Genetic study Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

[Duarte]

GedM… VOL001 # XY8696756

… I tested the VOL001 file with MTA:

Nice Salento

I take this sample in Deep Dive

 

[Angela]

Thanks so much, Jovialis. My father would be so happy.

My K1b results using my coordinates from Dodecadś project participant page:

Distance to:	MyK12bAngela
5.99228671	MAS001
8.20780726	ETR007
9.23015168	CSN005
10.93490283	CSN009
12.92072753	VET001
12.93179029	CAM002
13.07593591	TAQ022
13.10074425	ETR003
13.26339700	TAQ009
13.31483008	CSN008
13.31641844	TAQ011
13.42518156	CSN010
13.63582781	POP001
14.05850632	TAQ020
14.36174084	TAQ006
14.78497886	VOL001
14.90071810	CSN002
15.35351426	MAS004
15.66113661	VEN008
16.06000000	CSN006
16.27143202	VEN017
16.29441929	VEN001
16.63951622	ETR010
16.71727849	CSN013
16.83423892	CSN001

If MAS is Massa (Province of Massa Carrara), it makes sense it would be the closest as that is the province of my birth, although further inland on the Magra.

In the 2 way match, itś mostly MAS, with smaller percentages of one of the CAM samples.

Global 13

Distance to:	Angela
5.81056796	MAS001
6.90753212	ETR007
7.24960689	CSN005
9.68648027	CSN010
10.38310647	VET001
11.50081736	TAQ011
11.53707069	CSN009
11.79665207	VEN008
11.81375046	CAM002
12.15654967	VOL001
12.29536905	TAQ022
12.34735194	CSN013
12.56959824	CSN006
12.87200062	TAQ009
12.91685720	TAQ006
12.98529553	CSN008
13.03501055	VEN010
13.04342746	VEN009
13.06786899	TAQ016
13.25040377	ETR003
13.28910456	TAQ015
13.33354042	POP001
13.58520887	TAQ013
13.70455034	TAQ002
13.88439412	CAM001

Target: Angela Distance: 1.8522% / 1.85218365 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.1	ETR007
25.8	MAS001
23.1	CSN005
11.4	CAM002
5.6	CSN010

However, my closest ancient sample, at 3.4, is still the Piemontese medieval sample found near Collegno and included in the paper on the Lombards.

Btw, Iḿ getting a remarkably close match from my true ancestry to an Early Helladic sample from Greece. Are they making that stuff up too?

 

[Hawk]

Yes, looks promising. But I do wonder about the content of the paper, because obviously there should have been earlier shifts, latest with the MBA-LBA and Mycenaeans, rather than the LBA-EIA. What we really need is the archaeological context and the haplogroups. I'm still somewhat sceptical though, because one of the big issues with the Urnfielders is, well, that they cremated and were buried in urns. Not ideal for doing an ancient DNA analysis. Also, anything before 1.200 BC might be too early and the common definition for Greece seems to be:



https://www.worldhistory.org/Mycenaean_Civilization/

So that's indeed about Mycenaeans I guess.

Makes sense, so Myceneans came no earlier to Greece than 1600-1500 b.c. Interesting.

 

[kingjohn]

Indeed. Thanks for sharing, there is also this
The Punic Mediterranean - a new ancient DNA perspective
Content:
Towards the end of the 6th century BCE, the former colony Carthage in present-day Tunisia emerged as a hegemonial power in the Western Mediterranean. While keeping the Phoenician language as well as many aspects of cultural practices, a new set of "Punic" customs spread rapidly from the Northwest African coast throughout the Western Mediterranean, including coastal sites in Iberia, Ibiza, Sicily and Sardinia. In this study we produced novel ancient DNA evidence from human remains buried in Western Mediterranean Punic necropoli. So far, ancient DNA data from Punic sites has been sporadic, and here we generated genome-wide ancient DNA as well as new Radio Carbon dates to fill this gap. Together, this new data allowed us to probe whether cultural links to North Africa are also accompanied by North African genetic ancestry. Moreover, we studied putative genetic connections to the Levant and Aegan. Finally, we investigated the complex interaction with local populations.
https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa2021/repository/preview.php?Abstract=2185

