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Thread: Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

  1. #276
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    These are not 82 Etruscan specimens, they can't all be labeled as Etruscan, no preprint came out, and they cover an era from 800 BC to 100 AD, almost 2000 years and not all are from Etruria.
    I know. I posted that before I realised that the samples went as far as 1000 CE.

    I made an average of six samples with Germanic haplogroups (I1, R1b-L238, R1b-U106 and N1c1 which surely came along) and the results are very different. Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian.

    Distance to: Medieval_Tuscany
    6.12423056 Spanish_Baleares
    6.27943469 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    6.36714222 Spanish_Valencia
    7.22225726 Spanish_Catalonia
    7.74048448 Spanish_Andalusia
    7.80179467 Portuguese
    7.96512398 Swiss_Italian
    8.12560767 Italian_Lombardy
    8.26597847 Spanish_Aragon
    8.40026785 Spanish_Galicia
    8.80765576 Spanish_Cantabria
    8.86411304 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    9.38626124 Italian_Piedmont
    9.70680689 Spanish_Canarias
    9.71303763 Italian_Trentino
    9.74944101 Spanish_Asturias
    9.89557477 Italian_Liguria
    10.33320860 Spanish_Extremadura_1KG
    10.60837405 French_Auvergne
    10.69555983 Spanish_La_Rioja
    10.90566825 Italian_Veneto
    10.99904996 Italian_Emilia
    11.73342235 French_South
    12.11700871 French_Corsica
    12.38671466 Italian_Tuscany
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  2. #277
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Ph2ter on Anthrogenica did his magic as usual. These are some of them.


    Here are my closest matches, g25 calc, since not on desktop and able to use other calcs.


    https://imgur.com/a/DxYohkU

    As I've said in another thread, the Italian breakdown is incomplete on G25 (only 1 Ligurian, Emilia-Romagna completely missing, 1/3 of the Corsicans seem to be to partially French, North East Italy is too much Alpine shifted...). Ph2ter is a good user but these maps reflect the problems the G25 has (and it's not the G25's fault, it's the academic samples that are released).

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

    On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

    Highly improbable:

    - C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
    - G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
    - H3 (found in South Asia)
    - I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
    - N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
    - O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
    - O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
    - R1b-U106 (North European)
    - R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
    - R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

    Impossible:

    - I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
    - R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
    - R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


    Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

    - A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

    If we exclude the above, we are left with :

    - E1b1b-L618 (1x)
    - G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
    - I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
    - I2c1 (3x)
    - J1 (1x)
    - J1-P58 (x1)
    - J2 (x1)
    - J2a1-L26 (3x)
    - J2b2 (5x)
    - R1b-Z2103 (1x)
    - R1b-L51 (6x)
    - R1b-P312 (2x)
    - R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


    Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

    Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.
    Amazing analysis. I was hoping for someone to pull the numbers and extract the objective data.
    Instead of hypothesising without the paper

    I was about to start estimating myself.
    .

  4. #279
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I know. I posted that before I realised that the samples went as far as 1000 CE.

    I made an average of six samples with Germanic haplogroups (I1, R1b-L238, R1b-U106 and N1c1 which surely came along) and the results are very different. Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian.

    Distance to: Medieval_Tuscany
    6.12423056 Spanish_Baleares
    6.27943469 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    6.36714222 Spanish_Valencia
    7.22225726 Spanish_Catalonia
    7.74048448 Spanish_Andalusia
    7.80179467 Portuguese
    7.96512398 Swiss_Italian
    8.12560767 Italian_Lombardy
    8.26597847 Spanish_Aragon
    8.40026785 Spanish_Galicia
    8.80765576 Spanish_Cantabria
    8.86411304 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    9.38626124 Italian_Piedmont
    9.70680689 Spanish_Canarias
    9.71303763 Italian_Trentino
    9.74944101 Spanish_Asturias
    9.89557477 Italian_Liguria
    10.33320860 Spanish_Extremadura_1KG
    10.60837405 French_Auvergne
    10.69555983 Spanish_La_Rioja
    10.90566825 Italian_Veneto
    10.99904996 Italian_Emilia
    11.73342235 French_South
    12.11700871 French_Corsica
    12.38671466 Italian_Tuscany


    Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian because you can't average it that way. It is not possible to calculate a medieval Tuscan average based only on those who have a Germanic Y-DNA (which are not all from Tuscany).



