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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

  1. #376
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here they are:

    Code:
    ORD001,2.13,0,3.17,1.09,29.5,31.57,0,0.75,9.39,1.76,20.64,0
    ORD004,0,0,0,0,44.67,29.85,0,0,0.14,0,22.4,2.95
    ORD006,0,0,0,2.54,41.99,25.03,0,0,8.55,0,21.11,0.78
    ORD009,4.03,0.65,1.42,0.98,38.29,23.77,0,0,7.95,0,22.52,0.39
    ORD010,4.29,0,2.9,0,26.43,12.34,0,1.12,17.75,0,35.16,0
    ORD011,0,0,0,0,41.49,23.76,0,0,8.92,0.98,24.85,0
    ORD014,0,2.06,4.08,0,43.2,28.47,0.29,0,2.97,0,18.93,0
    ORD019,1.73,0,0.9,0,38.01,22.88,2.51,0,0,0,33.46,0.52
    SAL001,0,0,3.78,3.04,43.72,32.79,0,3.1,2.05,0,11.51,0
    SAL003,0,0,1.91,0,39.06,17.5,0,0,7.93,0,33.23,0.38
    SAL007,4.63,0,0,0,53.35,16.94,0,0,6.74,0,18.34,0
    SAL010,4.31,0,0,0.02,45.37,38.34,0,0,0,0,11.95,0
    SAL011,8.8,0,0.77,0.26,61.26,14.72,0,0,5.84,0,8.35,0
    SGR001,9.06,4.24,0,2.32,23.85,12.46,0.86,3.12,3.86,0,40.22,0
    SGR002,1.02,0.6,2.92,0,45.47,29.36,0,0.66,5.54,0,14.06,0.37
    SGR003,2.69,0,1.74,2.68,40.79,15.65,0,1.55,7.31,0,27.6,0

    nice jovialis
    there had to be some east med geneflow or muslim influence
    in those 2 medieval apulians

    if iron age apulians cluster with north italians
    Distance to: adam
    7.88524572 ORD010
    13.57914209 SGR001
    18.92121825 SAL003
    20.41120036 SGR003
    21.80213751 ORD009
    22.72310498 ORD019
    23.46603503 ORD001
    24.30291341 ORD011
    26.86017126 ORD006
    31.10948730 ORD014
    32.69720324 ORD004
    34.46707414 SGR002
    34.48557670 SAL007
    37.84124866 SAL001
    41.26958081 SAL010
    45.86882165 SAL011
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

  2. #377
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    Any word on when the Danubian Limes samples are coming out? I also have my eye on that one.

  3. #378
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    ORD009 is the highest quality sample plus it's more Northern (that's why they score Liguria first) than other samples. So Daunians are indeed closer to Central Italians. I am gonna wish for better quality for Messapians. Let's wait how G25 results are.


    Distance to: ORD009
    2.01910871 Italian_Liguria
    2.79744526 Italian_Lombardy
    3.22854456 Italian_Emilia
    3.59342455 Italian_Piedmont
    4.42649975 Italian_Tuscany
    4.63920252 Italian_Veneto
    5.98281811 Swiss_Italian
    6.84963503 Italian_Friuli_VG
    7.04014204 Italian_Romagna
    7.08038841 Italian_Trentino
    7.46207076 French_Corsica
    8.95600916 Italian_Umbria
    9.62911730 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.41710056 Italian_Marche
    10.45613695 Spanish_Baleares
    10.56515499 Italian_Lazio
    11.38797612 Portuguese
    11.40762903 Albanian_Kosovo
    11.43364771 Spanish_Canarias
    11.64887548 Macedonian_Vardar
    11.78715827 Macedonian_South
    12.34889874 Macedonian_East
    12.36776051 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.91960913 Spanish_Valencia
    12.94037480 Greek_Thessaly

  4. #379
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Here is something interesting I observed with these samples:

    If we compare what makes me different from the Daunian ORD009, we can see it points to the Caucasus.

    Basically, I can be modeled as 2/3rd IA_Daunian + 1/3rd BA_Caucasian.


    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: ORD009
    B: Jovialis
    C: ↴
    -15.23933546 Balkans_N:I1113:Mathieson_2018
    -15.21606936 France_EBA:EUG11:Brunel_2020
    -15.20671528 Malak_Preslavets:I1108:Mathieson_2018
    -15.08927813 NE_Iberia_Greek_(Empúries1):I8344:Olalde_2019
    -15.08910642 WHG-like_Brunn_am_Gebirge:I6913:Nikitin_2019
    -15.03695833 C_Iberia_BA:I12855:Olalde_2019
    -15.03144599 I7673:Olalde_2019
    -14.99370136 France_EBA:PSS4170:Brunel_2020
    -14.99293888 Hallstatt_C-Early_La_Tène_IA:NOR4:Brunel_2020
    -14.99228732 Germany_MN:I1560_d:Lipson_2017
    -14.98727896 I12171:Olalde_2019
    -14.98470186 E_Iberia_IA:I12877:Olalde_2019
    -14.97922079 C7-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R37:Antonio_2 019
    -14.97882381 N_Iberia_IA:I3759:Olalde_2019
    -14.93777050 NE_Iberia_c6-8CE_ES:I3775:Olalde_2019
    -14.91726302 I6468:Olalde_2018
    -14.91717211 C_Iberia_BA:I6470:Olalde_2019
    -14.91653353 I3757:Olalde_2019
    -14.88978126 Iron_Gates_HG_o:I5232:Mathieson_2018
    -14.88667998 Blatterhohle_MN:I1593:Lipson_2017
    -14.86355555 utigGCP002A1:Saupe_2021
    -14.86141708 Oberbipp_Horgen_(CH):MX299:Furtwängler_2020
    -14.85661656 I3758:Olalde_2019
    -14.83935171 La_Tène_IA:PECH5:Brunel_2020
    -14.83649209 I8339:Olalde_2019