Wow
Can't wait hope to see some e-m81
In punic colonies in sardinia , sicily..
I dont think all the e-m81 in sardinia and sicily in modern day is from sarcesans

P.s
So it will be a flood of interesting paper
Thats great:cool-v:

 

[Pax Augusta]

Thanks so much, Jovialis. My father would be so happy.

My K1b results using my coordinates from Dodecadś project participant page:

Distance to:	MyK12bAngela
5.99228671	MAS001
8.20780726	ETR007
9.23015168	CSN005
10.93490283	CSN009
12.92072753	VET001
12.93179029	CAM002
13.07593591	TAQ022
13.10074425	ETR003
13.26339700	TAQ009
13.31483008	CSN008
13.31641844	TAQ011
13.42518156	CSN010
13.63582781	POP001
14.05850632	TAQ020
14.36174084	TAQ006
14.78497886	VOL001
14.90071810	CSN002
15.35351426	MAS004
15.66113661	VEN008
16.06000000	CSN006
16.27143202	VEN017
16.29441929	VEN001
16.63951622	ETR010
16.71727849	CSN013
16.83423892	CSN001

If MAS is Massa (Province of Massa Carrara), it makes sense it would be the closest as that is the province of my birth, although further inland on the Magra.

In the 2 way match, itś mostly MAS, with smaller percentages of one of the CAM samples.

More likely Massa Marittima or Marsiliana in the province of Grosseto, southern Tuscany.

 

[Angela]

More likely Massa Marittima or Marsiliana in the province of Grosseto, southern Tuscany.

Thatś fine too. Despite the fact that all of his ancestry came from the Apennines in Emilia, he considered himself a Tuscan and a Ligurian, and most importantly, a descendant of the Latins and the Etruscans. He´d be over the moon to know it turned out to be true to a large degree.

 

[kingjohn]

Thatś fine too. Despite the fact that all of his ancestry came from the Apennines in Emilia, he considered himself a Tuscan and a Ligurian, and most importantly, a descendant of the Latins and the Etruscans. He´d be over the moon to know it turned out to be true to a large degree.

angela can we
say officlaily herodotus was wrong ?
and etruscan don't trace there origins to immigrants from anatolia specifically lydia

 

[Pax Augusta]

angela can we
say officlaily herodotus was wrong ?
and etruscan don't trace there origins to immigrants from anatolia specifically lydia

This has already been said many years ago by archaeologists, that there was no evidence to support a Lydian origin of the Etruscans, but for unclear reasons outside of specialised studies it has continued to speak of a theory that is no longer taken seriously by etruscology since many years.

Thatś fine too. Despite the fact that all of his ancestry came from the Apennines in Emilia, he considered himself a Tuscan and a Ligurian, and most importantly, a descendant of the Latins and the Etruscans. He´d be over the moon to know it turned out to be true to a large degree.

It's actually not that strange.

Speaking in general, the Etruscans were in massive presence in western Emilia up to southern Lombardy, they didn't really disappear after the arrival of the Gauls around 400 BC you can see it from the graves. Etruscans without doubt were also present in the Ligurian world as well as Ligurians in the Etruscan one. So it is very possible that your father has among his ancestors Ligurians, Etruscans, Latins...

 

[Riverman]

Makes sense, so Myceneans came no earlier to Greece than 1600-1500 b.c. Interesting.

That was always my bet, that they came with chariots and new horsebreeds, influenced by the Sintashta-Iranians culturally. Most of these conquests and expansions of the earlier periods being connected by some kind of cultural shift and innovation taking place. Just like new metallurgical techniques (Naue swords and iron weapons) were instrumental for Urnfielders, including the Channelled Ware groups, connected to the Bronze Age collapse and the overtaking of Dorians within a lot of Greek regions.

