E-V13-->E-Z5016-->E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) North African (Algerian) Subclade?

[Gilgamesh]

Hello Everyone,
I am a carrier of a rare E-V13 subclade E-V13-->...............>E-Z5016-->E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) TMRCA : 3100 years
All my matches on Yfull are Portuguese Guys from Azore isles, they are all under E-BY4611 TMRCA : 1900 years
My background : My Dad is Algerian (Medea region), my mom is Russian, no recent European known ancestors from Dad side, (no surprise,my autosomal is 50/50 North African/Russian according 23andMe),same thing according to Ancestry,(i have a small 1% "Sardinian").
Someone have any idea about the origin of this Iberian/North African subclade E-Y138701 (E-BY4610)?

PS : On FTDNA Haplotree 8 samples are under E-Y138701 (E-BY4610) : 6 Portuguese, 1 Spaniard, 1 Algerian (This is not my sample,as me,he is E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) carrier)

[Riverman]

Hello Everyone,
I am a carrier of a rare E-V13 subclade E-V13-->...............>E-Z5016-->E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) TMRCA : 3100 years
All my matches on Yfull are Portuguese Guys from Azore isles, they are all under E-BY4611 TMRCA : 1900 years
My background : My Dad is Algerian (Medea region), my mom is Russian, no recent European known ancestors from Dad side, (no surprise,my autosomal is 50/50 North African/Russian according 23andMe),same thing according to Ancestry,(i have a small 1% "Sardinian").
Someone have any idea about the origin of this Iberian/North African subclade E-Y138701 (E-BY4610)?

PS : On FTDNA Haplotree 8 samples are under E-Y138701 (E-BY4610) : 6 Portuguese, 1 Spaniard, 1 Algerian (This is not my sample,as me,he is E-Y138701* (E-BY4610*) carrier)

With that TMRCA, there are a lot of options from the Early Iron Age to modern Colonial times. Quite likely it hopped with some Greco-Romans or converted Iberians to Africa imho, that's probably the most likely scenario.

[Maciamo]

The history of E-V13 is one of the most mysterious at the moment. The consensus if that E-V13 arose in Southeast Europe among E-M78 Neolithic farmers, but remained a minor lineage until about 4500 years ago, when it suddenly started expanding around central Europe. But after that nothing is clear. We still don't know exactly when it arrived in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Britain... So far it hasn't been found in these countries during the Bronze or Iron Age. As it seems to have spread very quickly from the Balkans and Carpathians to Western Europe, I would think that the Goths brought it with them from Ukraine and the Balkans to Italy, France and Iberia. Maybe the Vandals also carried E-V13 lineages and brought it to the Maghreb. Your E-V13>Z5016 lineage is found in Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Turkey, Russia (Tatarstan), Italy, Switzerland, Austria, South Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Algeria... That's a lot of places and the Goths seem to be the only historical people who went to all these places.

[Riverman]

The history of E-V13 is one of the most mysterious at the moment. The consensus if that E-V13 arose in Southeast Europe among E-M78 Neolithic farmers, but remained a minor lineage until about 4500 years ago, when it suddenly started expanding around central Europe. But after that nothing is clear. We still don't know exactly when it arrived in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Britain... So far it hasn't been found in these countries during the Bronze or Iron Age. As it seems to have spread very quickly from the Balkans and Carpathians to Western Europe, I would think that the Goths brought it with them from Ukraine and the Balkans to Italy, France and Iberia. Maybe the Vandals also carried E-V13 lineages and brought it to the Maghreb. Your E-V13>Z5016 lineage is found in Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Turkey, Russia (Tatarstan), Italy, Switzerland, Austria, South Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Algeria... That's a lot of places and the Goths seem to be the only historical people who went to all these places.

That's a viable scenario about which I thought too. I would guess that E-V13 will eventually pop up among Celts too though, just in low numbers. So it could have been in Iberia since the Iron Age, even though that's just a hypothetical scenario at the moment, while the presence of E-V13 among Goths and generally East Germanic people is a proven fact. Its also likely that the allied Sarmatian tribes and clans did carry it as well, so in the migration period, many East Germanics and their allies (Roman provincials, especially those of Daco-Thracian descent, Iranian-Sarmatians, possibly early Slavs also) brought some E-V13 to Iberia and possibly North Africa.
However, in the Roman era E-V13 was already present in Italy too.

[Hawk]

The history of E-V13 is one of the most mysterious at the moment. The consensus if that E-V13 arose in Southeast Europe among E-M78 Neolithic farmers, but remained a minor lineage until about 4500 years ago, when it suddenly started expanding around central Europe. But after that nothing is clear. We still don't know exactly when it arrived in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Britain... So far it hasn't been found in these countries during the Bronze or Iron Age. As it seems to have spread very quickly from the Balkans and Carpathians to Western Europe, I would think that the Goths brought it with them from Ukraine and the Balkans to Italy, France and Iberia. Maybe the Vandals also carried E-V13 lineages and brought it to the Maghreb. Your E-V13>Z5016 lineage is found in Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Turkey, Russia (Tatarstan), Italy, Switzerland, Austria, South Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Algeria... That's a lot of places and the Goths seem to be the only historical people who went to all these places.

