Genetic study Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

[Salento]

Distance to:	Jovialis
3.24240651	VEN013
4.01990050	TAQ003
4.75213636	VEN006
4.93654738	ETR013
5.12963936	VEN001
5.37851281	VEN015
5.48651984	VEN016
5.55091884	TAQ020
5.75717813	VEN010
6.00671291	VEN009
6.30009524	TAQ011
6.42409527	ETR003
6.68628447	TAQ009
6.78860810	ETR014
7.02363154	VEN005
7.76436089	TAQ021
8.01757445	POP001
8.03818387	ETR004
8.44791690	ETR010
8.46739039	VEN012
8.47912142	TAQ022
9.54584203	VEN022
10.07067525	ETR006
10.32986447	ETR012
10.74665064	MAS003

Thanks Jovialis

Distance to:	S_Dod_GlK13
3.00059994	TAQ003
3.09208667	VEN013
3.17318452	VEN016
4.05788122	VEN001
4.08460524	VEN006
4.26884059	VEN015
4.95259528	ETR003
5.03726116	VEN009
5.13276728	VEN010
5.67258319	ETR014
6.33947947	TAQ011
6.70822629	ETR013
6.96997131	VEN012
7.50265953	VEN022
7.57392897	TAQ009
7.78476718	ETR004
7.81180517	TAQ020
7.84144757	TAQ021
7.99439804	VEN005
9.51576061	VEN018
9.57413704	POP001
9.95202994	TAQ022
10.06018389	ETR010
10.41507561	ETR007
10.82860564	MAS003

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Dodecad 12B Distances. Analysis with Antonio et al 2019 Roman samples plus new Max Plank samples are source data. All distances < 10 (rounded). 65 total, 20 of them are from the new Max Plank samples. Like what I am seeing. Thanks again Jovialis for these coordinates for the new samples

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani_Combined
2.38784422	VEN015
2.62716577	R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
2.80777492	R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
3.25103061	R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
3.29887860	R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
3.93635618	R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
4.04278369	VEN013
4.05677212	R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche
4.18025119	R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.24855269	VEN005
4.25480904	R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
4.28794823	R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
4.58093877	ETR001
4.58742847	R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
4.61280826	TAQ003
4.63776886	R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
4.81801826	R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
4.85203050	R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.06126466	R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche
5.06482971	R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.25831722	R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
5.30568563	R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.43333231	R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
5.46535452	R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
5.48053829	R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
5.65108839	R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
5.72629025	R113_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
5.95183165	R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
6.03015754	R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
6.12952690	TAQ021
6.18293620	VEN001
6.18618622	VEN006
6.23349822	R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.44542473	ETR013
6.46209718	VEN016
6.47404047	R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
6.70104469	R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
6.76414814	R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
6.77437820	R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
7.19765240	R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
7.28032280	R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
7.28809303	ETR014
7.54798649	R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
8.02691722	R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
8.15834542	TAQ011
8.26566997	R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
8.38538013	R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
8.49709951	TAQ009
8.89724677	R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
9.00778552	R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
9.04179739	R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
9.10637140	R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
9.17092689	MAS003
9.23174415	ETR003
9.27569943	R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
9.35309040	ETR010
9.44418340	R125_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce
9.52039915	TAQ020
9.73570747	TAQ007
9.87760092	POP001
9.91290573	R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
9.96464249	R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
10.03153029	R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
10.34220479	R45_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
10.49192547	VEN017

 

[torzio]

Distance to:	Jovialis
3.24240651	VEN013
4.01990050	TAQ003
4.75213636	VEN006
4.93654738	ETR013
5.12963936	VEN001
5.37851281	VEN015
5.48651984	VEN016
5.55091884	TAQ020
5.75717813	VEN010
6.00671291	VEN009
6.30009524	TAQ011
6.42409527	ETR003
6.68628447	TAQ009
6.78860810	ETR014
7.02363154	VEN005
7.76436089	TAQ021
8.01757445	POP001
8.03818387	ETR004
8.44791690	ETR010
8.46739039	VEN012
8.47912142	TAQ022
9.54584203	VEN022
10.07067525	ETR006
10.32986447	ETR012
10.74665064	MAS003

has it been confirmed that VEN is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venosa

a samnite town ?

