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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

  1. #326
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    @Torzio
    … I can’t access your PC … yet

    … from your Video: … Terramare refugees bypassed the Etruscans, (guess they weren’t welcome), they kept heading Southeast, except for one group that went to Campania.

    🕷️

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Torzio
    … I can’t access your PC … yet



  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post




    I'm much more sophisticated than Anonymous.

    Maybe he's searching for some Daunian’s .bam :)

  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post


    I'm much more sophisticated than Anonymous.

    Maybe he's searching for some Daunian’s .bam :)
    Let's hope they are BAM, and not FASTQ. Otherwise, we will become aDNA before they are done processing. :)

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Rectification of the ancient geographic coordinates in
    Ptolemy’s Geographike Hyphegesis


    file:///C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/hgss-3-99-2012.pdf


    Abstract.AmultitudeoftheancientplacesgivenbyPtolemyinhisGeography(150 AD)aresofarun-
    known.One of the main problems of their identification are the errors of the given ancient coordinates.The
    different kinds of errors are illustrated by examples.A new geodetic-statistical analysis method is described,
    bywhichgroupsofplaceswithhomogeneoussystematicerrorsandplaceswithgrosserrorscanbedeter-
    mined.Based on a transformation function describing the systematic errors, presumable modern coordinates
    of unknown places can be computed.That, in conjunction with further information, can make possible their
    identification.Atestoftheanalysismethodiscarriedoutonacomplexsimulatedexampleandshowsits
    practicability. The analysis method has been applied within an interdisciplinary research project on Ptolemy’s
    Geography.


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ike_Hyphegesis


    I added the workable link
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  6. #331
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    https://www.academia.edu/35896111/Il...erranean_World


    Iapodes

    The Iapodic territory extended along the Adriatic coastline and covered almost all of modern-day Croatia. Their coastal boundary meant that they had access to trade with the Italic peoples and even Greek merchants. Like the Veneti-Illyrians, the Iapodes emulated Greek and Etruscan artistic conventions, so much so that their works are nearly identical.






    9This is certainly one of those Illyrian peoples most scarcely referred to. Straboidentifies them as Pannonian (Illyrian) people, along with Breuci, Deuri, Deretini,Dindari, Ditiones, Ditiones, Maezei and Daesitiates.
    12
    They started receiving Romancitizenship in the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117), along with other Illyrian communities of southeast Pannonia.
    13
    Pliny mentions several Pannonian civitates, including that of Andizetes, saying that their name was known before the Roman conquest, along withBoii, Breuci, Amantini, Scordisci and Latobici.
    14
    Although
    they didn‟t
    seem to have particularly significant role for the history of Illyrians, the Andizetes might be interesting in linguistic sense, for a mere fact that the
    possible root word „
    And
    ‟(izetes)
    is among the most frequently occurring linguisticelement throughout the entire territory inhabited by Illyrians, particularly in southeastPannonia. Thus we find personal Illyrian names like Andes (m.)/Andia (f)
    in Katiĉić‟s
    middle Dalmatian-Pannonian onomastic province (corresponding with modern Bosniaand Herzegovina), but also among the south-Illyrian names, with other variants likeAndena included. This name appears too on the list of Illyrian names in Dardanianterritory, in the form of Andio and Andinus, the latter being found among Dalmatians, inaddition to Andius, found in central Dalmatian group.
    15


  7. #332
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    This is certainly one of those Illyrian peoples most scarcely referred to. Straboidentifies them as Pannonian (Illyrian) people, along with Breuci, Deuri, Deretini, Dindari, Ditiones, Ditiones, Maezei and Daesitiates.

    They started receiving Roman citizenship in the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117), along with other Illyrian communities of southeast Pannonia.

    Pliny mentions several Pannonian civitates, including that of Andizetes, saying that their name was known before the Roman conquest, along with Boii, Breuci, Amantini, Scordisci and Latobici.

    Although they didn‟t seem to have particularly significant role for the history of Illyrians, the Andizetes might be interesting in linguistic sense, for a mere fact that the possible root word „And‟(izetes)
    is among the most frequently occurring linguistic element throughout the entire territory inhabited by Illyrians, particularly in southeast Pannonia. Thus we find personal Illyrian names like Andes (m.)/Andia (f)in Katiĉić‟s middle Dalmatian-Pannonian onomastic province (corresponding with modern Bosniaand Herzegovina), but also among the south-Illyrian names, with other variants like Andena included. This name appears too on the list of Illyrian names in Dardanian territory, in the form of Andio and Andinus, the latter being found among Dalmatians, in addition to Andius, found in central Dalmatian group.

