The genetic origin of Daunians

**kingjohn** · 05-12-21, 14:20

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Here they are:

Code:

ORD001,2.13,0,3.17,1.09,29.5,31.57,0,0.75,9.39,1.76,20.64,0
ORD004,0,0,0,0,44.67,29.85,0,0,0.14,0,22.4,2.95
ORD006,0,0,0,2.54,41.99,25.03,0,0,8.55,0,21.11,0.78
ORD009,4.03,0.65,1.42,0.98,38.29,23.77,0,0,7.95,0,22.52,0.39
ORD010,4.29,0,2.9,0,26.43,12.34,0,1.12,17.75,0,35.16,0
ORD011,0,0,0,0,41.49,23.76,0,0,8.92,0.98,24.85,0
ORD014,0,2.06,4.08,0,43.2,28.47,0.29,0,2.97,0,18.93,0
ORD019,1.73,0,0.9,0,38.01,22.88,2.51,0,0,0,33.46,0.52
SAL001,0,0,3.78,3.04,43.72,32.79,0,3.1,2.05,0,11.51,0
SAL003,0,0,1.91,0,39.06,17.5,0,0,7.93,0,33.23,0.38
SAL007,4.63,0,0,0,53.35,16.94,0,0,6.74,0,18.34,0
SAL010,4.31,0,0,0.02,45.37,38.34,0,0,0,0,11.95,0
SAL011,8.8,0,0.77,0.26,61.26,14.72,0,0,5.84,0,8.35,0
SGR001,9.06,4.24,0,2.32,23.85,12.46,0.86,3.12,3.86,0,40.22,0
SGR002,1.02,0.6,2.92,0,45.47,29.36,0,0.66,5.54,0,14.06,0.37
SGR003,2.69,0,1.74,2.68,40.79,15.65,0,1.55,7.31,0,27.6,0

nice jovialis

there had to be some east med geneflow or muslim influence
in those 2 medieval apulians
if iron age apulians cluster with north italians

Distance to:	adam
7.88524572	ORD010
13.57914209	SGR001
18.92121825	SAL003
20.41120036	SGR003
21.80213751	ORD009
22.72310498	ORD019
23.46603503	ORD001
24.30291341	ORD011
26.86017126	ORD006
31.10948730	ORD014
32.69720324	ORD004
34.46707414	SGR002
34.48557670	SAL007
37.84124866	SAL001
41.26958081	SAL010
45.86882165	SAL011

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 14:30

Any word on when the Danubian Limes samples are coming out? I also have my eye on that one.

**ihype02** · 05-12-21, 14:41

ORD009 is the highest quality sample plus it's more Northern (that's why they score Liguria first) than other samples. So Daunians are indeed closer to Central Italians. I am gonna wish for better quality for Messapians. Let's wait how G25 results are.

Distance to:	ORD009
2.01910871	Italian_Liguria
2.79744526	Italian_Lombardy
3.22854456	Italian_Emilia
3.59342455	Italian_Piedmont
4.42649975	Italian_Tuscany
4.63920252	Italian_Veneto
5.98281811	Swiss_Italian
6.84963503	Italian_Friuli_VG
7.04014204	Italian_Romagna
7.08038841	Italian_Trentino
7.46207076	French_Corsica
8.95600916	Italian_Umbria
9.62911730	Italian_Aosta_Valley
10.41710056	Italian_Marche
10.45613695	Spanish_Baleares
10.56515499	Italian_Lazio
11.38797612	Portuguese
11.40762903	Albanian_Kosovo
11.43364771	Spanish_Canarias
11.64887548	Macedonian_Vardar
11.78715827	Macedonian_South
12.34889874	Macedonian_East
12.36776051	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
12.91960913	Spanish_Valencia
12.94037480	Greek_Thessaly

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 14:58

Here is something interesting I observed with these samples:

If we compare what makes me different from the Daunian ORD009, we can see it points to the Caucasus.

Basically, I can be modeled as 2/3rd IA_Daunian + 1/3rd BA_Caucasian.

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑ A: ORD009 B: Jovialis C: ↴
-15.23933546	Balkans_N:I1113:Mathieson_2018
-15.21606936	France_EBA:EUG11:Brunel_2020
-15.20671528	Malak_Preslavets:I1108:Mathieson_2018
-15.08927813	NE_Iberia_Greek_(Empúries1):I8344:Olalde_2019
-15.08910642	WHG-like_Brunn_am_Gebirge:I6913:Nikitin_2019
-15.03695833	C_Iberia_BA:I12855:Olalde_2019
-15.03144599	I7673:Olalde_2019
-14.99370136	France_EBA:PSS4170:Brunel_2020
-14.99293888	Hallstatt_C-Early_La_Tène_IA:NOR4:Brunel_2020
-14.99228732	Germany_MN:I1560_d:Lipson_2017
-14.98727896	I12171:Olalde_2019
-14.98470186	E_Iberia_IA:I12877:Olalde_2019
-14.97922079	C7-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R37:Antonio_2 019
-14.97882381	N_Iberia_IA:I3759:Olalde_2019
-14.93777050	NE_Iberia_c6-8CE_ES:I3775:Olalde_2019
-14.91726302	I6468:Olalde_2018
-14.91717211	C_Iberia_BA:I6470:Olalde_2019
-14.91653353	I3757:Olalde_2019
-14.88978126	Iron_Gates_HG_o:I5232:Mathieson_2018
-14.88667998	Blatterhohle_MN:I1593:Lipson_2017
-14.86355555	utigGCP002A1:Saupe_2021
-14.86141708	Oberbipp_Horgen_(CH):MX299:Furtwängler_2020
-14.85661656	I3758:Olalde_2019
-14.83935171	La_Tène_IA:PECH5:Brunel_2020
-14.83649209	I8339:Olalde_2019