 

[Duarte]

A curiosity using different data target - Globe 13

Duarte1 - MyHeritage or FTDNA (standard ethnicity kits)
Duarte2 - MyHeritage Health and Care (lower coverage of SNPs related to ethnicity and higher coverage of SNPs related to hereditary traits)
Duarte3 - Combo Kit (MyHeritage/FTDNA + MyHeritageHealth&Care)

Globe 13

Distance to:	Duarte3
6.41889399	VOL001
6.53616095	VET001
6.63435001	CSN013
6.78457810	CSN006
6.81782957	TAQ015
6.93881114	TAQ016
7.11281941	TAQ008
7.27219362	ETR005
7.27341735	TAQ002
7.42567169	TAQ013
7.46790466	TAQ004
7.69699292	PRZ001
7.70831369	TAQ001
7.70907906	CSN009
7.97263445	CAM001
8.00122491	CSN001
8.05093162	TAQ006
8.19926216	VEU001
8.33363666	TAQ018
8.36367742	CSN003
8.48399670	CAM003
8.51741745	CSN010
8.55375356	TAQ024
8.63536913	VET003_4
8.71873844	TAQ017

---

Distance to:	Duarte2
7.11523014	VOL001
7.33978883	CSN010
7.48911877	VET001
7.88628556	TAQ002
7.93573563	CSN013
7.98440981	TAQ016
7.99661804	TAQ004
8.00058123	TAQ008
8.00884511	CSN006
8.07916456	TAQ015
8.20894634	PRZ001
8.43333860	CAM001
8.50301711	TAQ013
8.52072767	CSN009
8.56320034	TAQ001
8.75379918	PRZ002
8.91038159	ETR005
8.96763068	CSN005
9.00017222	CAM003
9.07093159	CSN003
9.14476353	CSN001
9.29287899	VEU001
9.31362443	TAQ006
9.47892926	VET003_4
9.54571108	TAQ018

---

Distance to:	Duarte1
6.43488928	VOL001
6.53726242	VET001
6.64021084	CSN013
6.83216657	CSN006
6.90102891	TAQ015
6.98184073	TAQ016
7.12718738	TAQ008
7.29214646	TAQ002
7.39928375	ETR005
7.48193825	TAQ004
7.49626574	TAQ013
7.65470444	CSN009
7.73500485	PRZ001
7.75909144	TAQ001
8.00181854	CAM001
8.07001239	TAQ006
8.07222398	CSN001
8.29057899	VEU001
8.39598714	CSN010
8.43434052	CSN003
8.43639141	TAQ018
8.51404722	CAM003
8.63736650	TAQ024
8.72126138	VET003_4
8.81017593	TAQ017

PS: Genotype ratio on Admixture Studio V. 2.5

Filename	Calculator	Genotype ratio
Duarte1.csv	Dodecad Globe 13	96,29%
Duarte2.csv	Dodecad Globe 13	39,68%
Duarte3.txt	Dodecad Globe 13	97,69%

 

[etrusco]

https://www.academia.edu/keypass/N0...e_Comprehensive_Version?email_work_card=title

In light of a likely authoctonous origins of the etruscan language what to make of the Woundhuzein's thesis now?
Among the explanations we can single out these options:

etruscan was heavily influenced by an IE anatolian language
PIE was influenced by an EEF language at the time of the Cucuteni and Sredni Stog interaction period ( Sredni Stog had possibly something like 30% EEF) let's not forget that IE are overpacked with EEF cultural traits in every aspect: metallurgy agropastoralism, burial methods and religion
etruscan and IE share the same west eurasian linguistic roots and so they can have the same father or possibly the same grand father

Fact that PIE could cluster with etruscan point to a direction toward WHG as the vector of most of PIE inside the EHG.



