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Thread: Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

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    Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence

    Tibor Fehér: Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence, Academia Letters, July 2021.


    Celtic studies in the last two decades lead by John T. Koch and Barry Cunliffe have questioned the validity of the long-time theory “Hallstatt Iron Age = proto-Celtic culture”, arguing for an early Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age in their “Celtic from the West” series. 1 The argument goes that Gündlingen type swords originated in the late Bronze Age Britain and Low Countries and have later spread from the West to East to spread further from the Halstatt Alpine Iron Age. The Celtic nature of Tartessian from pre-Iron Age South-Western Iberia also testifies the early Atlantic origin of proto-Celtic. Y-DNA (inherited only through the male line) and autosomal ancient DNA results increasingly support the “Celtic from the West”, going even further this paper argues for an “Italo-Celtic” from the North-West.
    Recent archaeogenetic studies 2 proved that R1b-M269 males, today dominant lin- eage in Central and Western Europe originate from the Pontic-Caspian Steppes that is today’s Ukraine and Southern Russia. A pre-M269 but non-M73 male, i.e. leading from P297 towards M269 ancestor was found in Samara culture on the Volga River living around 5500 BC. It was also confirmed that the Kurgan-building Yamnaya steppe herders and their eastern offshoot Afanasievo culture (probably proto-Tocharian) belonged predominantly to Haplogroup R1b-Z2103.

    Later studies clarified that late Proto-Indo-European (“Aryan proper”) language was most likely spoken in the Corded Ware Cultural (CWC) complex (2900-2350 BC). It shows significant Yamnaya-related Western Steppe Herder (WSH) autosomal ancestry, and has geographical subgroups fitting the spread of specific subfamilies. Proto-Indo-Iranians derive from Sintashta culture (2200-1800) coming from the eastern side of CWC Fatyanovo- Balanovo culture (2900-2200 BC), being mostly R1a-Z93 on the paternal line. Proto-Balto- Slavs are the candidate for descending from CWC Middle Dniepr culture (3200-2300 BC) being R1a-Z280 and moving north to replace the Mesolithic Narva culture. Battle Axe culture (2800-2300 BC) is the CWC branch in Scandinavia where R1a-Z284 and I1-M253 prevails, replacing Pitted Ware Mesolithic. Last but not least, Single Grave culture (2800-2200 BC) replaced TRB Neolithic in the North German Plain and Denmark, being ancestral to later Bell Beaker culture from 2500 BC (R1b-L11/P311).

    What do you think?
















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    Old question. I suppose that IEan languages appeared in Western Europe largely before Hallstatt, launched by BB's?, and that some versions of them turned later into Celtic, which took the strong side over other close dialects, some of whose were midway to both Celtic and Italic and to others. I should not be surprised if some Qw- dialects were there before Hallstatt/La Tène tribes.
    BTW the "Celtic nature" of Tartessian is still in debate, it seems there were more than a language in Tartessos, one very unclear and another surely Celtic, maybe late and intrusive; but I don't know precisely WHEN appeared this "another". I 've to look at it again.

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    I saw the video of a lecture from a few years ago by Cunliffe. Horribly outdated and confused as far as population genetics go. He claimed that because R1b is most frequent and most R1b men are in Western Europe, then it's highly likely it's the point where R1b started to spread (what??? That's totally illogical even by the standards of an "amateur geneticist"). Worse, he even still claimed the genetic evidences indicate a large degree of continuity in Western Europe since the Paleolithic (WTF?!??). If it's based on that that he claims what he claims, I honestly can't give this "Celtic from the West" hypothesis any credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Old question. I suppose that IEan languages appeared in Western Europe largely before Hallstatt, launched by BB's?, and that some versions of them turned later into Celtic, which took the strong side over other close dialects, some of whose were midway to both Celtic and Italic and to others. I should not be surprised if some Qw- dialects were there before Hallstatt/La Tène tribes.
    BTW the "Celtic nature" of Tartessian is still in debate, it seems there were more than a language in Tartessos, one very unclear and another surely Celtic, maybe late and intrusive; but I don't know precisely WHEN appeared this "another". I 've to look at it again.
    Thank you for your comment, @Moesan.

    Very interesting the hypothesis of more than a language in Tartessos with one surely Celtic and maybe late intrusive. Perhaps consequence of a maritime connection between the SW of Iberia and the north of France/Germany/...?