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: ORD009 B: Jovialis C: ↴
15.08434398	Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020
15.07452203	Arslantepe_LC:ART018_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
15.05756329	Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002:Skourtanioti_2020
15.04564170	Caucasus_lowlands_LN:POT002:Skourtanioti_2020
15.02465394	Arslantepe_LC:ART018_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
15.02363386	C4-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1551:Antonio_2019
14.96473381	Arslantepe_LC:ART027_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
14.96467911	Alalakh_MLBA:ALA039:Skourtanioti_2020
14.94355143	Arslantepe_LC:ART017_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
14.94045964	C6-Marcellino_&_Pietro_Imperial_Rome:R136:Antonio_201 9
14.93674483	C5-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1548:Antonio_2019
14.91465053	Arslantepe_LC:ART004:Skourtanioti_2020
14.90852467	Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002_SR:Skourtanioti_2020
14.90561583	Arslantepe_LC:ART017_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
14.87013399	Arslantepe_LC:ART027_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
14.86993140	C5-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1543:Ant onio_2019
14.86829986	Kura-Araxes_EBA:I1635:Lazaridis_2016
14.83747371	Arslantepe_EBA:ART010_PE:Skourtanioti_2020
14.81610655	C6-Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese_Imperial_Rome:R1544:Ant onio_2019
14.81016474	C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R67:Antonio_2019
14.80085039	Kura-Araxes:ARM002:Wang_2019
14.79635809	C4-ANAS_Imperial_Rome:R68:Antonio_2019
14.78728982	C6-Palestrina_Imperial_Rome:R436:Antonio_2019
14.76468951	Kura-Araxes:ARM003:Wang_2019
14.76432845	C4-Isola_Sacra_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R38:Antonio_2 019

Distance to:	Jovialis
15.41134647	ORD009
31.49167668	Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020

Distance to:	Caucasus_lowlands_LN:MTT001:Skourtanioti_2020
7.56879779	Armenian

Target: Jovialis Distance: 2.5944% / 2.59444185
	67.4	ORD009
	32.6	Caucasus_lowlands_LN

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 15:14

Originally Posted by kingjohn

nice jovialis

there had to be some east med geneflow or muslim influence
in those 2 medieval apulians
if iron age apulians cluster with north italians

Distance to:	adam
7.88524572	ORD010
13.57914209	SGR001
18.92121825	SAL003
20.41120036	SGR003
21.80213751	ORD009
22.72310498	ORD019
23.46603503	ORD001
24.30291341	ORD011
26.86017126	ORD006
31.10948730	ORD014
32.69720324	ORD004
34.46707414	SGR002
34.48557670	SAL007
37.84124866	SAL001
41.26958081	SAL010
45.86882165	SAL011

I would bet that ORD010 probably has some Saracen influence, because the difference between me and that sample is straight up Levantine (Natufian-admixed):

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑ A: Jovialis B: ORD010 C: ↴
-10.53624136	NE_Iberia_RomP:I6491:Olalde_2019
-10.27504144	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R970:Antonio_2019
-10.01483253	Altenerding-Klettham_(ADH)_Female_338-475calAD_485-535AD:AED125b:Veeramah_2018
-9.91936428	I5015:Olalde_2018
-9.67374454	I5017:Olalde_2018
-9.66429559	Beaker_Central_Europe:I3599:Olalde_2018
-9.64962796	TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
-9.63630733	Nordic_Type-(ADH)_Female:STR535:Veeramah_2018
-9.55754948	I12164:Olalde_2019
-9.53507947	Beaker_Central_Europe:I3604:Olalde_2018
-9.48121063	Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
-9.46913328	Collegno53:Amorim_2018
-9.45725849	NE_Iberia_c6CE_PL:I12033:Olalde_2019
-9.33903474	Scythian:scy311:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
-9.33318290	I7639:Olalde_2018
-9.32765867	I3596:Olalde_2018
-9.32691776	La_Tène_IA:ERS1164:Brunel_2020
-9.31767161	I5520:Olalde_2018
-9.30865784	I4945:Olalde_2018
-9.27111586	Scythian:scy304:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
-9.25907713	I4249:Olalde_2018
-9.25688430	Beaker_Central_Europe:I7275:Olalde_2018
-9.23792007	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
-9.22638550	Beaker_Central_Europe:E09538:Olalde_2018
-9.22528592	I4946:Olalde_2018

