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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is how one memeber of Anthrogenica hypothesized that native Apulians will plot and I pretty much agree with this, so I thought sharing it here.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    … educated guess or not, I wouldn’t post fake PCAs, … some may assume they’re real though they’re not.
    🕷️

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I personally would like to see the actual samples first hand.

    At any rate, I think it is interesting to point out that Bulgarian_IA plots close to the so-called outlier Daunians:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I personally would like to see the actual samples first hand.

    At any rate, I think it is interesting to point out that Bulgarian_IA plots close to the so-called outlier Daunians
    Yup, I thought about it the other day too. Here is a Bronze Age Southern Bulgarian sample in an academic PCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Yup, I thought about it the other day too. Here is a Bronze Age Southern Bulgarian sample in an academic PCA.
    Here is the PCA from the study on the Genomics of Southeastern Europe. For some reason it seems to project them further east, but I am not sure why that is so. Lazaridis et al. 2017 projects Mycenaeans further east, right on top of South Italians. Though most other PCAs project them further west.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    First of all, I don't appreciate the tone of your post in regards to mine. I was not rude to you, do not be rude to me.
    Secondly, I am talking about Apulia in general, not just the Daunians. You falsely claim the population of all of Apulia was completely supplanted by the Romans with Greeks and East Med people, and offer no proof of it. In fact I have provided proof of the opposite.
    Thirdly, the father of ORD001 leaves the speculation open to the idea of higher CHG people living among them, with his proclivity to Greece_N
    and neither was I rude to you

    direct yes, rude no


    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post628068
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    all these plotting scenarios are only based on the samples used and samples avoided.......looks like the many "doctored" admixture tests in vahauduo ..........selected samples to suit ones needs

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    all these plotting scenarios are only based on the samples used and samples avoided.......looks like the many "doctored" admixture tests in vahauduo ..........selected samples to suit ones needs
    I hope you are not implying that the PCAs I am using are doctored in anyway. It is a fairly comprehensive catalog of ancient DNA samples from accross all the significant studies from the Reich lab's list. Not to mention the HGDP samples along with the regular Dodecad Globe 13 samples.



    Here they are with the Mycenaens.

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    we should look at the confirmed Isotope union of Daunians with Dalmatians/Liburnians

    as per the 2 papers from 2018 and 2020

    https://dspace.uevora.pt/rdpc/bitstr...isotope....pdf






    all these agree with the paper of the origin of the Daunians

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    Here is a PCA with all of the relevant samples from Antonio et al. 2019, as well as Bulgaria_IA, and Mycenaeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    and neither was I rude to you
    direct yes, rude no
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post628068
    What I am saying here doesn't imply that Greeks had influence on these Daunians. Rather I said the Pre-Italic people before them were possibly C6. I am talking about Puglia in general. The Greek colonists also had influence as well. We still need to see what they were like. You're saying the Romans replaced everyone with foreigners there, which is unsubstantiated. I think these people (Iapygian, Greeks, Pre-Italics, Italics) mixed together when the Romans brought control to the area. I am sure there was some influence from Imperial age Greeks and Eastern Mediterranean people as well (As they probably did in all of Italy, and beyond throughout the Roman empire), but I think this is over blown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    What are you referring to with "completely new group of DNA"?
    Is there a paper that shows that a region in Italy, Vagnari, was all Greek adn "east med" (by this I understand near east, from the Levant to Anatolia)?
    The Levant is represented by C4.

    C5 is more people genetically south of Sicily to Cyprus, such as Greco-Anatolians.

