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Thread: Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

  1. #26
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    Concerning Tartessos and the languages spoken in it, Donal BUCHANAN has made a translation of diverse texts he considered and "translated" as Celtic; I spoke myself of Celtic in Tartessos but in fact only2 texts were in S-W-Spain, the most of them (in seemingly same language) were in Algarve, S-Portugal, in the territory of the Conii close to Tartessos. So the presence of Celts in Tartessos lands is not so surprising (it was late: perhaps between200 BC and 200 AD), but the principal Tartessos language was not Celtic nor close to.
    Here under my amateurish points:
    Concerning the argument based on words like Iron and sword it isn't decisive for me: technics travel, the words linked to them travel too, are loaned and submitted to phonetical evolution as (but not identically!) older words of the "original" lexicon; sometimes, words pre-exist to new technics or founds, and are semantically adapted or "twisted" (analogy or?) and it doesn't imply loanwords by force, but also internal creations; it's all the question of proto-languages reconstructions. Question of classification: some words are older than an ethnolinguistic stage and other words are younger; the same applies to dialects of a same rather homogenous group. Even in a small linguistic group (at least for a short time) all the speakers don't have a completely identical lexicon at hand.
    If we want, let's say IA Celtic with these words by instance succeeded to a pre-IA Celtic being kind of an evolved proto-Celtic, and very close, iron or not.

  2. #27
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    What I wrote above, evidently, doesn't support some of the FEHER paper arguments, and doesn't support any of the preceding "Celtic of West" theories forms (KOCH etc...)

  3. #28
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    What I wrote above, evidently, doesn't support some of the FEHER paper arguments, and doesn't support any of the preceding "Celtic of West" theories forms (KOCH etc...)
    Moesan, let me expose some personal views about the topic (and also recall that I am not an expert, so completely open to assimilate other forumer's ideas).

    The arrival of the indo-european to western europe from the east is consistent with the possibility of celtic coming from the west. The map below shows the sudden appearance of R1b men (supposedly Indo-European (IE) arriving from east Europe) in Iberia spanning a time 2500-2000 BC. The data is:
    Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
    l YTree: R1b-P310 (R-L51>R-L52), 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-P312 (R-L51>R-L52>R-L151>R-P312), 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
    l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
    l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

    The map also shows (in yellow) the Celtic territory in the last centuries of the I millennium BC in the Iron Age (IA). This culture entered from the east about 1500 or 2000 years later.
    The offshoot of the first Indoeuropean-R1b had time to develop their language in a territory with non-IE people with p-less languages (Iberian/euzkera) as a creole language (lost its p*). They inherited the maritime connexions of the previous population and were able to move out of Iberia via Atlantic Ocean. In my opinion, the IE-R1b were able to reach Iberia by sailing in the same form that reached the British Isles and Ireland by sailing. The "Celtic from the West" was published more than 10 years ago and genetics knowledge has advanced, but some Cunliffe and Koch proposals are reasonable, i.e., the common family of "Celtic" languages of these Atlantic people, the existence of Celtic (or proto-Celtic) languages in the Iberian Peninsula (Atlantic) before the arrival of the IA culture. Honestly, I am an observer here and not qualified to debate with more expert forumers about the possible influence or not of these "Atlantic Celts" on the Central Europe Celtic cultures.
    Thank you for your posts. I appreciate very much your comments.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by celtiberian-II; 31-08-21 at 16:59.

  4. #29
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    @celtiberianII
    I have no time just now to answer the above post, that I found interesting.
    Just atfirst sight: the P- lost question is not so easy to resolve but Basques aren't the first candidate for this lost, spite they seem having had no P- or F- in their natural phonetics (I am not a basque specialist, so what I say here...);
    Surely a stratum played a role in this change. But in Iberia we had (at IA at least) a Lusitanian language close enough to Celtic and Italic, but with conservation of the P-; I am not aware either of a P- lost in surely BA Ligurian, spite they were living more south than Celts as a whole. And the Hercynia/Orkunia name of the Bavarian territory in a Celtic region which mirrors a proto-Celtic *Perkw- = oak (Lat. Quercus); some etymologies propose the name of the Hercuniates or Hercinians tribe, Belgae, but it doesn't contradict this (Belgae or some of them are supposed by some scholars to be come from Bavaria/Bohemia); the fact is that the P- lost could have had its origin more in East. I 'll come back here soon.

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