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: ORD009
    B: Jovialis
    C: ↴
    15.08434398 Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020
    15.07452203 Arslantepe_LC:ART018_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
    15.05756329 Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002:Skourtanioti_2020
    15.04564170 Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002:Skourtanioti_2020
    15.02465394 Arslantepe_LC:ART018_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
    15.02363386 C4-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1551:Antonio_2019
    14.96473381 Arslantepe_LC:ART027_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.96467911 Alalakh_MLBA:ALA039:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.94355143 Arslantepe_LC:ART017_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.94045964 C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
    14.93674483 C5-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1548:Antonio_2019
    14.91465053 Arslantepe_LC:ART004:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.90852467 Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.90561583 Arslantepe_LC:ART017_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.87013399 Arslantepe_LC:ART027_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.86993140 C5-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1543:Ant onio_2019
    14.86829986 Kura-Araxes_EBA:I1635:Lazaridis_2016
    14.83747371 Arslantepe_EBA:ART010_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
    14.81610655 C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
    14.81016474 C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R67:Antonio_2019
    14.80085039 Kura-Araxes:ARM002:Wang_2019
    14.79635809 C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R68:Antonio_2019
    14.78728982 C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
    14.76468951 Kura-Araxes:ARM003:Wang_2019
    14.76432845 C4-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R38:Antonio_2 019

    Distance to: Jovialis
    15.41134647 ORD009
    31.49167668 Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020


    Distance to: Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020
    7.56879779 Armenian

    Target: Jovialis
    Distance: 2.5944% / 2.59444185
    67.4 ORD009
    32.6 Caucasus_lowlands_LN

  5. #380
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    nice jovialis
    there had to be some east med geneflow or muslim influence
    in those 2 medieval apulians

    if iron age apulians cluster with north italians
    Distance to: adam
    7.88524572 ORD010
    13.57914209 SGR001
    18.92121825 SAL003
    20.41120036 SGR003
    21.80213751 ORD009
    22.72310498 ORD019
    23.46603503 ORD001
    24.30291341 ORD011
    26.86017126 ORD006
    31.10948730 ORD014
    32.69720324 ORD004
    34.46707414 SGR002
    34.48557670 SAL007
    37.84124866 SAL001
    41.26958081 SAL010
    45.86882165 SAL011
    I would bet that ORD010 probably has some Saracen influence, because the difference between me and that sample is straight up Levantine (Natufian-admixed):

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: Jovialis
    B: ORD010
    C: ↴
    -10.53624136 NE_Iberia_RomP:I6491:Olalde_2019
    -10.27504144 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R970:Antonio_2019
    -10.01483253 Altenerding-Klettham_(ADH)_Female_338-475calAD_485-535AD:AED125b:Veeramah_2018
    -9.91936428 I5015:Olalde_2018
    -9.67374454 I5017:Olalde_2018
    -9.66429559 Beaker_Central_Europe:I3599:Olalde_2018
    -9.64962796 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    -9.63630733 Nordic_Type-(ADH)_Female:STR535:Veeramah_2018
    -9.55754948 I12164:Olalde_2019
    -9.53507947 Beaker_Central_Europe:I3604:Olalde_2018
    -9.48121063 Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
    -9.46913328 Collegno53:Amorim_2018
    -9.45725849 NE_Iberia_c6CE_PL:I12033:Olalde_2019
    -9.33903474 Scythian:scy311:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    -9.33318290 I7639:Olalde_2018
    -9.32765867 I3596:Olalde_2018
    -9.32691776 La_Tène_IA:ERS1164:Brunel_2020
    -9.31767161 I5520:Olalde_2018
    -9.30865784 I4945:Olalde_2018
    -9.27111586 Scythian:scy304:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    -9.25907713 I4249:Olalde_2018
    -9.25688430 Beaker_Central_Europe:I7275:Olalde_2018
    -9.23792007 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    -9.22638550 Beaker_Central_Europe:E09538:Olalde_2018
    -9.22528592 I4946:Olalde_2018