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    I agree YGorcs. Some naivety in some statements. I suspect a hidden opposition among some Irish and British scientists to any central or eastern European origin...
    The chronologic question of Celtic before Hallstatt has to be detached from the question of geographic origin. Earlier waves could have been launched roughly from the same region of future Halstatt cultures, or close enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I saw the video of a lecture from a few years ago by Cunliffe. Horribly outdated and confused as far as population genetics go. He claimed that because R1b is most frequent and most R1b men are in Western Europe, then it's highly likely it's the point where R1b started to spread (what??? That's totally illogical even by the standards of an "amateur geneticist"). Worse, he even still claimed the genetic evidences indicate a large degree of continuity in Western Europe since the Paleolithic (WTF?!??). If it's based on that that he claims what he claims, I honestly can't give this "Celtic from the West" hypothesis any credit.
    Thank you for the post, @Ygorcs.

    I completely agree with you that it is not likely that R1b spread from the West (even in my amateur-no geneticist opinion). We can think on an average flow from the East but, in my opinion, it is also possible people flowing back and forth and bringing their culture, language, genes, etc.

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    https://eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    The early split of L21 from the main Proto-Celtic branch around Germany would explain why the Q-Celtic languages (Goidelic and Hispano-Celtic) diverged so much from the P-Celtic branch (La Tène, Gaulish, Brythonic), which appears to have expanded from the later Urnfield and Hallstat cultures.

    If so, the P/Q split would already have occured some 4500 years ago.
    It looks like R1b-L21 arrived from Central Europe to expand very quickly on the British Isles and near the Atlantic coast.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L21/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I agree YGorcs. Some naivety in some statements. I suspect a hidden opposition among some Irish and British scientists to any central or eastern European origin...
    The chronologic question of Celtic before Hallstatt has to be detached from the question of geographic origin. Earlier waves could have been launched roughly from the same region of future Halstatt cultures, or close enough.

    Halstatt celts and La Tene celts are more than 400 years separated...........there is no evidence they are even the same people ..............400 years can bring a lot of ethnic changes

    The Irish might have some La Tene and no halstatt or could also have neither
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Halstatt celts and La Tene celts are more than 400 years separated...........there is no evidence they are even the same people ..............400 years can bring a lot of ethnic changes

    The Irish might have some La Tene and no halstatt or could also have neither
    It's possible they were not exactly the same ethny, spite I doubt they were completely foreigners one to another; the consensus is to say both were Celts, (at least western Hallstatt culture tribes), the change being more in material culture and way of lands holding and settlements; I have no real clue. It's possible that the Halstatt elites would have been absorbed by precedent pop's. Concerning Irish, their celtisation and its date is also matter of discussions...
    I doubt Celtic languages has been imposed by the very last waves of peopling in western Europe; dialects changes, surely. As a whole, it seems Ireland is always stayed a little apart of big moves. Puzzling question...

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    La Tène, spite later, could have been the result of this absorbtion of "barbaric" Hallstatt elites by longer settled people from before, and NOT a new wave. The change is also due to new exchanges with the Mediterranean world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    La Tène, spite later, could have been the result of this absorbtion of "barbaric" Hallstatt elites by longer settled people from before, and NOT a new wave. The change is also due to new exchanges with the Mediterranean world.
    The La Tène Gauls original homelands are supposed to be on the northern outskirts of the Hallstatt realm.
    Hallstatt was peacefull, with some wealthy elites on strategic locations controlling trade routes.
    The Gauls were restless warriors.

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    This is an interesting theory. Adriano Romualdi already pointed out certain similarities between the ancient Proto-Italic and Proto-Germanic peoples, which can only be explained with a theory such as the one presented here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    The La Tène Gauls original homelands are supposed to be on the northern outskirts of the Hallstatt realm.
    Hallstatt was peacefull, with some wealthy elites on strategic locations controlling trade routes.
    The Gauls were restless warriors.

    Where did you see La tene Gauls original homelands are near Halsatt ( which is in modern East Austria ) ?

