Genetic study Genomes from 82 Etruscans and Southern Italians.(800 BCE – 1,000 CE).

Jovialis said:
Here are all of the coordinates in Dodecad K12b format:

Code: 
CAM001,1.38,0.19,1.2,0,47.62,24.58,0,0,6.88,0,17.87,0.27
CAM002,4.72,0.03,0,1.59,40.47,34.19,0,0,4.64,0,13.94,0.44
CAM003,0.93,0.04,0.79,0,49.21,23.83,0,0,7,0.18,16.98,1.04
CSN001,0.74,0,1.6,0.73,46.5,23.83,0,0,7.19,0,19.25,0.16
CSN002,0,0.36,0,0,41.12,32.35,0,0,0,0,26.17,0
CSN003,0.97,0.01,2,0,49.14,21.97,1.05,0,7.95,0.53,15.93,0.45
CSN004,1.49,0,2.17,0.71,51.75,19.41,0.13,0,5.2,0,18.21,0.93
CSN005,1.48,0,4.65,0,39.23,28.19,0.65,0,6.11,0.54,19.16,0
CSN006,3.62,0,0,1.53,45.77,24.02,0.29,0,4.9,0,19.6,0.27
CSN007,0,0,0,0.5,50.29,20.45,0,0,10.86,0,17.91,0
CSN008,4.93,0,0,0.4,43.71,27.95,0,0,4.16,0,18.84,0
CSN009,2.52,0,2.03,0,39.86,27.95,0,0,2.52,0.43,23.93,0.75
CSN010,4.43,0.27,3.49,0,40.36,31.59,0,0,5.33,1.81,11.48,1.25
CSN012,7.01,0,10.55,0,41.84,29.45,0,0,0,0,11.15,0
CSN013,4.87,0,0.54,0,45.93,21.96,0.41,0,5.92,0.25,19.55,0.57
ETR003,10.36,0,2.55,0,30.58,19.47,0,0,10.98,0,25.66,0.41
ETR004,17.44,0,0,0,19.59,19.63,0,0,11.7,0,31.64,0
ETR005,2,0,0,1.54,45.54,20.52,0.17,0,9.35,1.02,18.73,1.13
ETR006,3.87,1.22,0,0,39.39,15.01,0,0,12.67,0,26.45,1.39
ETR007,5.51,0,2.37,1.28,30.11,25.01,0,0,8.81,0,26.92,0
ETR010,4.58,0.05,1.08,0.22,37.3,17.15,0.08,0,9.4,0,29.53,0.6
ETR012,17.52,1.96,0,0,41.58,12.98,3.45,0.35,5.74,0,16.42,0
ETR013,6.64,0.06,1.86,0,35.44,14.98,0,0,9.51,0,31.24,0.28
ETR014,3.51,0,2.87,0,27.31,14.86,0.51,0,14.53,0,36.4,0
MAG001,0.84,0,0,0,47.05,24.88,0.37,0.08,3.46,0.47,22.84,0.02
MAS001,7.2,0.84,4.18,0,26.73,30.23,1.6,0.6,6.25,1.12,21.08,0.18
MAS002,6.49,1.52,3.63,0,23.56,7.82,0,0.48,18.33,0.02,38.16,0
MAS003,2.81,0,8.6,1.47,34.71,11.66,0,1.28,11.86,0,26.84,0.76
MAS004,1.12,0,0.85,0,44.63,29.23,0,0,1.36,1.35,21.46,0
POP001,4.72,0.15,0.86,0,35.02,19.76,0,0,8.74,1.36,28.84,0.55
PRZ001,1.55,0.11,0,0,48.41,23.78,0,0,6.08,0.13,19.22,0.71
PRZ002,0,0,2.6,0.54,47.1,27.43,0,0,4.06,1.06,17.2,0
TAQ001,2.36,0,4.12,0.57,47.15,23.95,0,0,4.6,0,17.25,0
TAQ002,0,0,1.15,0.26,46.51,23.88,0,0,5.81,0,21.27,1.12
TAQ003,5.6,0,2.14,1.3,29.31,17.09,0.1,0.93,11.36,0,31.59,0.58
TAQ004,1.71,0.66,0.95,0.36,48.5,23.89,0,0,5.59,0,17.87,0.48
TAQ005,1.39,0.44,5.14,0,46.29,17.75,0.22,0.33,8.86,0.41,18.68,0.49
TAQ006,1.18,0,3.59,0,42.96,25.05,0.15,0,2.83,0,24.24,0
TAQ007,3.25,0.65,8.19,0,33.36,6.55,0.82,0,13.72,0.07,31.87,1.52
TAQ008,4.27,1.3,0.28,0.84,49.67,21.5,0,0,3.99,0,17.53,0.63