 

[torzio]

Here are all of the coordinates in Dodecad K12b format:

CAM001,1.38,0.19,1.2,0,47.62,24.58,0,0,6.88,0,17.87,0.27
CAM002,4.72,0.03,0,1.59,40.47,34.19,0,0,4.64,0,13.94,0.44
CAM003,0.93,0.04,0.79,0,49.21,23.83,0,0,7,0.18,16.98,1.04
CSN001,0.74,0,1.6,0.73,46.5,23.83,0,0,7.19,0,19.25,0.16
CSN002,0,0.36,0,0,41.12,32.35,0,0,0,0,26.17,0
CSN003,0.97,0.01,2,0,49.14,21.97,1.05,0,7.95,0.53,15.93,0.45
CSN004,1.49,0,2.17,0.71,51.75,19.41,0.13,0,5.2,0,18.21,0.93
CSN005,1.48,0,4.65,0,39.23,28.19,0.65,0,6.11,0.54,19.16,0
CSN006,3.62,0,0,1.53,45.77,24.02,0.29,0,4.9,0,19.6,0.27
CSN007,0,0,0,0.5,50.29,20.45,0,0,10.86,0,17.91,0
CSN008,4.93,0,0,0.4,43.71,27.95,0,0,4.16,0,18.84,0
CSN009,2.52,0,2.03,0,39.86,27.95,0,0,2.52,0.43,23.93,0.75
CSN010,4.43,0.27,3.49,0,40.36,31.59,0,0,5.33,1.81,11.48,1.25
CSN012,7.01,0,10.55,0,41.84,29.45,0,0,0,0,11.15,0
CSN013,4.87,0,0.54,0,45.93,21.96,0.41,0,5.92,0.25,19.55,0.57
ETR003,10.36,0,2.55,0,30.58,19.47,0,0,10.98,0,25.66,0.41
ETR004,17.44,0,0,0,19.59,19.63,0,0,11.7,0,31.64,0
ETR005,2,0,0,1.54,45.54,20.52,0.17,0,9.35,1.02,18.73,1.13
ETR006,3.87,1.22,0,0,39.39,15.01,0,0,12.67,0,26.45,1.39
ETR007,5.51,0,2.37,1.28,30.11,25.01,0,0,8.81,0,26.92,0
ETR010,4.58,0.05,1.08,0.22,37.3,17.15,0.08,0,9.4,0,29.53,0.6
ETR012,17.52,1.96,0,0,41.58,12.98,3.45,0.35,5.74,0,16.42,0
ETR013,6.64,0.06,1.86,0,35.44,14.98,0,0,9.51,0,31.24,0.28
ETR014,3.51,0,2.87,0,27.31,14.86,0.51,0,14.53,0,36.4,0
MAG001,0.84,0,0,0,47.05,24.88,0.37,0.08,3.46,0.47,22.84,0.02
MAS001,7.2,0.84,4.18,0,26.73,30.23,1.6,0.6,6.25,1.12,21.08,0.18
MAS002,6.49,1.52,3.63,0,23.56,7.82,0,0.48,18.33,0.02,38.16,0
MAS003,2.81,0,8.6,1.47,34.71,11.66,0,1.28,11.86,0,26.84,0.76
MAS004,1.12,0,0.85,0,44.63,29.23,0,0,1.36,1.35,21.46,0
POP001,4.72,0.15,0.86,0,35.02,19.76,0,0,8.74,1.36,28.84,0.55
PRZ001,1.55,0.11,0,0,48.41,23.78,0,0,6.08,0.13,19.22,0.71
PRZ002,0,0,2.6,0.54,47.1,27.43,0,0,4.06,1.06,17.2,0
TAQ001,2.36,0,4.12,0.57,47.15,23.95,0,0,4.6,0,17.25,0
TAQ002,0,0,1.15,0.26,46.51,23.88,0,0,5.81,0,21.27,1.12
TAQ003,5.6,0,2.14,1.3,29.31,17.09,0.1,0.93,11.36,0,31.59,0.58
TAQ004,1.71,0.66,0.95,0.36,48.5,23.89,0,0,5.59,0,17.87,0.48
TAQ005,1.39,0.44,5.14,0,46.29,17.75,0.22,0.33,8.86,0.41,18.68,0.49
TAQ006,1.18,0,3.59,0,42.96,25.05,0.15,0,2.83,0,24.24,0
TAQ007,3.25,0.65,8.19,0,33.36,6.55,0.82,0,13.72,0.07,31.87,1.52
TAQ008,4.27,1.3,0.28,0.84,49.67,21.5,0,0,3.99,0,17.53,0.63
TAQ009,4.13,0.23,2.43,0.82,33.16,19.69,0.14,0,9.54,0,28.81,1.06
