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Thread: Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

  1. #426
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    From a conference, not published yet.



    In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

    The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans.
    The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.

    The bolded part is important and the Y Dna and mtdna figures therein need to be compared to modern Tuscany and Northern Lazio.
    After all to the south, Etruria originally ended at Veii, just north of the Tiber mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    From a conference, not published yet.



    In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

    The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans. The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.

    Thanks for the information. Do you have any information regarding Y HG J, are they only J2b, as we already know, or are there any J2a's as well?. Grazie mille

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    From a conference, not published yet.



    In fact, they have few samples from the imperial age. There are many more from the Iron Age.

    The important part of the paper remains the one on the origins of the Etruscans. The one on the genetic legacy of the Etruscans seems the weakest.
    Very intriguing, do you know if the VEN samples are from the Iron Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Very intriguing, do you know if the VEN samples are from the Iron Age?

    Still unclear, it doesn't even seem to match the samples from the Campania study.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    The bolded part is important and the Y Dna and mtdna figures therein need to be compared to modern Tuscany and Northern Lazio.
    After all to the south, Etruria originally ended at Veii, just north of the Tiber mouth.

    Indeed. Considering the changes due to Romanization though. I hope that very soon there will be Etruscan samples from Emilia-Romagna, and samples from the rest of northern Italy, the Raeti, Veneti, Golasecca culture, Ligurians... On how Bologna and surroundings have become Etruscan since early Villanovan I think there is no consensus yet (Settlers from Tuscany or Etruscan since the prehistory?). While the consensus for Campania is that the Etruscan presence in Campania was surely due to Villanovan/Etruscans settlers from northern Latium.


    For the upcoming paper on Magna Graecia - Campania. The Villanovan/Etruscan samples are all from Campania here.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan.delajara View Post
    Thanks for the information. Do you have any information regarding Y HG J, are they only J2b, as we already know, or are there any J2a's as well?. Grazie mille
    No, I don't know, sorry. I think publication should be forthcoming.

  6. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Still unclear, it doesn't even seem to match the samples from the Campania study.





    Indeed. Considering the changes due to Romanization though. I hope that very soon there will be Etruscan samples from Emilia-Romagna, and samples from the rest of northern Italy, the Raeti, Veneti, Golasecca culture, Ligurians... On how Bologna and surroundings have become Etruscan since early Villanovan I think there is no consensus yet (Settlers from Tuscany or Etruscan since the prehistory?). While the consensus for Campania is that the Etruscan presence in Campania was surely due to Villanovan/Etruscans settlers from northern Latium.


    For the upcoming paper on Magna Graecia - Campania. The Villanovan/Etruscan samples are all from Campania here.





    so this from magna graecia paper
    should be very cool thanks for sharing
    if someone
    will have a leak about there y haplogroups that would be cool

    p.s
    if the greek euboean site is only 1 person or 1 site
    that reduce the chance to find e-v13
    but maybe one of the italic would surprise us....
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    e-fgc7391
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    No, I don't know, sorry. I think publication should be forthcoming.
    Grazie lo stesso.

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    I think we can lay to rest the idea that J2b was a founding lineage of the Etruscan=

    Maciamo's chart shows 52.5 percent R1b in Tuscany. Combined J1 and J2 is 13.5%.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think we can lay to rest the idea that J2b was a founding lineage of the Etruscan=

    Maciamo's chart shows 52.5 percent R1b in Tuscany. Combined J1 and J2 is 13.5%.
    This is the latest July 2021 chart from a non-academic Italian project.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    This is the latest July 2021 chart from a non-academic Italian project.