We live in interesting time

 

[Pax Augusta]

I was wrong on the origins of the etruscan. Adna clearly now demonstrate that Etruscans were a italian copper age population that lived from the early bronze age onward side by side with the incoming italian bell beaker R1b folks. My bet is etruscans are basically a Remedello/Rinaldone kind of population ( the range of these 2 cultures perfectly overlaps the extention of the etruscan regions from the central alps to Latium.
Thanks to ancient dna we have the first historical insight on a EEF language likely of cardial origin. A big surprise ahead...stay tuned.
As an italian needless to say that this is the perfect example of the bright side of being wrong .

Admitting you were wrong does you credit. For archaeology we can refer to a people called Etruscans only from the beginning of the Iron Age, for a general model that is applied to all the peoples of pre-Roman Italy. The idea the population of the Rinaldone culture could be among the ancestors of the Etruscans has been discussed for many years (and Remedello in northern Itay), Pallottino himself mentions this possibility. If I remember well, in some cases there is evidence that the Etruscans during the Iron Age continued to use the burial sites of the Rinaldone culture between southern Tuscany and northern Latium, as if they were aware of a connection. I can't be more precise because I have vague memories; I read this a few years ago. In any case, yes, at the beginning of the Iron Age when ethnogenesis is complete the Etruscans appear as a fusion of the previous pre-Indo-European layer with the IE language migrations that occurred from the second half of the Bronze Age, like what happens, for example, in Spain during the same period.


This short article from "The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece and Rome" published in 2010 and written by Rex E. Wallace, though extremely concise, makes a very accurate point, which is what the vast majority of scholars believe.

"Origins. The Indo-european languages of ancient Italy were not indigenous. Scholars speculate that speakers of the Italic languages arrived in Italy by traversing the Alps, probably in the last half of the second millennium BCE. Hundreds of years later, Cisalpine Celtic speakers moved into the peninsula by a similar route; the epigraphic and historical records indicate their incursions as far south as Rome in the fourth century BCE. Etruscan origins lie in the distant past. Despite the claim by Herodotus, who wrote that Etruscans migrated to Italy from Lydia in the eastern Mediterranean, there is no material or linguistic evidence to support this. Etruscan material culture developed in an unbroken chain from Bronze Age antecedents. As for linguistic relationships, Lydian is an Indo-European language. Lemnian, which is attested by a few inscriptions discovered near Kamania on the island of Lemnos, was a dialect of Etruscan introduced to the island by commercial adventurers. Linguistic similarities connecting Etruscan with Raetic, a language spoken in the sub-Alpine regions of northeastern Italy, further militate against the idea of eastern origins".

In light of a likely authoctonous origins of the etruscan language what to make of the Woundhuzein's thesis now?
Among the explanations we can single out these options:

etruscan was heavily influenced by an IE anatolian language
PIE was influenced by an EEF language at the time of the Cucuteni and Sredni Stog interaction period ( Sredni Stog had possibly something like 30% EEF) let's not forget that IE are overpacked with EEF cultural traits in every aspect: metallurgy agropastoralism, burial methods and religion
etruscan and IE share the same west eurasian linguistic roots and so they can have the same father or possibly the same grand father

Fact that PIE could cluster with etruscan point to a direction toward WHG as the vector of most of PIE inside the EHG.

Woundhuzein has never been taken seriously by scholars and particularly by Etruscologists. The papers of Woundhuzein contain numerous errors on the Etruscans, being him more an expert of Iron Age Anatolia than of Iron Age Italy. There is a review by Enrico Benelli of one of Woundhuzein's writings that is particularly significant, because Benelli extreme summary makes it clear that there are even too many errors in Woundhuzein's writing (which repurposes ideas discredited by others) to write a review.

Then it is obvious that at the amateur level certain discredited theories have remained popular because colonial-type stories containing colonization and migration fascinate more an uncultured public, and the Etruscans have always attracted the most disparate agendas, even from academics not specialized in Etruscan civilization.

