Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

[Vallicanus]

From a conference, not published yet.



In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans. The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.

The bolded part is important and the Y Dna and mtdna figures therein need to be compared to modern Tuscany and Northern Lazio.
After all to the south, Etruria originally ended at Veii, just north of the Tiber mouth.

[Juan.delajara]

From a conference, not published yet.



In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans. The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.

Thanks for the information. Do you have any information regarding Y HG J, are they only J2b, as we already know, or are there any J2a's as well?. Grazie mille

[Jovialis]

From a conference, not published yet.



In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans. The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.

Very intriguing, do you know if the VEN samples are from the Iron Age?

[Pax Augusta]

Very intriguing, do you know if the VEN samples are from the Iron Age?

Still unclear, it doesn't even seem to match the samples from the Campania study.

The bolded part is important and the Y Dna and mtdna figures therein need to be compared to modern Tuscany and Northern Lazio.
After all to the south, Etruria originally ended at Veii, just north of the Tiber mouth.

Indeed. Considering the changes due to Romanization though. I hope that very soon there will be Etruscan samples from Emilia-Romagna, and samples from the rest of northern Italy, the Raeti, Veneti, Golasecca culture, Ligurians... On how Bologna and surroundings have become Etruscan since early Villanovan I think there is no consensus yet (Settlers from Tuscany or Etruscan since the prehistory?). While the consensus for Campania is that the Etruscan presence in Campania was surely due to Villanovan/Etruscans settlers from northern Latium.


For the upcoming paper on Magna Graecia - Campania. The Villanovan/Etruscan samples are all from Campania here.

[Pax Augusta]

Thanks for the information. Do you have any information regarding Y HG J, are they only J2b, as we already know, or are there any J2a's as well?. Grazie mille

No, I don't know, sorry. I think publication should be forthcoming.

[kingjohn]

Still unclear, it doesn't even seem to match the samples from the Campania study.





Indeed. Considering the changes due to Romanization though. I hope that very soon there will be Etruscan samples from Emilia-Romagna, and samples from the rest of northern Italy, the Raeti, Veneti, Golasecca culture, Ligurians... On how Bologna and surroundings have become Etruscan since early Villanovan I think there is no consensus yet (Settlers from Tuscany or Etruscan since the prehistory?). While the consensus for Campania is that the Etruscan presence in Campania was surely due to Villanovan/Etruscans settlers from northern Latium.


For the upcoming paper on Magna Graecia - Campania. The Villanovan/Etruscan samples are all from Campania here.

so this from magna graecia paper
should be very cool thanks for sharing
if someone
will have a leak about there y haplogroups that would be cool

p.s
if the greek euboean site is only 1 person or 1 site
that reduce the chance to find e-v13
but maybe one of the italic would surprise us....

[Juan.delajara]

No, I don't know, sorry. I think publication should be forthcoming.

Grazie lo stesso.

[Angela]

I think we can lay to rest the idea that J2b was a founding lineage of the Etruscan=

Maciamo's chart shows 52.5 percent R1b in Tuscany. Combined J1 and J2 is 13.5%.

[Pax Augusta]

I think we can lay to rest the idea that J2b was a founding lineage of the Etruscan=

Maciamo's chart shows 52.5 percent R1b in Tuscany. Combined J1 and J2 is 13.5%.

This is the latest July 2021 chart from a non-academic Italian project.

[Riverman]

This is the latest July 2021 chart from a non-academic Italian project.

Interesting, for E-V13 this map alone is helpful to confirm that there seem to have been two to three centres, one in the North West, rather associated with Hallstatt, Ligurian and Lombards, the other in the very South East, associated with Greeks and Balkan people, including Albanians from rather recent times and possibly a third one Sicily even more associated with Greeks and Balkan people up to Roman times (?). Contrary to some other regions of the North, the association of R1a+I2 with E1b1b is not there in North Eastern Italy, but that is no such big suprise, considering that Slovenians have an exceptionally low amount as well and its mostly from the Slovenes that the Slavic and R1a in the North East might be coming from. On the other hand J2 might correlate with E1b1b, which might point to the clear Balkan, Greek and especially Illyrian association.
I1 and E1b1b have even in the North only a little bit of an overlap, but the most in Monza and less suprisingly Southern Tyrol. The Monza case might be pure chance, but it has a background of pile dwellings, Celtic Insumbres and Lombard settlement:

Berengar I of Italy (850�924) located his headquarters in Monza. A fortified castrum was constructed to resist the incursions of the Hungarians. Under Berengar's reign, Monza enjoyed a certain degree of independence: it had its own system of weights and measures, and could also seize property and mark the deeds with their signatures. Berengar was very generous evident by the donation of numerous works to the Monza Cathedral, including the famous cross, and by giving large benefits to its 32 canons and other churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monza

Less suprising is Genua as a centre of E-V13, like the Garibaldis.