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

    On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

    Highly improbable:

    - C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
    - G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
    - H3 (found in South Asia)
    - I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
    - N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
    - O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
    - O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
    - R1b-U106 (North European)
    - R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
    - R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

    Impossible:

    - I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
    - R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
    - R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


    Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

    - A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

    If we exclude the above, we are left with :

    - E1b1b-L618 (1x)
    - G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
    - I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
    - I2c1 (3x)
    - J1 (1x)
    - J1-P58 (x1)
    - J2 (x1)
    - J2a1-L26 (3x)
    - J2b2 (5x)
    - R1b-Z2103 (1x)
    - R1b-L51 (6x)
    - R1b-P312 (2x)
    - R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


    Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

    Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.

    I do agree with much of this. Other analyses of Etruscan samples will also come out in the future and hopefully those from the oldest phase (900-500 BC) will be tested, which will clarify what other clades of R1b and in particular of R1b U152 were present among Etruscans.

  5. #280
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    As I've said in another thread, the Italian breakdown is incomplete on G25 (only 1 Ligurian, Emilia-Romagna completely missing, 1/3 of the Corsicans seem to be to partially French, North East Italy is too much Alpine shifted...). Ph2ter is a good user but these maps reflect the problems the G25 has (and it's not the G25's fault, it's the academic samples that are released).
    Thanks. Have a feeling you are right. For the most part I just like the visualization aspcet of such an aproach, wish the database was more representative.

    And for modern Balkans, which is my reference they never dissapoint. In fact using G25 you can find glaring errors in academic samples as you pointed out. Some of the Scythians for example, autosomally lool on the South Europe cline. Which unless you read the updated version of the paper, and are stuck with the first release you would be lead astray.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  6. #281
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Keep in mind the apropriate disclaimer from Pax.
    But just in case this can contribute anything, again from Ph2ter.

    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post









    and some other:

    PS: The first 4-5 are samples I requested due yo being my closest matches.

  7. #282
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Keep in mind the apropriate disclaimer from Pax.
    But just in case this can contribute anything, again from Ph2ter.


    PS: The first 4-5 are samples I requested due yo being my closest matches.
    Does anybody have any idea what sort of populations or ancestries from said periods would have highest affinity with South Balkans (Greek,Albanian), Italy, and Iberia?

    My initial guess would be some republican or likelier imperial pop, but anything before that? Cause I am not aware.

  8. #283
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    Dodecad Globe 13 by Jovialis

    Distance to: Duarte
    5.65621782 Olalde_et_al_2019:I12514
    6.13415031 Olalde_et_al_2019:I10895
    6.24398110 Olalde_et_al_2019:I10866
    6.26891538 Olalde_et_al_2019:I10853
    6.39570168 Olalde_et_al_2019:I10892
    6.55540235 Olalde_et_al_2019:I1313
    6.74273683 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R110
    6.89459208 Olalde_et_al_2019:I12516
    6.91129510 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R109
    6.92270901 Saupe_et_al._2021:utigBRC003
    6.92582125 Olalde_et_al_2019:I10852
    6.93939479 Olalde_et_al_2019:I3584
    6.94108061 Olalde_et_al_2019:I6490
    7.11523014 VOL001
    7.29715013 C_Valdiosera_et_al._2018_por003
    7.33978883 CSN010
    7.43433924 Saupe_et_al._2021:utigBRC002
    7.48911877 VET001
    7.49508506 Olalde_et_al_2019:I3585
    7.51214350 Saupe_et_al._2021:utigGCP003A1
    7.51417993 Saupe_et_al._2021:utigGCP002A1
    7.59223946 S_Brunel_et_al._2020:ERS88
    7.61400683 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R1289
    7.67329786 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R474
    7.71966321 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R63
    7.71978627 Olalde_et_al._2018:I4890
    7.78762480 Olalde_et_al_2019:I7673
    7.79531911 Olalde_et_al._2018:I5524
    7.85466740 Olalde_et_al_2019:I7675
    7.88628556 TAQ002
    7.93573563 CSN013
    7.96866363 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R61
    7.98440981 TAQ016
    7.99661804 TAQ004
    7.99977500 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R473
    8.00058123 TAQ008
    8.00427386 Olalde_et_al_2019:I12649
    8.00884511 CSN006
    8.07916456 TAQ015
    8.08500464 Olalde_et_al._2018:I7043
    8.12419227 Olalde_et_al_2019:I12515
    8.13916458 Olalde_et_al_2019:I3574
    8.19093401 Mathieson_et_al_2018:I4332
    8.20894634 PRZ001
    8.21292274 Olalde_et_al_2019:I7498
    8.22487690 Olalde_et_al._2018:E09538
    8.43333860 CAM001
    8.44349454 Furtwängler_et_al_2020:SX18
    8.50301711 TAQ013
    8.52072767 CSN009
    8.56320034 TAQ001
    8.57638036 Mathieson_et_al_2018:I4331
    8.62099182 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R105
    8.75379918 PRZ002
    8.81215638 Olalde_et_al_2019:I3982
    8.84378313 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R435
    8.91038159 ETR005
    8.96763068 CSN005
    8.97885850 Olalde_et_al._2018:I7040
    9.00017222 CAM003
    9.00066664 Olalde_et_al_2019:I7692
    9.07093159 CSN003
    9.12229686 Mathieson_et_al_2018:Bul10
    9.14476353 CSN001
    9.25861761 Olalde_et_al._2018:I2364
    9.26784225 Olalde_et_al._2018:I7041
    9.26906684 Olalde_et_al._2018:I2478
    9.26906684 Olalde_et_al_2018:I2478
    9.29287899 VEU001
    9.29907522 Olalde_et_al._2018:I3594
    9.29951612 S_Brunel_et_al._2020:NOR2B6
    9.31362443 TAQ006
    9.32172731 Mathieson_et_al_2018:I2520
    9.39716979 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R33
    9.43533783 Olalde_et_al_2019:I3981
    9.44830143 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R1021
    9.47892926 VET003_4
    9.48451369 Olalde_et_al_2019:I7457
    9.48753920 Mathieson_et_al_2018:I3313
    9.51954306 Mathieson_et_al_2018:Bul8
    9.53737909 Olalde_et_al._2018:I6581
    9.54571108 TAQ018
    9.54704143 TAQ010
    9.61105093 CSN008
    9.67708634 Olalde_et_al_2019:I10897
    9.69157366 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R851
    9.75466042 TAQ024
    9.76192604 Olalde_et_al_2019:I8213
    9.76610465 Olalde_et_al_2019:I3809
    9.79486600 Antonio_M_et_al_2019:R1015
    9.85856988 CSN012
    9.87977733 TAQ019
    9.91253752 MAS004

