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Thread: Arabo-Persian Gulf Basin possible homeland of Basal Eurasians?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Were Upper Paleolithic Europeans not overall robust and heavily built folks? The Cro Magnons for example, had a strong and hardy robust build.The body was generally heavy,strong and muscular, thus they were much stronger than modern people.

    Here is a reconstruction of an Iberomaurasian individual, and he has a broadly Western Eurasian morphology, and to me, he's not particularly robust nor archaic looking. So, how realistic do you think this reconstruction is?









    intresting construction
    we dont know what mechta -afalou y haplogroup was
    but the remains of iberomaurusian from morocco taforalt where e-m78
    in the neolithic site of ifri n'Amr or moussa we see for the first time e-L19 the ancestor of e-m81 cases in
    morocco region


    p.s
    it is more likely though that mechta afalou were e-m78 like the taforalt remains
    phenotype:
    gracile- med

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    In my literature I have found a large variety of height for different Palaeolithic individuals depending on the site of excavation.

    The robustness of the skeleton is not always the same as muscle mass or effectiveness of muscles.
    For example Neanderthals are always thought to be robust, but their genetics show a different picture, they don't have the SNPs for strongman, but sprinters.
    In contrast neolithic LBK or FCB/TRB individuals display often a muscular and oxygen effective type of muscles in their SNPs but they where often described petite by literature based on their skeletons.
    A Yamnaya individual in contrast showed more of the sprinter SNPs, not strongman.

    We should also think about that there are more genetic factors then known SNPs for athletic performance.
    Another explanation for robust skeletons without genetic evidence could be other childhood behaviours, dietary factors, intensive exercise/working.

    I have analysed the samples of Iberomaurusians for phenotypic SNPs and the following can be said about them:

    -A round face, not so much distance between nose and mouth
    -Small forehead
    -African/European Eyelids, not Asian
    -More likely a hook nose, slim, not broad
    -Small mouth, bigger underlip
    -Probably hazel eyes
    -Dark brown skin
    -Probably dark curly or wavy hair (only one SNP I am using for prediction of this trait is present in the samples)

    Not enough SNPs for predicting athletic performance completely. But it is probably more sprinter or middle type.

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    WHat are based the SNP's for sprinters or strongmen on? I doubt our knowledge is so advanced. Even if science is going on and surely filling the holes progressively. Maybe I 'm not informed enough? And runners can be classed in "sprinters" and "marathonians" too.
    That said, I agree for distinction between skeletons and muscles, even if some correspondances can exist. And genetics is not only at play here, as you say, but way of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Hmm, it's a bit confusing to be honest, depending on what context they mean.

    On Dzudzuana pre-print Basal Eurasian is rather closer to Crown Eurasian which a common parent component split from ANA.

    I visualize Basal Eurasians to look rather smaller in stature and more petite, a precursor to Proto-Mediterranean race. While ANA was the opposite, Taforalt/Iberomarusian/Kiffian and Paleolithic Egyptian skeletons are extremely robust and tall. Average Taforalt male height 15k years ago was 178cm with some of them reaching 2m height.

    This dude is in Egyptian museum, he is a Paleolithic Egyptian, i suppose his Y-DNA was either E-M35 or downstream E-M78 and he was atleast 70% ANA.



    Compare them with Iberomaurusians/Taforalt cranium.





    Natufian crania full with Basal Eurasian looks different, more refined, petite.

    For features, genetics kept apart, the "Egyptian" HG evocates a "super"-'Combe-Capelle' type, very close.
    The 'taforalt' one seems closer to the classical 'cro-magnon'.
    The 'natufian' seems a reduction of a version of 'croma', maybe a form we found later in neolithic Egyptians and in composition among Long-Barrows people. All that if I can rely on the labellings of these three pictues. Interesting ATW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    WHat are based the SNP's for sprinters or strongmen on? I doubt our knowledge is so advanced. Even if science is going on and surely filling the holes progressively. Maybe I 'm not informed enough? And runners can be classed in "sprinters" and "marathonians" too.
    That said, I agree for distinction between skeletons and muscles, even if some correspondances can exist. And genetics is not only at play here, as you say, but way of life.
    https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/act...cle-type-gene/

    I think the Actn3 gene is one that has been identified with Speed/Fast twitch muscles (2 copies), some speed and strength and some endurance (1 copy of each), maybe or perhaps best combination if you played sports? or non Speed (i.e. no fast twitch muscles), 2 copies of the Non Fast Switch alleles which is purely endurance related.