    Interesting, for E-V13 this map alone is helpful to confirm that there seem to have been two to three centres, one in the North West, rather associated with Hallstatt, Ligurian and Lombards, the other in the very South East, associated with Greeks and Balkan people, including Albanians from rather recent times and possibly a third one Sicily even more associated with Greeks and Balkan people up to Roman times (?). Contrary to some other regions of the North, the association of R1a+I2 with E1b1b is not there in North Eastern Italy, but that is no such big suprise, considering that Slovenians have an exceptionally low amount as well and its mostly from the Slovenes that the Slavic and R1a in the North East might be coming from. On the other hand J2 might correlate with E1b1b, which might point to the clear Balkan, Greek and especially Illyrian association.
    I1 and E1b1b have even in the North only a little bit of an overlap, but the most in Monza and less suprisingly Southern Tyrol. The Monza case might be pure chance, but it has a background of pile dwellings, Celtic Insumbres and Lombard settlement:
    Berengar I of Italy (850924) located his headquarters in Monza. A fortified castrum was constructed to resist the incursions of the Hungarians. Under Berengar's reign, Monza enjoyed a certain degree of independence: it had its own system of weights and measures, and could also seize property and mark the deeds with their signatures. Berengar was very generous evident by the donation of numerous works to the Monza Cathedral, including the famous cross, and by giving large benefits to its 32 canons and other churches.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monza

    Less suprising is Genua as a centre of E-V13, like the Garibaldis.

  11. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think we can lay to rest the idea that J2b was a founding lineage of the Etruscan=

    Maciamo's chart shows 52.5 percent R1b in Tuscany. Combined J1 and J2 is 13.5%.
    The thing is. It is a double edged sword.
    We have the first confirmed Etrsucan from around 750BC L283, from that one 2019 paper.

    The only sample of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup J-M12 (J2b-L283), found in an individual dated 700-600 BC
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7093155/

    Now we have the Max Planck paper stating that the Etruscan R1b was of Steppe ancestry (just like L283, if cut by the same sword).

    Now the conclusion, is the first cultural/philologic survival of a language despite inundation by alien yDNA. Meaning those G2a-s (if indeed Tyrhenian/Pelasgic/pre-IE) were the de facto original (proto)Etruscans.


    But then... We know that Etruscans without the script and the orientalization period, would have been barely a blip in history, with no script or culture to show for it. So you can not have Etrsucans as just G2a, without the IE R1b/J2b, or without the finer culture Orientals.

    This in my mind is the most objective perspective. Otherwise, our sword, is a butter knife that cuts just one way and that, barely.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    This is the latest July 2021 chart from a non-academic Italian project.
    Thank you very much!
    Could you tell us from which project are the maps?

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    I2 in sardinian is very strong
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks
    where did you get this
    since this
    paper is not published yet ?
    or am i worng ?
    The graphic is included in the supplementary section of this paper by Posth et al. (Fig. S5) as a complete form. Supplementary tables are missing from the section but it is worth reading through it.

    https://www.science.org/action/downl...abi7673_SM.pdf
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    I checked who is the most similar to Etruscans and I compared with some new samples from KapitanAndreevo from the latest dataset.
    I can say these are almost between the Etruscans.

    Here is the list of the individuals to verify:
    TAQ001
    TAQ024
    TAQ017

    TAQ005
    TAQ015
    TAQ018


    BGR_KapitanAndreevo_EMBA: "I20180"
    BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA: "I20184" "I20183" "I20185" "I20181" "I20186" "I20182"

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    Sardinians and Imperial Romans

    (I'll put 1 of the images through a link in order to save attachment storage)

    https://images.app.goo.gl/CZrGsmU82egLHxWH9

    IMG_20221201_232149.jpg


    First of all I wanted to comment that I had never noticed that Sardinia is so shifted towards N. Europe in PCA1. It was already this way in the Nuragic period it seems.

    But that changed a lot in Classical times.
    We see Sardinian stops being an ethnicity and rather becomes a random collection of individuals from different parts of the world.

    1 thing they have in common though, they're shifted towards MENA, which is clearly because of the Carthaginians.


    Another observation is that the inhabitants of Rome (1-500CE) are OVERWHELMINGLY 1 of these 2 kinds:
    1) People in the extreme southern cluster of modern Italians(the least European of the Italians, but Italians nonetheless).
    Which seems to come from a combination of Iron Age Central Italian and these new incomers from the Eastern Empire(50%European, 50%Asian).