  9. #284
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here are all of the coordinates in Dodecad K12b format:

    Code:
    CAM001,1.38,0.19,1.2,0,47.62,24.58,0,0,6.88,0,17.87,0.27
    CAM002,4.72,0.03,0,1.59,40.47,34.19,0,0,4.64,0,13.94,0.44
    CAM003,0.93,0.04,0.79,0,49.21,23.83,0,0,7,0.18,16.98,1.04
    CSN001,0.74,0,1.6,0.73,46.5,23.83,0,0,7.19,0,19.25,0.16
    CSN002,0,0.36,0,0,41.12,32.35,0,0,0,0,26.17,0
    CSN003,0.97,0.01,2,0,49.14,21.97,1.05,0,7.95,0.53,15.93,0.45
    CSN004,1.49,0,2.17,0.71,51.75,19.41,0.13,0,5.2,0,18.21,0.93
    CSN005,1.48,0,4.65,0,39.23,28.19,0.65,0,6.11,0.54,19.16,0
    CSN006,3.62,0,0,1.53,45.77,24.02,0.29,0,4.9,0,19.6,0.27
    CSN007,0,0,0,0.5,50.29,20.45,0,0,10.86,0,17.91,0
    CSN008,4.93,0,0,0.4,43.71,27.95,0,0,4.16,0,18.84,0
    CSN009,2.52,0,2.03,0,39.86,27.95,0,0,2.52,0.43,23.93,0.75
    CSN010,4.43,0.27,3.49,0,40.36,31.59,0,0,5.33,1.81,11.48,1.25
    CSN012,7.01,0,10.55,0,41.84,29.45,0,0,0,0,11.15,0
    CSN013,4.87,0,0.54,0,45.93,21.96,0.41,0,5.92,0.25,19.55,0.57
    ETR003,10.36,0,2.55,0,30.58,19.47,0,0,10.98,0,25.66,0.41
    ETR004,17.44,0,0,0,19.59,19.63,0,0,11.7,0,31.64,0
    ETR005,2,0,0,1.54,45.54,20.52,0.17,0,9.35,1.02,18.73,1.13
    ETR006,3.87,1.22,0,0,39.39,15.01,0,0,12.67,0,26.45,1.39
    ETR007,5.51,0,2.37,1.28,30.11,25.01,0,0,8.81,0,26.92,0
    ETR010,4.58,0.05,1.08,0.22,37.3,17.15,0.08,0,9.4,0,29.53,0.6
    ETR012,17.52,1.96,0,0,41.58,12.98,3.45,0.35,5.74,0,16.42,0
    ETR013,6.64,0.06,1.86,0,35.44,14.98,0,0,9.51,0,31.24,0.28
    ETR014,3.51,0,2.87,0,27.31,14.86,0.51,0,14.53,0,36.4,0
    MAG001,0.84,0,0,0,47.05,24.88,0.37,0.08,3.46,0.47,22.84,0.02
    MAS001,7.2,0.84,4.18,0,26.73,30.23,1.6,0.6,6.25,1.12,21.08,0.18
    MAS002,6.49,1.52,3.63,0,23.56,7.82,0,0.48,18.33,0.02,38.16,0
    MAS003,2.81,0,8.6,1.47,34.71,11.66,0,1.28,11.86,0,26.84,0.76
    MAS004,1.12,0,0.85,0,44.63,29.23,0,0,1.36,1.35,21.46,0
    POP001,4.72,0.15,0.86,0,35.02,19.76,0,0,8.74,1.36,28.84,0.55
    PRZ001,1.55,0.11,0,0,48.41,23.78,0,0,6.08,0.13,19.22,0.71
    PRZ002,0,0,2.6,0.54,47.1,27.43,0,0,4.06,1.06,17.2,0
    TAQ001,2.36,0,4.12,0.57,47.15,23.95,0,0,4.6,0,17.25,0
    TAQ002,0,0,1.15,0.26,46.51,23.88,0,0,5.81,0,21.27,1.12
    TAQ003,5.6,0,2.14,1.3,29.31,17.09,0.1,0.93,11.36,0,31.59,0.58
    TAQ004,1.71,0.66,0.95,0.36,48.5,23.89,0,0,5.59,0,17.87,0.48
    TAQ005,1.39,0.44,5.14,0,46.29,17.75,0.22,0.33,8.86,0.41,18.68,0.49
    TAQ006,1.18,0,3.59,0,42.96,25.05,0.15,0,2.83,0,24.24,0
    TAQ007,3.25,0.65,8.19,0,33.36,6.55,0.82,0,13.72,0.07,31.87,1.52
    TAQ008,4.27,1.3,0.28,0.84,49.67,21.5,0,0,3.99,0,17.53,0.63
