The genetic origin of Daunians

[Palermo Trapani]

Thank you Palermo. As usual your posts I find highly valuable.

Also, interesting thing. You are in my eyes the biggest proof there is continuity between certain ancient peoples of the Italian peninsula and modern ones. It might not be the case on an average basis. But when these discussions have been mentioned, you have popped in my mind, and I have amended my opinions when I would think different.

Edit: When the Pugliese I-M223 samples BAM file comes out I have a feeling you will find an ancient cousin.

ArchetypeOne: Your welcome my friend. Glad my posts add something to the forum and this thread in particular. Yes, it will be interesting to see how I plot relative to that I-M223 individual. As soon as the Kit is uploaded to GEDMATCH and sample is available at MTA, I plan to do the analysis. So you may be correct but on the other hand, I-M223 has been documented in Italy, Central Italy (Lazio) since late Mesolithic as those WHG in the Antonio et al 2019 paper were all I-M436, with 2 of them in the immediate downstream sub-clade I-M223. There is a pre-print "Genomic and dietary transitions during the Mesolithic and Early Neolithic in Sicily" that I am still hoping gets published soon and BAM files become publicly available as it has some samples from Trapani Province in Sicily (The Grotto Dell Uzzo site) not yet published. 4 WHG's are in the study and 2 of them are Y-DNA I, with one of them I-M436. There are 19 ancient Sicilian Genomes in that study. A couple of heavy hitters are on the paper, i.e. Haak and Krause.

 

[torzio]

This is what Dodecad Globe 13 shows comparing Bulgarian_IA to modern populations. The closest are C_Italians, after them, Southern Italians.

Distance to:	Mathieson_et_al_2018:I5769
4.35862364	C_Italian_D
6.84000000	Sicilian_D
7.14573999	S_Italian_Sicilian_D
8.34441130	Jovialis
8.86282122	Tuscan
9.62546622	TSI30
9.75733570	Greek_D
10.20468520	Ashkenazi_D
10.67040768	Ashkenazy_Jews
13.56376054	O_Italian_D
14.68657891	Sephardic_Jews
14.70032653	Morocco_Jews
15.69992357	North_Italian
17.52265962	N_Italian_D
19.60529520	Canarias_1KG
21.09306995	Murcia_1KG
21.46964369	Andalucia_1KG
22.00703524	Baleares_1KG
22.84621632	Portuguese_D
22.93891017	Cypriots
23.00577319	Extremadura_1KG
23.43219153	Turkish_Aydin_Ho
23.74488577	Turkish_Cypriot_D
24.08098005	Galicia_1KG
24.21164183	Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG

I cannot run global 13


but below is my 7

Distance to:	TorzioK7
2.67228367	N_Italian
5.24281413	North_Italian
5.67671560	Bulgarians
5.82555577	Romanians
6.63559342	Bulgarian
7.41330561	O_Italian
9.44473928	TSI30
9.53433270	Tuscan
10.58302887	Baleares
11.69294232	Extremadura
12.00096246	Andalucia
12.04304364	Murcia
12.20807520	Galicia
12.49627545	Portuguese
12.51850231	Spaniards
14.00975018	Castilla_La_Mancha
14.02857441	Castilla_Y_Leon
14.24651185	Cataluna
14.24987368	Canarias
14.29945803	Spanish
14.68853635	Valencia
16.08443658	Aragon
16.27375494	C_Italian
16.49227395	Cantabria
16.94057555	French

bulgarians with North -italians

 

[torzio]

dodecad 7b ancient

I removed everything in AD times

Distance to:	TorzioK7
1.61043472	Balkans_BronzeAge:I3313_Croatia_LBA
2.24388057	C7_Iron_Age_European:R474_(Etruscan)_Civitavecchia
2.24486080	Balkans_BronzeAge:I4332__Croatia_EMBA
2.67856305	C7_Iron_Age_European:R1_(Protovillanovan)_Martinsicuro
2.73038459	Balkans_BronzeAge:I4331_Croatia_EMBA
5.03334879	Balkans_BronzeAge:I2165_Bulgaria_EBA
6.72892265	Vucedol:I3499_Croatia_Vucedol
8.72565757	Beaker_N_Italy_BA:I1979

 

[Jovialis]

I cannot run global 13


but below is my 7

Distance to:	TorzioK7
2.67228367	N_Italian
5.24281413	North_Italian
5.67671560	Bulgarians
5.82555577	Romanians
6.63559342	Bulgarian
7.41330561	O_Italian
9.44473928	TSI30
9.53433270	Tuscan
10.58302887	Baleares
11.69294232	Extremadura
12.00096246	Andalucia
12.04304364	Murcia
12.20807520	Galicia
12.49627545	Portuguese
12.51850231	Spaniards
14.00975018	Castilla_La_Mancha
14.02857441	Castilla_Y_Leon
14.24651185	Cataluna
14.24987368	Canarias
14.29945803	Spanish
14.68853635	Valencia
16.08443658	Aragon
16.27375494	C_Italian
16.49227395	Cantabria
16.94057555	French

bulgarians with North -italians

What does this have to do with Bulgarian Iron Age though?