 

[Riverman]

In light of a likely authoctonous origins of the etruscan language what to make of the Woundhuzein's thesis now?
Among the explanations we can single out these options:

etruscan was heavily influenced by an IE anatolian language

An option so far not mentioned being that Etruscans are local, but related elements spread during the transitional period (1.200-1.100 +/- 200 years) also to the East Mediterranean with the Sea People. The Etruscan language could be related to Eteocypriot which being attested from about 1.100 BC. In later times we have Grey Ware in Greece and Western Anatolia, with late LBA Grey Ware concentrated around Troy and in Crete, with obvious Italian connections and finds. There were also Mycenaean era settlements from Greece-Islands-Anatolia in Italia and for sure cultural ties and intensified networks. So the Etruscans could have been influenced by Anatolians even without ever really moving out as a people, but only their relatives did and established a pan-Mediterranean network connecting Greece, the Islands and Anatolia in subsequent centuries.

 

[Pax Augusta]

An option so far not mentioned being that Etruscans are local, but related elements spread during the transitional period (1.200-1.100 +/- 200 years) also to the East Mediterranean with the Sea People. The Etruscan language could be related to Eteocypriot which being attested from about 1.100 BC. In later times we have Grey Ware in Greece and Western Anatolia, with late LBA Grey Ware concentrated around Troy and in Crete, with obvious Italian connections and finds. There were also Mycenaean era settlements from Greece-Islands-Anatolia in Italia and for sure cultural ties and intensified networks. So the Etruscans could have been influenced by Anatolians even without ever really moving out as a people, but only their relatives did and established a pan-Mediterranean network connecting Greece, the Islands and Anatolia in subsequent centuries.

The one you mention is a forum option, for people who don't know how to spend their time and they spend their time rehashing superseded theories. Anatolian influences in Etruria arrived between the end of the Orientalizing and the beginning of the Archaic, that is, hundreds of years after the birth of Etruscan civilization.

The idea the Etruscan language could be related to Eteocypriot is just another outdated and discredited theory.

 

[Riverman]

The one you mention is a forum option, for people who don't know how to spend their time, but not in an academic level study. Anatolian influences in Etruria arrived between the end of the Orientalizing and the beginning of the Archaic, that is, hundreds of years after the birth of Etruscan civilization.

We probably see, based on the samples, when they arrived first. The influence I'm speaking about with Grey Ware and reciprocal exchange between Italia and the Eastern Mediterranean was about 1.200-1.100 BC.

Finally, there is a revival of Grey Ware in northern Greece during Late Helladic IIIC, which then continues into the Early Iron Age at sites such as Kastanas (Jung 2002) and Toumba Thessaloniki. For the last two issues see the contributions by R. Jung and S. Jimatzidis on this web-site. To make the picture complete, one should also mention the existence of grey ware in the Protogeometric period, as exemplified at Lefkandi.
The Late Bronze Age islands seem to be less interested in grey wares, and one has to differentiate when referring to the Cyclades, Crete, northeast Aegean or southeast Aegean. In the Cyclades grey ware occurs only in a few cases on Keos in Late Helladic I and Late Helladic II contexts (Cummer ? Schofield 1984, 47, 95), while it seems to be absent at other sites. Crete, on the contrary, offers a whole range of Late Bronze Age Grey Wares, some of which likewise betray an Italian origin, or at least inspiration. For more detail see the contribution by L. Girella on this web-site. The northeast Aegean islands will be dealt with together with Anatolian finds, but the southeast Aegean islands, such as Kos, Psara and Rhodes, show yet another type of Late Bronze Age Grey Wares, covering largely Late Helladic IIIA and IIIB. They are a mixture of local elements, Anatolian influences and Mycenaean shapes (Benzi 1996; Girella 2005).

http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=5

This is Luca Girella:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Luca-Girella

This is one of the relevant papers, with the strongest influence from the Eastern Mediterranean at the earliest times going from Crete to Southern Italy:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331818147_Patterns_of_exchange_and_mobility_the_case_of_the_Grey_Ware_in_Middle_and_Late_Minoan_Crete

 

[Pax Augusta]

We probably see, based on the samples, when they arrived first. The influence I'm speaking about with Grey Ware and reciprocal exchange between Italia and the Eastern Mediterranean was about 1.200-1.100 BC.