    The celts owned all of Central and Southern Germany
    The celtic "capital" was in Glauberg near modern Frankfurt Germany ...............no one have any idea the ethnic makeup of La Tene and Halstatt Celts ..............we only know that the halstatt mixed with Illyrians and the La Tene mixed with Gallic and Ligurian tribes

    The Halstatt celts went into the balkans and failed in an attempt to take Greece and one group settled in Serbia and other groups went to modern Turkey

    There is no record of where the La Tene went into modern France or beyond that I can find

    The Glauberg is not isolated within its time and area, although it is the most northeasterly site of its type known at present. But several other important Celtic population centres or oppida are known from the Rhein-Main Region and Central Hesse. Two important fortifications, those at Dünsberg near Giessen and Heidetränk Oppidum (one of the largest urban settlements in Celtic Europe) near Altkönig in the Taunus mountains are visible from Glauberg. Nearby is also the Celtic salt industry at Bad Nauheim.
    [17]


    Cremations are more commonly associated with the Halstatt phase, inhumation with the La Tène one.



    maybe you can take a look into this

    https://www.academia.edu/20678662/So...uberg_Germany_

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    I' not a specialist and have no time just now to go deeper in the question but it seems to me someones here are confusing the places which gave their name to cultures with the allover extension of these cultures: Hallstatt culture in West went far enough from Hallstatt region in Austria and very very often the first settlements considered as linked to La Tène culture (name from La Tène in Switzerland) were not too far from last Hallstatt culture setllements.
    I 'll try to gather more 'info' when I find time (and find these info's!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Where did you see La tene Gauls original homelands are near Halsatt ( which is in modern East Austria ) ?

    The celts owned all of Central and Southern Germany
    The celtic "capital" was in Glauberg near modern Frankfurt Germany ...............no one have any idea the ethnic makeup of La Tene and Halstatt Celts ..............we only know that the halstatt mixed with Illyrians and the La Tene mixed with Gallic and Ligurian tribes

    The Halstatt celts went into the balkans and failed in an attempt to take Greece and one group settled in Serbia and other groups went to modern Turkey

    There is no record of where the La Tene went into modern France or beyond that I can find

    The Glauberg is not isolated within its time and area, although it is the most northeasterly site of its type known at present. But several other important Celtic population centres or oppida are known from the Rhein-Main Region and Central Hesse. Two important fortifications, those at Dünsberg near Giessen and Heidetränk Oppidum (one of the largest urban settlements in Celtic Europe) near Altkönig in the Taunus mountains are visible from Glauberg. Nearby is also the Celtic salt industry at Bad Nauheim.
    [17]


    Cremations are more commonly associated with the Halstatt phase, inhumation with the La Tène one.



    maybe you can take a look into this

    https://www.academia.edu/20678662/So...uberg_Germany_


    Overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures: The core Hallstatt territory (HaC, 800 BC) is shown in solid yellow, the eventual area of Hallstatt influence (by 500 BC, HaD) in light yellow. The core territory of La Tène culture (450 BC) is shown in solid green, the eventual area of La Tène influence (by 250 BC) in light green. The territories of some major Celtic tribes of the late La Tène period are labelled.

    During late Hallstatt many prinsely seats like Glauberg existed.
    The most prestigious prinsely seats were Heuneburg and Vix.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave
    They were situated on strategic crossroads for trade and show social stratification, unlike the Hallstatt salt mines where the miners themselves also seem to have participated in the wealth created by the mines.
    When the Gauls expanded those prinsely seats dissapeared, it seems that the social order dissapeared and was replaced by another one.

    The Gauls also expanded in the Balkans.
    Those who tried to take greece and settled in Serbia and mixed with Illyrians, were not Hallstatt Celts, they were Gauls.

    Like Moesan says, it is sometimes sonfusing because the Celts were very diverse and the different groups are often not very well defined by those who speak about them.



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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Where did you see La tene Gauls original homelands are near Halsatt ( which is in modern East Austria ) ?

    The celts owned all of Central and Southern Germany
    The celtic "capital" was in Glauberg near modern Frankfurt Germany ...............no one have any idea the ethnic makeup of La Tene and Halstatt Celts ..............we only know that the halstatt mixed with Illyrians and the La Tene mixed with Gallic and Ligurian tribes

    The Halstatt celts went into the balkans and failed in an attempt to take Greece and one group settled in Serbia and other groups went to modern Turkey

    There is no record of where the La Tene went into modern France or beyond that I can find

    The Glauberg is not isolated within its time and area, although it is the most northeasterly site of its type known at present. But several other important Celtic population centres or oppida are known from the Rhein-Main Region and Central Hesse. Two important fortifications, those at Dünsberg near Giessen and Heidetränk Oppidum (one of the largest urban settlements in Celtic Europe) near Altkönig in the Taunus mountains are visible from Glauberg. Nearby is also the Celtic salt industry at Bad Nauheim.
    [17]