    TAQ009,4.13,0.23,2.43,0.82,33.16,19.69,0.14,0,9.54,0,28.81,1.06
    TAQ010,0,0,1.32,0.05,48.43,24.81,0.71,0,4.04,0,20.41,0.24
    TAQ011,6.51,0.15,1.38,0.03,33.17,19.02,0,1.09,10.21,0,27.5,0.96
    TAQ012,3.32,0,1.79,0,51.8,17.96,0.72,0,7.3,0,16.79,0.33
    TAQ013,2.83,1.64,1.78,0,46.46,21.33,0,0,6.68,0,19.04,0.23
    TAQ015,1.72,0,2.42,0,46.31,21.99,0,0,6.46,0.63,19.66,0.81
    TAQ016,2.43,0,1.67,0,46.91,24.12,0.84,0,5.34,0,18.06,0.63
    TAQ017,4.08,0,1.96,0,48.92,20.11,0,0,5.6,0,19.12,0.21
    TAQ018,0,0,0.47,0,48.53,20.84,0.43,0,6.5,1.43,20.91,0.89
    TAQ019,0.49,0,2.18,0,47.66,24.5,0.17,0,5.48,0.04,19.27,0.21
    TAQ020,9.02,0.66,1.49,0.5,34.13,18.73,0.12,0,7.43,0,27.92,0
    TAQ021,3.74,0,2.51,0,33.22,11.47,2.01,0,12.62,0,34.44,0
    TAQ022,5.66,0,2.84,0,34.54,19.74,2.22,0,6.34,0,28.11,0.54
    TAQ023,0.11,0,9.86,0,38.6,11.68,0.88,1.34,10.18,0,26.04,1.31
    TAQ024,1.55,0.2,4.01,0.27,46.92,21.83,0,0.36,4.57,0,20.29,0
    UDC_P,0,0,4.31,0,52.14,29.39,0,0,0.89,0,13.22,0.04
    VEN001,5.14,0,3.87,0.01,28.18,17.6,0,0,11.33,2.38,29.77,1.73
    VEN002,2.79,8.01,0,12.59,16.3,9.93,3.89,0.01,6.34,27.43,12.71,0
    VEN005,6.66,0,4.28,1.53,32.55,10.92,0,0,10.86,0.37,32.83,0
    VEN006,8.51,0.54,5.29,0.22,27.14,16.32,0,0,9.76,1.99,30.08,0.16
    VEN008,4.55,6.58,0,0,36.17,16.54,2.72,0,8.77,0,23.04,1.63
    VEN009,4.96,0,10.9,0.28,29.02,16.26,0,3.03,6.57,0,28.99,0
    VEN010,16.14,0,2.12,1.09,37.1,15.42,0,0.05,13.2,0,14.88,0
    VEN012,2.86,0,1.41,0.17,24.58,14.71,0,1.75,12.7,5.77,36.03,0.03
    VEN013,7.7,0,5.12,0,28.43,14.81,0,0,10.94,1.22,30.32,1.45
    VEN014,12.68,0,5.83,0,33.04,0,0,0.24,17.71,1.35,28.74,0.42
    VEN015,7.16,0,3.85,0.73,28.62,13.96,0.39,0,13.73,0,30.9,0.64
    VEN016,6.56,0,6.02,0,25.63,16.98,0,0,13.65,0.44,30.73,0
    VEN017,1.13,1.55,0,0.12,32.91,17.47,3.75,0,12.37,3.07,27.62,0
    VEN018,9.33,0,3.69,0,27.33,17.18,0,0,19.59,0,20.74,2.14
    VEN021,8.65,0,0.51,3.3,17.54,14.06,0,2.43,21.68,1.47,30.37,0
    VEN022,7.04,0,0,5.28,15.13,25.83,0,0.13,20.82,0,25.77,0
    VET001,1.52,0,2.24,1.15,42.15,23.87,0,1.18,6.3,0,21.57,0
    VET002,0.77,1.24,2.59,0,48.74,18.77,0,0,7.8,0.08,20.03,0
    VET003_4,1.33,0,2.66,0,47.08,21.2,0.25,0.26,7.04,0.15,20.03,0
    VET005,7.72,0.55,0,0,43.13,37.83,0,1.41,1.61,0,7.74,0
    VET007,0,0,2.57,0.68,51.02,20.09,0.22,0,6.74,0.42,17.63,0.63
    VET008,0.41,0,8.27,0,38.29,9.06,0,1.75,12.78,0.04,28.42,0.99
    VET010,0,0,4.61,0.76,48.22,21.92,0.27,0,3.53,0,20.12,0.57
    VET011,0,0,6.57,0,51.11,17.17,0,2.72,3.32,0,19.1,0
    VEU001,0,0,1.86,2.69,45.76,22.07,0,0.83,3.79,0,23.01,0
    VOL001,0.94,0,1.77,0,44.5,24.66,0.61,0.03,5.61,0,21.4,0.48

