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Thread: Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

  1. #401
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    If you pay they’ll show you the SZ1 Haplogroups :)

    you get 633 SNPs Largest Chain and I get 634.

    SZ1 is so old that more or less we all get a chunk of it, Caio Giulio Cesare included (main ancient shared ancestry) I Think.


    ok....but i am only 68% and you are 96%


    my new #1 ........

    Copper Age Szigetszentmiklos Hungary 2350 BC I7043

    99%



    2 -Illyrian / Dalmatian 1600 BC I4331

    98%



    3 -
    Protovillanovia Martinsicuro 930 BC R1

    98%







    of the new "samnites" /Etruscans ...............I only match etruscan sample 003 and 007
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  2. #402
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    ok....but i am only 68% and you are 96%

    my new #1 ........

    Copper Age Szigetszentmiklos Hungary 2350 BC I7043

    99%

    2 -Illyrian / Dalmatian 1600 BC I4331

    98%

    3 -
    Protovillanovia Martinsicuro 930 BC R1

    98%

    of the new "samnites" /Etruscans ...............I only match etruscan sample 003 and 007
    Ven015 Ancient Venosa Samnite 400 BC
    … top 5 World Cup :)



    Taq003 Etruscan Tarquinii Italy 800 BC
    100% closer than other matching users

    🕷️

  3. #403
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    MTA’s Deep Dive





    Although don’t be a sample of this thread, the sample displayed below is intetesting too.


  4. #404
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Two new MTA deep dive:

    VEN016 - Ancient Venosa Samnite 400 BC
    ETR014 - Etruria Iron-Age Italy 1000 BC

    I’ll probably lose my # 1 status as users re-upload their Kits, … maybe :)





  5. #405
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    These are my top 4 current MTA deep dives (further down the ranking among these distant "relatives" are now also TAQ003, TAQ011, POP001, VEN013, VEN016, ETR013)







  6. #406
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    SZ1 (combined-Kit) Dodecad Globe 13 - Genotype ratio: 99.80%

    … vs the 82:



    Code:
    SZ1_Dod_Globe13,3.39,0.78,0.77,0.25,10.28,2.36,34.17,0.90,0.48,14.71,30.84,0.39,0.69
    SZ1 raw-data:
    https://www.mediafire.com/file/4qmte...o/sz1.zip/file

  7. #407
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    SZ1 (combined-Kit) Dodecad Globe 13 - Genotype ratio: 99.80%

    … vs the 82:



    Code:
    SZ1_Dod_Globe13,3.39,0.78,0.77,0.25,10.28,2.36,34.17,0.90,0.48,14.71,30.84,0.39,0.69
    SZ1 raw-data:
    https://www.mediafire.com/file/4qmte...o/sz1.zip/file

    Have you done the Heneti sample BRC003 .?................Heneti = Veneti ( wrongly labeled ) but the period is the indigenous Euganei people from the Eugaean colli ( hills )

  8. #408
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Have you done the Heneti sample BRC003 .?................Heneti = Veneti ( wrongly labeled ) but the period is the indigenous Euganei people from the Eugaean colli ( hills )



    GedM…
    BRC003 # QZ8281511


    … vs S :


    ... can't remember, ... just in case ... Credit to Jovialis :)

    Dodecad Globe 13:
    Code:
    BRC003_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.00,7.15,2.00,46.64,0.00,0.00,6.54,36.15,0.00,0.00
    Dodecad K12b:
    Code:
    BRC003_Dodecad_K12b,1.48,0.00,2.35,1.33,46.70,24.27,0.00,0.00,5.74,0.00,17.40,0.74
    … Bonus … new GedM… SZ1

    … vs S : 7.4 Generations:


  9. #409
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post


    GedM…
    BRC003 # QZ8281511


    … vs S :


    ... can't remember, ... just in case ... Credit to Jovialis :)

    Dodecad Globe 13:
    Code:
    BRC003_Dod_Globe13,0.00,0.00,1.53,0.00,7.15,2.00,46.64,0.00,0.00,6.54,36.15,0.00,0.00
    Dodecad K12b:
    Code:
    BRC003_Dodecad_K12b,1.48,0.00,2.35,1.33,46.70,24.27,0.00,0.00,5.74,0.00,17.40,0.74
    … Bonus … new GedM… SZ1

    … vs S : 7.4 Generations:


    thanks

    Kit QZ8281511

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Neolithic 48.47
    2 WHG 24.12
    3 EHG 16.87
    4 Basal 6.64
    5 African 1.79
    6 Oceanic 1.08
    7 SEA 0.55
    8 Iran-Mesolithic 0.48