TAQ009,4.13,0.23,2.43,0.82,33.16,19.69,0.14,0,9.54,0,28.81,1.06
TAQ010,0,0,1.32,0.05,48.43,24.81,0.71,0,4.04,0,20.41,0.24
TAQ011,6.51,0.15,1.38,0.03,33.17,19.02,0,1.09,10.21,0,27.5,0.96
TAQ012,3.32,0,1.79,0,51.8,17.96,0.72,0,7.3,0,16.79,0.33
TAQ013,2.83,1.64,1.78,0,46.46,21.33,0,0,6.68,0,19.04,0.23
TAQ015,1.72,0,2.42,0,46.31,21.99,0,0,6.46,0.63,19.66,0.81
TAQ016,2.43,0,1.67,0,46.91,24.12,0.84,0,5.34,0,18.06,0.63
TAQ017,4.08,0,1.96,0,48.92,20.11,0,0,5.6,0,19.12,0.21
TAQ018,0,0,0.47,0,48.53,20.84,0.43,0,6.5,1.43,20.91,0.89
TAQ019,0.49,0,2.18,0,47.66,24.5,0.17,0,5.48,0.04,19.27,0.21
TAQ020,9.02,0.66,1.49,0.5,34.13,18.73,0.12,0,7.43,0,27.92,0
TAQ021,3.74,0,2.51,0,33.22,11.47,2.01,0,12.62,0,34.44,0
TAQ022,5.66,0,2.84,0,34.54,19.74,2.22,0,6.34,0,28.11,0.54
TAQ023,0.11,0,9.86,0,38.6,11.68,0.88,1.34,10.18,0,26.04,1.31
TAQ024,1.55,0.2,4.01,0.27,46.92,21.83,0,0.36,4.57,0,20.29,0
UDC_P,0,0,4.31,0,52.14,29.39,0,0,0.89,0,13.22,0.04
VEN001,5.14,0,3.87,0.01,28.18,17.6,0,0,11.33,2.38,29.77,1.73
VEN002,2.79,8.01,0,12.59,16.3,9.93,3.89,0.01,6.34,27.43,12.71,0
VEN005,6.66,0,4.28,1.53,32.55,10.92,0,0,10.86,0.37,32.83,0
VEN006,8.51,0.54,5.29,0.22,27.14,16.32,0,0,9.76,1.99,30.08,0.16
VEN008,4.55,6.58,0,0,36.17,16.54,2.72,0,8.77,0,23.04,1.63
VEN009,4.96,0,10.9,0.28,29.02,16.26,0,3.03,6.57,0,28.99,0
VEN010,16.14,0,2.12,1.09,37.1,15.42,0,0.05,13.2,0,14.88,0
VEN012,2.86,0,1.41,0.17,24.58,14.71,0,1.75,12.7,5.77,36.03,0.03
VEN013,7.7,0,5.12,0,28.43,14.81,0,0,10.94,1.22,30.32,1.45
VEN014,12.68,0,5.83,0,33.04,0,0,0.24,17.71,1.35,28.74,0.42
VEN015,7.16,0,3.85,0.73,28.62,13.96,0.39,0,13.73,0,30.9,0.64
VEN016,6.56,0,6.02,0,25.63,16.98,0,0,13.65,0.44,30.73,0
VEN017,1.13,1.55,0,0.12,32.91,17.47,3.75,0,12.37,3.07,27.62,0
VEN018,9.33,0,3.69,0,27.33,17.18,0,0,19.59,0,20.74,2.14
VEN021,8.65,0,0.51,3.3,17.54,14.06,0,2.43,21.68,1.47,30.37,0
VEN022,7.04,0,0,5.28,15.13,25.83,0,0.13,20.82,0,25.77,0
VET001,1.52,0,2.24,1.15,42.15,23.87,0,1.18,6.3,0,21.57,0
VET002,0.77,1.24,2.59,0,48.74,18.77,0,0,7.8,0.08,20.03,0
VET003_4,1.33,0,2.66,0,47.08,21.2,0.25,0.26,7.04,0.15,20.03,0
VET005,7.72,0.55,0,0,43.13,37.83,0,1.41,1.61,0,7.74,0
VET007,0,0,2.57,0.68,51.02,20.09,0.22,0,6.74,0.42,17.63,0.63
VET008,0.41,0,8.27,0,38.29,9.06,0,1.75,12.78,0.04,28.42,0.99
VET010,0,0,4.61,0.76,48.22,21.92,0.27,0,3.53,0,20.12,0.57
VET011,0,0,6.57,0,51.11,17.17,0,2.72,3.32,0,19.1,0
VEU001,0,0,1.86,2.69,45.76,22.07,0,0.83,3.79,0,23.01,0
VOL001,0.94,0,1.77,0,44.5,24.66,0.61,0.03,5.61,0,21.4,0.48
Click to expand...