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Jovialis B: ORD010 C: ↴
10.81446901	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1155:Harn ey_2018
10.76226857	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1184:Harn ey_2018
10.71873744	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1168:Harn ey_2018
10.61897638	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1160:Harn ey_2018
10.58272221	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1164:Harn ey_2018
10.56551352	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1180:Harn ey_2018
10.53689977	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1154:Harn ey_2018
10.48148864	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1152:Harn ey_2018
10.47617483	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1171:Harn ey_2018
10.45526043	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1182:Harn ey_2018
10.45360428	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1170:Harn ey_2018
10.42423346	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1179:Harn ey_2018
10.41340206	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1178:Harn ey_2018
10.41286048	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1187:Harn ey_2018
10.40855683	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1169:Harn ey_2018
10.37954854	Levant_N:I1701:Lazaridis_2016
10.37856112	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1172:Harn ey_2018
10.36889147	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1183_d:Ha rney_2018
10.33905922	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1166:Harn ey_2018
10.21250240	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1177:Harn ey_2018
10.20040256	Levant_BA:I1730:Lazaridis_2016
10.11243002	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1165:Harn ey_2018
10.10606830	İkiztepe_LC:IKI038:Skourtanioti_2020
10.06338678	Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134:Schuenemann_2017
10.02975211	LBK_EN:I2005:Lipson_2017

**Palermo Trapani** · 05-12-21, 15:18

Dodecad 12B distances (Top 10) for Danubians using Estrucan and Basilicata samples from Posth et al 2021 paper "The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transect"

Distance to:	SGR003
5.94590615	ETR010
7.06024787	ETR006
8.39179957	POP001
8.51145111	ETR013
9.04584988	TAQ022
9.51753119	TAQ009
10.03700653	TAQ011
10.08439884	TAQ020
10.35107724	VEU001
10.53070273	VET001

Distance to:	SGR002
4.68212559	PRZ002
6.89088528	CAM001
6.90240538	TAQ001
7.11973314	TAQ016
7.37112610	CSN010
7.39902021	CSN008
7.56595004	TAQ019
7.65233951	TAQ004
7.81037771	CAM003
8.03080320	CSN001

Distance to:	SGR001
14.15046289	VEN012
14.77935046	ETR014
14.94171008	TAQ003
14.97329623	VEN006
15.32855831	VEN005
15.49594140	VEN013
16.08058768	VEN015
16.36894621	TAQ021
16.59850596	MAS002
16.82142087	VEN001

Distance to:	SAL011
14.32201452	TAQ012
16.32623043	CSN004
17.06387119	TAQ008
17.38105290	VET007
17.92161823	TAQ017
18.05106091	CSN003
18.65095976	CSN007
18.69448849	VET011
19.16083505	CAM003
19.56583246	VET002

Distance to:	SAL010
6.28593668	VET005
8.33964628	CAM002
10.78882755	CSN010
12.86447045	UDC_P
13.26703433	CSN008
13.73138376	MAS004
13.88514314	PRZ002
14.51640107	CSN012
16.13642463	CSN005
16.57881479	CSN002

Distance to:	SAL007
3.42147629	TAQ012
5.19651807	CSN004
5.98080262	TAQ017
6.70681743	VET007
6.74945183	TAQ008
7.19252390	VET002
7.78009640	CSN007
8.32338873	CSN003
8.35371774	TAQ018
8.74006293	TAQ013

Distance to:	SAL003
6.39077460	ETR010
8.16328978	POP001
8.36761615	ETR013
8.95930801	TAQ009
9.59400855	TAQ022
9.79175674	ETR006
10.60465935	TAQ021
10.91983058	TAQ011
10.95366605	VEN017
11.68952950	TAQ020

Distance to:	SAL001
8.18297012	CSN010
8.57958624	CAM002
9.74403407	PRZ002
10.28883861	UDC_P
11.24469653	VET005
11.52591428	CSN012
11.69528110	CSN008
11.78300471	CSN005
11.97888559	MAS004
12.27830200	TAQ001

Distance to:	ORD019
10.48864148	TAQ022
11.55514171	POP001
11.60765265	CSN009
11.64505474	TAQ006
12.29873977	ETR010
12.69123319	TAQ009
12.76714925	CSN002
13.35416414	TAQ020
13.99194054	ETR013
14.23710645	VEU001

Distance to:	ORD014
5.32971857	PRZ002
5.42706182	MAS004
5.73863224	CSN005
6.33037124	VOL001
6.77239987	TAQ006
6.88430824	CSN008
7.08674820	TAQ019
7.19277415	TAQ001
7.22886575	CSN009
7.28420208	VET001

Distance to:	ORD011
5.39201261	VET001
6.18942647	VOL001
7.16297424	TAQ002
7.51988032	TAQ006
7.94584797	VEU001
8.00527326	CSN001
8.19323501	MAG001
8.30339690	TAQ015
8.49814097	ETR005
8.56479422	CSN009

Distance to:	ORD010
4.59941301	ETR014
6.78947715	MAS002
7.29499143	VEN015
8.56057241	VEN012
8.65677769	VEN016
8.91321491	TAQ021
9.42338050	TAQ003
10.06500869	VEN013
10.17965127	VEN005
10.61008011	VEN001

Distance to:	ORD009
5.24433027	VET001
7.36747582	CSN005
7.46725519	CSN009
7.58424683	VOL001
8.18590252	TAQ006
8.43888618	POP001
8.66895034	TAQ022
8.76640177	CSN006
8.81552040	CSN013
8.85961060	CSN008