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Maros_BA 6.8
    2 Vatya_MBA 7.16
    3 Germany_BA 7.9
    4 Germany_Bronze_Age 7.9
    5 Hungary_MBA 13.39
    6 Hungary_BA 16.81
    7 British_Celtic 21.9
    8 Swedish_LN 22.16
    9 British_IronAge 23.26
    10 Bell_Beaker_Germany 23.54
    11 Alberstedt_LN 23.94
    12 Halberstadt_LBA 25.21
    13 Nordic_BA 26.34
    14 Bell_Beaker_Czech 26.92
    15 Anatolia_Chalcolithic 26.97
    16 British_AngloSaxon 27.27
    17 Irish_LN 27.29
    18 Nordic_MN_B 27.85
    19 Nordic_LN 29.37
    20 Hungary_IronAge 29.42

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 50.6% Corded_Ware_Proto_Unetice_Poland + 49.4% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 1.93
    2 54.4% Nordic_MN_B + 45.6% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.14
    3 59.2% GermanStuttgart_LBK + 40.8% Baltic_LBA @ 2.22
    4 51.9% GermanStuttgart_LBK + 48.1% Corded_Ware_Estonia @ 2.27
    5 53.1% Nordic_LN + 46.9% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.52
    6 52.1% Unetice_EBA + 47.9% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.77
    7 55.3% Bell_Beaker_Czech + 44.7% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.84
    8 60.4% British_Celtic + 39.6% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.91
    9 55.3% GermanStuttgart_LBK + 44.7% Nordic_BA @ 2.91
    10 55% British_AngloSaxon + 45% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.94
    11 51.4% Hungary_CA + 48.6% Irish_BA @ 2.96
    12 88.8% Maros_BA + 11.2% Levant_N @ 2.97
    13 51.8% Nordic_IA + 48.2% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 2.98
    14 60.7% Hungary_CA + 39.3% Corded_Ware_Germany @ 2.99
    15 55.5% GermanStuttgart_LBK + 44.5% Poltavka_MBA_outlier @ 3.07
    16 51.8% Nordic_LBA + 48.2% GermanStuttgart_LBK @ 3.24
    17 50.6% Hungary_CA + 49.4% Nordic_BattleAxe @ 3.38
    18 55.1% GermanStuttgart_LBK + 44.9% Sintashta_MBA @ 3.41
    19 58.6% Hungary_CA + 41.4% Srubnaya_LBA @ 3.49
    20 59.7% Hungary_CA + 40.3% Corded_Ware_Germany @ 3.52

  10. #410
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    VET005 is my best match of any ancient sample so far on Dodecad K12b, but oddly it doesn't show up at all in MyTrueAncestry.

    VET stands for 'Etruscans from Vetluna'. Duarte posted his MTA results and VET003 dates from 600 BCE. Does anyone have the date for VET005?
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  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    VET005 is my best match of any ancient sample so far on Dodecad K12b, but oddly it doesn't show up at all in MyTrueAncestry.

    VET stands for 'Etruscans from Vetluna'. Duarte posted his MTA results and VET003 dates from 600 BCE. Does anyone have the date for VET005?
    At this time, there is still no information on what the labels mean or the dates of the samples. Most likely MTA once again simply made them up, copying what is written on the forums about the various labels. So some of the information in MTA about the samples may later turn out to be true and some may turn out to be false.

  12. #412
    Regular Member Salento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    VET005 is my best match of any ancient sample so far on Dodecad K12b, but oddly it doesn't show up at all in MyTrueAncestry.

    VET stands for 'Etruscans from Vetluna'. Duarte posted his MTA results and VET003 dates from 600 BCE. Does anyone have the date for VET005?
    fwiw … on MTA: VET005 - 600 BC - Etruscan Vatluna Twelve Cities

    VET005 Closest Ancient: Vascones - Saxons - Belgae - Celts - Picts


    VET005 Modern:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The purpose of Anthrogenica is to make all of classical antiquity, particularly Ancient Greeks, associated with Jews, I guess.

    Funny thing is that Jews of this time period would not even plot near Ashkenazi, because they didn't exist yet. They would plot close to the Near East.
    - Southern Italians are largely Greek transplants.
    - Imperial Romans were Magna Greacians with extra Middle Eastern ancestry.
    - Ashkenazi Jews have significant ancient Greek ancestry.
    - Laz people have absorved some non-negligible Greek ancestry too.
    Greek this, Greek that.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    - Southern Italians are largely Greek transplants.
    - Imperial Romans were Magna Greacians with extra Middle Eastern ancestry.
    - Ashkenazi Jews have significant ancient Greek ancestry.
    - Laz people have absorved some non-negligible Greek ancestry too.
    Greek this, Greek that.

    where did you get your information from ..............was it below link?

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajpa.23937

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    where did you get your information from ..............was it below link?

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajpa.23937
    I was being sarcastic.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Maciamo, among the many suppositions read in the forums, yours remain according to me the closest to the truth.