    2)Or a mix of the previous and more M. Eastern(75%Asian/25%European).
    I know because they appear in the exact middle. With few of them being M. Eastern per se.
    This mix locates near Cretans, Cypriots and Askhenazi Jews in the PCA of
    Caucasians.

    With few of them, maybe 15%, being Latins or norther. With the minority being of Celtic, Germanic ancestry from inner in Europe.

  17. #442
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Antonio et al. 2019 does a better job at decerning where these Imperial samples come from.



    C6 spans Central Italy to Southern Italy, and has haplotypes similar to modern southern europeans.
    C5 is basically Aegean and Anatolian immigrants, with haplotypes that match
    C4 is Near eastern


    As you can see from the chart, C6 expands in numbers after Rome was repopulated in the middle ages. Clearly from the chart, only C6 and C7 samples remain since then. However, a C6 sample was also among the Roman Republican era Prenestini, and C5 among Ardea.

  18. #443
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Consistent with what Jovialis reported in post #442 above, Central Italy (Lazio, Abruzzo) and Southern/Sicily distances (Dodecad12b) vs. Ancient Roman samples from Antonio et al 2019. They are all tied to the C6 Cluster identified by Antonio et al 2019 which they document in their paper.

    Distance to: Italian_Sicily
    2.78197771 Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    2.95807370 Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
    3.35068650 Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.35404234 Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.44389315 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    3.45991329 Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.51955963 Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    3.91168762 Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.94754354 Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.06757913 Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
    4.07914207 Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.18017942 Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    4.54437014 Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
    4.95930439 Mediterranean_C6:R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    5.05227671 Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.08254857 Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.33704975 Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.39782364 Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.80417953 Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    6.07088132 Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    6.10593154 Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    6.18016181 Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.19655549 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    6.37633123 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    6.51180467 Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

    Distance to: Italian_Lazio
    2.67237722 Mediterranean_C6:R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    3.86821664 Mediterranean_C6:R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    3.87285424 Mediterranean_C6:R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    4.14229405 Mediterranean_C6:R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    4.18449519 Mediterranean_C6:R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    4.69270711 Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    5.18514224 Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.44693492 Mediterranean_C6:R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    5.45616165 Mediterranean_C6:R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    6.29753920 Mediterranean_C6:R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
    6.39973437 Mediterranean_C6:R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    6.44978294 Mediterranean_C6:R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.51605709 Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.90972503 Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    7.21167803 Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    7.24332796 Mediterranean_C6:R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    7.35437965 Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.44902678 Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    7.45161727 Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.60505753 Mediterranean_C6:R113_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    8.32478829 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    8.44094189 Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    8.46505759 Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    8.51764052 Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    8.56834873 Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna

    Distance to: Italian_Campania
    1.58240324 Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    1.98408669 Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.05866462 Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    2.57621816 Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.75294388 Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    2.95387881 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    3.26229980 Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    3.51894871 Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.52026988 Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.65450407 Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
    3.66642878 Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.70673711 Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    3.72603006 Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.75413106 Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.92661432 Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
    3.93776586 Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
    4.12047327 Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.25741706 Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    4.55702754 Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    4.78842354 Mediterranean_C6:R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    4.92595168 Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.80386940 Mediterranean_C6:R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    5.81080029 Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    5.89445502 Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    5.93387732 Mediterranean_C6:R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro

    Distance to: Italian_Calabria
    2.88686681 Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
    3.15065073 Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.26625167 Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.96643417 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausol e_di_Augusto
    4.25658314 Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
    4.33831765 Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    4.37842437 Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
    4.58070955 Mediterranean_C6:R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
    4.67814066 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R50_Imperial_Era_Centocel le_Necropolis
    4.75823497 Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.93219018 Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.98567949 Mediterranean_C6:R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    5.08910601 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Pai siello_Necropolis
    5.10659378 Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    5.26492165 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.35296180 Mediterranean_C6:R125_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolc e
    5.46376244 Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.75696969 Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.79443699 Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    6.05614564 Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.28000796 Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    6.29918249 Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.32449207 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R133_Imperial_Era_Marcell ino_&_Pietro
    6.64693162 Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    6.65391614 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R1548_Imperial_Era_Monter otondo