    Cremations are more commonly associated with the Halstatt phase, inhumation with the La Tène one.



    maybe you can take a look into this

    https://www.academia.edu/20678662/So...uberg_Germany_

    Concerning Balkans and the Celtic expansion towards East, Bicicleur2 answered you; concerning Hallstatt and La Tène cultures extensions Bicicleur2 answered you again.
    For La Tène in today France, Champagne province was the second hotspot of the culture after the Eiffel district of Germany, and it seems they were the centers of ancient "arrowheads" of previous expansions from the preceding Hallstatt culture area, surely military expansions based at first on demographic processes.
    Hallstatt was not expanding but it was kind of a capture on the territory and its wealth and on the economic traffic, by people who were surely not without military strength; contrary to what you say, (for I know at least), Hallstatt was very hyerarchised, more than La Tène or differently, with more steep less gradual social differences than La Tène who was less despotic and more "military" ("expansion oblige?") at first; at first, and in its power centers more than in peripheries.

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    Edited post

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post

    Overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures: The core Hallstatt territory (HaC, 800 BC) is shown in solid yellow, the eventual area of Hallstatt influence (by 500 BC, HaD) in light yellow. The core territory of La Tène culture (450 BC) is shown in solid green, the eventual area of La Tène influence (by 250 BC) in light green. The territories of some major Celtic tribes of the late La Tène period are labelled.

    During late Hallstatt many prinsely seats like Glauberg existed.
    The most prestigious prinsely seats were Heuneburg and Vix.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave
    They were situated on strategic crossroads for trade and show social stratification, unlike the Hallstatt salt mines where the miners themselves also seem to have participated in the wealth created by the mines.
    When the Gauls expanded those prinsely seats dissapeared, it seems that the social order dissapeared and was replaced by another one.

    The Gauls also expanded in the Balkans.
    Those who tried to take greece and settled in Serbia and mixed with Illyrians, were not Hallstatt Celts, they were Gauls.

    Like Moesan says, it is sometimes sonfusing because the Celts were very diverse and the different groups are often not very well defined by those who speak about them.


    I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.



    Final eneolithic
    l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 3248 BCE. Sardinia, Italy, MarcusNatCommun2020 (Blue Circle)

    Early Chalcolithic
    l Y-Simbol2: R1bV88, 2550 BCE. Barcelona, Spain, OlaladeNature2018 (Pink Circle)
    l YTree: R1b-M12149, 2768 BCE. Croatia, MathiesonNature2018 (Pink star)

    Late Chalcolithic (Red star)
    l YTree: R1b-P310, 2350 BCE. Asturias, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-U152, 2127 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-P312, 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-L51, 2171 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-PF6658, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
    l YTree: R1b-P310, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeNature2018
    l YTree: R1b-P312, 2250 BCE. Madrid, Spain, OlaladeScience2019
    l YTree: R1b-P310, 2124 BCE. Ciudad Real, Spain, OlaladeScience2019

    l YTree: R1b-Z195, 2387 BCE. Les Monges, France, SeguinOrlandoCurrBiol2021
    l YTree: R1b-L151, 2220 BCE. Valros, France, BrunelPNAS2020
    l YTree: R1b-M269, 2373 BCE. La Fare, France, OlaladeNature2018
    l YTree: R1b-L151, 2248 BCE. Haute-Savoie, France, OlaladeNature2018

    l YTree: R1b-P310, 2725 BCE. Auvernier, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
    l YTree: R1b-M269, 2225 BCE. Sion-Petit-Chasseur, Switzerland, OlaladeNature2018
    l YTree: R1b-M269, 2722 BCE. Burg?Chisee, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
    l YTree: R1b-L151, 2682 BCE. Aesch, Switzerland, FurtwaenglerNatCommun2020
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by celtiberian-II View Post
    I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.
    Map updated with Central Europe data.

    R1b_map3.jpg

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    Not sure if this paper is relevant.