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Jovialis
    B: ORD010
    C: ↴
    10.81446901 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1155:Harn ey_2018
    10.76226857 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1184:Harn ey_2018
    10.71873744 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1168:Harn ey_2018
    10.61897638 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1160:Harn ey_2018
    10.58272221 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1164:Harn ey_2018
    10.56551352 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1180:Harn ey_2018
    10.53689977 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1154:Harn ey_2018
    10.48148864 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1152:Harn ey_2018
    10.47617483 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1171:Harn ey_2018
    10.45526043 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1182:Harn ey_2018
    10.45360428 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1170:Harn ey_2018
    10.42423346 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1179:Harn ey_2018
    10.41340206 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1178:Harn ey_2018
    10.41286048 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1187:Harn ey_2018
    10.40855683 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1169:Harn ey_2018
    10.37954854 Levant_N:I1701:Lazaridis_2016
    10.37856112 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1172:Harn ey_2018
    10.36889147 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1183_d:Ha rney_2018
    10.33905922 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1166:Harn ey_2018
    10.21250240 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1177:Harn ey_2018
    10.20040256 Levant_BA:I1730:Lazaridis_2016
    10.11243002 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1165:Harn ey_2018
    10.10606830 İkiztepe_LC:IKI038:Skourtanioti_2020
    10.06338678 Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134:Schuenemann_2017
    10.02975211 LBK_EN:I2005:Lipson_2017

  6. #381
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    Dodecad 12B distances (Top 10) for Danubians using Estrucan and Basilicata samples from Posth et al 2021 paper "The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transect"

    Distance to: SGR003
    5.94590615 ETR010
    7.06024787 ETR006
    8.39179957 POP001
    8.51145111 ETR013
    9.04584988 TAQ022
    9.51753119 TAQ009
    10.03700653 TAQ011
    10.08439884 TAQ020
    10.35107724 VEU001
    10.53070273 VET001

    Distance to: SGR002
    4.68212559 PRZ002
    6.89088528 CAM001
    6.90240538 TAQ001
    7.11973314 TAQ016
    7.37112610 CSN010
    7.39902021 CSN008
    7.56595004 TAQ019
    7.65233951 TAQ004
    7.81037771 CAM003
    8.03080320 CSN001

    Distance to: SGR001
    14.15046289 VEN012
    14.77935046 ETR014
    14.94171008 TAQ003
    14.97329623 VEN006
    15.32855831 VEN005
    15.49594140 VEN013
    16.08058768 VEN015
    16.36894621 TAQ021
    16.59850596 MAS002
    16.82142087 VEN001

    Distance to: SAL011
    14.32201452 TAQ012
    16.32623043 CSN004
    17.06387119 TAQ008
    17.38105290 VET007
    17.92161823 TAQ017
    18.05106091 CSN003
    18.65095976 CSN007
    18.69448849 VET011
    19.16083505 CAM003
    19.56583246 VET002

    Distance to: SAL010
    6.28593668 VET005
    8.33964628 CAM002
    10.78882755 CSN010
    12.86447045 UDC_P
    13.26703433 CSN008
    13.73138376 MAS004
    13.88514314 PRZ002
    14.51640107 CSN012
    16.13642463 CSN005
    16.57881479 CSN002

    Distance to: SAL007
    3.42147629 TAQ012
    5.19651807 CSN004
    5.98080262 TAQ017
    6.70681743 VET007
    6.74945183 TAQ008
    7.19252390 VET002
    7.78009640 CSN007
    8.32338873 CSN003
    8.35371774 TAQ018
    8.74006293 TAQ013

    Distance to: SAL003
    6.39077460 ETR010
    8.16328978 POP001
    8.36761615 ETR013
    8.95930801 TAQ009
    9.59400855 TAQ022
    9.79175674 ETR006
    10.60465935 TAQ021
    10.91983058 TAQ011
    10.95366605 VEN017
    11.68952950 TAQ020

    Distance to: SAL001
    8.18297012 CSN010
    8.57958624 CAM002
    9.74403407 PRZ002
    10.28883861 UDC_P
    11.24469653 VET005
    11.52591428 CSN012
    11.69528110 CSN008
    11.78300471 CSN005
    11.97888559 MAS004
    12.27830200 TAQ001

    Distance to: ORD019
    10.48864148 TAQ022
    11.55514171 POP001
    11.60765265 CSN009
    11.64505474 TAQ006
    12.29873977 ETR010
    12.69123319 TAQ009
    12.76714925 CSN002
    13.35416414 TAQ020
    13.99194054 ETR013
    14.23710645 VEU001

    Distance to: ORD014
    5.32971857 PRZ002
    5.42706182 MAS004
    5.73863224 CSN005
    6.33037124 VOL001
    6.77239987 TAQ006
    6.88430824 CSN008
    7.08674820 TAQ019
    7.19277415 TAQ001
    7.22886575 CSN009
    7.28420208 VET001

    Distance to: ORD011
    5.39201261 VET001
    6.18942647 VOL001
    7.16297424 TAQ002
    7.51988032 TAQ006
    7.94584797 VEU001
    8.00527326 CSN001
    8.19323501 MAG001
    8.30339690 TAQ015
    8.49814097 ETR005
    8.56479422 CSN009

    Distance to: ORD010
    4.59941301 ETR014
    6.78947715 MAS002
    7.29499143 VEN015
    8.56057241 VEN012
    8.65677769 VEN016
    8.91321491 TAQ021
    9.42338050 TAQ003
    10.06500869 VEN013
    10.17965127 VEN005
    10.61008011 VEN001

