Genetic study Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

not you … people use the term ‘Outliers’ too casually,… some with bias to discredit legit samples,

No Latin outliers on the official list:

b20TRzM.jpg


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf

Yeah, I kind of get that feeling as well. What, it is not enough that these samples existed in the Iron Age? They can't turn around and say, it was from mass immigration from the Imperial era for this sample. People believe what they want to believe. Frankly, I don't give a damn.
 
Yep, we are not only piasan to ETR001, but famiglia with ETR001. Hey, also kudos to you for keep reminding posters here that R850 is not a statistical outlier as you showed everyone with the Table from Antonio et al 2019. I have a pretty close Deep Dive with R850 and a smaller one with R437 that I saved a copy of, but it dropped out as more samples were added.. Although, R437 is very, very, close distance wise with every Calculator that I run more so than R850.


cDrFCaG.jpg


d4ZXbX3.jpg
Thanks Jovialis and PT :)

they’re the opposite of Outliers,

… my deep dive shows a chromosome 8 and 20 continuity between R850 Ardea Latin and R437 Praeneste Latin, … all the way to R436 Roman Imperial Praeneste (chr 8)
(and with many more samples too)

The Latin and Roman from Praeneste are obviously genetically connected, R436 matches pretty much all R437 chromosomes positions:

OXuOgHe.jpg


X4QIgjx.jpg


0cT603w.jpg
 
That should be very interesting paper...:cool-v:
Maybe the 50% east- med shift in imperial time
Came from greek colonies
The problem i dont know how much influence of greeks was in erturia ....:unsure:
 
Does not anybody else find it interesting that the closest Greek area to the ETR001 sample is Lemnos? Lemnos has long been associated with Erturia at least linguistically. Was Lemnos an Etruscan colony? Or the reverse? It would be interesting if ancient Lemnos samples were analyzed for closeness.
 
Does not anybody else find it interesting that the closest Greek area to the ETR001 sample is Lemnos? Lemnos has long been associated with Erturia at least linguistically. Was Lemnos an Etruscan colony? Or the reverse? It would be interesting if ancient Lemnos samples were analyzed for closeness.

ETR001 is Roman of the late Imperial period, not Etruscan. In all the PCAs she is in the opposite side of Greeks, but that she may have partial Greek origins is possible, but this has nothing to do with the origins of the Etruscans that in the PCAs are positioned far from the Greeks and join the south-western European cluster. Lemnos was conquered by the Athenians and became Greek in all respects. I have read all of the most recent SAIA studies, Italian Archaeological School of Athens, and they have found no evidence that Lemnos is related to the origins of the Etruscans. On the contrary, the hypothesis that is considered most credible is that there were small groups of Etruscans from Cerveteri on the island.


That should be very interesting paper...:cool-v:
Maybe the 50% east- med shift in imperial time
Came from greek colonies
The problem i dont know how much influence of greeks was in erturia ....:unsure:


The Greeks have never had colonies in Etruria but their presence is attested, the Greeks are among the main interlocutors of the Etruscans and therefore they were not certainly few. But above all it depends on the zones of the Etruria and by which kind of Greeks. The Syracusan Greeks were considered almost always enemies, with the Foceian/Ionian Greeks very unstable relations, and with the Athenians there were often good relations. At Delphi in Greece the Etruscans brought gifts. In Tarquinia, southern Etruria (northern Lazio), for example, must have lived a Greek community from Ionia (Anatolia) around 600-500 BC that will not have been very small numerically. But if the shift occurred in the imperial era it is no longer something that depends on the Etruscans, but on the Romans. According to archeology in the settlements in Campania, southern Italy, the Etruscans were most likley very mixed with the Greeks and the sorrounding local populations.
 
I feel like the full paper will not come up until at least some weeks or even months pass by. If it was a matter of a couple days, they wouldn't put a preview at all
 
ETR001 is Roman, not Etruscan. In all the PCAs she is in the opposite side of Greeks, but that she may have partial Greek origins is possible, but this has nothing to do with the origins of the Etruscans that in the PCAs are positioned far from the Greeks and join the south-western European cluster. Lemnos was conquered by the Athenians and became Greek in all respects. I have read all of the most recent SAIA studies, Italian Archaeological School of Athens, and they have found no evidence that Lemnos is related to the origins of the Etruscans. On the contrary, the hypothesis that is considered most credible is that there were small groups of Etruscans from Cerveteri on the island.





The Greeks have never had colonies in Etruria but their presence is attested, the Greeks are among the main interlocutors of the Etruscans and therefore they were not certainly few. But above all it depends on the zones of the Etruria and by which kind of Greeks. The Syracusan Greeks were considered almost always enemies, with the Foceian/Ionian Greeks very unstable relations, and with the Athenians there were often good relations. At Delphi in Greece the Etruscans brought gifts. In Tarquinia, southern Etruria (northern Lazio), for example, must have lived a Greek community from Ionia (Anatolia) around 600-500 BC that will not have been very small numerically. But if the shift occurred in the imperial era it is no longer something that depends on the Etruscans, but on the Romans. According to archeology in the settlements in Campania, southern Italy, the Etruscans were most likley very mixed with the Greeks and the sorrounding local populations.