Distance to:	ORD006
4.23157181	VET001
5.10840484	VOL001
5.81871120	CSN001
5.99354653	TAQ002
6.73645307	CSN006
6.74083081	ETR005
7.07381085	TAQ015
7.34993197	VEU001
7.43492434	CAM001
7.55246979	TAQ019

Distance to:	ORD004
3.90639220	MAS004
6.47434167	CSN002
7.08855415	CSN009
7.15793266	MAG001
7.71954014	TAQ006
8.15677632	CSN008
8.26452660	TAQ010
8.26899631	VOL001
8.42884334	PRZ002
8.78585795	TAQ002

Distance to:	ORD001
7.15296442	MAS001
9.94691409	ETR007
11.19466391	CSN005
13.56424344	CSN009
14.68057901	CAM002
15.07017253	CSN010
15.19138243	TAQ009
15.30518213	VET001
15.69626707	TAQ011
15.76193199	ETR003

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 15:27

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Here is something interesting I observed with these samples:

If we compare what makes me different from the Daunian ORD009, we can see it points to the Caucasus.

Basically, I can be modeled as 2/3rd IA_Daunian + 1/3rd BA_Caucasian.

Target: Jovialis Distance: 2.5944% / 2.59444185
	67.4	ORD009
	32.6	Caucasus_lowlands_LN

As far as the Daunians being "natives", they have only been in the region as long as the late Bronze age, which is probably after the arrival of the CHG-pulse into the region from the Early Bronze Age:

Towards the late Bronze Age (11th-10th centuries BC), Illyrian populations from the eastern Adriatic arrived in Apulia.^{[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daunians}

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 15:37

^^
hmmm, this makes me ponder this observation a bit more:

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Another interesting thing I noticed,

FWIW, these samples get little to no Gedrosia; instead they 20-30% Caucasus. Typically, populations in places like Northern Europe get Gedrosia, which could probably be attributed to the CHG in Steppe. Caucasus was speculated by some respectable posters here to be attributed to non-steppe related CHG.

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 15:42

I would be hesitant to draw a lot of conclusions from these samples given that a lot of them are of poor quality, which is why so many aren't really close to anyone.

Perhaps the analysis should only center on the ones which are of decent quality.

**Palermo Trapani** · 05-12-21, 15:44

My analysis similar to Jovialis Post #380. My results are consistent with his.

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑ A: PalermoTrapani_Combined B: ORD010 C: ↴
-7.60404166	I3574:Olalde_2019
-7.52651938	Collegno121:Amorim_2018
-7.49438938	I12173:Olalde_2019
-7.48455582	bns023-b1e1l1:Krzewinska_2018_(Sept)
-7.39565774	I2469:Olalde_2019
-7.37212878	TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
-7.23687882	I3587:Olalde_2018
-7.22413589	Beaker_Central_Europe:I5022:Olalde_2018
-7.19709389	I4936:Olalde_2018
-7.18030356	Mallorca_EBA_Cova_des_Moro:I4329:Fernandes_2020
-7.15935268	C6-Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R113:Antoni o_2019
-7.14939480	ETR012:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
-7.14490600	Sardinia_Early_Medieval_Grotta_Colombi:I12221:Fern andes_2020
-7.13403701	SE_Iberia_c10-16CE:I12649:Olalde_2019
-7.11298941	I4556:Olalde_2019
-7.09864361	C6-Civitanova_Marche_Imperial_Rome:R835:Antonio_2019
-7.09719330	France_LBA:NIED:Brunel_2020
-7.08668031	C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R118:An tonio_2019
-7.05726813	E_Iberia_IA:I3327:Olalde_2019
-7.05251212	I12164:Olalde_2019
-7.03541865	SE_Iberia_c10-16CE:I12648:Olalde_2019
-7.03071986	utigGCP003A1:Saupe_2021
-7.02513885	SE_Iberia_c5-8CE:I3981:Olalde_2019
-7.00738450	CSN012:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
-7.00619696	I5520:Olalde_2018

Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: PalermoTrapani_Combined B: ORD010 C: ↴
7.62746112	LBK_EN:I2005:Lipson_2017
7.54455032	Levant_N:I1701:Lazaridis_2016
7.50633295	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1154:Harn ey_2018
7.40042482	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1155:Harn ey_2018
7.29718534	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1180:Harn ey_2018
7.21369026	Levant_BA:I1730:Lazaridis_2016
7.19247760	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1184:Harn ey_2018
7.15732360	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1168:Harn ey_2018
7.11995164	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1164:Harn ey_2018
7.08077779	İkiztepe_LC:IKI038:Skourtanioti_2020
7.03199985	Ashkelon_IA2:ASH087:Feldman_2019_(Jul.)
7.00796010	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1179:Harn ey_2018
6.99978564	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1160:Harn ey_2018
6.97243214	Ebla_EMBA:ETM001:Skourtanioti_2020
6.86436526	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1172:Harn ey_2018
6.85563516	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1170:Harn ey_2018
6.85182247	Ashkelon_LBA:ASH033:Feldman_2019_(Jul.)
6.81281654	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1171:Harn ey_2018
6.76164418	Alalakh_MLBA:ALA008:Skourtanioti_2020
6.74713749	TellKurdu_MC:KRD002:Skourtanioti_2020
6.73423037	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1152:Harn ey_2018
6.73307736	Ebla_EMBA:ETM012:Skourtanioti_2020
6.71805248	Ebla_EMBA:ETM006:Skourtanioti_2020
6.68537518	Ancient_Egyptian:JK2134:Schuenemann_2017
6.67863808	Peqi’in_Cave_Upper_Galilee_ChL_Levant:I1166:Harn ey_2018