[Archetype0ne]

I think we can lay to rest the idea that J2b was a founding lineage of the Etruscan=

Maciamo's chart shows 52.5 percent R1b in Tuscany. Combined J1 and J2 is 13.5%.

The thing is. It is a double edged sword.
We have the first confirmed Etrsucan from around 750BC L283, from that one 2019 paper.

The only sample of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup J-M12 (J2b-L283), found in an individual dated 700-600 BC
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7093155/

Now we have the Max Planck paper stating that the Etruscan R1b was of Steppe ancestry (just like L283, if cut by the same sword).

Now the conclusion, is the first cultural/philologic survival of a language despite inundation by alien yDNA. Meaning those G2a-s (if indeed Tyrhenian/Pelasgic/pre-IE) were the de facto original (proto)Etruscans.


But then... We know that Etruscans without the script and the orientalization period, would have been barely a blip in history, with no script or culture to show for it. So you can not have Etrsucans as just G2a, without the IE R1b/J2b, or without the finer culture Orientals.

This in my mind is the most objective perspective. Otherwise, our sword, is a butter knife that cuts just one way and that, barely.

[Shetop]

This is the latest July 2021 chart from a non-academic Italian project.

Thank you very much!
Could you tell us from which project are the maps?

[torzio]

I2 in sardinian is very strong

[ThirdTerm]

thanks
where did you get this
since this
paper is not published yet ?
or am i worng ?

The graphic is included in the supplementary section of this paper by Posth et al. (Fig. S5) as a complete form. Supplementary tables are missing from the section but it is worth reading through it.

https://www.science.org/action/downl...abi7673_SM.pdf

[Bgtrak]

I checked who is the most similar to Etruscans and I compared with some new samples from KapitanAndreevo from the latest dataset.
I can say these are almost between the Etruscans.

Here is the list of the individuals to verify:
TAQ001
TAQ024
TAQ017

TAQ005
TAQ015
TAQ018


BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA: "I20180"
BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA: "I20184" "I20183" "I20185" "I20181" "I20186" "I20182"

[Mmiikkii]

(I'll put 1 of the images through a link in order to save attachment storage)

https://images.app.goo.gl/CZrGsmU82egLHxWH9

IMG_20221201_232149.jpg


First of all I wanted to comment that I had never noticed that Sardinia is so shifted towards N. Europe in PCA1. It was already this way in the Nuragic period it seems.

But that changed a lot in Classical times.
We see Sardinian stops being an ethnicity and rather becomes a random collection of individuals from different parts of the world.

1 thing they have in common though, they're shifted towards MENA, which is clearly because of the Carthaginians.


Another observation is that the inhabitants of Rome (1-500CE) are OVERWHELMINGLY 1 of these 2 kinds:
1) People in the extreme southern cluster of modern Italians(the least European of the Italians, but Italians nonetheless).
Which seems to come from a combination of Iron Age Central Italian and these new incomers from the Eastern Empire(50%European, 50%Asian).

2)Or a mix of the previous and more M. Eastern(75%Asian/25%European).
I know because they appear in the exact middle. With few of them being M. Eastern per se.
This mix locates near Cretans, Cypriots and Askhenazi Jews in the PCA of
Caucasians.

With few of them, maybe 15%, being Latins or norther. With the minority being of Celtic, Germanic ancestry from inner in Europe.

[Jovialis]

^^Antonio et al. 2019 does a better job at decerning where these Imperial samples come from.



C6 spans Central Italy to Southern Italy, and has haplotypes similar to modern southern europeans.
C5 is basically Aegean and Anatolian immigrants, with haplotypes that match
C4 is Near eastern


As you can see from the chart, C6 expands in numbers after Rome was repopulated in the middle ages. Clearly from the chart, only C6 and C7 samples remain since then. However, a C6 sample was also among the Roman Republican era Prenestini, and C5 among Ardea.