TAQ010,0,0,1.32,0.05,48.43,24.81,0.71,0,4.04,0,20.41,0.24
TAQ011,6.51,0.15,1.38,0.03,33.17,19.02,0,1.09,10.21,0,27.5,0.96
TAQ012,3.32,0,1.79,0,51.8,17.96,0.72,0,7.3,0,16.79,0.33
TAQ013,2.83,1.64,1.78,0,46.46,21.33,0,0,6.68,0,19.04,0.23
TAQ015,1.72,0,2.42,0,46.31,21.99,0,0,6.46,0.63,19.66,0.81
TAQ016,2.43,0,1.67,0,46.91,24.12,0.84,0,5.34,0,18.06,0.63
TAQ017,4.08,0,1.96,0,48.92,20.11,0,0,5.6,0,19.12,0.21
TAQ018,0,0,0.47,0,48.53,20.84,0.43,0,6.5,1.43,20.91,0.89
TAQ019,0.49,0,2.18,0,47.66,24.5,0.17,0,5.48,0.04,19.27,0.21
TAQ020,9.02,0.66,1.49,0.5,34.13,18.73,0.12,0,7.43,0,27.92,0
TAQ021,3.74,0,2.51,0,33.22,11.47,2.01,0,12.62,0,34.44,0
TAQ022,5.66,0,2.84,0,34.54,19.74,2.22,0,6.34,0,28.11,0.54
TAQ023,0.11,0,9.86,0,38.6,11.68,0.88,1.34,10.18,0,26.04,1.31
TAQ024,1.55,0.2,4.01,0.27,46.92,21.83,0,0.36,4.57,0,20.29,0
UDC_P,0,0,4.31,0,52.14,29.39,0,0,0.89,0,13.22,0.04
VEN001,5.14,0,3.87,0.01,28.18,17.6,0,0,11.33,2.38,29.77,1.73
VEN002,2.79,8.01,0,12.59,16.3,9.93,3.89,0.01,6.34,27.43,12.71,0
VEN005,6.66,0,4.28,1.53,32.55,10.92,0,0,10.86,0.37,32.83,0
VEN006,8.51,0.54,5.29,0.22,27.14,16.32,0,0,9.76,1.99,30.08,0.16
VEN008,4.55,6.58,0,0,36.17,16.54,2.72,0,8.77,0,23.04,1.63
VEN009,4.96,0,10.9,0.28,29.02,16.26,0,3.03,6.57,0,28.99,0
VEN010,16.14,0,2.12,1.09,37.1,15.42,0,0.05,13.2,0,14.88,0
VEN012,2.86,0,1.41,0.17,24.58,14.71,0,1.75,12.7,5.77,36.03,0.03
VEN013,7.7,0,5.12,0,28.43,14.81,0,0,10.94,1.22,30.32,1.45
VEN014,12.68,0,5.83,0,33.04,0,0,0.24,17.71,1.35,28.74,0.42
VEN015,7.16,0,3.85,0.73,28.62,13.96,0.39,0,13.73,0,30.9,0.64
VEN016,6.56,0,6.02,0,25.63,16.98,0,0,13.65,0.44,30.73,0
VEN017,1.13,1.55,0,0.12,32.91,17.47,3.75,0,12.37,3.07,27.62,0
VEN018,9.33,0,3.69,0,27.33,17.18,0,0,19.59,0,20.74,2.14
VEN021,8.65,0,0.51,3.3,17.54,14.06,0,2.43,21.68,1.47,30.37,0
VEN022,7.04,0,0,5.28,15.13,25.83,0,0.13,20.82,0,25.77,0
VET001,1.52,0,2.24,1.15,42.15,23.87,0,1.18,6.3,0,21.57,0
VET002,0.77,1.24,2.59,0,48.74,18.77,0,0,7.8,0.08,20.03,0
VET003_4,1.33,0,2.66,0,47.08,21.2,0.25,0.26,7.04,0.15,20.03,0
VET005,7.72,0.55,0,0,43.13,37.83,0,1.41,1.61,0,7.74,0
VET007,0,0,2.57,0.68,51.02,20.09,0.22,0,6.74,0.42,17.63,0.63
VET008,0.41,0,8.27,0,38.29,9.06,0,1.75,12.78,0.04,28.42,0.99
VET010,0,0,4.61,0.76,48.22,21.92,0.27,0,3.53,0,20.12,0.57
VET011,0,0,6.57,0,51.11,17.17,0,2.72,3.32,0,19.1,0
VEU001,0,0,1.86,2.69,45.76,22.07,0,0.83,3.79,0,23.01,0
VOL001,0.94,0,1.77,0,44.5,24.66,0.61,0.03,5.61,0,21.4,0.48