    At least one of these should be from southern Italy and should have at least a significant number of individuals, otherwise I don't see the point of using them.
    Obviously, the fact that samples have the same label does not mean that they have the same date or belong to the same era or the same ethnicity. Just as it should be reiterated that the starting samples will have been many more than these, these 82 will be the ones that could have been decently analyzed, and that there is clearly a causal factor as well. Even when they are really samples of Etruscan individuals they can belong to different periods (orientalizing, archaic, Hellenistic...). It seems clear to me that the abstract claims that there are no samples of Etruscan individuals of Villanovan age, that would have been the most useful instead.


    CSN, MAG, MAS, POP, VOL coud be from central (VOL) and southern Tuscany (CSN, MAG, MAS, POP). TAQ is most likely Tarquinia from northern Lazio. I think CSN can't be Cesena, Cesena is not considered part of Etruria and of course neither southern Italy. The territories of the Etruscans in northern Italy are conventionally called Etruria Padana but there is no mention in the abstract of the paper of samples from Etruria Padana. CSN is most likely a microtoponym in southern Tuscany composed of multiple words.

    CAM could be indeed Campiglia from Tuscany, good guess Maciamo, or a generic Campania region. But the former makes more sense than the latter. Instead CAM doesn't seem to match for example with places like Capua in Campania.

    ETR is Etruria in Roman Imperial period (the so called Regio VII Etruria that was merged with Regio VI Umbria around 300 AD).

    PRZ dunno. It could be one of the many microtoponyms scattered throughout Italy that begin with Poggio and are composed of multiple words.

    UDC_P dunno. Even this sounds like a toponym composed of multiple words.

    VEN dunno. It could Venturina but both for their results and for other reasons (the abstract) it is unlikely that also VEN is from Etruria.

    VET could be Vetulonia. Or see below.

    VEU in the case VET stands for something else, VEU could be Vetulonia as well. VEU doesn't seem to match Veio or Vulci.

    VOL, CAM, UDC, CSN, MAG, MAS, ETR, PRZ, VET, VEU, POP are all from Tuscany.

    TAQ = Tarquinia from Lazio.

    VEN is not from Etruria, likely from Campania.

    Outliers seem few. The Etruscans did not change genetically for almost 1000 years of their history, despite the low presence of foreigners. The modern Tuscans will have undergone some influences from the imperial era, but not from a single source, as will have happened to all Italians, but the Etruscans in a world-weighted PCA are still there, not so far away, certainly close to northern Italians and Tuscans rather than to other ethnicities. Compared to the Etruscans, considering the bulk of the clusters, the modern Tuscans are shifted primarily towards the Balkans, and only secondarily towards the Near East.

    For Tuscans they used TSI, which I remind again is based on at least 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany. Certainly many individuals will be 100% Tuscan, but not all likely are, and the gene flow over the last 100 years in Italy is mainly from south to north.





    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 24-09-21 at 14:02.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    VOL, CAM, UDC, CSN, MAG, MAS, ETR, PRZ, VET, VEU, POP are all from Tuscany.

    TAQ = Tarquinia from Lazio.

    VEN is not from Etruria, likely from Campania.

    Outliers seem few. The Etruscans did not change genetically for almost 1000 years of their history, despite the low presence of foreigners. The modern Tuscans will have undergone some influences from the imperial era, but not from a single source, as will have happened to all Italians, but the Etruscans in a world-weighted PCA are still there, not so far away, certainly close to northern Italians and Tuscans rather than to other ethnicities. Compared to the Etruscans, considering the bulk of the clusters, the modern Tuscans are shifted primarily towards the Balkans, and only secondarily towards the Near East.

    For Tuscans they used TSI, which I remind again is based on 3 out of 4 grandparents born in Tuscany. Certainly many individuals will be 100% Tuscan, but not all are, and the gene flow over the last 100 years in Italy is mainly from south to north.





    Is the PCA official? Is the paper out?
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  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Is the PCA official? Is the paper out?

    PCA is from a conference, so yes official. The paper not out yet.

  19. #419
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    Most Etruscans seem to have a pull towards Sardinia and Southwest Europe.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Most Etruscans seem to have a pull towards Sardinia and Southwest Europe.
    Higher percentages of WHG and EEF, confirming that the Eastern thesis is not true.

  21. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Higher percentages of WHG and EEF, confirming that the Eastern thesis is not true.
    +1

  22. #422
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    apparently the Etruscans were overwhelming R1b, and to a lesser extent G2a


  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    apparently the Etruscans were overwhelming R1b, and to a lesser extent G2a





    thanks
    where did you get this
    since this
    paper is not published yet ?
    or am i worng ?


    p.s
    me in post 145 in this thread

    Originally Posted by real expert
    Thanks kingjohn. Do you think there will be also lots of J2b?



    Could be
    i feal G2a
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

  24. #424
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    Is a Y-dna sample of just NINE between 0-1000CE reliable as against 27 before the Common Era?

  25. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks
    where did you get this
    since this
    paper is not published yet ?
    or am i worng ?
    From a conference, not published yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Is a Y-dna sample of just NINE between 0-1000CE reliable as against 27 before the Common Era?
    In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

    The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans. The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.

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