  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks for sharing

    y dna
    ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

    ORD004- r1b-m269
    ORD011-r1b-p312
    SGR002-r1b-m269
    ORD014-j2b2 -L283
    SAL001-J2B -M241
    SAL010-J2B M241
    ORD019-I2D-Z2093
    SAL011-I2D-M223
    SGR001-I1-M253


    regions of samples :

    https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

    if we add the ancient croatian paper samples from august........

    we report new whole-genome data for 28 individuals dated to between ~ 4700 BCE–400 CE from two sites in present-day eastern Croatia.
    In the Middle Neolithic we evidence first cousin mating practices and strong genetic continuity
    from the Early Neolithic. In the Middle Bronze Age community that we studied, we find multiple
    closely related males suggesting a patrilocal social organisation. We also find in that community an
    unexpected genetic ancestry profile distinct from individuals found at contemporaneous sites in the
    region, due to the addition of hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. These findings support archaeological
    evidence for contacts with communities further north in the Carpathian Basin. Finally, an individual
    dated to Roman times exhibits an ancestry profile that is broadly present in the region today, adding
    an important data point to the substantial shift in ancestry that occurred in the region between the
    Bronze Age and today.


    8 x G2a ydna
    2 x I2a ydna
    1 x R1b
    1 X J
    1 x C


    so ancient Illyrians have G2a, I2a, J2b and R1b as majority ..................clearly G2a is in majority

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here I circled the location of R437 and R850, the two Latin "outliers".

    R437 plots right next to the IA Apulian ORDO01

    ORD001 was found to be the daughter of ORD009, with a much more Rome_Republican makeup, with an (unsampled) father who was certainly much more Caucasian and Middle Eastern-shifted, given the admixture makeup of the daughter ORD001. So ORD001 represents a very recent inter-ethnic mixing, not an average individual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

    There is the well-known story of the Etruscan Lucius Tarquinius Priscus who became King of Rome, the story was told by Emperor Claudius, considered an expert on Etruscan civilization and who had written in Greek the Tyrrhenica, a twenty-book Etruscan history, and a text on the Etruscan language. Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, born to a Greek father from Corinth and to an Etruscan mother from Tarquinia, was forced to migrate from Tarquinia to Rome because in Tarquinia the foreign origin of his father did not grant him access to public office. This story tells us that the Etruscans did not look kindly on those with foreign origins, but we don't know much more than that. We don't know if it was really so, and if it was so always during 1000 years. Because we must never forget that the Etruscan civilization lasted 10 centuries, 1000 years or so, the Etruscans were quite numerous and were spread over a very wide territory, which went from northern Italy to extensions in Campania, in Magna Graecia. If the Etruscans had a not very open attitude towards foreigners, most likely what happened in Rome, which was from the beginning the fusion of several different pre-Roman ethnic groups, will end up influencing gradually the attitude of the Etruscans as well.
    Tarquinius Priscus married an aristocratic Etruscan lady called Tanaquil so even Etruscan nobles did marry people of foreign extraction.

    Maybe public office was confined to a fixed and limited number of important families in Etruscan city states like Tarquinia.
    Rome on the other hand had a much more open society reflected in the legend that Romulus instituted an Asylum for foreigners, slave and free, to increase the population of early Rome.

  11. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    ORD001 was found to be the daughter of ORD009, with a much more Rome_Republican makeup, with an (unsampled) father who was certainly much more Caucasian and Middle Eastern-shifted, given the admixture makeup of the daughter ORD001. So ORD001 represents a very recent inter-ethnic mixing, not an average individual.
    Being that R850 is in the range of the father, who would be about equidistant from the Mother ORD009; I think it is likely that the more recent ancestry would be similar. R850 was a C5 person in Antonio et al. 2019 (Eastern Mediterranean, similar to modern Maltese-Cypriots). I think if this kind of ancestry was found in Central Italy, among a member of a Latin tribe, it is not unlikely to found in Puglia in the south. In Antonio et al. 2019, R850 formed a clade with Anatolian_IA. I would bet the father of ORD001 would also be a part of that clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.



    Daunians seem like Sardinian shifted Tuscans just like Etruscans are like Sardinian-shifted Northern Italians.
    To me it seems that Native Campanians fall into the Native-Apulian cluster, otherwise what is filling the empty space between the Aegean Cluster in the PCA below? Otherwise in that case Daunians would be closer to ancient Greeks than they actually are. Maybe I am wrong. Those "Etruscans" in this PCA, might not be the same as the ones we have seen, as they are even more eastern shifted than the Italics.

