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The phenotip description in my mind from the snps you mention sound logical...
P s
What is the main snp for nose
Shape ?
ancestery :
mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]
"Know where you came from and where you are going."
Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
I already said that the skull shape itself is unknown because there is evidence of head binding in infancy.Originally Posted by Doggerland
A clay mask or wax one or plaster ones, as in the ones which were done throughout European history, are the best indication of what people looked like, not a program based on a very small number of snps, particularly as you don't list the snps you are using, so their reliability can't be checked, and with such old samples we're not going to get all the snps.
No one had to tell me this is Abraham Lincoln and George Washington:
This is clearly what Dante looked like. Chiellini has the nose; I guess the genes are still floating around Toscana. :)
Henri IV's death mask compared to a painting of him. It's undeniably the same man.
Lenin:
In addition, there are people in the same area who look a lot like those masks.
So, I'll stick with the masks.
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
I skimmed this preprint a couple months ago and I'm not sure I'm convinced. I don't think their findings are enough to warrant overturning our current understanding of admixture in the region. The Gulf has significantly more ANE admixture than Yemen.
I bet the Basal Eurasian ancestry in Arabians is why they look so different from West Asians from farther north. When I first met Saudis, Yemenis, and Yemeni Jews, I was surprised by how rare the large, aquiline noses I'm used to seeing in the Middle East were among them. In fact I would say especially their women have upturned noses more frequently than hooked (though women of all ethnicities trend towards that more than men). Henry Field published anthropometric craniofacial measurements on a number of groups from Iraq and Iran and it's interesting to compare the Bedouin, Marsh Arabs, Mandeans, Iraqi soldiers, etc.
In the genetic source populations used online (esp. in GEDmatch) there are populations called "Bedouin A" and "Bedouin B", both appear to be Negev Bedouin from southern Israel. The Bedouin B in particular always scores ~90% "Southwest Asian" or "Near Eastern" or whatever on every calculator used.
This paper by Deven Vyas (GENETIC INFERENCES ON HUMAN EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY IN SOUTHERN ARABIA AND THE LEVANT) points to "BedouinB" and Yemenis from the Mahra governorate as the likely descendants of the Basal Eurasians. They consistently have the highest levels of Arabian Peninsula-specific ancestry that is found admixed into other populations (as "Neolithic"-related in Euros for instance).
Then there are the figures from Ain Ghazal in Jordan. This is from I believe the PPNC culture. Note how they all have cute little upturned noses.
Attachment 12802
This is from the 1960s and compares the anthropometric variables of inhabitants of two places in northern and southern Iran, respectively. It can be expected that the northern population would be representative of more ANE and CHG admixture, and the southern more Basal Eurasian. The southern population is dolichocephalic, smaller-faced, and has shorter and wider noses. The northern one is brachycephalic, has longer and wider faces, and longer and narrower noses.
Well then, clearly PPNB people had different kinds of noses. There is nothing short and upturned about the noses at Jericho. Or perhaps their artwork didn't always resemble them accurately.
I'd also be very interested to see Bedouins and Saudis with short, upturned noses.
This is what the Saudis I've seen look like:
There are also, of course, men of the purest Saudi descent who do have a slight hook to their noses.
Yemeni man:
Feel free to google "Yemeni" men. You won't see a short, upturned nose among them.
Bedouin:
I picked one of the handsome ones, but the noses are all the same. :)
Bedouin woman from the Negev:
The only Saudi women who are going to have short, upturned noses are those who have had plastic surgery. There are more nose jobs done in the Near East than anywhere in the world. Even Queen Rania, who I think is a very beautiful woman, has clearly had one. All you have to do is go back and look at pictures of her when she was young and compare them to the present day.
People really shouldn't rely on the things they see and read on so called "anthro" sites. It's almost always a cherry picked bunch of nonsense based on some sort of underlying agenda.
As is said I wont post the whole set of SNPs here but for nose these are good predictors:The phenotip description in my mind from the snps you mention sound logical...