thanks

what is CSN ?

Distance to:	Torziok12b
7.47945854	CSN005
7.77274083	CSN009
8.85378450	CSN008
9.41315569	ETR007
9.57447649	VET001
9.89305312	MAS001
10.99554455	TAQ006
11.05177814	CAM002
11.17633214	VOL001
11.32613350	TAQ022
11.63097588	CSN006
11.80943267	CSN010
11.86362508	MAS004
11.98595845	TAQ020
12.05735460	POP001
12.13428201	CSN013
12.20780898	TAQ011
12.54692393	ETR003
12.64932014	TAQ009
12.85277402	CSN002
13.01492220	TAQ016
13.27414027	CSN001
13.36240248	TAQ015
13.51870186	TAQ013
13.52757184	TAQ002

Distance to:	CSN005
4.61774431	Swiss_Italian
5.60615733	Italian_Trentino
6.39410666	Italian_Piedmont

 

[Stuvanè]

Based on #256 post coordinates

Distance to:	Dodecadk12bStuvanè
4.12127407	ETR007
5.96436920	TAQ009
6.18798836	POP001
6.31981012	TAQ011
6.68472139	TAQ022
7.80932776	TAQ020
8.33039615	ETR003
9.15716659	ETR010
10.23210145	CSN009
10.26249970	VEN017
10.50968601	VEN001
10.54409788	VET001
10.71946361	CSN005
10.81554437	TAQ003
11.19209096	MAS001
11.35817327	ETR013
11.38123016	VEN008
11.93949748	ETR006
12.07552069	TAQ006
12.56003583	VEN006
12.81852566	VOL001
12.93006961	VEN013
13.61044819	VEN016
13.78004717	CSN008
13.92520736	VEN015

 

[Stuvanè]

Based on #254 post coordinates

Distance to:	Dodecad_Glob_13Stuvanè
3.50182809	ETR007
6.47319087	TAQ011
7.28703643	MAS001
7.68488126	TAQ009
7.78856213	TAQ022
8.38830734	VEN010
8.41722638	POP001
8.55021637	VEN009
9.11615050	ETR003
9.54094335	VEN008
9.94562718	ETR010
10.04199681	VET001
10.51667723	VEN018
10.61888883	CSN005
10.63110060	ETR006
10.66085831	ETR013
11.68427148	CSN009
11.74483716	VEN001
11.87424945	TAQ003
11.94143626	CSN013
11.99305632	CSN006
12.04318064	TAQ006
12.27419651	VOL001
12.35918687	TAQ015
12.66158758	TAQ016

 

[Maciamo]

Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

Highly improbable:

- C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
- G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
- H3 (found in South Asia)
- I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
- N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
- O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
- O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
- R1b-U106 (North European)
- R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
- R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

Impossible:

- I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
- R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
- R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

- A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

If we exclude the above, we are left with :

- E1b1b-L618 (1x)
- G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
- I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
- I2c1 (3x)
- J1 (1x)
- J1-P58 (x1)
- J2 (x1)
- J2a1-L26 (3x)
- J2b2 (5x)
- R1b-Z2103 (1x)
- R1b-L51 (6x)
- R1b-P312 (2x)
- R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.