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    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.05085882 Sicilian_East
    0.05509976 Greek_Crete
    0.05545855 ITA_Sicily_LBA
    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.04994000 Sicilian_East
    0.05175499 ITA_Sicily_LBA
    0.05421812 Greek_Crete

    Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
    They were as close as modern Cretans are. Now I wish we had Daunian samples.

  14. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.05085882 Sicilian_East
    0.05509976 Greek_Crete
    0.05545855 ITA_Sicily_LBA
    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.04994000 Sicilian_East
    0.05175499 ITA_Sicily_LBA
    0.05421812 Greek_Crete
    Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
    They were as close as modern Cretans are. Now I wish we had Daunian samples.
    Me too, it is hard to guage when, some papers have released samples before even publishing, some a few days after the study is published from peer-review.

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    IHYPE 02: "Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
    They were as close as modern Cretans are."

    Thank-you. I've only been saying that for ten years. :) It took a long time to get actual proof.

    Now what I want to see is Bronze Age samples from the Salento, Basilicata, Calabria.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Me too, it is hard to guage when, some papers have released samples before even publishing, some a few days after the study is published from peer-review.
    Are they even supposed to publish them? I don't think they are coming, unless someone contacts them.

    Have you noticed how both Etruscans and Daunians are genetically diverse towards Sardinians. Maybe that existed in Sicily, from Sardinian shifted West Sicilians (that we have already seen) towards Minoans in the East like the Bell_Beaker_Sicily.

    Daunians will be even closer to Classical Greeks than the LBA Sicilians. I expect Lucanians to be like Daunians (I wont accept the rumours about them being Etruscan-like until I see it) and Eastern Sicilians to shift towards Bell_Beaker_Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post

    Daunians will be even closer to Classical Greeks than the LBA Sicilians. I expect Lucanians to be like Daunians (I wont accept the rumours about them being Etruscan-like until I see it) and Eastern Sicilians to shift towards Bell_Beaker_Sicily.
    It's a pity that you really can't look at them, even with one eye!

  18. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Are they even supposed to publish them? I don't think they are coming, unless someone contacts them.

    Have you noticed how both Etruscans and Daunians are genetically diverse towards Sardinians. Maybe that existed in Sicily, from Sardinian shifted West Sicilians (that we have already seen) towards Minoans in the East like the Bell_Beaker_Sicily.

    Daunians will be even closer to Classical Greeks than the LBA Sicilians. I expect Lucanians to be like Daunians (I wont accept the rumours about them being Etruscan-like until I see it) and Eastern Sicilians to shift towards Bell_Beaker_Sicily.

    more like ............etruscans and daunians are more northern shifted ( daunians came from dalmatia and liburnia lands ) ............and Lucanians and Bruttians are Samnite in origin and the samnites are Umbri in origin and Umbri are also northern shifted

  19. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    more like ............etruscans and daunians are more northern shifted ( daunians came from dalmatia and liburnia lands ) ............and Lucanians and Bruttians are Samnite in origin and the samnites are Umbri in origin and Umbri are also northern shifted
    Italy is isolated by the sea. Daunians and Messapians did not pop out of nowhere without 'cousins' in there. Maybe you are right but I prefer to wait and see actual Lucanian samples. I don't believe the Illyrian hypothesis. (Regarding Apulia)
    Etruscans spoke a non IE language after all.

  20. #345
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    The Goths had already run through the Balkans before SGR001 lived in Daunia. The east shift probably came from there. It would be interesting if SGR001 were even more east shifted at this time. The Volga to middle east connection could be a way, or known Byzantine guards. I hope we get a BAM to determine a subclade.

  21. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    The Goths had already run through the Balkans before SGR001 lived in Daunia. The east shift probably came from there. It would be interesting if SGR001 were even more east shifted at this time. The Volga to middle east connection could be a way, or known Byzantine guards. I hope we get a BAM to determine a subclade.
    correct
    Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774 AD )
    IIRC , someone said a goth from modern Moldova ( bessarabia province ) ....I will recheck
    the region was inhabited by Thracians, as well as for shorter periods by Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, and Celts, specifically by tribes such as the Costoboci, Carpi,
    The carpi where with the Goths
    could be any of these

  22. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Italy is isolated by the sea. Daunians and Messapians did not pop out of nowhere without 'cousins' in there. Maybe you are right but I prefer to wait and see actual Lucanian samples. I don't believe the Illyrian hypothesis. (Regarding Apulia)
    Etruscans spoke a non IE language after all.

    again … from Apulia, I don’t know to what extent my results correlate to Antiquity,

    … fwiw … though by distance while I’m not close to the Illyrians, it seems that they have left genetic markers in my chromosomes:



    Last edited by Salento; 10-10-21 at 05:35.

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