    That is my reading of this article and interpretation, not sure mine is accurate but there is some research in this gene that identifies this Actn3 gene impacting Speed on the one hand and endurance on the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/act...cle-type-gene/

    I think the Actn3 gene is one that has been identified with Speed/Fast twitch muscles (2 copies), some speed and strength and some endurance (1 copy of each), maybe or perhaps best combination if you played sports? or non Speed (i.e. no fast twitch muscles), 2 copies of the Non Fast Switch alleles which is purely endurance related.

    That is my reading of this article and interpretation, not sure I mine is accurate but there is some research in this gene that identifies a gene for Speed on the one hand and endurance on the other.
    Thanks for info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks for info.
    Your welcome, best regards.

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    My favourites: rs1800795 rs1815739 rs1799722 rs2854464

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    I would be very thankfull
    To see a natufian facial construction
    Naturaly as some of those natufians were
    e-z830
    The grandfather of e-m34-m84 to which i belong...

    P.s
    Maybe they looked like horners to some extent

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    I would be very thankfull
    To see a natufian facial construction
    Naturaly as some of those natufians were
    e-z830
    The grandfather of e-m34-m84 to which i belong...

    P.s
    Maybe they looked like horners to some extent
    I'd imagine Natufians looked somewhat similar to Ancient Egyptians.

    Genetically, the ancient Egyptians had a tiny bit more Anatolian_N, and a small amount of CHG.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I've had the pleasure of seeing this in person at the museum in Berlin:


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I agree with Jovialis, i would assume Ancient Egyptians depictions to be the last Natufian-like phenotypes we see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    For features, genetics kept apart, the "Egyptian" HG evocates a "super"-'Combe-Capelle' type, very close.
    The 'taforalt' one seems closer to the classical 'cro-magnon'.
    The 'natufian' seems a reduction of a version of 'croma', maybe a form we found later in neolithic Egyptians and in composition among Long-Barrows people. All that if I can rely on the labellings of these three pictues. Interesting ATW.
    It must be due to convergent evolution, North Africa of Paleolithic/Mesolithic climate was like South Europe of today. Add also the more Eurasian autosomal DNA they acquired through female line ( U6a, though this is enigmatic to me).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'd imagine Natufians looked somewhat similar to Ancient Egyptians.

    Genetically, the ancient Egyptians had a tiny bit more Anatolian_N, and a small amount of CHG.

    Sound logical

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    Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.

    Some strange examples are early Neolithic samples from Greece who resemble Hunters in their appearance or Globular Amphora samples who resembles also a more Hunter-like appearance, despite of their farmer-like admixture. This could be due to early admixture with HG populations.
    For some neolithic samples the actual calculators show no HG admixture, others can find it.

    I came out as northern German by most calculators, my Y haplogorup is I1, but my appearance does not resemble this:

    Yamnaya(73%) LBK Alföld (73%)
    Hittite(70%) Anatolia HG (70%) Iron Gates HG (70%)

    My wife (Danish by calculators) fits much better:

    VikingsRus (76%)
    Maglemose(75%) GlobularAmphora (75%)

    She has dark blonde, straight hair, long face, upturned nose,blue eyes and light but little darker skin, very dolicocephalic.
    Me on the opposite: Brown wavy hair, broad face, hooked nose, hazel eyes, very light skin, brachycephalic.

    Trait analysis for Natufians:

    -Round face, not much distance between nose and mouth
    -European/African Eyelids, not Asian
    -Upturned nose like in many Africans, but slim
    -Thin lips
    -Light brown or hazel eyes
    -Mid brown skin
    -Curly or wavy dark hair

    Perhaps similar to Somali/Ethiopian?
    But almost half of all SNPs for trait prediction are missing.