    Distance to: ORD009
    5.24433027 VET001
    7.36747582 CSN005
    7.46725519 CSN009
    7.58424683 VOL001
    8.18590252 TAQ006
    8.43888618 POP001
    8.66895034 TAQ022
    8.76640177 CSN006
    8.81552040 CSN013
    8.85961060 CSN008

    Distance to: ORD006
    4.23157181 VET001
    5.10840484 VOL001
    5.81871120 CSN001
    5.99354653 TAQ002
    6.73645307 CSN006
    6.74083081 ETR005
    7.07381085 TAQ015
    7.34993197 VEU001
    7.43492434 CAM001
    7.55246979 TAQ019

    Distance to: ORD004
    3.90639220 MAS004
    6.47434167 CSN002
    7.08855415 CSN009
    7.15793266 MAG001
    7.71954014 TAQ006
    8.15677632 CSN008
    8.26452660 TAQ010
    8.26899631 VOL001
    8.42884334 PRZ002
    8.78585795 TAQ002

    Distance to: ORD001
    7.15296442 MAS001
    9.94691409 ETR007
    11.19466391 CSN005
    13.56424344 CSN009
    14.68057901 CAM002
    15.07017253 CSN010
    15.19138243 TAQ009
    15.30518213 VET001
    15.69626707 TAQ011
    15.76193199 ETR003

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here is something interesting I observed with these samples:

    If we compare what makes me different from the Daunian ORD009, we can see it points to the Caucasus.

    Basically, I can be modeled as 2/3rd IA_Daunian + 1/3rd BA_Caucasian.


    Target: Jovialis
    Distance: 2.5944% / 2.59444185
    67.4 ORD009
    32.6 Caucasus_lowlands_LN

    As far as the Daunians being "natives", they have only been in the region as long as the late Bronze age, which is probably after the arrival of the CHG-pulse into the region from the Early Bronze Age:

    Towards the late Bronze Age (11th-10th centuries BC), Illyrian populations from the eastern Adriatic arrived in Apulia.[4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians

  8. #383
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    ^^
    hmmm, this makes me ponder this observation a bit more:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Another interesting thing I noticed,

    FWIW, these samples get little to no Gedrosia; instead they 20-30% Caucasus. Typically, populations in places like Northern Europe get Gedrosia, which could probably be attributed to the CHG in Steppe. Caucasus was speculated by some respectable posters here to be attributed to non-steppe related CHG.

  9. #384
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I would be hesitant to draw a lot of conclusions from these samples given that a lot of them are of poor quality, which is why so many aren't really close to anyone.

    Perhaps the analysis should only center on the ones which are of decent quality.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    My analysis similar to Jovialis Post #380. My results are consistent with his.

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
    A: PalermoTrapani_Combined
    B: ORD010
    C: ↴
    -7.60404166 I3574:Olalde_2019
    -7.52651938 Collegno121:Amorim_2018
    -7.49438938 I12173:Olalde_2019
    -7.48455582 bns023-b1e1l1:Krzewinska_2018_(Sept)
    -7.39565774 I2469:Olalde_2019
    -7.37212878 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    -7.23687882 I3587:Olalde_2018
    -7.22413589 Beaker_Central_Europe:I5022:Olalde_2018
    -7.19709389 I4936:Olalde_2018
    -7.18030356 Mallorca_EBA_Cova_des_Moro:I4329:Fernandes_2020
    -7.15935268 C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R113:Antoni o_2019
    -7.14939480 ETR012:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    -7.14490600 Sardinia_Early_Medieval_Grotta_Colombi:I12221:Fern andes_2020
    -7.13403701 SE_Iberia_c10-16CE:I12649:Olalde_2019
    -7.11298941 I4556:Olalde_2019
    -7.09864361 C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019
    -7.09719330 France_LBA:NIED:Brunel_2020
    -7.08668031 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R118:An tonio_2019
    -7.05726813 E_Iberia_IA:I3327:Olalde_2019
    -7.05251212 I12164:Olalde_2019
    -7.03541865 SE_Iberia_c10-16CE:I12648:Olalde_2019
    -7.03071986 utigGCP003A1:Saupe_2021
    -7.02513885 SE_Iberia_c5-8CE:I3981:Olalde_2019
    -7.00738450 CSN012:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    -7.00619696 I5520:Olalde_2018