P s
What is the main snp for nose
Shape ?
rs7325564 rs4787778 rs2058742 rs2045323 rs17640804 rs3751074 rs3920540
But you forget that many cultures of the world do not produce face masks, paintings and sculptures of themselves or others that are meant to look 100% realistic.
Often persons will be portrayed better then they looked, or more like the beauty ideal oft that time. I personally trust more genetic information then masks or other art.
There are also much Media circulating on the Internet that creates a false Image of Ancient people. Best example is Neanderthals that are often prortrayed fair skinned, blonde, European looking, but nothing is far more from truth then this images.
These skulls for example resembles not the beauty ideals you have posted here:https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AxBdAJM2lEM/hqdefault.jpg
https://www.pinterest.de/pin/564005553310730586/
Do you think Cucuteni people looked like this:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o_RMZfmWcb..._kultura_2.jpg?
I don't think so.
There are two nice books about ancient Masks available if you are interested in that topic:
https://www.amazon.de/Masken-Vorzeit...6673409&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.de/Masken-Vorzeit...6673428&sr=8-6
I own both of them.
Sorry, I'm not following your logic here. The masks at Jericho are DEATH masks of ACTUAL people, probably of ancestors, just like the death masks of Lincoln or Washington etc. They're made by taking a cast (clay, plaster, wax) or impression of the face and sometimes the skull of a corpse. That's why they're the best way to know what someone looked like at the time of death.
They're absolutely NOT an artistic reimagination or stylistic representation, like the figure from Cucuteni. (BTW there are also even more ancient European hunter gatherer versions.)
The picture of a decayed mask which you posted still shows a long nose.
Also, I didn't publish any beauty "ideals". For one thing I don't think the Saudis are a particularly good looking group. Yemenis and some groups of Bedouins are a different story if you ignore the premature aging. However, specifically as to the noses, all you have to do is google Saudis, Yemenis, and Bedouins. You could add Egyptians and North Africans to that list. There are hundreds if not thousands of images from the news, anthropological work, etc. You may find some hooked noses among the Saudis, in particular, but after all they do have some northern Near Eastern/Caucasus type ancestry. Even if you don't know the percentages, their yDna alone would tell you that. Otherwise, the noses are straight and long. Not ONE image of all of those people shows short upturned noses.
Nose shape probably results from lots of small effect alleles. I doubt we have them all.
For what it's worth, I checked my raw data at 23andme. Only two are available.
rs7325564 TT
rs17640804 TT
Again, for what it's worth, my nose is moderately long, absolutely straight, wider at the tip than the base.
Anyway, sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. The death masks at Jericho are, I think, the best way to know what they looked like.
angela the masks of jericho
belong to the ppnb period
which is later than natufian period
even by y dna we see difference the natufians were majority E ( so i can't rule out upturned nose or some other african traits )
in ppnb remain while E is present in 33% but we do see some other y haplogroups : T, H
so it is possible the not upturned nose you see is a results of there influence or change in face morfology
when the E mixed with T and H that might results in hook nose or straight nose you see in those death masks of the ppnb remains ....
And my opinion is the opposite. Ancient peoples from Palaeolithic or Early Neolithic era had no oil painting or photograph of their death, they where not skilled artists with modern tools to create such accurate masks as the one of Abraham Lincoln. The Natufian masks look far from being anything perfect or realistic.
Ancient people just look like they have looked, the admixture is not predicting necessary how they have looked, but the SNPs of their traits. I also mentioned that before. The admixtures are taken from modern populations, their phenotypes changed over time by selection and what is now a componentlike “Eastern European” can be a mix of once neolithic and whg ancestry for example of a specific region.
The components change with the algorithm that is used and samples/SNPs that are used to define a component, but the phenotypic traits for the samples wont change, they only can be better predicted, if more work for this is done and more SNPs for phenotypic traits are known.
For me all SNPs I posted here are matching my phenotype of nose and are available, I use ftdna data.
I don't think that we can somehow agree, different positions.