    Ancient Egyptian samples are rare, I am just converting some fastq to bam but the whole quality of Egyptian samples I could find is low, perhaps too low for analysis. Lets see in a few days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.

    Some strange examples are early Neolithic samples from Greece who resemble Hunters in their appearance or Globular Amphora samples who resembles also a more Hunter-like appearance, despite of their farmer-like admixture. This could be due to early admixture with HG populations.
    For some neolithic samples the actual calculators show no HG admixture, others can find it.

    I came out as northern German by most calculators, my Y haplogorup is I1, but my appearance does not resemble this:

    Yamnaya(73%) LBK Alföld (73%)
    Hittite(70%) Anatolia HG (70%) Iron Gates HG (70%)

    My wife (Danish by calculators) fits much better:

    VikingsRus (76%)
    Maglemose(75%) GlobularAmphora (75%)

    She has dark blonde, straight hair, long face, upturned nose,blue eyes and light but little darker skin, very dolicocephalic.
    Me on the opposite: Brown wavy hair, broad face, hooked nose, hazel eyes, very light skin, brachycephalic.

    Trait analysis for Natufians:

    -Round face, not much distance between nose and mouth
    -European/African Eyelids, not Asian
    -Upturned nose like in many Africans, but slim
    -Thin lips
    -Light brown or hazel eyes
    -Mid brown skin
    -Curly or wavy dark hair

    Perhaps similar to Somali/Ethiopian?
    But almost half of all SNPs for trait prediction are missing.

    Ancient Egyptian samples are rare, I am just converting some fastq to bam but the whole quality of Egyptian samples I could find is low, perhaps too low for analysis. Lets see in a few days.
    What study are they from? I would be interested to see them when they're done processing.

    Also, what tool are you using for FASTQ to BAM conversion? I would like to know a good one to use.

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    Code:
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134,0.83,0,8.24,0,15.48,0,0,6.5,32.25,0,36.69,0
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2888,0.23,0,10.62,0,15.29,0,0,6.3,32.71,0,34.85,0
    BA_Ancient_Egyptian:JK2911,1.61,0.82,7.99,0.95,12.77,0,0.32,6.44,33.51,0.06,35.53,0
    This is from VJ Schuenemann et al. 2017

    They were ascertainable with BAM files using the beta version of WGSextract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I’ve read the supplementary data from the Iberomaurasian study. All seven Taforalt individuals lacked the genes for light skin, but they carried the genes for Europid straight hair. So, the Iberomaurasians were most likely dark skinned, albeit with straight hair.
    We can't rely too much on that, because we don't know the old genetic architecture. Its probably safe to assume they were significantly darker than modern Europeans, but I wouldn't describe it as "dark skinned", because this could be interpretated like if they had Subsaharan skin tones, which is very, very unlikely. Rather they were just darker than modern Europeans, probably somewhat more in the lighter to medium South Asian spectrum. But I would really wonder if they would have been significantly darker than Khoisan people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.
    I'd say the opposite is also true, looking like a population doesn't mean you are genetically similar them. For example the Onge may look like SSA, but are massively distant to them in genetic affinity. In fact, SSA are some of the most distant to them in the world.