    Great job indeed, Jovialis.

    It seems that it exists an Etruscan cluster west of northern Italians (and with the new samples it does fit what showed by Stanford 2019).
    Correct me if I'm wrong but the only ones that don't join this cluster are the samples labeled as VEN?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Great job indeed, Jovialis.

    It seems that it exists an Etruscan cluster west of northern Italians (and with the new samples it does fit what showed by Stanford 2019).
    Correct me if I'm wrong but the only ones that don't join this cluster are the samples labeled as VEN?
    Some of those have obvious Greek and Levantine admixture, to be specific, some look like being Jewish as discussed on Anthrogenica as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Some of those have obvious Greek and Levantine admixture, to be specific, some look like being Jewish as discussed on Anthrogenica as well.
    Unnecessary clarification, because it is obvious and known that in the PCA they are not all Etruscans or 100% Etruscan. Those that form this cluster unlikely have some Greek or Levantine or Jewish ancestry.

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    These are the closest to me

    Distance to: Hawk_scaled
    0.04048246 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:TAQ:TAQ022
    0.04117742 Etruscan/Italic_high_steppe:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
    0.04252108 Etruscan/Italic_Illyrian:ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
    0.04374269 Etruscan/Italic_Illyrian:ETR:ETR007
    0.04993455 Etruscan/Italic_Illyrian:MAS:MAS001
    0.05001686 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:POP:POP001
    0.05014902 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:ITA_Etruscan_o2:ETR001
    0.05075695 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:ETR:ETR010
    0.05088331 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:ETR:ETR013
    0.05189565 Etruscan/Italic_high_steppe:CSN:CSN009
    0.05262043 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:TAQ:TAQ011
    0.05375866 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:ETR:ETR003
    0.05447815 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
    0.05718102 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:TAQ:TAQ009
    0.05776023 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:TAQ:TAQ003
    0.05782215 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:VEN:VEN001
    0.05977220 Etruscan/Italic_high_steppe:CSN:CSN013
    0.06028296 Etruscan/Italic_main:TAQ:TAQ002
    0.06034794 Etruscan/Italic_main:TAQ:TAQ006
    0.06076335 Etruscan/Italic_high_steppe:CSN:CSN006
    0.06110870 Etruscan/Italic_main:VOL:VOL001
    0.06292835 Etruscan/Italic_main:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473
    0.06299510 Etruscan/Italic_me_admix:ETR:ETR014
    0.06321507 Etruscan/Italic_main:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851
    0.06328310 Etruscan/Italic_main:CSN:CSN003

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian because you can't average it that way. It is not possible to calculate a medieval Tuscan average based only on those who have a Germanic Y-DNA (which are not all from Tuscany).