Haplogroups do not predict anything anatomically.angela the masks of jericho
belong to the ppnb period
which is later than natufian period
even by y dna we see difference the natufians were majority E ( so i can't rule out upturned nose or some other african traits )
in ppnb remain while E is present in 33% but we do see some other y haplogroups : T, H
so it is possible the not upturned nose you see is a results of there influence or change in face morfology
when the E mixed with T and H that might results in hook nose or straight nose you see in those death masks of the ppnb remains ....
As I mentioned before, I do not say there where no hook or straight noses in Natufians, I only say this traits cannot be seen in current samples analysed by me, nothing more ;)
very interesting to think natufian nose was like this :
Or perhaps like this King Tut reconstruction?:http://www.geocities.ws/joao_marri/kingtutboyside.jpg
http://www.solarnavigator.net/histor...nstruction.jpg
I will no longer interrupt the discussion here, I will be back when ancient Egyptian samples are done for analysis but like I said, I don't think they will be of good quality. Then I will make an analysis for the Natufian traits with ancient samples and modern ones.
All of those unclassified BT/CT are probably E-M35, so PPNB were likely ~60-70% E-M35.angela the masks of jericho
belong to the ppnb period
which is later than natufian period
even by y dna we see difference the natufians were majority E ( so i can't rule out upturned nose or some other african traits )
in ppnb remain while E is present in 33% but we do see some other y haplogroups : T, H
so it is possible the not upturned nose you see is a results of there influence or change in face morfology
when the E mixed with T and H that might results in hook nose or straight nose you see in those death masks of the ppnb remains ....
Realy
What a dominant
If that was the case how we e1b1b1
Became such unimportant branch in today modern middle east?
Did j1 who came from the north in bronze age time reduced our number so much ?
Did they brought new technology with them ?
The Bedouin definitely have more than their share of pretty faces. That lady looks almost Gypsy to me.Well then, clearly PPNB people had different kinds of noses. There is nothing short and upturned about the noses at Jericho. Or perhaps their artwork didn't always resemble them accurately.
I'd also be very interested to see Bedouins and Saudis with short, upturned noses.
This is what the Saudis I've seen look like:
There are also, of course, men of the purest Saudi descent who do have a slight hook to their noses.
Yemeni man:
Feel free to google "Yemeni" men. You won't see a short, upturned nose among them.
Bedouin:
I picked one of the handsome ones, but the noses are all the same. :)
Bedouin woman from the Negev:
The only Saudi women who are going to have short, upturned noses are those who have had plastic surgery. There are more nose jobs done in the Near East than anywhere in the world. Even Queen Rania, who I think is a very beautiful woman, has clearly had one. All you have to do is go back and look at pictures of her when she was young and compare them to the present day.
People really shouldn't rely on the things they see and read on so called "anthro" sites. It's almost always a cherry picked bunch of nonsense based on some sort of underlying agenda.
In any case, I wouldn't say those noses (PPNB) are either extreme (upturned or aquiline). They look kinda moderate, and I would even say they'd fit pretty much anywhere in Europe, with a few exceptions.
Perhaps I shouldn't have made such absolute claims. I certainly don't think upturned noses are as common among Bedouins or Yemenis as they are among Finns or Saami.
I still do maintain, however, that they are far more common among southern Arabians than among Levantines or Caucasians, who have far more aquiline, very large noses. When you look where aquiline noses are most predominant, there is no doubt it is in the Caucasus and adjacent regions. Among Amerindians it's the Andean groups. There appears to be something about cold and dry climates that is likely to produce those noses.
As far as the original phenotype of the Basal Eurasians is concerned, it is important to note that the south of Arabia and Hadhramaut are very different, genetically and phenotypically, from the Yemeni highlands and the rest of the Middle East. The people of al-Mahra would fall closer to the rest of the peripheral Indian-Ocean-linked Arabian Peninsula.
As for what southern Arabians look like, anthropologists have written that they are brachycephalic, and in this way distinct from the rest of the Arabian Peninsula. Unlike Levantines they have small heads and thus have a head shape like the Saami (small head size and brachycephaly). They have small facial dimensions as well, which I would not expect an aquiline nose to go with.