 

[Maciamo]

Does anybody have the locations and dates for the samples?

I suppose that it could be something like that.

- CAM : Campeva, Campania
- CSN : Cesena
- ETR : Etruria? (not a city)
- MAG : Magliano in Toscana?
- MAS : Massa
- POP: Populonia
- PRZ : ?
- TAQ : Tarquinia
- UDC : ?
- VEN : Venturina
- VET : Vetluna (Vetulonia)
- VEU : ?
- VOL : Volterra

 

[Maciamo]

Looks like I have the closest match so far, even if only one.

Distance to:	Maciamo
1.94411934	VET005
8.71826244	CAM002
9.87295295	CSN010
13.54435307	CSN012

 

[Maciamo]

I have updated the Etruscan modal value for Dodecad K12b based on these 82 samples + the 3 from Antonio 2019.

Etruscan_modal,3.92,0.37,2.71,0.54,39.36,20.33,0.36,0.29,8.12,0.70,22.86,0.43

Distance to:	Etruscans
3.71067379	Italian_Liguria
4.33882473	French_Corsica
4.39770395	Italian_Emilia
4.76126034	Italian_Tuscany
5.46534537	Italian_Lombardy
6.69750700	Italian_Piedmont
6.96570887	Italian_Romagna
7.94296544	Italian_Veneto
9.09552981	Swiss_Italian
9.62146164	Italian_Marche
10.25746557	Italian_Lazio
10.43134699	Italian_Friuli_VG
10.47458830	Italian_Trentino
11.38253047	Spanish_Canarias
11.74652715	Spanish_Baleares
11.97243083	Portuguese
12.24043300	Italian_Aosta_Valley
12.79628852	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
13.39125834	Spanish_Valencia
13.57399352	Albanian_Kosovo
14.09477208	Albanian
14.26382838	Macedonian_South
14.27691844	Macedonian_Vardar
14.42375818	Greek_Thessaly
14.54745682	Spanish_Catalonia

 

[Hawk]

Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

Highly improbable:

- C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
- G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
- H3 (found in South Asia)
- I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
- N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
- O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
- O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
- R1b-U106 (North European)
- R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
- R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

Impossible:

- I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
- R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
- R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

- A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

If we exclude the above, we are left with :

- E1b1b-L618 (1x)
- G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
- I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
- I2c1 (3x)
- J1 (1x)
- J1-P58 (x1)
- J2 (x1)
- J2a1-L26 (3x)
- J2b2 (5x)
- R1b-Z2103 (1x)
- R1b-L51 (6x)
- R1b-P312 (2x)
- R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.

Nice analysis Maciamo as always.

Bear in mind that the samples include from Iron Age up to 1000 A.D if i am not wrong.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Some of them:

Ph2ter on Anthrogenica did his magic as usual. These are some of them.


Here are my closest matches, g25 calc, since not on desktop and able to use other calcs.


https://imgur.com/a/DxYohkU

 

[Maciamo]

Bear in mind that the samples include from Iron Age up to 1000 A.D if i am not wrong.

You are right. I missed that. That would explain the Germanic lineages, at least. It's annoying to analyse samples without having dates. Some are pre-Roman, other Late Republic, Empire and Middle Ages. They need to be separated by period.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I have updated the Etruscan modal value for Dodecad K12b based on these 82 samples + the 3 from Antonio 2019.

Etruscan_modal,3.92,0.37,2.71,0.54,39.36,20.33,0.36,0.29,8.12,0.70,22.86,0.43

Distance to:	Etruscans
3.71067379	Italian_Liguria
4.33882473	French_Corsica
4.39770395	Italian_Emilia
4.76126034	Italian_Tuscany
5.46534537	Italian_Lombardy
6.69750700	Italian_Piedmont
6.96570887	Italian_Romagna
7.94296544	Italian_Veneto
9.09552981	Swiss_Italian
9.62146164	Italian_Marche
10.25746557	Italian_Lazio
10.43134699	Italian_Friuli_VG
10.47458830	Italian_Trentino
11.38253047	Spanish_Canarias
11.74652715	Spanish_Baleares
11.97243083	Portuguese
12.24043300	Italian_Aosta_Valley
12.79628852	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
13.39125834	Spanish_Valencia
13.57399352	Albanian_Kosovo
14.09477208	Albanian
14.26382838	Macedonian_South
14.27691844	Macedonian_Vardar
14.42375818	Greek_Thessaly
14.54745682	Spanish_Catalonia

These are not 82 Etruscan specimens, they can't all be labeled as Etruscan, no preprint came out, and they cover an era from 800 BC to 100 AD, almost 2000 years and not all are from Etruria.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Does anybody have the locations and dates for the samples?