[Palermo Trapani]

Consistent with what Jovialis reported in post #442 above, Central Italy (Lazio, Abruzzo) and Southern/Sicily distances (Dodecad12b) vs. Ancient Roman samples from Antonio et al 2019. They are all tied to the C6 Cluster identified by Antonio et al 2019 which they document in their paper.

Distance to:	Italian_Sicily
2.78197771	Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
2.95807370	Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
3.35068650	Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.35404234	Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.44389315	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.45991329	Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.51955963	Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
3.91168762	Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.94754354	Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.06757913	Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
4.07914207	Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.18017942	Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
4.54437014	Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
4.95930439	Mediterranean_C6:R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
5.05227671	Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.08254857	Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
5.33704975	Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.39782364	Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.80417953	Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
6.07088132	Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
6.10593154	Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
6.18016181	Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.19655549	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausol e_di_Augusto
6.37633123	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausol e_di_Augusto
6.51180467	Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

Distance to:	Italian_Lazio
2.67237722	Mediterranean_C6:R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
3.86821664	Mediterranean_C6:R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
3.87285424	Mediterranean_C6:R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
4.14229405	Mediterranean_C6:R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
4.18449519	Mediterranean_C6:R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
4.69270711	Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
5.18514224	Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.44693492	Mediterranean_C6:R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
5.45616165	Mediterranean_C6:R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
6.29753920	Mediterranean_C6:R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
6.39973437	Mediterranean_C6:R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
6.44978294	Mediterranean_C6:R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.51605709	Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.90972503	Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
7.21167803	Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
7.24332796	Mediterranean_C6:R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
7.35437965	Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
7.44902678	Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
7.45161727	Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
7.60505753	Mediterranean_C6:R113_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
8.32478829	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
8.44094189	Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
8.46505759	Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
8.51764052	Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
8.56834873	Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

Distance to:	Italian_Campania
1.58240324	Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
1.98408669	Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
2.05866462	Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
2.57621816	Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
2.75294388	Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
2.95387881	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.26229980	Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
3.51894871	Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.52026988	Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.65450407	Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
3.66642878	Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.70673711	Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
3.72603006	Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.75413106	Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.92661432	Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
3.93776586	Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
4.12047327	Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.25741706	Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
4.55702754	Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
4.78842354	Mediterranean_C6:R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
4.92595168	Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.80386940	Mediterranean_C6:R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
5.81080029	Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
5.89445502	Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
5.93387732	Mediterranean_C6:R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro

Distance to:	Italian_Calabria
2.88686681	Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
3.15065073	Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.26625167	Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.96643417	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausol e_di_Augusto
4.25658314	Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
4.33831765	Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
4.37842437	Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
4.58070955	Mediterranean_C6:R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
4.67814066	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R50_Imperial_Era_Centocel le_Necropolis
4.75823497	Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.93219018	Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.98567949	Mediterranean_C6:R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
5.08910601	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Pai siello_Necropolis
5.10659378	Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
5.26492165	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.35296180	Mediterranean_C6:R125_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolc e
5.46376244	Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.75696969	Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.79443699	Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
6.05614564	Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.28000796	Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
6.29918249	Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.32449207	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R133_Imperial_Era_Marcell ino_&_Pietro
6.64693162	Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
6.65391614	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R1548_Imperial_Era_Monter otondo

Distance to:	Italian_Apulia
2.56386427	Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
2.60829446	Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.44476414	Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
4.05111096	Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.40345319	Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.51826294	Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
4.67985042	Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.77307029	Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
4.80008333	Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.83547309	Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.94660490	Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.99966999	Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
5.13256271	Mediterranean_C6:R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
5.18126432	Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.25703338	Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
5.51678348	Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
5.54182280	Mediterranean_C6:R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
5.62731730	Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
5.63133199	Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.76332369	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.80950084	Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
6.28826685	Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
6.71796844	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Pai siello_Necropolis
6.91663936	Mediterranean_C6:R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
7.07757020	Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis

Distance to:	Italian_Abruzzo
1.58104396	Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
2.52731082	Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
2.89798206	Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.12312344	Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.30496596	Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
3.37182443	Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.40208759	Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.41650406	Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
3.57692605	Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
3.97689577	Mediterranean_C6:R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
4.09847533	Mediterranean_C6:R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
4.22335175	Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.38881533	Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.38937353	Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
4.43461385	Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.43644001	Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.74745195	Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
4.92633738	Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.09174823	Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
5.10255818	Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.27946967	Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
5.40747631	Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
5.47401133	Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
5.65828596	Mediterranean_C6:R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
5.67837125	Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina

[Mmiikkii]

As you can see from the chart, C6 expands in numbers after Rome was repopulated in the middle ages. Clearly from the chart, only C6 and C7 samples remain since then.