Out of juice, but this is fabulous, Jovialis. Can't wait until my laptop is fixed so I can run these.
 
Angela said:
This is old and well established analysis and data. Do people from anthrogenica to whom you give credence throw out the use of y DNA when this topic comes up? Do you know how little y DNA I and U-106 is found in Italy? Please look it up.If you can't be bothered to look at papers, Maciamo has some maps here.
Click to expand...

We had that debate and one of the last things I did before getting banned was to post the links to Maciamos maps and trying to summing all post-Antiquity haplotypes up for Northern Italy.

You will see that it's predominately in the north, although the percentages are still quite small.Let's add in some history to show why. The Goths were an elite invasion.That's why the Italians still ran everything and not much changed.
Click to expand...

The Goths alone had not that much of an impact, though I would add two things
First, the main reason for their low impact was that they lost, they lost the battles, political power and a lot of manpower.
Second, "the Goths" might have carried more haplotypes than just the regular Germanic ones we know from relatively unmixed Langobards and others. So just checking I1 and R-U106 will miss a lot.

But yes, the Lombards nad even later exchange with the Franks and Germans probably had more impact overall. Though I'm still not sure, if even Sardinia looks like having get some clades from Vandals and others, though their autosomal impact is even way lower there of course.

The Lombards, according to their own historians, numbered 60,000 people including women and children and allied Germanic soldiers who returned home. The majority of their castles were where they entered, in the Veneto, and decreased more and more as they moved south.

By the time they reached the south, whose genetics in relation to ancient Greeks I was discussing, they were an extremely small in number elite. You have to have some grounding in Italian medieval history to know this. It's all reflected in the y DNA.
Click to expand...

Their impact was not huge, but together with the resurgance of more Italic shifted rural people, it caused a "backshift" imho. More so in the North than in the South, which happened to be more South Eastern shifted down to the rural workers in Antiquity and less backshifted afterwards.

As for the paper you quoted, I don't think it's relevant. Individual merchants, travelers, etc., don't change the autosomal profile of a people; only folk migrations do that.
Click to expand...

They seem to have tested local people as well, like they describe in the abstract. By that time there won't be much left from Neolithic and Copper Age remnants, completely unmixed and isolated. So these Italic and Illyrian samples most likely will be a good reference for how the local, pre-Greek colonisation, pre-Roman and Imperial, looked like. So we get both early Greeks and fairly unmixed local Southern Italics to compare with and come to conclusions about how much of whom survived in later populations, or which kind of admixture led to the modern local profile.
This paper could be very relevant for our debate, because the samples we've gotten from the Etruscan one, which being discussed, I guess these samples being mixed and of younger date.
 
Maciamo said:
Does anybody have the locations and dates for the samples?

I suppose that it could be something like that.

- CAM : Campeva, Campania
- CSN : Cesena
- ETR : Etruria? (not a city)
- MAG : Magliano in Toscana?
- MAS : Massa
- POP: Populonia
- PRZ : ?
- TAQ : Tarquinia
- UDC : ?
- VEN : Venturina
- VET : Vetluna (Vetulonia)
- VEU : ?
- VOL : Volterra
Click to expand...

in modern italian codes............. PRZ is Predazzo in trentino lands ............I am not saying this is what the samplers used ....................most likely it is something else

funny how all are towns except ETR
 
@Jovialis
Thanks.

Distance to:RegioX_FTDNA
6.55958078CSN009
6.70651176CSN008
7.05394216CSN005
8.12653678VET001
9.41857739VOL001
9.50136832TAQ006
9.53740007CSN006
10.02872873MAS004
10.16717267CSN013
10.39511424CAM002
10.89931649ETR007
11.10895135TAQ016
11.41516973CSN010
11.49166655CSN001
11.61171822TAQ015
11.65568960TAQ022
11.66901453MAG001
11.67514454TAQ002
11.73450042TAQ013
11.75715952CSN002
12.03864195CAM001
12.06148415TAQ001
12.18138744POP001
12.19683975MAS001
12.25035510TAQ019