    Bell Beaker cultural package in the East European periphery of the phenomenon: a case of ritual features in north-eastern Poland

    Dariusz Manasterski, Katarzyna Januszek, Adam Wawrusiewicz, and Aleksandra Klecha

    Documenta Praehistorica XLVII (2020)


    "In the presented case, itmost likely involved the arrival of a group (or groups) of BB people from the West, which brought ‘behaviour’ representing the BB cultural package. This is suggested by some of the artefacts characteristic for Western Europe, and in the case of the decorated slate plaquette/pendant, directly from the Iberian Peninsula, the only location where it has parallels."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post


    Overview of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures: The core Hallstatt territory (HaC, 800 BC) is shown in solid yellow, the eventual area of Hallstatt influence (by 500 BC, HaD) in light yellow. The core territory of La Tène culture (450 BC) is shown in solid green, the eventual area of La Tène influence (by 250 BC) in light green. The territories of some major Celtic tribes of the late La Tène period are labelled.

    During late Hallstatt many prinsely seats like Glauberg existed.
    The most prestigious prinsely seats were Heuneburg and Vix.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuneburg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave
    They were situated on strategic crossroads for trade and show social stratification, unlike the Hallstatt salt mines where the miners themselves also seem to have participated in the wealth created by the mines.
    When the Gauls expanded those prinsely seats dissapeared, it seems that the social order dissapeared and was replaced by another one.

    The Gauls also expanded in the Balkans.
    Those who tried to take greece and settled in Serbia and mixed with Illyrians, were not Hallstatt Celts, they were Gauls.

    Like Moesan says, it is sometimes sonfusing because the Celts were very diverse and the different groups are often not very well defined by those who speak about them.


    you are talking about phase 2 of Halstatt culture circa 800BC
    Phase 1 was circa 1000BC

    I know many want to avoid this phase 1

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    @Torzio
    I know many want to avoid this phase 1
    Could you develop please. What is hiden behind this phrase or what clues will you add?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Torzio
    I know many want to avoid this phase 1
    Could you develop please. What is hiden behind this phrase or what clues will you add?
    Phase 1 is avoided because it is a mix of Celtic and Illyrian people .......Celts coming from modern South Germany ..............shows zero La tene ( 400 years later ) .............Illyrians of Noricum where part of the amber trade to the adriatic sea

    Phase 2 is that the indigenous Illyrians from Noricum ( east Austria ) where already celtinized into the society...ie Celtic tattooing, dress and some weapons ( shows some early La Tene "union " ) ..........amber trade seemed to have ceased to the adriatic or was kept or redirected elsewhere

    most of Halstatt celts became Balkan celts and moved through the balkans......even reaching the black sea