Lemnos was invaded by the Athenians and hellenized by them after 510 BC. Before then they were speaking a language that has a lot of commonality with the Etruscan language. Thucydides mention Tyrrhenians as the pre-Greek inhabitants. One theory is that mercenaries that the Myceneans hired from the Nuragic people of Sardenia, Sicily and other areas of Italy settled there. So there are some indications that Lemnians are related to Etruscans.
 
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Are Nuragic people in any way related, archeologically/linguistically/genetically with the Etruscans? I know there was some connections genetically at least based on the Nuragic L283/Etruscan L283. But that Etruscan L283 was single in number, hence until these new samples come out, it could have been an outlier as far as YDNA is concerned.
Pax you are the likeliest person to know the answer to this, given how read you are in Etruscology. Could you share your two cents?
 
I don't know if there are genetic similarities between Etruscans and Nuragics but surely there have been contacts between Early Bronze Age Tuscany and Sardinia, it's demonstrated by archeology (similar material culture) and also by old physical anthropology: part of the skulls from the Bonnanaro culture resembles the ones from the Rinaldone culture. Obviously aDNA is more reliable

bbd9c448ea47f758311db344f2a00491.jpg


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I don't know if there are genetic similarities between Etruscans and Nuragics but surely there have been contacts between Early Bronze Age Tuscany and Sardinia, it's demonstrated by archeology (similar material culture) and also by old physical anthropology: part of the skulls from the Bonnanaro culture resembles the ones from the Rinaldone culture. Obviously aDNA is more reliable



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bbd9c448ea47f758311db344f2a00491.jpg

I have to read up on those cultures.

Yeah, that is why I was careful when I worded my comment. Since I myself doubt there is genetic similarities, but for sure there was some relations between Sardinia / Etruscans (L283 as far as YDNA goes, if it was not an outlier, again I chose my wording). But then again YDNA is just part of the picture, auDNA should clear the rest of the argument, and I am not really familiar on the auDNA part.
 
Lemnos was invaded by the Athenians and hellenized by them after 510 BC. Before then they were speaking a language that has a lot of commonality with the Etruscan language. Thucydides mention Tyrrhenians as the pre-Greek inhabitants. One theory is that mercenaries that the Mycenean hired from the Nuragic people of Sardenia settled there. So there are some indications that Lemnians are related to Etruscans.

as far as i remember the etruscans had lemnos as a trading stopover, it was never an invasion

Etruscans did take corscia from the greeks and in the end allied with the Greeks against carthagians

here is etruscans in corsica

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-archaeology-corsica-idUSKCN1R81EY
 
But then again YDNA is just part of the picture, auDNA should clear the rest of the argument, and I am not really familiar on the auDNA part.

Well, Etruscans had substantial steppe ancestry while Nuragics Sardinians were pure EEF/WHG so not a great affinity. Hopefully Pax Augusta will answer your question


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Well, Etruscans had substantial steppe ancestry while Nuragics Sardinians were pure EEF/WHG so not a great affinity. Hopefully Pax Augusta will answer your question


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Very good point, thanks for reminding me. Of note should be also that the Nuragic Samples of L283 are from 3300-3400ya, while the Etruscan L283 is from ~2600-700ya. Which makes sense autosomally for the time period, given when the IE peoples/steppe peoples expanded westwards, and how insulated Sardinia was.
 
Yeah, I kind of get that feeling as well. What, it is not enough that these samples existed in the Iron Age? They can't turn around and say, it was from mass immigration from the Imperial era for this sample. People believe what they want to believe. Frankly, I don't give a damn.

Lately I’ve been compelled to push back at times, … too much misinformation disguised as honest opinions, and people fraudulently changing ancient samples Haplogroups (on Wikipedia too), and … more,

… they crossed the line.
 
Couldn't Proto-Tyrrhenians come from Central Europe, somewhere around the Alps given that they descend from Villanovans, and they stem from common root with Rhaetians?

qatbt5X.jpeg
 
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Does not anybody else find it interesting that the closest Greek area to the ETR001 sample is Lemnos? Lemnos has long been associated with Erturia at least linguistically. Was Lemnos an Etruscan colony? Or the reverse? It would be interesting if ancient Lemnos samples were analyzed for closeness.

Greek_Lemnos is quite distant from ETR001 and very distant from Etruscans and Latins. The Imperial-era Roman ETR001 is very similar to Iron Age Latin R437.


bHLMuYY.png


5zn7Xao.png
 
X-DNA (maternal side) one-to-one:

Latin R850 vs ETR001:
Ms1udiU.jpg


Latin R437 vs ETR001:
I6lqQ1A.jpg


Latin R850 vs Latin R437:
mziMK9T.jpg
 

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