Does anyone know the site and results from Luca Girella? This is him:

This is one of the relevant papers:

Nothing you have posted brings any evidence in favor of old discredited theories. At most, it's about contacts. For your information in Etruria between 1200 and 1000 BC there is the protovillanovan culture, whose origin is in the Urnfield culture of central Europe.

I understand that for issues related to the research of their own personal identity many would like the Etruscans to be connected to the East from the beginning. But at some point you also have to grow up and accept the evidence of facts.

 

[Riverman]

Nothing you have posted brings any evidence in favor of old discredited theories. At most, it's about contacts. For your information in Etruria between 1200 and 100 BC there is the protovillanovan culture, whose origin is in the Urnfield culture of central Europe.

I understand that for issues related to the research of their own personal identity many would like the Etruscans to be connected to the East from the beginning. But at some point you also have to grow up and accept the evidence of facts.

Actually I was more in favour of an Pannonian origin of Etruscans than most early on. Influence from the Eastern Mediterranean doesn't mean that Etruscan itself came from there. If you read what I wrote, I rather argued for the opposite, namely Italian-Western Mediterranean derived Sea People connecting the West with the East and indeed establishing networks. This could influence Etruscans without them having come from the East or moving out themselves. Eteocypriot is no older than 1.100 BC, or at least not attested before, which means it could have spread with Sea People too.

I have no identity issues conntected with the Etruscans

 

[Jovialis]

Actually I was more in favour of an Pannonian origin of Etruscans than most early on. Influence from the Eastern Mediterranean doesn't mean that Etruscan itself came from there. If you read what I wrote, I rather argued for the opposite, namely Italian-Western Mediterranean derived Sea People connecting the West with the East and indeed establishing networks. This could influence Etruscans without them having come from the East or moving out themselves. Eteocypriot is no older than 1.100 BC, or at least not attested before, which means it could have spread with Sea People too.

I have no identity issues conntected with the Etruscans

It seem that some Nordicists like to use Levantist rhetoric, to explain why ancient people from the past are not like them today. That's why people like that get along well over at that other site.

However, the fact of the matter is that Etruscans, like Latins only had a minority Steppe component, with an equivalent CHG/IN component, and were predominately Anatolian_N

Furthermore, Ancient Greeks had more CHG than Steppe, which is a likely source for the increased amounts in Southern Italy.

It is also a fact that none of the most recent studies like Sarno et al. 2021 do not model Southern Italians at all with Levantine. This is only an invention of G25, because it is an inferior means of determining ancestry.

 

[Pax Augusta]

It seem that some Nordicists like to use Levantist rhetoric, to explain why ancient people from the past are not like them today. That's why people like that get along well over at that other site.

Nordicists and Levantists/Orientalists use the same rhetoric indeed.

 

[Angela]

This has already been said many years ago by archaeologists, that there was no evidence to support a Lydian origin of the Etruscans, but for unclear reasons outside of specialised studies it has continued to speak of a theory that is no longer taken seriously by etruscology since many years.




It's actually not that strange.

Speaking in general, the Etruscans were in massive presence in western Emilia up to southern Lombardy, they didn't really disappear after the arrival of the Gauls around 400 BC you can see it from the graves. Etruscans without doubt were also present in the Ligurian world as well as Ligurians in the Etruscan one. So it is very possible that your father has among his ancestors Ligurians, Etruscans, Latins...

Indeed, and my mother from La Spezia and the provincia di Massa Carrara (the ancient Lunigiana in general), so the same applies.