The E-V13 mutation arose somewhere in between Italy and Spain, up North of this trajectory, i am talking about Late Neolithic, there is signs among Michelsbergers Culture where it was the only case in Neolithic Europe where E-M78 was living in numbers, all other cases were lonely wolfs among G2a majority. One strong contender which mimicks the sudden appearance and acts as a bridge is the Hügelgräberkultur, a specific group of it, either them or latter joiners to Hügelgräberkultur when Encrusted Culture from Western Hungary mixed with them.

A candidate culture which acts like a bridge between Alps and Carpathians is the safest bet IMO. And Hügelgräberkultur && Encrusted Pottery Culture fit that bet, they arose during Middle Bronze Age which caused a huge turmoil in South Carpathians and then pushing down in the Balkans during Late Bronze Age.

[Riverman]

The E-V13 mutation arose somewhere in between Italy and Spain, up North of this trajectory, i am talking about Late Neolithic, there is signs among Michelsbergers Culture where it was the only case in Neolithic Europe where E-M78 was living in numbers, all other cases were lonely wolfs among G2a majority. One strong contender which mimicks the sudden appearance and acts as a bridge is the Hügelgräberkultur, a specific group of it, either them or latter joiners to Hügelgräberkultur when Encrusted Culture from Western Hungary mixed with them.

A candidate culture which acts like a bridge between Alps and Carpathians is the safest bet IMO. And Hügelgräberkultur && Encrusted Pottery Culture fit that bet, they arose during Middle Bronze Age which caused a huge turmoil in South Carpathians and then pushing down in the Balkans during Late Bronze Age.

The incrusted groups got strongly influenced by the Channelled ware, so my bet is still with the cremation horizon rather than tumulus culture. But I think we both agree that incrused ware groups are supposed to have a high frequency of E-V13. The open question is rather from which group they got it from, because that was a fused culture with different roots, of which Belegis-Gava is for sure not the least important.

Compare with:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post626679

The problem is that in the formation area of Belegis-Gava and Incrused Ware were different elements present and we can impossibly say who contributed E-V13. Might be one small group which rose to prominence fairly quickly and if cremating, will stay below the radar for the much of the crucial time.

[Hawk]

The incrusted groups got strongly influenced by the Channelled ware, so my bet is still with the cremation horizon rather than tumulus culture. But I think we both agree that incrused ware groups are supposed to have a high frequency of E-V13. The open question is rather from which group they got it from, because that was a fused culture with different roots, of which Belegis-Gava is for sure not the least important.

Compare with:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post626679

The problem is that in the formation area of Belegis-Gava and Incrused Ware were different elements present and we can impossibly say who contributed E-V13. Might be one small group which rose to prominence fairly quickly and if cremating, will stay below the radar for the much of the crucial time.

[Gilgamesh]

The history of E-V13 is one of the most mysterious at the moment. The consensus if that E-V13 arose in Southeast Europe among E-M78 Neolithic farmers, but remained a minor lineage until about 4500 years ago, when it suddenly started expanding around central Europe. But after that nothing is clear. We still don't know exactly when it arrived in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Britain... So far it hasn't been found in these countries during the Bronze or Iron Age. As it seems to have spread very quickly from the Balkans and Carpathians to Western Europe, I would think that the Goths brought it with them from Ukraine and the Balkans to Italy, France and Iberia. Maybe the Vandals also carried E-V13 lineages and brought it to the Maghreb. Your E-V13>Z5016 lineage is found in Scandinavia, Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, Turkey, Russia (Tatarstan), Italy, Switzerland, Austria, South Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Algeria... That's a lot of places and the Goths seem to be the only historical people who went to all these places.

Many Thanks for all theses explanations, hopefully, more samples will be added on Yfull and FTDNA haplotree in the next fews years to figure out who many paternal lineages expanded during different eras.

[Riverman]

Many Thanks for all theses explanations, hopefully, more samples will be added on Yfull and FTDNA haplotree in the next fews years to figure out who many paternal lineages expanded during different eras.

On Anthrogenica ph2ter created graphical illustrations for TMRCA statistics. They repeat what is clearly visible on YFull as well, namely that the main and major expansion of E-V13 happened in the LBA-EIA transition, especially the Early Iron Age:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post785065

We have to assume that Belegiš-Gáva and Incrusted Ware, also the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Daco-Thracians in generall, were heavily E-V13. The question is just where Belegiš-Gáva and Incrusted Ware got it from, this is still an ongoing debate and possibly hard to answer, because just like Slavs, it might have been a fairly small group which expanded rapidly with Iron technology.
If you want to associate E-V13 with a single event and technology, its primarily metal working and especially iron technology. Related cultural complexes were among the first, worldwide, to produce iron weapons and tools of higher quality and quantity in the Carpathian sphere.

[Gilgamesh]

On Anthrogenica ph2ter created graphical illustrations for TMRCA statistics. They repeat what is clearly visible on YFull as well, namely that the main and major expansion of E-V13 happened in the LBA-EIA transition, especially the Early Iron Age:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post785065

We have to assume that Belegi�-G�va and Incrusted Ware, also the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Daco-Thracians in generall, were heavily E-V13. The question is just where Belegi�-G�va and Incrusted Ware got it from, this is still an ongoing debate and possibly hard to answer, because just like Slavs, it might have been a fairly small group which expanded rapidly with Iron technology.
If you want to associate E-V13 with a single event and technology, its primarily metal working and especially iron technology. Related cultural complexes were among the first, worldwide, to produce iron weapons and tools of higher quality and quantity in the Carpathian sphere.

Thanks for sharing, the parallel between E-V13 and R-M458 evolution is actually interesting.