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    Do we have DNA from Apennine Culture, particularly from Southern Italy? I am pretty sure we don't



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apennine_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    that's what the paper says ............No Greek influence ...........so see my reply to Jovialis above
    This paper shows that the Daunians in north Apulia were as much "south" (in the Italian cline, westward shift in the PCA) as central Italians and north Apulians today, and thought "west" of them (downward shift in the PCA), they are roughly as much west as moderno north Italians are to ancient north Italians, and a few samples as much south as south Italians, which seems to be the case for BA Sicilians, at least from this PCA

    Honestly I do not see why you have brought up this "Greek influence" thing: I do not see any one here arguing that ancient Daunians plotted where they plot because of Greek influence, or that modern south Italians are different from Daunians because of "Greek influence", whatever that means since it is you that are claiming south Italy was utterly resettled by Near Easterners and Greeks: we have no idea how Anatolians looked like in the Iron age (just two sampes from a study, who can a Persian and a Greek settlers), and coeval Levantines would have pulled south Italians, which doesn't appear to be the case, and indeed no genetic analysis up to now showed any Levantine influence in Italians, and I doubt that there was any significant numbers of caucasians brought into Italy. As for Greeks, they too seem now east of ancient Greeks, thus I do not see how Greeks and Near Easterners resettling all south Italy could explain Italian's genetics.
    By the way, the extract you posted speaks of a depopulation, but it offers no evidence of a resettlement of the east med peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Here is a PCA with all of the relevant samples from Antonio et al. 2019, as well as Bulgaria_IA, and Mycenaeans.
    Distance to: Jovialis
    8.34441130 Bulgarian_IA:Mathieson_et_al_2018:I5769


    I am sure I will be around this distance to the closest Daunian, when the samples are released. If Bulgarian_IA is a good proxy for it.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think a lot of the exotic graves found in the Antonio et al. 2019 study were indeed, traders, and people passing through for business, rather than mass immigration. The regions they came from were very wealthy already:


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    Modern Apulians are more northern shifted than Sicilians, and Iron Age Apulians are less Western than the Bronze Age Sicilians. Not to mention they are all from the Northern Apulia.

    Still some people were expecting IA Apulians to plot as the BA Sicilians but that is not the case. Let's not ignore that.

    Nearly complete Greek replacement with minority but substantial Levantine ancestry in Apulia is out of question now. I doubt Greek influence extends 20% in Apulia, even Pontic Greeks hardly push 15% Empuries-type of ancestry compared to modern Lazes with more Greek cities in Pontus and I am taking Armenians out of equation who are more even more Western, they are to Pontians what Albanians are to Peloponnesians genetically (and perphaps historically too).

    Old Greeks had like 4 cities, two of which were partly hellenized. This is not rocket science. If anything we should look at the Northern African/Moorish admixture better to explian the shift which makes sense judging by historical data and the PCA position of the Northern Africans. Minor Northern African admixture can archive a greater shift than some 20% Greek impact, and it explains a lot. Given that their presence in the documented historical data was mostly ignored (in antiquity). It would not be "ignored" if they were Levantines, because you need a GREATER number of Levantines.

    Also Phoenicans, Moors were predominantly of Northern Africans and undocumented migration is more likely to be from Northern Africa rather than Levant too given the gheography.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Modern Apulians are more northern shifted than Sicilians, and Iron Age Apulians are less Western than the Bronze Age Sicilians. Not to mention they are all from the Northern Apulia.

    Still some people were expecting IA Apulians to plot as the BA Sicilians but that is not the case. Let's not ignore that.

    Nearly complete Greek replacement with minority but substantial Levantine ancestry in Apulia is out of question now. I doubt Greek influence extends 20% in Apulia, even Pontic Greeks hardly push 15% Empuries-type of ancestry compared to modern Lazes with more Greek cities in Pontus and I am taking Armenians out of equation who are more even more Western, they are to Pontians what Albanians are to Peloponnesians genetically (and perphaps historically too).

    Old Greeks had like 4 cities, two of which were partly hellenized. This is not rocket science. If anything we should look at the Northern African/Moorish admixture better to explian the shift which makes sense judging by historical data and the PCA position of the Northern Africans. Minor Northern African admixture can archive a greater shift than some 20% Greek impact, and it explains a lot. Given that their presence in the documented historical data was mostly ignored (in antiquity). It would not be "ignored" if they were Levantines, because you need a GREATER number of Levantines.