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: PalermoTrapani_Combined
    B: ORD010
    C: ↴
    7.62746112 LBK_EN:I2005:Lipson_2017
    7.54455032 Levant_N:I1701:Lazaridis_2016
    7.50633295 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1154:Harn ey_2018
    7.40042482 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1155:Harn ey_2018
    7.29718534 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1180:Harn ey_2018
    7.21369026 Levant_BA:I1730:Lazaridis_2016
    7.19247760 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1184:Harn ey_2018
    7.15732360 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1168:Harn ey_2018
    7.11995164 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1164:Harn ey_2018
    7.08077779 İkiztepe_LC:IKI038:Skourtanioti_2020
    7.03199985 Ashkelon_IA2:ASH087:Feldman_2019_(Jul.)
    7.00796010 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1179:Harn ey_2018
    6.99978564 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1160:Harn ey_2018
    6.97243214 Ebla_EMBA:ETM001:Skourtanioti_2020
    6.86436526 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1172:Harn ey_2018
    6.85563516 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1170:Harn ey_2018
    6.85182247 Ashkelon_LBA:ASH033:Feldman_2019_(Jul.)
    6.81281654 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1171:Harn ey_2018
    6.76164418 Alalakh_MLBA:ALA008:Skourtanioti_2020
    6.74713749 TellKurdu_MC:KRD002:Skourtanioti_2020
    6.73423037 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1152:Harn ey_2018
    6.73307736 Ebla_EMBA:ETM012:Skourtanioti_2020
    6.71805248 Ebla_EMBA:ETM006:Skourtanioti_2020
    6.68537518 Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134:Schuenemann_2017
    6.67863808 Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1166:Harn ey_2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I would be hesitant to draw a lot of conclusions from these samples given that a lot of them are of poor quality, which is why so many aren't really close to anyone.

    Perhaps the analysis should only center on the ones which are of decent quality.
    Considering the disappointment with ORD001, I'd say caution is certainly advised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I don't see any Mycenaen ...I see

    The excess of WHG ancestry, tentatively suggesting a local origin, is somewhat blurred by
    the genetic similarity of the two most probable sources - Illyrians (Croatia EIA) and an
    autochthonous one (Roman Republicans),
    What local origin? They arrived in the late Bronze Age. You think local WHG were hiding out there???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    5.95642510 ORD009
    9.51839272 ORD011
    10.24488165 ORD001
    11.15438927 ORD006
    12.28001221 SGR003
    12.67598911 SAL003
    13.63475339 ORD019
    14.88423999 ORD014
    16.70144605 ORD004
    18.06751228 SGR002
    19.09894500 ORD010
    21.58455235 SAL001
    22.56468923 SAL007
    23.16593836 SGR001
    24.63075923 SAL010
    34.44569349 SAL011


    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 1.0829% / 1.08293744
    44.1 ORD010
    35.5 SAL010
    12.4 ORD001
    5.7 SGR001
    2.3 ORD019

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    1.86443024 56.40% ORD010 + 43.60% SAL010
    3.98207912 56.00% ORD001 + 44.00% SAL003
    4.01431492 55.20% ORD001 + 44.80% SGR003
    4.01803163 81.00% ORD009 + 19.00% ORD010
    4.35577089 84.80% ORD009 + 15.20% SGR001
    4.87401567 27.60% ORD001 + 72.40% ORD009
    4.98628964 53.20% ORD010 + 46.80% SAL001
    5.10902167 43.20% ORD010 + 56.80% ORD014
    5.55306597 48.40% ORD010 + 51.60% SGR002
    5.67802622 86.20% ORD009 + 13.80% SAL003
    5.72055191 88.20% ORD009 + 11.80% ORD019
    5.74473328 53.80% ORD004 + 46.20% ORD010
    6.09981128 59.80% ORD001 + 40.20% ORD019
    6.13613457 47.00% ORD001 + 53.00% ORD011
    6.29570425 43.20% SGR001 + 56.80% SGR002
    6.40835574 71.00% ORD006 + 29.00% SGR001
    6.50903862 69.40% ORD001 + 30.60% ORD010
    6.66392019 74.00% ORD001 + 26.00% SGR001
    6.66828677 66.60% ORD006 + 33.40% ORD010
    6.95664131 77.20% ORD011 + 22.80% SGR001
    7.21921738 26.00% ORD010 + 74.00% ORD011
    7.27633486 74.80% ORD001 + 25.20% SAL007
    7.58598899 63.00% ORD014 + 37.00% SGR001
    7.68739715 54.40% ORD001 + 45.60% ORD006
    7.92107654 52.00% SAL001 + 48.00% SGR001
    Thanks, Stuvane.

    This is a prime example of why the two way admixture function is so misleading and unhelpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Considering the disappointment with ORD001, I'd say caution is certainly advised.
    Is there a list of the samples by quality? Did I miss it?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Jovialis: Following your post in #379, I get a reasonable 2-way fit with 1 of the Iron Age Daunians (from Salapia) and Caucus Lowlands. My results are similar to yours again. So if I understand your post correctly, you are suggesting an CHG or Iran Neolithic type admixture into Southern Italy/Sicily that predates Roman period and even bronze age. I think some of the previous papers have been suggesting this (e.g., Antonio et al 2019). If I am wrong, my apologies. Thanks for the coordinates again.



    Target: PalermoTrapani_Combined
    Distance: 3.2712% / 3.27117932 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    68.8 SAL003
    31.2 Caucasus_lowlands_LC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    Is there a list of the samples by quality? Did I miss it?

    Thanks in advance.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....524#post819524

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    Is there a list of the samples by quality? Did I miss it?