    I do agree with much of this. Other analyses of Etruscan samples will also come out in the future and hopefully those from the oldest phase (900-500 BC) will be tested, which will clarify what other clades of R1b and in particular of R1b U152 were present among Etruscans.
    As we said, O and C among Etruscans was ridiculous. I estimated about 40 percent R1b, but regardless, it's the dominant y DNA.

    Given that this covers also the period after the fall, I speculated the Goths and the Lombards for the I and U 106, given the history of Toscana.

    As for the exotic E, I can't remember now. What was the coverage?

    However, imo some caution is required. We don't know the place or time period of these samples, including the R1b ones.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Unnecessary clarification, because it is obvious and known that in the PCA they are not all Etruscans or 100% Etruscan. Those that form this cluster unlikely have some Greek or Levantine or Jewish ancestry.
    VEN forms its own cluster apart and some individuals might have more recent East Mediterranean ancestry, but that needs to be clarified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As we said, O and C among Etruscans was ridiculous. I estimated about 40 percent R1b, but regardless, it's the dominant y DNA.

    Given that this covers also the period after the fall, I speculated the Goths and the Lombards for the I and U 106, given the history of Toscana.

    As for the exotic E, I can't remember now. What was the coverage?

    However, imo some caution is required. We don't know the place or time period of these samples, including the R1b ones.
    The coverage is bad according to those knowing better and most being excluded from G25 coordinates because of that.

    This study looks promising for shedding more new light on the debate:
    Title:
    Exploring the genetic diversity of Magna Graecia The case of Campania
    Content:
    Starting in the 8th century BCE, coastal Campania in Southern Italy became a melting pot of various cultures and peoples when Etruscan and Greek colonizers joined local Italic tribes. By establishing cities and trade posts, the contact networks of Campania were further expanded across the Mediterranean and inland.
    We generated ancient genomes from Campania, spanning the 8th to 3rd century BCE, i.e. the Orientalizing, Archaic and Hellenistic-Roman period in this region. While most individuals can be attributed to a genetic ancestry that arose on the Italian mainland, we also discover descendants of migrants from the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean. Most notably, an individual dated to the 8th century at the first Greek settlement, Pithekoussai, a site that also yielded the earliest example of writing in the Euboean alphabet, was genetically of Aegean origin, and we find that this type of ancestry persisted at the site for several centuries. We compare the genetic composition of these descendants of Greek settlers to the local Campanians represented by individuals from the site San Marzano and Etruscan immigrants from Pontecagnano.

    We integrate a thorough analysis of the associated material culture and, where available, strontium isotopes to establish temporal and cultural patterns of mobility, ancestry and admixture that shaped the genetic landscape of Campanian Magna Graecia.
    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=3776

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    The coverge for the exotic E is 25-40%
    Very low
    If you ask me i dont think they are real....
    There is 1 E -L618 that looks real 85% prediction
    The C and the O could be huns ?
    Didn't they went through italy?
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Some of those have obvious Greek and Levantine admixture, to be specific, some look like being Jewish as discussed on Anthrogenica as well.
    Did you look at the Ven samples on this PCA? Where do you think the Ashkenazi samples would land?

    Agamemnon is just going to have to give up his dream of being pseudo Italian.Same for Azurro hoping to be pseudo Askenazi.

    How many times do people over there have to be wrong before people stop trusting them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    The coverge for the exotic E is 25-40%
    Very low
    If you ask me i dont think they are real....
    There is 1 E -L618 that looks real 85% prediction
    The C and the O could be huns ?
    Didn't they went through italy?
    In Italy we say with a bit of irony "non ci siamo fatti mancare niente". I hope Angela knows how to translate it, I really don't know how to translate it.