    I do not really understand what you are seeking

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I crossread this little text and thought in the Cunliffe/Koch theory which I don’t agree to.
    This last paper is a bit different and not without interest.
    It says : « Linderholm et al. 2020 showed that the R1b-L52>P311 subgroup (leading to U106 and P312) dwelled in Southeast Poland, on the present Ukrainian border in the late Corded Ware culture times while most other CWC samples from Germany through Northern Poland to Estonia belonged to Hg R1a-M417. »
    I think a single site of this sort doesn’ t prove straight on Poland is the path for these subclades. I think rather in Hungary and Danube ? Before more proofs. But nothing (only archeology?) excludes a south Poland > Moravia > South Central Europe route...
    Again : « These SE Polish CWC samples also exhibit higher genetic affinity to later Bell Beaker culture samples than to CWC remains from other regions. The only CWC group related to this group is the Single Grave Culture in the Lower Rhine-Lower Elbe area. »
    This discrepancy compared to other CWC groups, with a rather BB set of Y-haplo’s would call for prudence concerning auDNA (BB’s shifted to CWC’s ?). But it depends on what we think about the formations of BB’s. The big pitfall is to consider BB’s as an homogenous brutal allover phenomenon. It isn’t. If we disconnect the first BB potters (I’m tempted to see in SW Iberia, at some stage) of the later extension allover western Europe, we can imagine the late BB’s were in fact « seizers » of BB network and that they extended it later.
    Then : « Therefore it is a safe conclusion that P311 ancestors migrated from the PIE homeland through Southeast Poland, north of the Carpathians towards the North Sea coast between 2900 and 2500 BC. This route is autosomally supported by Olalde et al. 2017, where they concluded that Bell Beaker samples outside Iberia (exclusively R1b-P312) are an admixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry with North European Neolithic groups (Globular Amphora and TRB), without any ancestry from Iberian Neolithic. We can conclude that the Corded Ware (CWC) horizon was the source of “autosomally unadmixed late PIE”people, being source of the proto-Italo-Celtic SingleGravepart.»
    I wasn’t aware of so a proximity between the neolithic elements in BB’s auDNA and GAC + TRB at the exclusion of Iberian neolithic auDNA. ATW the exogamic system of BB’s left them very heterogenous except some N-W clans, and I doubt their neolithic auDNA would have been everywhere so poor in Iberic neolithic elements. But some amateurs simulations showed that BB’s had often some ‘baltic’ hints so a northern path… ? That said, concerning the possible respective pathes for Y-R1b-L51 and L2103>2105 &..., the distribution of downstream L11 in North can push us to accept a northern route for L51, as proposed, spite my first thought was it passed through south the Carpathians before to fork around Hungary, some of them going northwards through Moravia to Poland, East germay and Baltic shores, for the most ancestors of R1b-U106. The Lower Rhine region could have received Y-R1b subclades groups from East as well as from South. So I stay doubtful here. Some L51>L11 (or L151) could ave passed through North (then for me: U106 ancestors), others through South (P312 ancestors). Their so called GAC/TRB neolithic part could have been taken more East, before this supposed branching (somewhere in Ukraina/Belarus?)
    Bearing in mind the above, the autosomal genetic results support the Y-DNA branching observation that L11/P311 is the most diverse in the Lower Rhine-Lower Elbe area where U106 and P312 as well as rare brothers S1194 and A8053 could have lived next to each other around 2800-2500 BC before the P312 branch started the Beaker expansion.It is widely known that the paternally the most “Celtic” subgroup, R1b-P312 is most frequent in the Celtic parts of British Isles and in Iberia (above 50%), significant in France(40-50%) and has decreasing frequency towards Central and Eastern Europe. R1b-L21, the typical P312 subgroup in British Isles was found among the earliest Bell Beaker settlers. There is no reasonable scenario to expect a Carpathian Basin–North Alps or Carpathian Basin–Italy migration route for proto-Celtic based on the paternal frequencies of R1b-P312. This is also underlined by autosomal DNA evidence, as shown by early British Bell Beaker samples, as their genetic distance is measured from modern populations.
    We need caution. I can accept the supposed « nordish » BB’s auDNA but it could have been catched or kept from further East and from earlier, it doesn’t exclude a more southern route (Danube). The idea of a bunch of every downstream of R1b-L11 in a relatively small place (Lower Rhine area) after a tour in northern Europe among territories under recent Y-R1a CWC control, and their later expansion in good order, well separated as a whole (L21, DF27, U152, U106) is not impossible but seems weird to me. I suppose the variety they are talking about is based on today pop’s, not ancient ones, and it seems to me more a sink effect (later historical events, with BB’s going until Scandinavia and Germanics going West and South, and maybe Belgae of some sort coming from Eastern Bavaria/Bohemia). ATW we need more ancient DNA to trace the way they took. So linguistically speaking I don’t see why a southern (north-alpine) route would be forbidden to proto-Celtic and proto-Italic speakers, even if I think they formed relatively late, in situ in central-western Europe on a network of close west-IE dialects of late BB’s origin.
    R1b-L21, the typical P312 subgroup in British Isles was found among the earliest Bell Beaker settlers. There is no reasonable scenario to expect a Carpathian Basin–North Alps or Carpathian Basin–Italy migration route for proto-Celtic based on the paternal frequencies of R1b-P312.
    Indeed if we consider Celtic and Italic are descendants of BB’s dialects evolved later, effectively we do’nt need later arrived tribes from East ; but it doesn’t exclude the ancestors of these BB’s (grand fathers of both) came through there. I think (without true proof it’s true) the Celts as a linguistic group are older than IA. I place them in BA, after the BB’s CA and born from a part of these last ones. I consider that P- Celtic and P-Italic groups of same basic origin than Bronze ones came with IA, from more eastern positions for both*. The fact British BB’s are almost all of them L21 and that their ancestors came rather from today Netherlands exclude that the cradle of P312 and all other downstream SNP’s could have been there.
    *: Since long ago I bet that the Qw- to P- phenomenon is not born independently in the diverse languages of Europe : How ? Influence of bilingual elites (Urnfields?) ? Common important substratum ? The place of propagation could be around northern Balkans south Hungary ??? The principal difference between Qw- Celtic and Qw- Italic is thatthe first was largely spread westwards when the second stayed a long time somewhere I place rather between N-E Italy, S-Austria and N-Croatia (Pannonia), roughly said.
    British Isles Bell Beaker samples cluster with modern Northern European populations, whether today Germanic or Celtic speaking. It is also notable that most distances are below 10.00 that means, these modern populations are direct autosomal descendants of Bell Beaker groups, without any admixture break, testifying the North to South and West to East direction of gene flows in the Bronze and Iron Ages.
    I find these statements a bit simplistic. I’m sure the today population of the Isles is not directly or totally issued from the BB’s. It has been increased by new colonisations at celtic times without to speak of Anglo-Saxons, Celts were newcomers with a less steppic input (the Hallstatt & La Tène ones at least) but stayed close to BB’s people so they leave this impression of unbroken continuity; but anthropologic typology submitted to finer and faster evolutions than auDNA shows there has not be a so evident continuity. The BB’s demic expansion, for me, has proceeded from Central Germany on every direction, not truly from West only. For the Isles the most passed through Lower Rhine, OK. BB’s could IMO have spread close IE dialects which evolved later by partial sedentism (without exclude diverse exchanges). Proto-Celtic could have covered a huge territory or dominated this territory as kind of lingua franca (Atlantic Bronze?). Proto-Italic was more eastern. The specifically Italic dialects seems to me evolved spoken by tribes which had contacts with proto-Germanics if I rely on some linguistic conclusions. The phonetics of Italic(s) seems to show ties with both Hellenic and Rhaetic-Etruscan but here it’s only personal guess, and the Etruscan traits could have been taken in northern Italy, not during proto-Italic phase more around Austria/Croatia ?
    ATW concerningY-haplos, I suppose Y-R1b-U152 expansion is more closely tied to Hallstatt & La Tène periods and in a more eastern sphere. Its strong presence among Qw-Italics could be due not so specifically to Italics but also to Italicised tribes (close to Ligurians ?).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by celtiberian-II View Post
    Tibor Fehér: Celtic and Italic from the West – the Genetic Evidence, Academia Letters, July 2021.