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 15:46

Originally Posted by Angela

I would be hesitant to draw a lot of conclusions from these samples given that a lot of them are of poor quality, which is why so many aren't really close to anyone.

Perhaps the analysis should only center on the ones which are of decent quality.

Considering the disappointment with ORD001, I'd say caution is certainly advised.

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 15:47

Originally Posted by torzio

I don't see any Mycenaen ...I see

The excess of WHG ancestry, tentatively suggesting a local origin, is somewhat blurred by
the genetic similarity of the two most probable sources - Illyrians (Croatia EIA) and an
autochthonous one (Roman Republicans),

What local origin? They arrived in the late Bronze Age. You think local WHG were hiding out there???

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 15:59

Originally Posted by Stuvanè

Distance to:	Dodecadk12bStuvanè
5.95642510	ORD009
9.51839272	ORD011
10.24488165	ORD001
11.15438927	ORD006
12.28001221	SGR003
12.67598911	SAL003
13.63475339	ORD019
14.88423999	ORD014
16.70144605	ORD004
18.06751228	SGR002
19.09894500	ORD010
21.58455235	SAL001
22.56468923	SAL007
23.16593836	SGR001
24.63075923	SAL010
34.44569349	SAL011

Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè Distance: 1.0829% / 1.08293744
44.1	ORD010

35.5	SAL010

12.4	ORD001

5.7	SGR001

2.3	ORD019

Distance to:	Dodecadk12bStuvanè
1.86443024	56.40% ORD010 + 43.60% SAL010
3.98207912	56.00% ORD001 + 44.00% SAL003
4.01431492	55.20% ORD001 + 44.80% SGR003
4.01803163	81.00% ORD009 + 19.00% ORD010
4.35577089	84.80% ORD009 + 15.20% SGR001
4.87401567	27.60% ORD001 + 72.40% ORD009
4.98628964	53.20% ORD010 + 46.80% SAL001
5.10902167	43.20% ORD010 + 56.80% ORD014
5.55306597	48.40% ORD010 + 51.60% SGR002
5.67802622	86.20% ORD009 + 13.80% SAL003
5.72055191	88.20% ORD009 + 11.80% ORD019
5.74473328	53.80% ORD004 + 46.20% ORD010
6.09981128	59.80% ORD001 + 40.20% ORD019
6.13613457	47.00% ORD001 + 53.00% ORD011
6.29570425	43.20% SGR001 + 56.80% SGR002
6.40835574	71.00% ORD006 + 29.00% SGR001
6.50903862	69.40% ORD001 + 30.60% ORD010
6.66392019	74.00% ORD001 + 26.00% SGR001
6.66828677	66.60% ORD006 + 33.40% ORD010
6.95664131	77.20% ORD011 + 22.80% SGR001
7.21921738	26.00% ORD010 + 74.00% ORD011
7.27633486	74.80% ORD001 + 25.20% SAL007
7.58598899	63.00% ORD014 + 37.00% SGR001
7.68739715	54.40% ORD001 + 45.60% ORD006
7.92107654	52.00% SAL001 + 48.00% SGR001

Thanks, Stuvane.

This is a prime example of why the two way admixture function is so misleading and unhelpful.

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 16:01

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Considering the disappointment with ORD001, I'd say caution is certainly advised.

Is there a list of the samples by quality? Did I miss it?

Thanks in advance.

**Palermo Trapani** · 05-12-21, 16:05

Jovialis: Following your post in #379, I get a reasonable 2-way fit with 1 of the Iron Age Daunians (from Salapia) and Caucus Lowlands. My results are similar to yours again. So if I understand your post correctly, you are suggesting an CHG or Iran Neolithic type admixture into Southern Italy/Sicily that predates Roman period and even bronze age. I think some of the previous papers have been suggesting this (e.g., Antonio et al 2019). If I am wrong, my apologies. Thanks for the coordinates again.

Target: PalermoTrapani_Combined
Distance: 3.2712% / 3.27117932 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
68.8 SAL003
31.2 Caucasus_lowlands_LC

**ihype02** · 05-12-21, 16:18

Originally Posted by Angela

Is there a list of the samples by quality? Did I miss it?

Thanks in advance.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....524#post819524

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 16:23

Originally Posted by Angela

Is there a list of the samples by quality? Did I miss it?

Thanks in advance.