Distance to:RegioX_23andMe
6.38270319CSN009
6.94375259CSN008
7.24925513CSN005
8.05755546VET001
9.31043501TAQ006
9.40846427VOL001
9.58750228CSN006
10.09663310MAS004
10.16564804CSN013
10.57309321ETR007
10.89891738CAM002
11.17414426TAQ022
11.22919409TAQ016
11.57910186CSN001
11.61249758MAG001
11.62194476TAQ015
11.67505032TAQ002
11.67978596CSN002
11.73312405POP001
11.75298685TAQ013
11.81703855TAQ020
11.90228129CSN010
12.18224528MAS001
12.18560626TAQ001
12.19382221CAM001

Distance to:Father_23andMe
8.12950183CSN005
8.26902654CSN008
8.52899760CSN009
9.95742437VET001
10.30569260CAM002
10.66195104ETR007
10.81955637MAS001
11.26084366CSN010
11.28917623CSN006
11.37103777VOL001
11.63542436TAQ006
11.76161128CSN013
11.93887348MAS004
12.38346478TAQ022
12.65002372TAQ020
12.74146381TAQ016
12.95895443POP001
13.01693128TAQ011
13.14787435ETR003
13.18374378CSN001
13.33308666TAQ013
13.33481533TAQ015
13.40339136CSN002
13.60880230TAQ002
13.62126279CAM001

Distance to:Mother_23andMe
5.77591551CSN005
5.88793682CSN009
7.19979166CSN008
8.48606505VET001
9.31007519CAM002
9.43255533MAS004
9.49023182TAQ006
9.63698604VOL001
10.37809713CSN002
10.50176652CSN006
10.65904311CSN010
11.00640722ETR007
11.43317979MAS001
11.60437418CSN013
11.73288967TAQ016
11.88189800CSN001
11.95920148TAQ002
11.99474051MAG001
12.03727544PRZ002
12.37801680TAQ015
12.45430849CAM001
12.50604254TAQ019
12.56040206TAQ001
12.75410522TAQ013
12.76533587TAQ022

Distance to:Uncle_FTDNA
6.31205989CSN009
7.72364551CSN005
9.28806761CSN002
9.72897220ETR007
10.06289720MAS001
10.35305269CSN008
10.59917921TAQ006
10.66978913VET001
10.88827810MAS004
11.53146131CAM002
11.89288863VOL001
12.72358047TAQ022
13.24323978POP001
13.33113274CSN010
13.43656950CSN006
13.65741191TAQ009
13.90660634MAG001
14.20497096TAQ002
14.24586958TAQ011
14.36179655TAQ020
14.54303613PRZ002
14.60123967CSN001
14.70098976VEU001
14.70948673CSN013
14.73899590TAQ016

Distance to:In-law_23andMe
8.06387624CSN009
8.32383926ETR007
9.37881123MAS001
9.92019657CSN005
11.06911921CSN002
11.48088411CSN008
11.91251443VET001
11.96145058TAQ022
12.22777167POP001
12.25096731TAQ006
12.74898035TAQ009
12.78804129MAS004
12.89469658CAM002
12.92297953TAQ011
12.92731217TAQ020
13.32747538VOL001
13.80009783ETR003
14.41302883CSN006
14.92587351CSN010
15.20734362MAG001
15.23402442ETR010
15.38699451CSN013
15.58767462TAQ002
15.94874917CSN001
16.01536450VEU001
 
Pax Augusta said:
In Italy we say with a bit of irony "non ci siamo fatti mancare niente". I hope Angela knows how to translate it, I really don't know how to translate it.

With the Longobards and other Germanic populations, it is possible that small groups of Hun-like populations arrived. I would have to check again, their autosomal DNA doesn't seem to suggest that they are.
Click to expand...

I think the closest more literal translation for that in the infinitive would be to not let oneself miss anything.

Of course, if said in an ironic manner I think something like "wow, we really aced that", said in a sarcastic manner, might work, or "Well, that went right over our heads!"' :)
 
torzio said:
maybe Goths brought it to Italy........the Goths lived on the black sea ( north side ) for nearly 400 years

IIRC , there are N samples on croatian islands
Click to expand...

If its real, and it might be rather not, for what its worth the Goths were accompanied most of the time by Sarmatian allies and some Gothic groups seem to have, even independently from that, have additional East Asian admixture. It was rare, it won't be big, but it was present in the Gothic migration groups as well. Even then O isn't really the first haplogroup you expect from steppe people at that time, but who knows - if its real, what it might be not.
 
Maciamo said:
Does anybody have the locations and dates for the samples?
- VEN : Venturina
Click to expand...