    Distance to: Italian_Apulia
    2.56386427 Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.60829446 Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.44476414 Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    4.05111096 Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.40345319 Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.51826294 Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
    4.67985042 Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.77307029 Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    4.80008333 Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.83547309 Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.94660490 Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.99966999 Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
    5.13256271 Mediterranean_C6:R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.18126432 Mediterranean_C6:R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.25703338 Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
    5.51678348 Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    5.54182280 Mediterranean_C6:R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    5.62731730 Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    5.63133199 Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.76332369 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.80950084 Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    6.28826685 Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    6.71796844 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Pai siello_Necropolis
    6.91663936 Mediterranean_C6:R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    7.07757020 Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis

    Distance to: Italian_Abruzzo
    1.58104396 Mediterranean_C6:R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    2.52731082 Mediterranean_C6:R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    2.89798206 Mediterranean_C6:R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.12312344 Mediterranean_C6:R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.30496596 Mediterranean_C6:R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    3.37182443 Mediterranean_C6:R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    3.40208759 Eastern_Mediterranean_C5:R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Erc olano_Necropolis_Ostia
    3.41650406 Mediterranean_C6:R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necro polis
    3.57692605 Mediterranean_C6:R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marc he
    3.97689577 Mediterranean_C6:R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    4.09847533 Mediterranean_C6:R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    4.22335175 Mediterranean_C6:R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.38881533 Mediterranean_C6:R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.38937353 Mediterranean_C6:R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    4.43461385 Mediterranean_C6:R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.43644001 Mediterranean_C6:R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    4.74745195 Mediterranean_C6:R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_N ecropolis
    4.92633738 Mediterranean_C6:R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.09174823 Mediterranean_C6:R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Ne cropolis_Ostia
    5.10255818 Mediterranean_C6:R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.27946967 Mediterranean_C6:R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_ Monte_Agnese
    5.40747631 Mediterranean_C6:R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pi etro
    5.47401133 Mediterranean_C6:R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    5.65828596 Mediterranean_C6:R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_ Cianti
    5.67837125 Mediterranean_C6:R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina

  19. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    As you can see from the chart, C6 expands in numbers after Rome was repopulated in the middle ages. Clearly from the chart, only C6 and C7 samples remain since then.
    There's an interesting conclussion if we combine the 4% European for C7 of your picture and mine. C7 is likely to only describe the 4 Celtic/Germanic outliers in 'Imperial'.

    There's no way that could include all that minority that clusters like today's Northeners and Tuscans(which is kind of arbitrary the classification).

    But that being the case, that must mean that in the Middle Ages(maybe into the Renaissance), those "French and Germans" must reach 40% in the city of Rome(because C7 reaches 40%).
    That's outstanding for C. Italy.

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    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673
    Also, in the last picture of this study, you can see how segregated were the Lombards/Ostrogoths with respect to the Roman people.

    These in turn were still very S. Italian like, in continuity with the mass of samples that cluster at the edges of today's Italians.
    But the other chunk that classifies as C5/C4 and approaches Asia, was gone by then.
    Also "Tuscans" were a bit shifted to the South, though less so than in Rome.

  21. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673
    Also, in the last picture of this study, you can see how segregated were the Lombards/Ostrogoths with respect to the Roman people.
    These in turn were still very S. Italian like, in continuity with the mass of samples that cluster at the edges of today's Italians.
    But the other chunk that classifies as C5/C4 and approaches Asia, was gone by then.
    Also "Tuscans" were a bit shifted to the South, though less so than in Rome.

    the paper has some flaws .............Venosa was never etruscan...it was Lucanian ( an off branch of the umbri )...it was then taken by the Samnites ( another off branch of the Umbri ) until it finally fell to the Romans in the 3rd Samnite-Roman war

    Lombards and Ostrogoths came in AD times ..............by this time all of the italian peninsula was Roman..............by these times, we have no clue who was originally southern italian

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ... Standard Apulian, Salento_me, and modern Grecìa Salentina samples (… by A. Olivieri, A. Achilli, C. Capelli).