There is still no information.

 

[Maciamo]

These are not 82 Etruscan specimens, they can't all be labeled as Etruscan, no preprint came out, and they cover an era from 800 BC to 100 AD, almost 2000 years and not all are from Etruria.

I know. I posted that before I realised that the samples went as far as 1000 CE.

I made an average of six samples with Germanic haplogroups (I1, R1b-L238, R1b-U106 and N1c1 which surely came along) and the results are very different. Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian.

Distance to:	Medieval_Tuscany
6.12423056	Spanish_Baleares
6.27943469	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
6.36714222	Spanish_Valencia
7.22225726	Spanish_Catalonia
7.74048448	Spanish_Andalusia
7.80179467	Portuguese
7.96512398	Swiss_Italian
8.12560767	Italian_Lombardy
8.26597847	Spanish_Aragon
8.40026785	Spanish_Galicia
8.80765576	Spanish_Cantabria
8.86411304	Italian_Aosta_Valley
9.38626124	Italian_Piedmont
9.70680689	Spanish_Canarias
9.71303763	Italian_Trentino
9.74944101	Spanish_Asturias
9.89557477	Italian_Liguria
10.33320860	Spanish_Extremadura_1KG
10.60837405	French_Auvergne
10.69555983	Spanish_La_Rioja
10.90566825	Italian_Veneto
10.99904996	Italian_Emilia
11.73342235	French_South
12.11700871	French_Corsica
12.38671466	Italian_Tuscany

 

[Pax Augusta]

Ph2ter on Anthrogenica did his magic as usual. These are some of them.


Here are my closest matches, g25 calc, since not on desktop and able to use other calcs.


https://imgur.com/a/DxYohkU

As I've said in another thread, the Italian breakdown is incomplete on G25 (only 1 Ligurian, Emilia-Romagna completely missing, 1/3 of the Corsicans seem to be to partially French, North East Italy is too much Alpine shifted...). Ph2ter is a good user but these maps reflect the problems the G25 has (and it's not the G25's fault, it's the academic samples that are released).

 

[ihype02]

Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

Highly improbable:

- C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
- G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
- H3 (found in South Asia)
- I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
- N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
- O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
- O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
- R1b-U106 (North European)
- R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
- R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

Impossible:

- I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
- R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
- R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

- A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

If we exclude the above, we are left with :

- E1b1b-L618 (1x)
- G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
- I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
- I2c1 (3x)
- J1 (1x)
- J1-P58 (x1)
- J2 (x1)
- J2a1-L26 (3x)
- J2b2 (5x)
- R1b-Z2103 (1x)
- R1b-L51 (6x)
- R1b-P312 (2x)
- R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.

Amazing analysis. I was hoping for someone to pull the numbers and extract the objective data.
Instead of hypothesising without the paper

I was about to start estimating myself.
.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I know. I posted that before I realised that the samples went as far as 1000 CE.

I made an average of six samples with Germanic haplogroups (I1, R1b-L238, R1b-U106 and N1c1 which surely came along) and the results are very different. Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian.