    Dodecad Globe 13

    Code:
    ONG-1,5.93,0.83,0.83,0.72,1.24,28.85,0.25,11.64,0.18,0 .58,1.15,45.31,2.49
    ONG-4,4.55,1.45,0.62,0.6,1.36,28.62,0.22,12.66,0,1.31, 1.45,44.88,2.29
    ONG-8,4.46,1.18,0.74,0.52,0.77,28.16,0.77,12.07,0.93,1 .06,0.57,46.14,2.63
    ONG-9,4.52,0.78,1.21,0.64,1.65,29.5,0.5,11.78,0.64,0.5 ,0.69,45.32,2.26
    ONG-12,5.15,0.58,0.77,0.93,2,29.04,0.2,12.12,0,0,2,45. 01,2.19
    ONG-14,4.45,0.07,1.01,0.54,1.32,29.63,1.63,12.27,0.38, 0.61,1.36,44.43,2.3
    Distance to: ONG-1
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    83.25617575 Ethiopian_Jews
    83.45753890 Ethiopians
    83.51413533 Aragon_1KG
    83.69513009 WOLAYTA_Pa
    83.80901384 Georgian_D
    84.11738703 Abhkasians_Y
    84.27679871 OROMO_Pa
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    84.53933286 Mbuti_Pygmies
    84.69044102 Khwe_Sch
    84.78106392 Mixed_Germanic_D
    85.20868970 CEU30
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    85.72990610 German_D
    85.81014392 Cornwall_1KG
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    86.03290533 Kent_1KG
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    86.28063978 Georgians
    86.33127359 Saudis
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    86.58079926 Orcadian
    86.71685419 Irish_D
    86.87610028 Mordovians_Y
    86.99586657 Orkney_1KG
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    87.25259194 Ukranians_Y
    87.57940854 SOMALI_Pa
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    87.86676732 Russian
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  20. #45
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^I believe this is driven by convergent evolution. If it can happen between completely different species in completely different time periods, it can happen between modern humans living in the same time period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I believe this is driven by convergent evolution. If it can happen between completely different species in completely different time periods, it can happen between modern humans living in the same time period.
    Razib Khan also makes the same example here:

    https://www.discovermagazine.com/hea...lution-happens

    I also think this is why despite only receiving a small of amount of DNA from Neanderthals, modern Europeans have some similar traits to them that evolved independently. Nevertheless, some phenotypic traits were indeed inherited from them. My brother for example is shorter than me, because he inherited traits for Neanderthal spinal cord, at least according to 23andme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'd say the opposite is also true, looking like a population doesn't mean you are genetically similar them. For example the Onge may look like SSA, but are massively distant to them in genetic affinity. In fact, SSA are some of the most distant to them in the world.
    Yes that's true, but I think more in that sense that our awareness of different traits we've learned from our childhood is blinding us. A special trait we note and automatically associating with a population like the coarse hair of Andaman Islanders and very dark skin with Africans.

    On the genetic level of traits Andaman Islanders don't posses so much similar traits to Africans. The highest matches I found for them where modern South Asians (72%) and Australians (72%). All Africans is only (65%) Bantu (62%).
    But I must note, that I don't have any Samoan or other Oceanian samples ready for analysis to date but they can be found on ENA by using the names on the map:https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map...6/51.000/2.000 I think they could also make good matches to Andaman but who knows.

    There is also the thing with some things like single SNPs and their Allele can alter whole look of a person, making other SNPs “less visible” like with red hair SNPs or Samoan special SNP for developing bulky statue, or the neanderthal skull shape SNP rs72931809.
    Maybe the Andaman Islanders posess a special trait which makes them look more SSA, but perhaps it is our own learned awareness of human facial shapes, that makes them look so.
    I remember a TV documentary about Afro-Australians(Africans in Australia) and there where aboriginal Australians in the documentary saying "They are people of our land!" and i just facepalmed.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What study are they from? I would be interested to see them when they're done processing.

    Also, what tool are you using for FASTQ to BAM conversion? I would like to know a good one to use.
    Converter:https://github.com/teepean/SRA_FASTQ-to-BAM-Kit(But I am using an older version from 2015 because I had problemswith the new one)

    The converter can be used by using the windows console, I don't know how it is called in English, in German it is called “Eingabeaufforderung” You have to do following:

    1. D:
    2. cd D:\SRA_FASTQ to BAMKit
    3.fq2bam ERR1937833_2.fastq

    And it starts. Depending on the file size it can take from many hours to days, even a week.
    If a file is named “blabla.fastq.gz” you have to delete the “.gz” like this: “blabla.fastq” to make it work.
    There are often bam files on ENA, but sometimes they are damaged and you have to convert fastq to bam by yourself, or sadly whole upload bam and fastq are damaged and cannot be used.

    Egyptian DNA files:

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB15464

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB20294

  24. #49
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doggerland View Post
    Having the same admixture or clustering with a population, does not automatically mean looking like this population.

    Some strange examples are early Neolithic samples from Greece who resemble Hunters in their appearance or Globular Amphora samples who resembles also a more Hunter-like appearance, despite of their farmer-like admixture. This could be due to early admixture with HG populations.
    For some neolithic samples the actual calculators show no HG admixture, others can find it.