    Also Phoenicans, Moors were predominantly of Northern Africans and undocumented migration is more likely to be from Northern Africa rather than Levant too given the gheography.
    Modern Apulians are pulled in the direction of CHG, which is the opposite direction of North Africa, and the Moors. Also, modern DNA shows that Apulians only have trace amounts at most of North African. The modeling from Raveane et al. 2018 do not even model Apulians with North African.

    From the Antonio et al. 2019 samples, we see some CHG/IN in Central Italian Neolithic samples at a relatively higher rate than for example LBK. Puglia has been a starting point for Neolithic migrations in Italy. Thus I believe that Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from the region will reflect higher CHG that was present in later farmers migrating from the East, already found in Greece_N. I think this legacy would have survived in Pre-Italic people. It would not have been in later comers like the Daunians. This is why C6 existed in the IA, among samples like R437.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Modern Apulians are pulled in the direction of CHG, which is the opposite direction of North Africa, and the Moors. Also, modern DNA shows that Apulians only have trace amounts at most of North African. The modeling from Raveane et al. 2018 do not even model Apulians with North African.

    From the Antonio et al. 2019 samples, we see some CHG/IN in Central Italian Neolithic samples at a relatively higher rate than for example LBK. Puglia has been a starting point for Neolithic migrations in Italy. Thus I believe that Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from the region will reflect higher CHG that was present in later farmers migrating from the East, already found in Greece_N. I think this legacy would have survived in Pre-Italic people. It would not have been in later comers like the Daunians. This is why C6 existed in the IA, among samples like R437.
    All I have seen by this paper, the 2 isotope papers and the 2 papers from the 2 italian women is that the daunians came from modern croatians lands .................I have attached part articles of the 2 italian women in earlier posts.
    Either all these papers , scholars, archeologists etc are wrong or ................

    As for your Bulgarian sample .................north-italians always match bulgarian and provenzal french samples closely..........it goes back at least 6 years

    Puglia has very ancient samples ..............but does the neolithic period have a close union with late bronze-age and iron-age periods or is the time gap too great ?

    If your C6 covers central italy and the Umbri and their sub-tribes of Sabellic, sabines, Samnites are all in central and south Italy ( not sicily ) and we are told the Umbri came from around central europe into Italy circa 2200BC, then is your C6 purely a central italian marker or should it be a central-northern italian marker ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    This paper shows that the Daunians in north Apulia were as much "south" (in the Italian cline, westward shift in the PCA) as central Italians and north Apulians today, and thought "west" of them (downward shift in the PCA), they are roughly as much west as moderno north Italians are to ancient north Italians, and a few samples as much south as south Italians, which seems to be the case for BA Sicilians, at least from this PCA

    Honestly I do not see why you have brought up this "Greek influence" thing: I do not see any one here arguing that ancient Daunians plotted where they plot because of Greek influence, or that modern south Italians are different from Daunians because of "Greek influence", whatever that means since it is you that are claiming south Italy was utterly resettled by Near Easterners and Greeks: we have no idea how Anatolians looked like in the Iron age (just two sampes from a study, who can a Persian and a Greek settlers), and coeval Levantines would have pulled south Italians, which doesn't appear to be the case, and indeed no genetic analysis up to now showed any Levantine influence in Italians, and I doubt that there was any significant numbers of caucasians brought into Italy. As for Greeks, they too seem now east of ancient Greeks, thus I do not see how Greeks and Near Easterners resettling all south Italy could explain Italian's genetics.
    By the way, the extract you posted speaks of a depopulation, but it offers no evidence of a resettlement of the east med peoples.