Finally, I don't look at those websites in the first place. I can't even keep up with the racial terminology and it's confusing when I see it here. Between all the anthropologists it's never even consistent.
This is a huge problem. These calculators make it look like "Early European Farmer" or "Neolithic Farmer" or whatever label they come up with is a consistent admixture. It isn't. It is an unstable mixture of Basal Eurasians with some WHG-related population from West Asia, and then possibly CHGs, which both aforementioned groups contributed to.
This Bronze-Age Iranian woman had a lot of ANE ancestry and even looked somewhat Amerindian as a result. Otherwise in her phenotype that WHG-related component is visible. But unfortunately admixture calculators never show that Iranians and other West Asians have anything WHG-like, when they clearly do, because it's subsumed into something else.
Iran_01.jpg
I guess those BT/CT should be E-M35. Half natural causes, half the reason of J1 spread. But J1 spread and dominance must have happened after they acquired Afro-Asiatic speech. So they must have arose to power latter on. Afro-Asiatic language didn't come from North to South, it was reverse.Realy
What a dominant
If that was the case how we e1b1b1
Became such unimportant branch in today modern middle east?
Did j1 who came from the north in bronze age time reduced our number so much ?
Did they brought new technology with them ?
That's true. The main factor seems to have been the metal age. There was a shift in the whole of the Near East and even into Anatolia towards the Iranian-CHG ancestry and J-dominance. Just like in Europe, there were shifts caused by transitions and migrations. In the case of the Near East, E1b1b was not completely replaced, but got reduced by it. Just like R1a and I2 came into areas of Eastern Central and South Eastern Europe which were more dominated by E-V13 in the Iron Age. There is no rule for lasting continuity in any region, even on the contrary. The E1b1b spread in the Near before might have been one big wave which largely eliminated older variation in the region during the Neolithic transition, the question is just whether it was coming from within or not.
Concerning Natufians, their phenotypes were generally quite variable, so you might read out of a couple of samples what you will, but generally speaking, most authors considered them closest to "Proto-Mediterranean".
Obviously modern Southern Arabs and Yemenis are not like Natufians, but they come closest to them from all living populations. The main difference to other West Eurasians is their size and gracile bones, and that's actually an old Near Eastern tradition which started before Natufians, but was probably strongest among them, which is part of the reason they looked "Proto-Mediterranean", with more refined, smaller and gracile features.
The Southern Arabian nose is mainly smaller, narrower, more delicate, more often straight and less downturned in comparison to more Northern Near Easterners. That's not the same as an upturned nose, which appears individually, but is not typical for the region and its population.
^^I disagree, Riverman.
I would consider paleolithic Caucasian people as "Proto-Mediterranean", if anything. They're similar to Anatolain_N which is the majority of what all Mediterranean people are composed of in autosomal DNA. I speculate that Neolithic Anatolians are perhaps a remnant of these paleolithic Caucasian people. Besides, Natufians themselves, are 73% Paleolithic Caucasian (Dzudzuana), and 27% Ancestral North African.
But Dzudzuana has Basal Eurasian influence? Because i am confused at this part.
Dzudzuana was all over the place, in the Levant, in Transcaucasia and in central Anatolia, that must have been just before tribes got into isolation because of LGM
and the Iberomaurisians carried it further into Africa even during LGM (around 25 ka into the Atlas Mts, ca 22 ka upper Nile Halfan industries)
Makes sense, but i am wondering what does Dzudzuana represent as an autosomal component, a basal to others or compound? Let's say 70% UHG (Unknown Hunter Gatherer) + 30% Basal Eurasian?
72% Villabruna-like + 28% Basal Eurasian = DzudzuanaMost of the Dzudzuana population’s ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the ‘Villabruna cluster’, but it also had ancestry from a lineage that had separated from the great majority of non-African populations before they separated from each other, proving that such ‘Basal Eurasians’ were present in West Eurasia twice as early as previously recorded.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...079v1.full.pdf
the 'Common West Eurasian' was the autosomal op Y-DNA IJ before it admixed with other tribes
IJ split in Transcaucasia, I entered Europa as Gravettians
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