    I came out as northern German by most calculators, my Y haplogorup is I1, but my appearance does not resemble this:

    Yamnaya(73%) LBK Alföld (73%)
    Hittite(70%) Anatolia HG (70%) Iron Gates HG (70%)

    My wife (Danish by calculators) fits much better:

    VikingsRus (76%)
    Maglemose(75%) GlobularAmphora (75%)

    She has dark blonde, straight hair, long face, upturned nose,blue eyes and light but little darker skin, very dolicocephalic.
    Me on the opposite: Brown wavy hair, broad face, hooked nose, hazel eyes, very light skin, brachycephalic.

    Trait analysis for Natufians:

    -Round face, not much distance between nose and mouth
    -European/African Eyelids, not Asian
    -Upturned nose like in many Africans, but slim
    -Thin lips
    -Light brown or hazel eyes
    -Mid brown skin
    -Curly or wavy dark hair


    Perhaps similar to Somali/Ethiopian?
    But almost half of all SNPs for trait prediction are missing.

    Ancient Egyptian samples are rare, I am just converting some fastq to bam but the whole quality of Egyptian samples I could find is low, perhaps too low for analysis. Lets see in a few days.
    Could you tell us the source for your analysis of Natufian traits?

    The skulls with which I'm familiar are the plastered ones, the most famous of which are the ones from Jericho, and date to 9700 years ago, which is still within the frame for Natufian, although one label I saw was PPN.


    I think this one very much resembles Nefertiti, whom I think was absolutely stunning.

    Here are some more:


    Nothing can be deduced from the head shape because I think most of the archaeologists are agreed that there are signs of head binding in infancy and childhood.

    I don't see a round face in this case, nor a turned up nose nor a hooked nose, which I think is more Caucasus related in terms of ancestry. That long, straight nose with a broader tip married to a small mouth was around during the Classical Era, and is still around now. I have a version of it myself, as does the English actor Richard Armitage.





    He likes his elegant profile; he does these shots a lot. :)



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    There are some things to note, like the skulls are covered with a clay mask. They don't represent the natural look of the people when they where alive. Second problem is that there are not much samples from Natufians, so if someone in the population looked different, this cannot be noticed.

    The traits I described for Natufians are based on available samples (ENA) and if there where more samples one day, the whole look could be somewhat different, because more SNPs can be used. For example, the SNPs for nostril size are missing, we only know that they had an upturned, slim nose and not a straight or hooked nose, or a broad one. It could also be, that they had broad nostrils, or slim, we don't know. There are also many SNPs about the facial shape missing, but available data suggest a more round face shape, in that sense that the mouth is closer to the Vomer Bone, a larger distance would suggest a longer looking face.

    For example:

    Long face: https://www.milkandblush.com/wordpre...aces-Ombre.jpg
    Round face: http://hairstyles-galaxy.com/wp-cont...ace-Shapes.jpg

    But we should not forget that there also could be people with straight nose or hooked nose in Natufian population, but we have no samples from them. For today's populations its easy, you can look at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/snp/and get population data for every single SNP, how common they are. But if you are using ancient populations you don't have many samples and can only use that what is available, often its only one sample.

    The SNPs im using are my “Trade Secret” and I developed this composition over some years. They are selected to be compatible with 23andme and ftdna data, to compare them to actual living people and populations.
    For example I'm not testing for special traits like red hair, because they are too rare in ancient populations. I also selected the traits for ethnic divergence, SNPs that are found to be same alleles in almost every population with 90% or more, are excluded, because they are not ideal for showing differences.
    They can all be found on GWAS Catalog and in some studies on the Internet.
    The eye colour prediction is based on the SNPs from Gedmatch eye colour prediction feature, the feature is no more available on Gedmatch itself any more.

    The whole idea was based on this post on Eurogenes:https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/...an-facial.html
    I wanted to have acalculator like this, but it never came, so I decided to make my own.

    I can imagine that someone else will come up with the idea of doing something like that at some point, maybe also to make money with it. There are already many services in the Internet that determine people's DNA traits.

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