There's an interesting conclussion if we combine the 4% European for C7 of your picture and mine. C7 is likely to only describe the 4 Celtic/Germanic outliers in 'Imperial'.

There's no way that could include all that minority that clusters like today's Northeners and Tuscans(which is kind of arbitrary the classification).

But that being the case, that must mean that in the Middle Ages(maybe into the Renaissance), those "French and Germans" must reach 40% in the city of Rome(because C7 reaches 40%).
That's outstanding for C. Italy.

[Mmiikkii]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673
Also, in the last picture of this study, you can see how segregated were the Lombards/Ostrogoths with respect to the Roman people.

These in turn were still very S. Italian like, in continuity with the mass of samples that cluster at the edges of today's Italians.
But the other chunk that classifies as C5/C4 and approaches Asia, was gone by then.
Also "Tuscans" were a bit shifted to the South, though less so than in Rome.

[torzio]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673
Also, in the last picture of this study, you can see how segregated were the Lombards/Ostrogoths with respect to the Roman people.
These in turn were still very S. Italian like, in continuity with the mass of samples that cluster at the edges of today's Italians.
But the other chunk that classifies as C5/C4 and approaches Asia, was gone by then.
Also "Tuscans" were a bit shifted to the South, though less so than in Rome.

the paper has some flaws .............Venosa was never etruscan...it was Lucanian ( an off branch of the umbri )...it was then taken by the Samnites ( another off branch of the Umbri ) until it finally fell to the Romans in the 3rd Samnite-Roman war

Lombards and Ostrogoths came in AD times ..............by this time all of the italian peninsula was Roman..............by these times, we have no clue who was originally southern italian

[Salento]

... Standard Apulian, Salento_me, and modern Grecìa Salentina samples (… by A. Olivieri, A. Achilli, C. Capelli).

Top 10

Distance to:	Italian_Apulia
2.28256435	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
2.60829446	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
3.00006667	Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
3.86817787	VK537_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
3.93063608	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
3.99743668	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
4.27507895	TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
4.40345319	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R64:Antonio_2019
4.51826294	C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
4.64515877	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Salento_me
1.78504902	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
2.94149622	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
3.00324824	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
3.36447619	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
3.65926222	TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
4.05762246	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
4.09765787	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
4.14498492	Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
4.14907219	R1554_Urbino-Bivio_125calCE-220calCE
4.34772354	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R1290:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG37_Soleto_LE_Apulia
1.52725243	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
2.43737564	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
3.08580622	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
3.29422221	C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
3.46278789	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
3.50192804	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
3.77753888	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R64:Antonio_2019
3.89516367	C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
3.97737351	C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
3.97880635	C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG74_Zollino_LE_Apulia
3.05047537	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R970:Antonio_2019
3.30665995	Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
3.65569419	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
3.78931392	R1292_Cancelleria_500-1400_AD
4.02581669	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
4.16289563	C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019
4.18718282	TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
4.28601213	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
4.33970045	VEN006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
4.37669967	C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R121:An tonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG66_Zollino_LE_Apulia
3.76083767	VK534_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
5.20892503	R1554_Urbino-Bivio_125calCE-220calCE
5.48036495	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
5.57847649	ETR014:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
5.58591980	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
5.84524593	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
5.92783266	VK537_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
6.80316103	Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
6.85847651	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
7.12176944	C6-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R107:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG58_Martano_LE_Apulia
1.88082429	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
1.95882618	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R56:Antonio_2019
2.10499406	C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
2.40162445	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
2.76944038	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
2.96777695	C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R35:Antonio_2019
3.01555965	C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019
3.28656355	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
3.40074992	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
3.55261875	C5-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R122:An tonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG46_Martano_LE_Apulia
4.28233581	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
4.69185464	C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
4.81845411	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
5.25564458	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R64:Antonio_2019
5.49695370	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
5.66633038	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
5.69562990	Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
5.74605082	VEN015:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
5.81423254	C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
5.83657434	VEN016:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG28_Martano_LE_Apulia
2.17253308	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
2.80472815	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
2.89589364	C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
3.31538836	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
3.35806492	C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
3.56202190	C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
3.71480821	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
3.88082465	C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
3.97836650	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
4.37463141	C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG12_Soleto_LE_Apulia
3.55776615	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
3.84104153	ETR014:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
4.06730869	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
4.44665042	R1554_Urbino-Bivio_125calCE-220calCE
4.48795053	VK534_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
4.51631487	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
5.56909328	C6-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R107:Antonio_2019
5.69828044	VK537_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
5.90285524	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
5.92119076	TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG17_Soleto_LE_Apulia
3.72927607	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R52:Antonio_2019
3.75765885	C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R118:An tonio_2019
3.77001326	C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019
3.78905001	C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R131:Antoni o_2019
3.84350101	C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R117:An tonio_2019
3.90284512	Collegno121:Amorim_2018
4.14814416	R1225_Cancelleria_1480_AD
4.24662219	Szolad40:Amorim_2018
4.43377943	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R56:Antonio_2019
4.58554250	C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG20_Calimera_LE_Apulia
2.53970471	C6-Casale_del_Dolce_Imperial_Rome:R125:Antonio_2019
3.03023101	C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R51:Antonio_20 19
3.32170137	C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R39:Antonio_2 019
3.63751289	Collegno38:Amorim_2018
3.66353654	C5-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R133:Antonio_201 9
3.76350900	Collegno25:Amorim_2018
3.90748001	C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R137:Antonio_201 9
4.06811996	C5-Mausoleo_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R30:Antonio_201 9
4.41286755	C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R69:Antonio_2019
4.67183048	C5-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1548:Antonio_2019