    Celtic studies in the last two decades lead by John T. Koch and Barry Cunliffe have questioned the validity of the long-time theory “Hallstatt Iron Age = proto-Celtic culture”, arguing for an early Celtic Atlantic Bronze Age in their “Celtic from the West” series. 1 The argument goes that Gündlingen type swords originated in the late Bronze Age Britain and Low Countries and have later spread from the West to East to spread further from the Halstatt Alpine Iron Age. The Celtic nature of Tartessian from pre-Iron Age South-Western Iberia also testifies the early Atlantic origin of proto-Celtic. Y-DNA (inherited only through the male line) and autosomal ancient DNA results increasingly support the “Celtic from the West”, going even further this paper argues for an “Italo-Celtic” from the North-West.

    What do you think?
    A few notes here:

    The assertion that "autosomal ancient DNA supports an origin from the West" is circular reasoning in my opinion. Autosomal would suggest that, yes, the pre-Celtic population of the Atlantic region is... Atlantic. It's a tautology, especially as we have y-chromosomal evidence that clearly points us towards a steppe origin. The underlaying problem - essentially unsolved by the "Celtic-from-the-West" hypothesis is that yes, Proto-Indo-European originated in the East. The reversal of expansion direction is difficult to reconcile. Just like you said:

    Recent archaeogenetic studies 2 proved that R1b-M269 males, today dominant lin- eage in Central and Western Europe originate from the Pontic-Caspian Steppes that is today’s Ukraine and Southern Russia. A pre-M269 but non-M73 male, i.e. leading from P297 towards M269 ancestor was found in Samara culture on the Volga River living around 5500 BC. It was also confirmed that the Kurgan-building Yamnaya steppe herders and their eastern offshoot Afanasievo culture (probably proto-Tocharian) belonged predominantly to Haplogroup R1b-Z2103.
    Plus one continuing problem is: Proto-Celtic is too young, how can you have common words for 'sword' and 'iron' if swords or iron melting have not been invented yet?

    With respect for Tartessos, keep this in mind: the inscriptions are roughly contemporary (within a century or so) with the Lepontic inscriptions from the Alps (Golasecca culture), though in my opinion the SW language is non-Indo-European (there may be Celtic personal names in it, but the language itself is non-IE). It's clear that there was a Celtic presence in the SW of Iberia around 400 years later, when the Romans conquered the area... but does this help us?

    For me "Italo-Celtic" would solve the problem to a degree because you would automatically look at an older time slice - Proto-Italo-Celtic would arguably be in the better time frame when we take beaker-bell.

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