Hard to tell but there are people which believe VEN is actually for Venusia (Basilicata). Autosomal results for VEN samples are in favour of more southern position.
 
Dodecad K12b original spreadsheet (for modern populations). Portuguese x Duarte. Coincidences among top 25 (bold and red samples) using as data source all of the coordinates in Dodecad K12b format produced by Jovialis in this thread.

Distance to:Duarte
9.25598725TAQ001
10.20708088TAQ016
10.35823827CSN012
10.40551777CSN010
10.82643524CSN013
10.97969490TAQ015
11.01859338TAQ013
11.06370191CSN006
11.12235587CSN008
11.19851329TAQ024
11.23924375CSN005
11.48003484PRZ002
11.50595498TAQ004
11.53930674CAM001
11.64089773VET001
11.66283842TAQ008
11.81583260CSN001
11.83354131CSN003
11.87767233TAQ017
11.93160090TAQ019
12.00538629VET010
12.08740253VET003_4
12.08808091CAM003
12.10366473VOL001
12.13397297TAQ005

Distance to:Portuguese
9.36387206TAQ001
10.40981748CSN003
10.99955908CSN012
11.08140334TAQ016
11.34956387TAQ008
11.55442340TAQ017
11.61483534TAQ012
11.65807017TAQ004
11.68379647CAM003
11.83439901CAM001
11.87492316TAQ013
12.09912807VET007
12.10893472TAQ005
12.15849909TAQ024
12.17680582PRZ002
12.21815043UDC_P
12.26249159TAQ015
12.27501935CSN004
12.38732013CSN013
12.56578290VET010
12.57835045TAQ019
12.66744252VET003_4
12.87014374CSN010
12.88006599CSN001
13.11284485CSN006


 
Among my top 125 samples, MTA is currently showing three which are dealt with in this thread, and displays as a source the study posted in the following link:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

Alternative link:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6091220/
o5FHfUE.jpg

dDyUs1E.jpg



AyplSP6.jpg

NHSk4kc.jpg



MitpX3L.jpg

qMUWBfz.jpg
 
I’m surprised that ETR003 is from 1000 BC as it is close to me. I would have thought it would have been 1000 AD, or more in line with Imperial Romans.

Post # 261 for my results.
 
Salento said:
I’m surprised that ETR003 is from 1000 BC as it is close to me. I would have thought it would have been 1000 AD, or more in line with Imperial Romans.

Post # 261 for my results.
Click to expand...

I found one more sample among my matches. I have no idea why they reference the article by Mathieson et al 2018 and how they date and label these samples. One more MTA mystery. :unsure::grin:

AxtwfcQ.jpg

k3PXBZ9.jpg
 
Duarte said:
I found one more sample among my matches. I have no idea why they reference the article by Mathieson et al and how they date and label these samples. One more MTA mystery. :unsure::grin:

AxtwfcQ.jpg

k3PXBZ9.jpg
Click to expand...



MTA is quite incredible, is MTA labelling all the 82 samples as Etruscans? There is no information yet on the samples.
 
Salento said:
I’m surprised that ETR003 is from 1000 BC as it is close to me. I would have thought it would have been 1000 AD, or more in line with Imperial Romans.

Post # 261 for my results.
Click to expand...


There is no information on the samples yet. That ETR003 is from 1000 BC is another piece of information invented by MTA. MTA once again proves to be a tool run by unserious people.

The ETR samples are most likely from the Etruria region in the Imperial Roman era. ETR001 has already been published in a 2020 study, and was in fact a Roman woman from 200-400 AD.
 
Pax Augusta said:
There is no information on the samples yet. That ETR003 is from 1000 BC is another piece of information invented by MTA. MTA once again proves to be a tool run by unserious people.

The ETR samples are most likely from the Etruria region in the Imperial Roman era. ETR001 has already been published in a 2020 study, and was in fact a Roman woman from 200-400 AD.
Click to expand...

…. I tend to agree with you, but then again why would they make up the dates

I assumed that being a business they have access to the latest data not yet accessibile to the public. … hopefully we shall find out.
 
Salento said:
…. I tend to agree with you, but then again why would they make up the dates

I assumed that being a business they have access to the latest data not yet accessibile to the public. … hopefully we shall find out.
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I honesty don't think they have access to the data. This is not the first time MTA has made up information and labels.

Dating ETR003 as 1000 BC is inconsistent with the published abstract and the samples span from 800 BC to 1000 AD. Among other things, the Etruscan chronology starts from 900 BC, 1000 BC is still the Bronze Age and in this era there are Proto-Etruscans who are still characterized archaeologically by the Proto-Villanovan culture.


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