    Top 10

    Distance to: Italian_Apulia
    2.28256435 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    2.60829446 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
    3.00006667 Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
    3.86817787 VK537_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
    3.93063608 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    3.99743668 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
    4.27507895 TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.40345319 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R64:Antonio_2019
    4.51826294 C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
    4.64515877 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Salento_me
    1.78504902 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    2.94149622 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    3.00324824 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
    3.36447619 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
    3.65926222 TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.05762246 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
    4.09765787 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    4.14498492 Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
    4.14907219 R1554_Urbino-Bivio_125calCE-220calCE
    4.34772354 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R1290:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG37_Soleto_LE_Apulia
    1.52725243 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    2.43737564 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
    3.08580622 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
    3.29422221 C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
    3.46278789 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    3.50192804 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    3.77753888 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R64:Antonio_2019
    3.89516367 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
    3.97737351 C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
    3.97880635 C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG74_Zollino_LE_Apulia
    3.05047537 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R970:Antonio_2019
    3.30665995 Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
    3.65569419 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    3.78931392 R1292_Cancelleria_500-1400_AD
    4.02581669 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
    4.16289563 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019
    4.18718282 TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.28601213 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    4.33970045 VEN006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.37669967 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R121:An tonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG66_Zollino_LE_Apulia
    3.76083767 VK534_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
    5.20892503 R1554_Urbino-Bivio_125calCE-220calCE
    5.48036495 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
    5.57847649 ETR014:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    5.58591980 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    5.84524593 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    5.92783266 VK537_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
    6.80316103 Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
    6.85847651 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
    7.12176944 C6-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R107:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG58_Martano_LE_Apulia
    1.88082429 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
    1.95882618 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R56:Antonio_2019
    2.10499406 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
    2.40162445 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    2.76944038 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    2.96777695 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R35:Antonio_2019
    3.01555965 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019
    3.28656355 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
    3.40074992 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
    3.55261875 C5-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R122:An tonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG46_Martano_LE_Apulia
    4.28233581 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R54:Antonio_2019
    4.69185464 C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
    4.81845411 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    5.25564458 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R64:Antonio_2019
    5.49695370 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    5.66633038 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
    5.69562990 Crusader_Pit:SI53:Haber_2019
    5.74605082 VEN015:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    5.81423254 C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
    5.83657434 VEN016:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG28_Martano_LE_Apulia
    2.17253308 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
    2.80472815 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R65:Antonio_2019
    2.89589364 C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
    3.31538836 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    3.35806492 C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
    3.56202190 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R49:Antonio_20 19
    3.71480821 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R973:Antonio_2019
    3.88082465 C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
    3.97836650 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    4.37463141 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG12_Soleto_LE_Apulia
    3.55776615 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    3.84104153 ETR014:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.06730869 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R59:Antonio_2019
    4.44665042 R1554_Urbino-Bivio_125calCE-220calCE
    4.48795053 VK534_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
    4.51631487 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R57:Antonio_2019
    5.56909328 C6-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R107:Antonio_2019
    5.69828044 VK537_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
    5.90285524 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R60:Antonio_2019
    5.92119076 TAQ003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG17_Soleto_LE_Apulia
    3.72927607 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R52:Antonio_2019
    3.75765885 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R118:An tonio_2019
    3.77001326 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019
    3.78905001 C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R131:Antoni o_2019
    3.84350101 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R117:An tonio_2019
    3.90284512 Collegno121:Amorim_2018
    4.14814416 R1225_Cancelleria_1480_AD
    4.24662219 Szolad40:Amorim_2018
    4.43377943 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R56:Antonio_2019
    4.58554250 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R836:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG20_Calimera_LE_Apulia
    2.53970471 C6-Casale_del_Dolce_Imperial_Rome:R125:Antonio_2019
    3.03023101 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R51:Antonio_20 19
    3.32170137 C5-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R39:Antonio_2 019
    3.63751289 Collegno38:Amorim_2018
    3.66353654 C5-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R133:Antonio_201 9
    3.76350900 Collegno25:Amorim_2018
    3.90748001 C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R137:Antonio_201 9
    4.06811996 C5-Mausoleo_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R30:Antonio_201 9
    4.41286755 C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R69:Antonio_2019
    4.67183048 C5-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1548:Antonio_2019

