what regards the transitory nature of the east med and north european components.

    Till the paper is out, we can just speculate and we can get to see what it has to say precisely about the genetic history of Italy once it's out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Covoloni de Broion has nothing to do with etruscans ...............it is part of the indigenous Euganei people who have been in North East Italy since at least 3500BC ........that paper states they only have ydna of R1b1 and G2a3

    Etruscans associate closer with the Umbri people on the Adriatic side of italy

    Why does everyone try to rubbish the indigenous Ligurians and Euganei of northern Italy ? ................maybe a fantasy of Etruscan dominance of Italy, which never happened ? .....................the best is to check the dominance of etruscans over Rome and the 9 generations of etruscan rule over them.
    I am confused ...

    My points personally had nothing to do with that. More of a question whether these samples are in any way related to the ones on the map (Covoloni de Brion are not even Etruscan in that map, so I wasn't even referring to them...).

    Maybe you were not addressing me, or maybe I did not understand what you meant?

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    There is already a published Imperial period Roman sample from Etruria (Chiusi, 200-400 AD). In the PCA this sample ends up with modern people from Italian Latium, I would say it has less than ~50% admixture from the eastern Mediterranean. Perhaps it's much more complex, even in Imperial Roman times the population was more diverse, there aren't enough samples to draw conclusions.









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    ^^interesting, could you point me to the study? I would like to analyze it with Dodecad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^interesting, could you point me to the study? I would like to analyze it with Dodecad.
    yes of course

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7186082/

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1106-9

    Project: PRJEB35216

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB35216

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    There is already a published Imperial period Roman sample from Etruria (Chiusi, 200-400 AD). In the PCA this sample ends up with modern people from Italian Latium, I would say it has less than ~50% admixture from the eastern Mediterranean. Perhaps it's much more complex, even in Imperial Roman times the population was more diverse, there aren't enough samples to draw conclusions.








    Thanks for sharing this resource!

    Does anybody know what they refer to when they say Eastern Mediterranean? Since the Mediterranean is so vast, it could mean many things.

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