    Best you check for yourself Livy works on the area in question


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Do we have DNA from Apennine Culture, particularly from Southern Italy? I am pretty sure we don't



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apennine_culture
    One individual (GCP003) from Grotta Regina Margherita (Saupe et al. 2021), early Apennine culture (1600 BC) , but from Central Italy not South

    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    All I have seen by this paper, the 2 isotope papers and the 2 papers from the 2 italian women is that the daunians came from modern croatians lands .................I have attached part articles of the 2 italian women in earlier posts.
    Either all these papers , scholars, archeologists etc are wrong or ................
    As for your Bulgarian sample .................north-italians always match bulgarian and provenzal french samples closely..........it goes back at least 6 years
    Puglia has very ancient samples ..............but does the neolithic period have a close union with late bronze-age and iron-age periods or is the time gap too great ?
    If your C6 covers central italy and the Umbri and their sub-tribes of Sabellic, sabines, Samnites are all in central and south Italy ( not sicily ) and we are told the Umbri came from around central europe into Italy circa 2200BC, then is your C6 purely a central italian marker or should it be a central-northern italian marker ?
    The Italics were not C6, they were a C7 group that came to the south. C6 are the pre-Italics in my speculation.

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    what the romans state about apulia by roman writers


    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...y%3Dapulia-geo

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    All I have seen by this paper, the 2 isotope papers and the 2 papers from the 2 italian women is that the daunians came from modern croatians lands .................I have attached part articles of the 2 italian women in earlier posts.
    Either all these papers , scholars, archeologists etc are wrong or ................

    As for your Bulgarian sample .................north-italians always match bulgarian and provenzal french samples closely..........it goes back at least 6 years

    Puglia has very ancient samples ..............but does the neolithic period have a close union with late bronze-age and iron-age periods or is the time gap too great ?

    If your C6 covers central italy and the Umbri and their sub-tribes of Sabellic, sabines, Samnites are all in central and south Italy ( not sicily ) and we are told the Umbri came from around central europe into Italy circa 2200BC, then is your C6 purely a central italian marker or should it be a central-northern italian marker ?
    This is what Dodecad Globe 13 shows comparing Bulgarian_IA to modern populations. The closest are C_Italians, after them, Southern Italians.

    Distance to: Mathieson_et_al_2018:I5769
    4.35862364 C_Italian_D
    6.84000000 Sicilian_D
    7.14573999 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    8.34441130 Jovialis
    8.86282122 Tuscan
    9.62546622 TSI30
    9.75733570 Greek_D
    10.20468520 Ashkenazi_D
    10.67040768 Ashkenazy_Jews
    13.56376054 O_Italian_D
    14.68657891 Sephardic_Jews
    14.70032653 Morocco_Jews
    15.69992357 North_Italian
    17.52265962 N_Italian_D
    19.60529520 Canarias_1KG
    21.09306995 Murcia_1KG
    21.46964369 Andalucia_1KG
    22.00703524 Baleares_1KG
    22.84621632 Portuguese_D
    22.93891017 Cypriots
    23.00577319 Extremadura_1KG
    23.43219153 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    23.74488577 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    24.08098005 Galicia_1KG
    24.21164183 Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This is what Dodecad Globe 13 shows comparing Bulgarian_IA to modern populations. The closest are C_Italians, after them, Southern Italians.

    Distance to: Mathieson_et_al_2018:I5769
    4.35862364 C_Italian_D
    6.84000000 Sicilian_D
    7.14573999 S_Italian_Sicilian_D
    8.86282122 Tuscan
    9.62546622 TSI30
    9.75733570 Greek_D
    10.20468520 Ashkenazi_D
    10.67040768 Ashkenazy_Jews
    13.56376054 O_Italian_D
    14.68657891 Sephardic_Jews
    14.70032653 Morocco_Jews
    15.69992357 North_Italian
    17.52265962 N_Italian_D
    19.60529520 Canarias_1KG
    21.09306995 Murcia_1KG
    21.46964369 Andalucia_1KG
    22.00703524 Baleares_1KG
    22.84621632 Portuguese_D
    22.93891017 Cypriots
    23.00577319 Extremadura_1KG
    23.43219153 Turkish_Aydin_Ho
    23.74488577 Turkish_Cypriot_D
    24.08098005 Galicia_1KG
    24.21164183 Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG
    24.21610208 Bulgarians_Y
    I assume this calculator lacks Albanian as a reference? And probably many more reference populations. Am I correct?
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