    With the Longobards and other Germanic populations, it is possible that small groups of Hun-like populations arrived. I would have to check again, their autosomal DNA doesn't seem to suggest that they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    The coverge for the exotic E is 25-40%
    Very low
    If you ask me i dont think they are real....
    There is 1 E -L618 that looks real 85% prediction
    The C and the O could be huns ?
    Didn't they went through italy?
    That would be close to a thousand years after the Etruscans, even if it were true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Did you look at the Ven samples on this PCA? Where do you think the Ashkenazi samples would land?

    Agamemnon is just going to have to give up his dream of being pseudo Italian.Same for Azurro hoping to be pseudo Askenazi.

    How many times do people over there have to be wrong before people stop trusting them?
    The purpose of Anthrogenica is to make all of classical antiquity, particularly Ancient Greeks, associated with Jews, I guess.

    Funny thing is that Jews of this time period would not even plot near Ashkenazi, because they didn't exist yet. They would plot close to the Near East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    VEN forms its own cluster apart and some individuals might have more recent East Mediterranean ancestry, but that needs to be clarified.



    The coverage is bad according to those knowing better and most being excluded from G25 coordinates because of that.

    This study looks promising for shedding more new light on the debate:


    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=3776

    Yes, it will be interesting, but no surprise here, as we've extensively discussed the colonization of Southern Italy, including the precise sources for those migrations.

    My personal opinion has always been that the ancient Greeks of that period and the classical Era as well would probably turn out to be more like modern Southern Italians than like modern Greek people from the mainland, with the exception of the Peloponnese; in other words, more like Aegean Greeks. It paid to actually read and understand the paper on the genetics of the Peloponnese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    As I've said in another thread, the Italian breakdown is incomplete on G25 (only 1 Ligurian, Emilia-Romagna completely missing, 1/3 of the Corsicans seem to be to partially French, North East Italy is too much Alpine shifted...). Ph2ter is a good user but these maps reflect the problems the G25 has (and it's not the G25's fault, it's the academic samples that are released).
    No wonder I come out as Corsican when I have paper trails going back to the mid 1540s and before and nary a Corsican to be found.;)

    Take a Corsican and mix with some French, and you might get a Tuscan/Emilian/Ligurian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, it will be interesting, but no surprise here, as we've extensively discussed the colonization of Southern Italy, including the precise sources for those migrations.

    My personal opinion has always been that the ancient Greeks of that period and the classical Era as well would probably turn out to be more like modern Southern Italians than like modern Greek people from the mainland, with the exception of the Peloponnese; in other words, more like Aegean Greeks. It paid to actually read and understand the paper on the genetics of the Peloponnese.
    How can Italia being spared from the migrations which even reached Britain and Germania? Or even more so Serbia:
    Content:At its peak, the Roman Empire united all Mediterranean shores under the same rule and law. This, together with great improvements in long-distance communications, brought human mobility across the Mediterranean to an unprecedented scale. From all the areas which were under Roman control, the Balkans is a particularly interesting region as it was the midpoint connecting the Western and the Eastern parts of the Empire; and several peoples groups moved through the region during the Great Migration Period, such as Goths, Huns or Slavs. In this project, we have extracted and analyzed aDNA from ancient Roman and post-Roman individuals (n=69) from 3 settlements located in present-day Serbia: most importantly the capital of Moesia Superior Roman province, Viminacium. Genetic and Radiocarbon dating analyses results point to a high degree of cosmopolitism in Viminacium during the early imperial period. We observe two major groups of individuals: one with a local ancestral signature likely deriving from Balkan Bronze and Iron Age populations, and other with Near Eastern ancestral origin, suggesting strong population movements from the Eastern parts of Empire impacting not only Rome, but also other major cities like Viminacium. Moreover, we detect remarkable cases of human mobility across the Saharan and the Mediterranean, such as a young male, whose ancestral origins lie in Eastern Africa. These results highlight how dense samplings at specific sites can provide a detailed view on both individual and large-scale human mobility patterns.
    Authors
    Pablo Carrion, Iigo Olalde, Nadin Rohland, Miodrag Grbić, Nataa Miladinović-Radmilović, eljko Tomanović, Duan Keckarević, Ilija Mikić, Carles Lalueza-Fox, David Reich
    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...p?Abstract=571

    We already know the locals, which descend mostly from Channelled Ware LBA-EIA people I'd say, where strongly E-V13 on the paternal side. There is also another study dealing with Greece directly:
    https://eaa.klinkhamergroup.com/eaa2...1_03.08.21.pdf

    Will be interesting to see whether the local Greek population had that much more Iranian-CHG related ancestry than other Copper Age genomes we know (like "Oetzi"). From the poster it looks like it did increase in EBA or at least stabilise, but no steep increase at all.