Modern Bulgarians are a 24 plus distances from the Iron Age Bulgarian sample we are talking about

Distance to:	Bulgarians_Y
24.21610208	I5769

 

[torzio]

What does this have to do with Bulgarian Iron Age though?

Modern Bulgarians are a 24 plus distances from the Iron Age Bulgarian sample we are talking about

Distance to:	Bulgarians_Y
24.21610208	I5769

already placed
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...NA-on-GEDmatch?p=581077&viewfull=1#post581077



female


"I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)*. Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm."


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26416319/

 

[Jovialis]

Modern Apulians are pulled in the direction of CHG, which is the opposite direction of North Africa, and the Moors. Also, modern DNA shows that Apulians only have trace amounts at most of North African. The modeling from Raveane et al. 2018 do not even model Apulians with North African.

From the Antonio et al. 2019 samples, we see some CHG/IN in Central Italian Neolithic samples at a relatively higher rate than for example LBK. Puglia has been a starting point for Neolithic migrations in Italy. Thus I believe that Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from the region will reflect higher CHG that was present in later farmers migrating from the East, already found in Greece_N. I think this legacy would have survived in Pre-Italic people. It would not have been in later comers like the Daunians. This is why C6 existed in the IA, among samples like R437.

All four grandparents of mine, come from the region as Bari. As far as I know, all four of their grandparents do as well. So my sample is a good proxy for the lack of a Puglia sample. Take a look at the PCA, this confirms what I am saying. My sample is pulled slightly upward on the PCA on the z-axis, toward CHG sources. In the opposite direction you have North African influence, which is why Canarias is on a different z-axis from North Italian. Despite Canarias being seemingly on the same general area as North Italian, on a 2D PCA. The 3D PCA shows there is indeed a difference, and that is due to North African influence in Canarias. The same is shown with Moorish samples from Medieval Spain. Seemingly they are with North Italian samples on a 2D PCA, but they actually exist far beneath that cloud cluster of Italian samples, on the z-axis. This is why 3D PCA analysis is far better than 2D.

 

[Jovialis]

 

[Jovialis]

Samples from Antonio et al. 2019,

Note the half-north African R475 and C3 North African cluster are much lower on the z-axis.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Samples from Antonio et al. 2019,

Note the half-north African R475 and C3 North African cluster are much lower on the z-axis.

R475 is unlikely half-north African, more likely her non-Etruscan ancestry was a Sardo-Punic mix, so 1/4 north African. You know, they used a neolithic sample from Morocco which also has ancestry from the neolithic of Iberia.

 

[Pax Augusta]

As for your Bulgarian sample .................north-italians always match bulgarian and provenzal french samples closely..........it goes back at least 6 years

You are confusing Bulgarian modern samples with Bulgaria_Iron Age

 

[Jovialis]

R475 is unlikely half-north African, more likely her non-Etruscan ancestry was a Sardo-Punic mix, so 1/4 north African. You know, they used a neolithic sample from Morocco which also has ancestry from the neolithic of Iberia.

I see, nevertheless the point I was making that it is pulled in the direction of North Africans, is evident by the position on the z-axis of the PCA.

The Paleolithic north Africans are even further down on the z axis, with neolithic Morocco intermediate between Europeans and Paleolithic north Africa.

 

[Pax Augusta]

I see, nevertheless the point I was making that it is pulled in the direction of North Africans, is evident by the position on the z-axis of the PCA.
The Paleolithic north Africans are even further down on the z axis, with neolithic Morocco intermediate between Europeans and Paleolithic north Africa.

Got it. In any case it is indeed pulled towards North Africans, the Sardinians themselves are in a certain sense, but R475 is not half North African as Antonio 2019 claims (Antonio claims that is 53% African which is even more confusing since we know that North Africans are different genetically from sub-Saharan African populations) and this is proved by the sample used by Antonio which is the same as a previous study that showed that in North Africa there had been gene flow from the Iberian Neolithic.