    Thanks in advance.
    Indeed, most of them are very low-coverage, even in the single digits; with the exception of ORD009 and ORD010:


    Filename Calculator Genotype ratio
    ORD001.txt Dodecad K12b 4.22%
    ORD004.txt Dodecad K12b 4.23%
    ORD006.txt Dodecad K12b 12.85%
    ORD009.txt Dodecad K12b 65.02%
    ORD010.txt Dodecad K12b 62.17%
    ORD011.txt Dodecad K12b 9.53%
    ORD014.txt Dodecad K12b 11.36%
    ORD019.txt Dodecad K12b 4.96%
    SAL001.txt Dodecad K12b 5.14%
    SAL003.txt Dodecad K12b 11.56%
    SAL007.txt Dodecad K12b 3.71%
    SAL010.txt Dodecad K12b 3.17%
    SAL011.txt Dodecad K12b 5.00%
    SGR001.txt Dodecad K12b 4.71%
    SGR002.txt Dodecad K12b 10.43%
    SGR003.txt Dodecad K12b 5.99%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Jovialis: Following your post in #379, I get a reasonable 2-way fit with 1 of the Iron Age Daunians (from Salapia) and Caucus Lowlands. My results are similar to yours again. So if I understand your post correctly, you are suggesting an CHG or Iran Neolithic type admixture into Southern Italy/Sicily that predates Roman period and even bronze age. I think some of the previous papers have been suggesting this (e.g., Antonio et al 2019). If I am wrong, my apologies. Thanks for the coordinates again.



    Target: PalermoTrapani_Combined
    Distance: 3.2712% / 3.27117932 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    68.8 SAL003
    31.2 Caucasus_lowlands_LC
    We see a CHG pulse into the Mediterranean which some speculate may have come in the early Bronze age (Raveane et al. 2018). A good paper to get familiar with much of this is Sarno et al. 2021.

    This is supported by the fact that Minoans, Mycenaeans, Daunians, Latins, Etruscans, South Eastern Iberians, BA Sicilians, and Sardinians all must be modeled with extra CHG/Iran_N along with regular Steppe, in their modeling for academic papers.

    It is also possible it has been trickling in slowly since earlier times, as seen in Neolithic Central Italian samples, that can be modeled better with (95%) Central Anatolian farmers, than others like LBK. As well as J2 being present there as well since the neolithic.

    We also see a great push of CHG into Anatolia during the copper age, westward. As well as massive diffusion of this kind of ancestry into the Levant, supplanting haplogroups, and becoming a very strong component there; prior to which was mostly Levant_N and Anatolian_N.

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    ^^Looking forward to the Balkan IA samples, because they will likely show more of the same, especially since they need to be modeled with Aegean_IA.

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    My results again with the admixture and two way results included.

    Distance to: Angela
    5.50442549 SGR003
    7.36377621 ORD009
    8.12565074 ORD011
    8.76072486 SAL003
    10.57615242 ORD006
    10.62336576 ORD019
    13.79169315 ORD014
    14.71112164 ORD004
    15.53606771 SAL007
    17.38914029 SGR002
    18.57492396 ORD001
    21.72402587 ORD010
    21.96395911 SAL001
    23.93889931 SGR001
    25.43408540 SAL010
    28.23543873 SAL011

    SGR 003
    Distance to: SGR003
    4.94254995 French_Corsica
    8.92909850 Italian_Tuscany
    9.45517319 Italian_Romagna
    9.62746072 Italian_Emilia
    9.94150391 Italian_Liguria
    10.13745353 Italian_Marche
    10.27812240 Italian_Umbria
    11.39715754 Italian_Lombardy
    11.57066117 Italian_Lazio
    13.22713877 Italian_Piedmont
    13.74658867 Italian_Veneto
    14.48500259 Italian_Abruzzo
    14.84739034 Italian_Molise
    15.23313206 Swiss_Italian
    15.48784039 Albanian
    15.61807607 Italian_Campania
    16.53730933 Italian_Friuli_VG
    16.64232556 Italian_Trentino
    16.65447988 Albanian_Kosovo
    16.72953974 Greek_Central
    16.74756400 Italian_Sicily
    16.76540784 Greek_Athens
    16.82096311 Greek_Thessaly
    16.84315588 Greek_Thrace
    16.88500222 Italian_Basilicata


    ORD009
    Distance to: ORD009
    2.01910871 Italian_Liguria
    2.79744526 Italian_Lombardy
    3.22854456 Italian_Emilia
    3.59342455 Italian_Piedmont
    4.42649975 Italian_Tuscany
    4.63920252 Italian_Veneto
    5.98281811 Swiss_Italian
    6.84963503 Italian_Friuli_VG
    7.04014204 Italian_Romagna
    7.08038841 Italian_Trentino
    7.46207076 French_Corsica
    8.95600916 Italian_Umbria
    9.62911730 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.41710056 Italian_Marche
    10.45613695 Spanish_Baleares
    10.56515499 Italian_Lazio
    11.38797612 Portuguese
    11.40762903 Albanian_Kosovo
    11.43364771 Spanish_Canarias
    11.64887548 Macedonian_Vardar
    11.78715827 Macedonian_South
    12.34889874 Macedonian_East
    12.36776051 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    12.91960913 Spanish_Valencia
    12.94037480 Greek_Thessaly