    But with all those papers out, hopefully this year, things can get more fact based and the debate more detailled. Keep fingers crossed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The purpose of Anthrogenica is to make all of classical antiquity, particularly Ancient Greeks, associated with Jews, I guess.

    Funny thing is that Jews of this time period would not even plot near Ashkenazi, because they didn't exist yet. They would plot close to the Near East.
    Can't expect even rudimentary logic from these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

    On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

    Highly improbable:

    - C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
    - G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
    - H3 (found in South Asia)
    - I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
    - N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
    - O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
    - O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
    - R1b-U106 (North European)
    - R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
    - R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

    Impossible:

    - I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
    - R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
    - R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


    Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

    - A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

    If we exclude the above, we are left with :

    - E1b1b-L618 (1x)
    - G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
    - I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
    - I2c1 (3x)
    - J1 (1x)
    - J1-P58 (x1)
    - J2 (x1)
    - J2a1-L26 (3x)
    - J2b2 (5x)
    - R1b-Z2103 (1x)
    - R1b-L51 (6x)
    - R1b-P312 (2x)
    - R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


    Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

    Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.
    Nice analysis.

    An observation regarding the ages:
    I didn't check the results, so I don't know if the categorizations are correct. Won't discuss it. That said, the reference in YFull, in this case, would be the formation. This specific branch related to the SNP Y57468 involves over 20 equivalents in both YFull and FTDNA, but we currently don't have further info about their chronology in certain timeframe, i.e., when each mutation happened more or less. We know that the older, whatever it is, supposedly happened close to 2800 years ago, and that the newer supposedly happened close to 350 years ago. In theory, it's possible that this Y57468 itself is relatively old, even if the current TMRCA of the branch is 350 ybp. Further data could cause the splitting of (former) equivalents, which would mean new nodes and ages.
    If the sample is indeed R-Y57468, we could pehaps call it a pre-R-Y57468 (based on the current configuration of the branch). But my intention is not really discuss R-Y57468 de per si. It's more about the interpretation of the infos available in YFull.
    Finally, YFull also works with Confidence Intervals. For example, YFull suggests 95% of chances that the R-Y31420 started to form between 2300 and 1000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    How can Italia being spared from the migrations which even reached Britain and Germania? Or even more so Serbia:


    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...p?Abstract=571

    We already know the locals, which descend mostly from Channelled Ware LBA-EIA people I'd say, where strongly E-V13 on the paternal side. There is also another study dealing with Greece directly:
    https://eaa.klinkhamergroup.com/eaa2...1_03.08.21.pdf

    Will be interesting to see whether the local Greek population had that much more Iranian-CHG related ancestry than other Copper Age genomes we know (like "Oetzi"). From the poster it looks like it did increase in EBA or at least stabilise, but no steep increase at all.

    But with all those papers out, hopefully this year, things can get more fact based and the debate more detailled. Keep fingers crossed.
    Where did I ever say Italy was completely spared from the impact of the Barbarian invasions?

    It's true, however, that Italy and Spain and even a lot of France were spared from the kind of population altering that took place in the Balkans after the arrival of the Slavs.

    This is old and well established analysis and data. Do people from anthrogenica to whom you give credence throw out the use of y DNA when this topic comes up? Do you know how little y DNA I and U-106 is found in Italy? Please look it up.If you can't be bothered to look at papers, Maciamo has some maps here.

    You will see that it's predominately in the north, although the percentages are still quite small.Let's add in some history to show why. The Goths were an elite invasion.That's why the Italians still ran everything and not much changed. The Lombards, according to their own historians, numbered 60,000 people including women and children and allied Germanic soldiers who returned home. The majority of their castles were where they entered, in the Veneto, and decreased more and more as they moved south.

    By the time they reached the south, whose genetics in relation to ancient Greeks I was discussing, they were an extremely small in number elite. You have to have some grounding in Italian medieval history to know this. It's all reflected in the y DNA.

    How could anyone compare this to what happened in Thessaly and other parts of northern Greece, and even in more accessible parts of the Peloponnese? What does the y DNA show? Are there really people who still deny that most of the I2a in the Balkans and Greece is Slavic? How about the Slavic R1a?

    How about BID analysis? Have you read Ralph and Coop yet? One can't discuss this topic without referencing it.

    Am I CERTAIN that migration era Greeks will resemble modern Southern Italians, on average, more than, say, Thessalians? No, I'm not, but I think it's a strong possibility

    As for the paper you quoted, I don't think it's relevant. Individual merchants, travelers, etc., don't change the autosomal profile of a people; only folk migrations do that.

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