Distance to:	Italian_South:PuG33_Sternatia_LE_Apulia
5.18527723	VK534_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
7.15105587	ETR014:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
7.33829681	C5-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R114:Antoni o_2019
7.67645100	Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019
7.71062254	C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R51:Antonio_20 19
7.82599514	C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R69:Antonio_2019
7.85943382	C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
7.89748061	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
7.97021330	C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
8.02249961	C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019

[Mmiikkii]

by these times, we have no clue who was originally southern italian

If you click in the study, you see an image with Early Bronze Age Sicily.
It's not a tight cluster, but seems to be a mix between Sardinian(or simply EEF) and a bit of North Africa(just a little bit) and also shows a shift towards the Near East.

It's unlikely however that that affects neccesarily continental s. Italy. Since they have been ruled by different people, different times(Greeks, Carthaginians).

I'll search for it but I'm sure I read somewhere that all of 'the boot' had Italic ancestry(only exception the islands).

[Wanderer]

(I'll put 1 of the images through a link in order to save attachment storage)

https://images.app.goo.gl/CZrGsmU82egLHxWH9

IMG_20221201_232149.jpg


First of all I wanted to comment that I had never noticed that Sardinia is so shifted towards N. Europe in PCA1. It was already this way in the Nuragic period it seems.

But that changed a lot in Classical times.
We see Sardinian stops being an ethnicity and rather becomes a random collection of individuals from different parts of the world.

1 thing they have in common though, they're shifted towards MENA, which is clearly because of the Carthaginians.


Another observation is that the inhabitants of Rome (1-500CE) are OVERWHELMINGLY 1 of these 2 kinds:
1) People in the extreme southern cluster of modern Italians(the least European of the Italians, but Italians nonetheless).
Which seems to come from a combination of Iron Age Central Italian and these new incomers from the Eastern Empire(50%European, 50%Asian).

2)Or a mix of the previous and more M. Eastern(75%Asian/25%European).
I know because they appear in the exact middle. With few of them being M. Eastern per se.
This mix locates near Cretans, Cypriots and Askhenazi Jews in the PCA of
Caucasians.

With few of them, maybe 15%, being Latins or norther. With the minority being of Celtic, Germanic ancestry from inner in Europe.

This sounds like baloney.
How the hell is ancient italian etruscan scoring half english?

[Francesco]

If you click in the study, you see an image with Early Bronze Age Sicily.
It's not a tight cluster, but seems to be a mix between Sardinian(or simply EEF) and a bit of North Africa(just a little bit) and also shows a shift towards the Near East.
It's unlikely however that that affects neccesarily continental s. Italy. Since they have been ruled by different people, different times(Greeks, Carthaginians).
I'll search for it but I'm sure I read somewhere that all of 'the boot' had Italic ancestry(only exception the islands).

It's literally just a shift towards the bronze age Aegean due to an increase of CHG admixture, there are at least two papers on the argument (Fernandes 2019 and Raveane 2022)