Distance to:	Medieval_Tuscany
6.12423056	Spanish_Baleares
6.27943469	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
6.36714222	Spanish_Valencia
7.22225726	Spanish_Catalonia
7.74048448	Spanish_Andalusia
7.80179467	Portuguese
7.96512398	Swiss_Italian
8.12560767	Italian_Lombardy
8.26597847	Spanish_Aragon
8.40026785	Spanish_Galicia
8.80765576	Spanish_Cantabria
8.86411304	Italian_Aosta_Valley
9.38626124	Italian_Piedmont
9.70680689	Spanish_Canarias
9.71303763	Italian_Trentino
9.74944101	Spanish_Asturias
9.89557477	Italian_Liguria
10.33320860	Spanish_Extremadura_1KG
10.60837405	French_Auvergne
10.69555983	Spanish_La_Rioja
10.90566825	Italian_Veneto
10.99904996	Italian_Emilia
11.73342235	French_South
12.11700871	French_Corsica
12.38671466	Italian_Tuscany

Looks Spanish rather than Northwest Italian because you can't average it that way. It is not possible to calculate a medieval Tuscan average based only on those who have a Germanic Y-DNA (which are not all from Tuscany).

Looks like I missed a lot in the last two days. It's great to finally have those Etruscan genomes.

On the other hand the Y-DNA predictions look very unreliable. Half of the haplogroups listed are either extremely improbable or downright impossible if they are really from Iron Age Etruscans because they didn't exist back then. Yet some show a confidence of 100%!

Highly improbable:

- C1b1-Y28069 (found mostly in Southeast Asia)
- G1-M3146 (found mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan)
- H3 (found in South Asia)
- I1-Z60>Z140>L338>Y4015 (essentially Germanic)
- N1c1 => given 100% confidence, but it's so rare in Italy even after the Germanic and Slavic invasions that it would be highly surprising
- O1a (found mostly among Taiwan aborigines, but otherwise South China and Japan)
- O3 (found in East Asia) => very low quality Y-DNA, so surely wrong
- R1b-U106 (North European)
- R1b-L238>Z2247 (essentially Scandinavian)
- R1b-L2>Y57468 formed 2800 ybp, but TMRCA of only 350 ybp

Impossible:

- I2a2a-L801>Y14685 formed 1450 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp
- R1b-L21>M222>A5902 formed 1350 ybp, TMRCA 950 ybp => yet given 100% confidence
- R1b-DF27>Y31420 formed 1650 ybp, TMRCA 450 ybp


Yet I wouldn't dismiss all the Sub-Saharan African Y-DNA too quickly.

- A1b1-M13 has been found in modern Italy, but also in the Middle East and North Africa. Could have come with the Carthaginians. Ditto for the E1b1a.

If we exclude the above, we are left with :

- E1b1b-L618 (1x)
- G2a (x10, including the Neolithic PF3359 (2x) and L140>CTS342 (2x) and the Italo-Celtic L140>L497 (2x))
- I2a2a-Y3259 (1x)
- I2c1 (3x)
- J1 (1x)
- J1-P58 (x1)
- J2 (x1)
- J2a1-L26 (3x)
- J2b2 (5x)
- R1b-Z2103 (1x)
- R1b-L51 (6x)
- R1b-P312 (2x)
- R1b-U152 (x12, including 10x L2, 1x Z36)


Based on these 45 samples, it looks like the Etruscans were primarily R1b (47%), G2a (22%) and J2 (20%).

Interestingly the Latins seemed to have more R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152>Z56, while the Etruscans are mostly R1b-L51 and R1b-U152>L2. I am starting to wonder whether the R1b-L2 outside of Italy is really Celtic or if most of it could be ultimately of Italian origin, be it Latin/Italic, Etruscan or even Cisalpine Celtic.

I do agree with much of this. Other analyses of Etruscan samples will also come out in the future and hopefully those from the oldest phase (900-500 BC) will be tested, which will clarify what other clades of R1b and in particular of R1b U152 were present among Etruscans.

 

[Archetype0ne]

As I've said in another thread, the Italian breakdown is incomplete on G25 (only 1 Ligurian, Emilia-Romagna completely missing, 1/3 of the Corsicans seem to be to partially French, North East Italy is too much Alpine shifted...). Ph2ter is a good user but these maps reflect the problems the G25 has (and it's not the G25's fault, it's the academic samples that are released).

Thanks. Have a feeling you are right. For the most part I just like the visualization aspcet of such an aproach, wish the database was more representative.

And for modern Balkans, which is my reference they never dissapoint. In fact using G25 you can find glaring errors in academic samples as you pointed out. Some of the Scythians for example, autosomally lool on the South Europe cline. Which unless you read the updated version of the paper, and are stuck with the first release you would be lead astray.