 

[kingjohn]

Maybe carthegenians influnce
On R475

 

[Pax Augusta]

Maybe carthegenians influnce
On R475

Sardo-Punic, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_people#Sardo-Punics

 

[torzio]

https://repository.library.brown.edu/studio/item/bdr:792869/PDF/

 

[kingjohn]

Sardo-Punic, I think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic_people#Sardo-Punics

I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paper
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...800-BCE-–-1-000-CE)/page6?p=628626#post628626

we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals

 

[Pax Augusta]

I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paper
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...800-BCE-–-1-000-CE)/page6?p=628626#post628626
we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals

Sure, it's possible. There were also slaves, not only foreign guests (traders, artisans...). The Etruscans were also as violent and predatory as any other ethnic group of the same era. Just recently, the skeleton of one who had been buried still in chains was found. But without knowing the archaeological context of each find it's not very informative. In any case, the study says that an Etruscan genetic profile is maintained throughout the course of the first millennium BC despite the presence of foreigners.

TAQ could be Tarquinia, in northern Lazio. I don't know what it could be VEN.

TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2b1a/


On Yfull L2a1c3a is found in a Spaniard, L2a1c3a2 in a Slovak. L2a1c3a in particular may have other possible explanations.

L2b1a. On Yfull among the Europeans there is a Spaniard and two Ligurians from Imperia, which is on the border with France.

 

[real expert]

I posted the mtdna in the future etruscan paper
If the dude from anthrogenica anlaysis of bam files is valid ...
Than there are 2 individuals who carry mtdna L2

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...800-BCE-–-1-000-CE)/page6?p=628626#post628626
we will have to wait for the full paper to be published to be sure
But there might be some north african influence even from back in the iron age
If it exist in mtdna types we could see it autosomally speaking in some individuals

I read somewhere that L2a1c3a is pretty common among North Africans. Furthermore, the abstract from this study did mention individuals with North African, Central European and Near Eastern ancestry. However, I don’t know whether they’re referring to mixed Etruscans or foreigners who resided in Etruria.

 

[bigsnake49]

ArchetypeOne: Here is the same analysis that Jovialis did in post #274 and what I did in post #277 using Eurogenes K13 updated Modern Populations which has 3 reference populations from Albania with Eurogenes K13 Ancient Coordinates for Bulgarian I5769.

Distance to:	I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
7.91786587	French_Corsica
9.16833136	PalermoTrapani_Combined
9.27951507	Italian_Lazio
9.87052177	Italian_Marche
10.09024281	Italian_Umbria
11.16326117	Italian_Tuscan
11.26628599	Italian_Romagna
11.74729756	Italian_Abruzzo
11.75408440	Italian
11.93531734	Italian_Molise
12.28392038	Italian_Sicily
12.29196486	Italian_Apulia
12.41296902	Italian_Basilicata
13.26128953	Greek_Western-Thrace
13.31609552	Italian_Campania
13.43489486	Italian_Emilia
13.95051970	Italian_Liguria
14.37559738	Malta
14.56942346	Greek_Cyclades
14.56986616	Moroccan_Jew
14.84789547	Italian_Calabria
15.40336002	Greek_Athens
15.53956241	Italian_Lombardy
16.22616714	Greek_Ionia
16.25672476	Albanian_Tosk

Ancient Thracians are pretty hard to place among modern populations.

 

[torzio]

Sure, it's possible. There were also slaves, not only foreign guests (traders, artisans...). The Etruscans were also as violent and predatory as any other ethnic group of the same era. Just recently, the skeleton of one who had been buried still in chains was found. But without knowing the archaeological context of each find it's not very informative. In any case, the study says that an Etruscan genetic profile is maintained throughout the course of the first millennium BC despite the presence of foreigners.

TAQ could be Tarquinia, in northern Lazio. I don't know what it could be VEN.

TAQ011 (C7858T 92.0% -0 +4): L2a1c3a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2a1c3a/

VEN009 (C16355T 87.0% -0 +9): L2b1a

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L2b1a/


On Yfull L2a1c3a is found in a Spaniard, L2a1c3a2 in a Slovak. L2a1c3a in particular may have other possible explanations.

L2b1a. On Yfull among the Europeans there is a Spaniard and two Ligurians from Imperia, which is on the border with France.

an old member of Eupedia

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...A-haplogroup-L?p=427426&viewfull=1#post427426

surname Corso and paternal Grandfather from Belluno....grandmother from Piemonte

My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto.

Is this the imperia one ?