    Distance to: ORD011
    6.42186110 Italian_Lombardy
    6.88650855 Italian_Liguria
    7.63293522 Italian_Emilia
    8.10289454 Italian_Tuscany
    8.50312663 Swiss_Italian
    8.54601077 French_Corsica
    8.63030127 Italian_Piedmont
    8.88684421 Italian_Veneto
    10.06520740 Italian_Romagna
    10.09342856 Italian_Trentino
    10.92957913 Italian_Friuli_VG
    11.61375478 Italian_Umbria
    12.66085700 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    12.85975365 Italian_Marche
    12.98476800 Spanish_Baleares
    13.43456363 Italian_Lazio
    14.10114889 Albanian_Kosovo
    14.48291407 Portuguese
    14.54434254 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    14.78194507 Macedonian_South
    14.80031419 Spanish_Valencia
    14.91207900 Macedonian_Vardar
    15.04591971 Spanish_Canarias
    15.05025249 Albanian
    15.16072887 Macedonian_East

    Distance to: SAL003
    8.82537251 French_Corsica
    10.10311061 Italian_Marche
    10.21458761 Italian_Umbria
    10.30606132 Italian_Romagna
    11.11037353 Italian_Tuscany
    11.36665298 Italian_Lazio
    12.23170471 Italian_Emilia
    12.54079344 Italian_Liguria
    12.85479677 Italian_Molise
    13.02486468 Italian_Abruzzo
    13.11500667 Albanian
    13.73923215 Italian_Campania
    13.97218308 Greek_Athens
    14.00067141 Italian_Lombardy
    14.36772425 Greek_Central
    15.08748819 Greek_Thrace
    15.18918694 Greek_Thessaly
    15.25700495 Italian_Apulia
    15.28364158 Albanian_Kosovo
    15.34261712 Italian_Sicily
    15.50002581 Greek_Peloponnese
    15.51963595 Italian_Veneto
    15.60632564 Greek_Thessaloniki
    15.72926890 Greek_Foca
    15.75539590 Italian_Basilicata

    Distance to: ORD006
    6.56547790 Italian_Lombardy
    6.97412450 Swiss_Italian
    7.90031645 Italian_Liguria
    8.14086605 Italian_Piedmont
    8.60689840 Italian_Trentino
    8.87972973 Italian_Veneto
    8.96735747 Italian_Emilia
    9.99375305 Italian_Tuscany
    10.17519533 Spanish_Baleares
    10.21299662 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    10.44496529 Italian_Friuli_VG
    10.95734913 French_Corsica
    11.63861246 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    11.69351102 Portuguese
    11.87551683 Spanish_Valencia
    12.30234124 Spanish_Catalonia
    12.41697226 Italian_Romagna
    12.71958726 Spanish_Canarias
    13.51683025 Spanish_Andalusia
    13.56832709 Spanish_Galicia
    14.02259605 Spanish_Aragon
    14.15262167 Italian_Umbria
    14.19366056 Spanish_Cantabria
    15.29555491 Austrian_Tyrol
    15.50962359 Italian_Marche
    Target: Angela
    Distance: 1.1662% / 1.16616543
    40.8 ORD019
    24.1 SAL011
    20.5 ORD010
    7.0 ORD014
    4.1 SGR001
    3.5 ORD001

    ORD 019 = Tuscan like
    SAL 011=Aragon
    ORD 010=Ashkenazi and S.Italian Sicilian
    ORD 014=North Italian
    SGR 001=Ashkenazi and S.Italian Sicilian
    ORD 001=Romanian and Bulgarian


    SAL 010=French

    So, French and TSI or North Italian and TSI, but the fits aren't good.

    Distance to: Angela
    3.78935295 13.60% SAL010 + 86.40% SGR003
    3.79111422 38.80% ORD009 + 61.20% SGR003
    3.94623961 22.60% ORD014 + 77.40% SGR003
    3.95988751 21.20% ORD004 + 78.80% SGR003
    4.34080895 16.80% SGR002 + 83.20% SGR003
    4.46044561 25.00% ORD019 + 75.00% SGR003
    4.53583932 31.60% ORD011 + 68.40% SGR003
    4.56915347 12.60% SAL001 + 87.40% SGR003
    4.59343993 14.40% ORD001 + 85.60% SGR003
    4.65121666 56.60% ORD009 + 43.40% SAL003
    4.80860370 22.20% ORD006 + 77.80% SGR003
    5.22475381 70.20% SAL003 + 29.80% SGR002
    5.27595320 9.60% SAL007 + 90.40% SGR003
    5.32764864 80.00% SAL003 + 20.00% SAL011
    5.33696068 78.20% SAL003 + 21.80% SAL010
    5.36157495 4.40% SAL011 + 95.60% SGR003
    5.44403861 61.40% ORD019 + 38.60% SAL007
    5.47032354 64.80% ORD009 + 35.20% ORD019
    5.47088573 8.20% SAL003 + 91.80% SGR003
    5.50397173 61.60% SAL007 + 38.40% SGR001
    5.55710268 68.20% SAL003 + 31.80% SAL007
    5.56575644 35.00% ORD014 + 65.00% SAL003
    5.57205207 24.20% SAL001 + 75.80% SAL003
    5.89910368 75.80% ORD019 + 24.20% SAL011
    6.04478481 81.00% ORD011 + 19.00% SGR001