Indeed, most of them are very low-coverage, even in the single digits; with the exception of ORD009 and ORD010:

Filename	Calculator	Genotype ratio
ORD001.txt	Dodecad K12b	4.22%
ORD004.txt	Dodecad K12b	4.23%
ORD006.txt	Dodecad K12b	12.85%
ORD009.txt	Dodecad K12b	65.02%
ORD010.txt	Dodecad K12b	62.17%
ORD011.txt	Dodecad K12b	9.53%
ORD014.txt	Dodecad K12b	11.36%
ORD019.txt	Dodecad K12b	4.96%
SAL001.txt	Dodecad K12b	5.14%
SAL003.txt	Dodecad K12b	11.56%
SAL007.txt	Dodecad K12b	3.71%
SAL010.txt	Dodecad K12b	3.17%
SAL011.txt	Dodecad K12b	5.00%
SGR001.txt	Dodecad K12b	4.71%
SGR002.txt	Dodecad K12b	10.43%
SGR003.txt	Dodecad K12b	5.99%

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 16:31

Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani

Jovialis: Following your post in #379, I get a reasonable 2-way fit with 1 of the Iron Age Daunians (from Salapia) and Caucus Lowlands. My results are similar to yours again. So if I understand your post correctly, you are suggesting an CHG or Iran Neolithic type admixture into Southern Italy/Sicily that predates Roman period and even bronze age. I think some of the previous papers have been suggesting this (e.g., Antonio et al 2019). If I am wrong, my apologies. Thanks for the coordinates again.

Target: PalermoTrapani_Combined
Distance: 3.2712% / 3.27117932 | R2P | ADC: 0.25x RC
68.8 SAL003
31.2 Caucasus_lowlands_LC

We see a CHG pulse into the Mediterranean which some speculate may have come in the early Bronze age (Raveane et al. 2018). A good paper to get familiar with much of this is Sarno et al. 2021.

This is supported by the fact that Minoans, Mycenaeans, Daunians, Latins, Etruscans, South Eastern Iberians, BA Sicilians, and Sardinians all must be modeled with extra CHG/Iran_N along with regular Steppe, in their modeling for academic papers.

It is also possible it has been trickling in slowly since earlier times, as seen in Neolithic Central Italian samples, that can be modeled better with (95%) Central Anatolian farmers, than others like LBK. As well as J2 being present there as well since the neolithic.

We also see a great push of CHG into Anatolia during the copper age, westward. As well as massive diffusion of this kind of ancestry into the Levant, supplanting haplogroups, and becoming a very strong component there; prior to which was mostly Levant_N and Anatolian_N.

**Jovialis** · 05-12-21, 16:34

^^Looking forward to the Balkan IA samples, because they will likely show more of the same, especially since they need to be modeled with Aegean_IA.

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 16:41

My results again with the admixture and two way results included.

Distance to:	Angela
5.50442549	SGR003
7.36377621	ORD009
8.12565074	ORD011
8.76072486	SAL003
10.57615242	ORD006
10.62336576	ORD019
13.79169315	ORD014
14.71112164	ORD004
15.53606771	SAL007
17.38914029	SGR002
18.57492396	ORD001
21.72402587	ORD010
21.96395911	SAL001
23.93889931	SGR001
25.43408540	SAL010
28.23543873	SAL011

SGR 003

Distance to:	SGR003
4.94254995	French_Corsica
8.92909850	Italian_Tuscany
9.45517319	Italian_Romagna
9.62746072	Italian_Emilia
9.94150391	Italian_Liguria
10.13745353	Italian_Marche
10.27812240	Italian_Umbria
11.39715754	Italian_Lombardy
11.57066117	Italian_Lazio
13.22713877	Italian_Piedmont
13.74658867	Italian_Veneto
14.48500259	Italian_Abruzzo
14.84739034	Italian_Molise
15.23313206	Swiss_Italian
15.48784039	Albanian
15.61807607	Italian_Campania
16.53730933	Italian_Friuli_VG
16.64232556	Italian_Trentino
16.65447988	Albanian_Kosovo
16.72953974	Greek_Central
16.74756400	Italian_Sicily
16.76540784	Greek_Athens
16.82096311	Greek_Thessaly
16.84315588	Greek_Thrace
16.88500222	Italian_Basilicata

ORD009

Distance to:	ORD009
2.01910871	Italian_Liguria
2.79744526	Italian_Lombardy
3.22854456	Italian_Emilia
3.59342455	Italian_Piedmont
4.42649975	Italian_Tuscany
4.63920252	Italian_Veneto
5.98281811	Swiss_Italian
6.84963503	Italian_Friuli_VG
7.04014204	Italian_Romagna
7.08038841	Italian_Trentino
7.46207076	French_Corsica
8.95600916	Italian_Umbria
9.62911730	Italian_Aosta_Valley
10.41710056	Italian_Marche
10.45613695	Spanish_Baleares
10.56515499	Italian_Lazio
11.38797612	Portuguese
11.40762903	Albanian_Kosovo
11.43364771	Spanish_Canarias
11.64887548	Macedonian_Vardar
11.78715827	Macedonian_South
12.34889874	Macedonian_East
12.36776051	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
12.91960913	Spanish_Valencia
12.94037480	Greek_Thessaly