    Distance to: Italian_South:PuG33_Sternatia_LE_Apulia
    5.18527723 VK534_Foggia_Puglia_Italy
    7.15105587 ETR014:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    7.33829681 C5-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R114:Antoni o_2019
    7.67645100 Latini_o:R850:Antonio_2019
    7.71062254 C6-Centocelle_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R51:Antonio_20 19
    7.82599514 C5-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R69:Antonio_2019
    7.85943382 C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
    7.89748061 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R53:Antonio_2019
    7.97021330 C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
    8.02249961 C6-Villa_Magna_MA:R58:Antonio_2019
    Last edited by Salento; 02-12-22 at 08:57. Reason: spelling

  23. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    by these times, we have no clue who was originally southern italian
    If you click in the study, you see an image with Early Bronze Age Sicily.
    It's not a tight cluster, but seems to be a mix between Sardinian(or simply EEF) and a bit of North Africa(just a little bit) and also shows a shift towards the Near East.

    It's unlikely however that that affects neccesarily continental s. Italy. Since they have been ruled by different people, different times(Greeks, Carthaginians).

    I'll search for it but I'm sure I read somewhere that all of 'the boot' had Italic ancestry(only exception the islands).

  24. #449
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    (I'll put 1 of the images through a link in order to save attachment storage)

    https://images.app.goo.gl/CZrGsmU82egLHxWH9

    IMG_20221201_232149.jpg


    First of all I wanted to comment that I had never noticed that Sardinia is so shifted towards N. Europe in PCA1. It was already this way in the Nuragic period it seems.

    But that changed a lot in Classical times.
    We see Sardinian stops being an ethnicity and rather becomes a random collection of individuals from different parts of the world.

    1 thing they have in common though, they're shifted towards MENA, which is clearly because of the Carthaginians.


    Another observation is that the inhabitants of Rome (1-500CE) are OVERWHELMINGLY 1 of these 2 kinds:
    1) People in the extreme southern cluster of modern Italians(the least European of the Italians, but Italians nonetheless).
    Which seems to come from a combination of Iron Age Central Italian and these new incomers from the Eastern Empire(50%European, 50%Asian).

    2)Or a mix of the previous and more M. Eastern(75%Asian/25%European).
    I know because they appear in the exact middle. With few of them being M. Eastern per se.
    This mix locates near Cretans, Cypriots and Askhenazi Jews in the PCA of
    Caucasians.

    With few of them, maybe 15%, being Latins or norther. With the minority being of Celtic, Germanic ancestry from inner in Europe.
    This sounds like baloney.
    How the hell is ancient italian etruscan scoring half english?

  25. #450
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    If you click in the study, you see an image with Early Bronze Age Sicily.
    It's not a tight cluster, but seems to be a mix between Sardinian(or simply EEF) and a bit of North Africa(just a little bit) and also shows a shift towards the Near East.
    It's unlikely however that that affects neccesarily continental s. Italy. Since they have been ruled by different people, different times(Greeks, Carthaginians).
    I'll search for it but I'm sure I read somewhere that all of 'the boot' had Italic ancestry(only exception the islands).
    It's literally just a shift towards the bronze age Aegean due to an increase of CHG admixture, there are at least two papers on the argument (Fernandes 2019 and Raveane 2022)

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