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    As well as J2 being present there as well since the neolithic.
    I wouldn't use J2 as an argument, because just like H and E1b, it seems to have been common in various early farmer groups, which were otherwise not much more Eastern shifted than the LBK farmers, sometimes even more WHG actually. Because of this, we need to reconstruct J2 and its subclades migrations first, before using it for any sort of argument in favour of an earlier Iranian ancestry spread.
    Since you mentioned Minoans: Its so low in those, that even if they would have replaced local, earlier EEF groups completely, it wouldn't suffice. The gap is just too big without the later, Hellenistic and Roman era gene flow. At the same time, however, I think you are right that there was a constant trickling in too. A lot of samples hint at this kind of slow effect, just like the Northern shift in Italy didn't end with the migration period, but continued with slow trickling in from Central Europe directly and indirectly from Northern Italy to Southern Italy.

    By the way, I wondered about the Molise sampels and their special case, but I guess some of it can be explained by the Slavic settlement in the region. Its interesting to compre Molise with Marche. There are just 2 samples form Molise, but these have above average Slavic admixture, while the Marche samples have one with higher Slavic, but the rest being more Celto-Germanic shifted in comparison. Quite interesting, but probably the result of:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

    Does anyone know results of "full blooded" Molise Slavs? If such even exist up to this point.

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    Basing an analysis on the tiny percentage of Molise Slavs doesn't seem very helpful. Also, could you provide historical context for the "slow trickling in" from Central Europe into Italy after the Migration Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    We see a CHG pulse into the Mediterranean which some speculate may have come in the early Bronze age (Raveane et al. 2018). A good paper to get familiar with much of this is Sarno et al. 2021.

    This is supported by the fact that Minoans, Mycenaeans, Daunians, Latins, Etruscans, South Eastern Iberians, BA Sicilians, and Sardinians all must be modeled with extra CHG/Iran_N along with regular Steppe, in their modeling for academic papers.

    It is also possible it has been trickling in slowly since earlier times, as seen in Neolithic Central Italian samples, that can be modeled better with (95%) Central Anatolian farmers, than others like LBK. As well as J2 being present there as well since the neolithic.

    We also see a great push of CHG into Anatolia during the copper age, westward. As well as massive diffusion of this kind of ancestry into the Levant, supplanting haplogroups, and becoming a very strong component there; prior to which was mostly Levant_N and Anatolian_N.
    Very true.
    If we look at Maciamo's Genetic Analysis of ancient Europeans and West Asians we see that while Gauls/Belgae and Hallstatt Celts have only 9pc-10pc of Caucasus, Etruscans and Latins have nearly 20pc of the "Caucasus" component from Dodecad 12b.

    Anglo-Saxons,Suebi/Alemanni and Lombards have only 2pc to 7pc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Basing an analysis on the tiny percentage of Molise Slavs doesn't seem very helpful. Also, could you provide historical context for the "slow trickling in" from Central Europe into Italy after the Migration Period.
    There were e.g. many mercenaries and artisans, but in some regions even settlers and magistrates, which came in from German speaking territories. There are various articles and historical accounts for that.

    Their context might be "special", but its interesting nevertheless that some of the samples from Medieval Rome in the Renaissance period were basically French-German too. The most striking sample being R1219, which carries E-V13 also, which seems to have additional Slavic admixture (plus the Germanic), so being even more clearly Central European/German related, minimum half:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

    Compare also with the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826

    They might be Swiss mercenaries or who knows, but there were many instances of German-French people coming to Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There were e.g. many mercenaries and artisans, but in some regions even settlers and magistrates, which came in from German speaking territories. There are various articles and historical accounts for that.

    Their context might be "special", but its interesting nevertheless that some of the samples from Medieval Rome in the Renaissance period were basically French-German too. The most striking sample being R1219, which carries E-V13 also, which seems to have additional Slavic admixture (plus the Germanic), so being even more clearly Central European/German related, minimum half:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

    Compare also with the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826

    They might be Swiss mercenaries or who knows, but there were many instances of German-French people coming to Italy.
    I'll certainly buy the "WHO KNOWS?"

    I asked for LINKS to papers, not hearsay from who knows where...

    After all this time you really think some mercenaries are going to change the autosomal profile of a people? Really?

    I think you've forgotten or don't understand the significance of the fact that Rome was the center of Christendom. We have documentation in my area for an Archbishop of Canterbury taking the Via Francigena to Rome to make a request of the Pope. All of those Franco-German samples were undoubtedly political envoys, churchmen seeking benefices or pilgrims. You honestly think it makes sense to base a population genetics analysis on the burial from the rampant disease and banditry of samples like those?

    This is not a serious, scientific analysis.

    As for Swiss, Bavarians or French migrating into Italy the only ones of which I'm aware were into neighboring areas, i.e. far northern, northeastern, and northwestern areas, i.e. EXTREMELY localized, and therefore irrelevant for "Italian" ethnogenesis as a whole. We have papers showing how localized and isolated those groups were if you don't recall.

    I am beyond tired of unsubstantiated, a-scientific and a-historical, pseudo-analysis of Italian genetic history.

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