Distance to:	ORD011
6.42186110	Italian_Lombardy
6.88650855	Italian_Liguria
7.63293522	Italian_Emilia
8.10289454	Italian_Tuscany
8.50312663	Swiss_Italian
8.54601077	French_Corsica
8.63030127	Italian_Piedmont
8.88684421	Italian_Veneto
10.06520740	Italian_Romagna
10.09342856	Italian_Trentino
10.92957913	Italian_Friuli_VG
11.61375478	Italian_Umbria
12.66085700	Italian_Aosta_Valley
12.85975365	Italian_Marche
12.98476800	Spanish_Baleares
13.43456363	Italian_Lazio
14.10114889	Albanian_Kosovo
14.48291407	Portuguese
14.54434254	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
14.78194507	Macedonian_South
14.80031419	Spanish_Valencia
14.91207900	Macedonian_Vardar
15.04591971	Spanish_Canarias
15.05025249	Albanian
15.16072887	Macedonian_East

Distance to:	SAL003
8.82537251	French_Corsica
10.10311061	Italian_Marche
10.21458761	Italian_Umbria
10.30606132	Italian_Romagna
11.11037353	Italian_Tuscany
11.36665298	Italian_Lazio
12.23170471	Italian_Emilia
12.54079344	Italian_Liguria
12.85479677	Italian_Molise
13.02486468	Italian_Abruzzo
13.11500667	Albanian
13.73923215	Italian_Campania
13.97218308	Greek_Athens
14.00067141	Italian_Lombardy
14.36772425	Greek_Central
15.08748819	Greek_Thrace
15.18918694	Greek_Thessaly
15.25700495	Italian_Apulia
15.28364158	Albanian_Kosovo
15.34261712	Italian_Sicily
15.50002581	Greek_Peloponnese
15.51963595	Italian_Veneto
15.60632564	Greek_Thessaloniki
15.72926890	Greek_Foca
15.75539590	Italian_Basilicata

Distance to:	ORD006
6.56547790	Italian_Lombardy
6.97412450	Swiss_Italian
7.90031645	Italian_Liguria
8.14086605	Italian_Piedmont
8.60689840	Italian_Trentino
8.87972973	Italian_Veneto
8.96735747	Italian_Emilia
9.99375305	Italian_Tuscany
10.17519533	Spanish_Baleares
10.21299662	Italian_Aosta_Valley
10.44496529	Italian_Friuli_VG
10.95734913	French_Corsica
11.63861246	Spanish_Castilla-Leon
11.69351102	Portuguese
11.87551683	Spanish_Valencia
12.30234124	Spanish_Catalonia
12.41697226	Italian_Romagna
12.71958726	Spanish_Canarias
13.51683025	Spanish_Andalusia
13.56832709	Spanish_Galicia
14.02259605	Spanish_Aragon
14.15262167	Italian_Umbria
14.19366056	Spanish_Cantabria
15.29555491	Austrian_Tyrol
15.50962359	Italian_Marche

Target: Angela Distance: 1.1662% / 1.16616543
40.8	ORD019

24.1	SAL011

20.5	ORD010

7.0	ORD014

4.1	SGR001

3.5	ORD001

ORD 019 = Tuscan like
SAL 011=Aragon
ORD 010=Ashkenazi and S.Italian Sicilian
ORD 014=North Italian
SGR 001=Ashkenazi and S.Italian Sicilian
ORD 001=Romanian and Bulgarian

SAL 010=French

So, French and TSI or North Italian and TSI, but the fits aren't good.

Distance to:	Angela
3.78935295	13.60% SAL010 + 86.40% SGR003
3.79111422	38.80% ORD009 + 61.20% SGR003
3.94623961	22.60% ORD014 + 77.40% SGR003
3.95988751	21.20% ORD004 + 78.80% SGR003
4.34080895	16.80% SGR002 + 83.20% SGR003
4.46044561	25.00% ORD019 + 75.00% SGR003
4.53583932	31.60% ORD011 + 68.40% SGR003
4.56915347	12.60% SAL001 + 87.40% SGR003
4.59343993	14.40% ORD001 + 85.60% SGR003
4.65121666	56.60% ORD009 + 43.40% SAL003
4.80860370	22.20% ORD006 + 77.80% SGR003
5.22475381	70.20% SAL003 + 29.80% SGR002
5.27595320	9.60% SAL007 + 90.40% SGR003
5.32764864	80.00% SAL003 + 20.00% SAL011
5.33696068	78.20% SAL003 + 21.80% SAL010
5.36157495	4.40% SAL011 + 95.60% SGR003
5.44403861	61.40% ORD019 + 38.60% SAL007
5.47032354	64.80% ORD009 + 35.20% ORD019
5.47088573	8.20% SAL003 + 91.80% SGR003
5.50397173	61.60% SAL007 + 38.40% SGR001
5.55710268	68.20% SAL003 + 31.80% SAL007
5.56575644	35.00% ORD014 + 65.00% SAL003
5.57205207	24.20% SAL001 + 75.80% SAL003
5.89910368	75.80% ORD019 + 24.20% SAL011
6.04478481	81.00% ORD011 + 19.00% SGR001

**Riverman** · 05-12-21, 16:41

Originally Posted by Jovialis

As well as J2 being present there as well since the neolithic.

I wouldn't use J2 as an argument, because just like H and E1b, it seems to have been common in various early farmer groups, which were otherwise not much more Eastern shifted than the LBK farmers, sometimes even more WHG actually. Because of this, we need to reconstruct J2 and its subclades migrations first, before using it for any sort of argument in favour of an earlier Iranian ancestry spread.
Since you mentioned Minoans: Its so low in those, that even if they would have replaced local, earlier EEF groups completely, it wouldn't suffice. The gap is just too big without the later, Hellenistic and Roman era gene flow. At the same time, however, I think you are right that there was a constant trickling in too. A lot of samples hint at this kind of slow effect, just like the Northern shift in Italy didn't end with the migration period, but continued with slow trickling in from Central Europe directly and indirectly from Northern Italy to Southern Italy.

By the way, I wondered about the Molise sampels and their special case, but I guess some of it can be explained by the Slavic settlement in the region. Its interesting to compre Molise with Marche. There are just 2 samples form Molise, but these have above average Slavic admixture, while the Marche samples have one with higher Slavic, but the rest being more Celto-Germanic shifted in comparison. Quite interesting, but probably the result of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats

Does anyone know results of "full blooded" Molise Slavs? If such even exist up to this point.

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 16:58

Basing an analysis on the tiny percentage of Molise Slavs doesn't seem very helpful. Also, could you provide historical context for the "slow trickling in" from Central Europe into Italy after the Migration Period.

**Vallicanus** · 05-12-21, 17:03

Originally Posted by Jovialis

We see a CHG pulse into the Mediterranean which some speculate may have come in the early Bronze age (Raveane et al. 2018). A good paper to get familiar with much of this is Sarno et al. 2021.

This is supported by the fact that Minoans, Mycenaeans, Daunians, Latins, Etruscans, South Eastern Iberians, BA Sicilians, and Sardinians all must be modeled with extra CHG/Iran_N along with regular Steppe, in their modeling for academic papers.

It is also possible it has been trickling in slowly since earlier times, as seen in Neolithic Central Italian samples, that can be modeled better with (95%) Central Anatolian farmers, than others like LBK. As well as J2 being present there as well since the neolithic.

We also see a great push of CHG into Anatolia during the copper age, westward. As well as massive diffusion of this kind of ancestry into the Levant, supplanting haplogroups, and becoming a very strong component there; prior to which was mostly Levant_N and Anatolian_N.

Very true.
If we look at Maciamo's Genetic Analysis of ancient Europeans and West Asians we see that while Gauls/Belgae and Hallstatt Celts have only 9pc-10pc of Caucasus, Etruscans and Latins have nearly 20pc of the "Caucasus" component from Dodecad 12b.

Anglo-Saxons,Suebi/Alemanni and Lombards have only 2pc to 7pc.

**Riverman** · 05-12-21, 17:14

Originally Posted by Angela

Basing an analysis on the tiny percentage of Molise Slavs doesn't seem very helpful. Also, could you provide historical context for the "slow trickling in" from Central Europe into Italy after the Migration Period.

There were e.g. many mercenaries and artisans, but in some regions even settlers and magistrates, which came in from German speaking territories. There are various articles and historical accounts for that.

Their context might be "special", but its interesting nevertheless that some of the samples from Medieval Rome in the Renaissance period were basically French-German too. The most striking sample being R1219, which carries E-V13 also, which seems to have additional Slavic admixture (plus the Germanic), so being even more clearly Central European/German related, minimum half:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

Compare also with the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826

They might be Swiss mercenaries or who knows, but there were many instances of German-French people coming to Italy.

**Angela** · 05-12-21, 17:41

Originally Posted by Riverman

There were e.g. many mercenaries and artisans, but in some regions even settlers and magistrates, which came in from German speaking territories. There are various articles and historical accounts for that.

Their context might be "special", but its interesting nevertheless that some of the samples from Medieval Rome in the Renaissance period were basically French-German too. The most striking sample being R1219, which carries E-V13 also, which seems to have additional Slavic admixture (plus the Germanic), so being even more clearly Central European/German related, minimum half:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

Compare also with the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826

They might be Swiss mercenaries or who knows, but there were many instances of German-French people coming to Italy.

I'll certainly buy the "WHO KNOWS?"

I asked for LINKS to papers, not hearsay from who knows where...

After all this time you really think some mercenaries are going to change the autosomal profile of a people? Really?

I think you've forgotten or don't understand the significance of the fact that Rome was the center of Christendom. We have documentation in my area for an Archbishop of Canterbury taking the Via Francigena to Rome to make a request of the Pope. All of those Franco-German samples were undoubtedly political envoys, churchmen seeking benefices or pilgrims. You honestly think it makes sense to base a population genetics analysis on the burial from the rampant disease and banditry of samples like those?

This is not a serious, scientific analysis.

As for Swiss, Bavarians or French migrating into Italy the only ones of which I'm aware were into neighboring areas, i.e. far northern, northeastern, and northwestern areas, i.e. EXTREMELY localized, and therefore irrelevant for "Italian" ethnogenesis as a whole. We have papers showing how localized and isolated those groups were if you don't recall.

I am beyond tired of unsubstantiated, a-scientific and a-historical, pseudo-analysis of Italian genetic history.

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