The genetic origin of Daunians

where did you get Moorish from ??

Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

Since when do people only have male ancestors? This is a very unlikely looking Lombard autosomally, whatever his yDna.

As for the "Moors" of Sicily, the more proper term would be the "Muslims" of Sicily, which is the title of the masterful work by Leonard Chiaroni. As he points out in great detail, while many of the "invaders" were indeed from North Africa, there were also Arabs and other people from all over the Muslim world.
 
If we're speaking of mtDna there is mtDna L in the Neolithic in the Near East. From there it of course could have passed into Europe.

In addition, there is also mtDna L in Iberia long before the arrival of the Muslims, presumably crossing over the Straits of Gibraltar.

Of course, each mtDna sublineage will have its own history and time period of arrival, and the complete story has yet to be written.

I just don't know why the assumption would be that every mtDna "L" we find in Europe had to arrive with a Sub-Saharan African. Indeed, the ultimate source could also have been East Africa, but either way, in these very early periods, by the time it arrived in Europe I would think the odds would be pretty good that it was carried by a perhaps highly admixed person.
 
The Encyclopédie under “Peuceti”, distinguishes them from another ancient people, the Peucetioe who were living in Liburnia at the head of the Adriatic, with a reference to Callimachus, as quoted in Pliny (H.N. III.21) placing their country in Pliny’s day as part of Illyria.[3]”
 
Rectification of the ancient geographic coordinates in
Ptolemy’s Geographike Hyphegesis


file:///C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/hgss-3-99-2012.pdf


Abstract.AmultitudeoftheancientplacesgivenbyPtolemyinhisGeography(150 AD)aresofarun-
known.One of the main problems of their identification are the errors of the given ancient coordinates.The
different kinds of errors are illustrated by examples.A new geodetic-statistical analysis method is described,
bywhichgroupsofplaceswithhomogeneoussystematicerrorsandplaceswithgrosserrorscanbedeter-
mined.Based on a transformation function describing the systematic errors, presumable modern coordinates
of unknown places can be computed.That, in conjunction with further information, can make possible their
identification.Atestoftheanalysismethodiscarriedoutonacomplexsimulatedexampleandshowsits
practicability. The analysis method has been applied within an interdisciplinary research project on Ptolemy’s
Geography.


https://www.researchgate.net/public...ordinates_in_Ptolemy's_Geographike_Hyphegesis

 
Last edited:
@Torzio
… I can’t access your PC … yet :grin:

… from your Video: … Terramare refugees bypassed the Etruscans, (guess they weren’t welcome), they kept heading Southeast, except for one group that went to Campania.

lNHeBZA.jpg
 
tsWmVFy.jpg


I'm much more sophisticated than Anonymous.

Maybe he's searching for some Daunian’s .bam :)

Let's hope they are BAM, and not FASTQ. Otherwise, we will become aDNA before they are done processing. :)
 
Rectification of the ancient geographic coordinates in
Ptolemy’s Geographike Hyphegesis


file:///C:/Users/User/AppData/Local/Temp/hgss-3-99-2012.pdf


Abstract.AmultitudeoftheancientplacesgivenbyPtolemyinhisGeography(150 AD)aresofarun-
known.One of the main problems of their identification are the errors of the given ancient coordinates.The
different kinds of errors are illustrated by examples.A new geodetic-statistical analysis method is described,
bywhichgroupsofplaceswithhomogeneoussystematicerrorsandplaceswithgrosserrorscanbedeter-
mined.Based on a transformation function describing the systematic errors, presumable modern coordinates
of unknown places can be computed.That, in conjunction with further information, can make possible their
identification.Atestoftheanalysismethodiscarriedoutonacomplexsimulatedexampleandshowsits
practicability. The analysis method has been applied within an interdisciplinary research project on Ptolemy’s
Geography.


https://www.researchgate.net/public...ordinates_in_Ptolemy's_Geographike_Hyphegesis



I added the workable link
 
https://www.academia.edu/35896111/Illyria_and_Its_Place_in_the_Ancient_Mediterranean_World


Iapodes

The Iapodic territory extended along the Adriatic coastline and covered almost all of modern-day Croatia. Their coastal boundary meant that they had access to trade with the Italic peoples and even Greek merchants. Like the Veneti-Illyrians, the Iapodes emulated Greek and Etruscan artistic conventions, so much so that their works are nearly identical.






9This is certainly one of those Illyrian peoples most scarcely referred to. Straboidentifies them as Pannonian (Illyrian) people, along with Breuci, Deuri, Deretini,Dindari, Ditiones, Ditiones, Maezei and Daesitiates.
12
They started receiving Romancitizenship in the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117), along with other Illyrian communities of southeast Pannonia.
13
Pliny mentions several Pannonian civitates, including that of Andizetes, saying that their name was known before the Roman conquest, along withBoii, Breuci, Amantini, Scordisci and Latobici.
14
Although
they didn‟t
seem to have particularly significant role for the history of Illyrians, the Andizetes might be interesting in linguistic sense, for a mere fact that the
possible root word „
And
‟(izetes)
is among the most frequently occurring linguisticelement throughout the entire territory inhabited by Illyrians, particularly in southeastPannonia. Thus we find personal Illyrian names like Andes (m.)/Andia (f)
in Katiĉić‟s
middle Dalmatian-Pannonian onomastic province (corresponding with modern Bosniaand Herzegovina), but also among the south-Illyrian names, with other variants likeAndena included. This name appears too on the list of Illyrian names in Dardanianterritory, in the form of Andio and Andinus, the latter being found among Dalmatians, inaddition to Andius, found in central Dalmatian group.
15

 
This is certainly one of those Illyrian peoples most scarcely referred to. Straboidentifies them as Pannonian (Illyrian) people, along with Breuci, Deuri, Deretini, Dindari, Ditiones, Ditiones, Maezei and Daesitiates.

They started receiving Roman citizenship in the reign of Trajan (AD 98-117), along with other Illyrian communities of southeast Pannonia.

Pliny mentions several Pannonian civitates, including that of Andizetes, saying that their name was known before the Roman conquest, along with Boii, Breuci, Amantini, Scordisci and Latobici.

Although they didn‟t seem to have particularly significant role for the history of Illyrians, the Andizetes might be interesting in linguistic sense, for a mere fact that the possible root word „And‟(izetes)
is among the most frequently occurring linguistic element throughout the entire territory inhabited by Illyrians, particularly in southeast Pannonia. Thus we find personal Illyrian names like Andes (m.)/Andia (f)in Katiĉić‟s middle Dalmatian-Pannonian onomastic province (corresponding with modern Bosniaand Herzegovina), but also among the south-Illyrian names, with other variants like Andena included. This name appears too on the list of Illyrian names in Dardanian territory, in the form of Andio and Andinus, the latter being found among Dalmatians, in addition to Andius, found in central Dalmatian group.
 
thanks for sharing(y)

y dna
( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png


if we add the ancient croatian paper samples from august........

we report new whole-genome data for 28 individuals dated to between ~ 4700 BCE–400 CE from two sites in present-day eastern Croatia.
In the Middle Neolithic we evidence first cousin mating practices and strong genetic continuity
from the Early Neolithic. In the Middle Bronze Age community that we studied, we find multiple
closely related males suggesting a patrilocal social organisation. We also find in that community an
unexpected genetic ancestry profile distinct from individuals found at contemporaneous sites in the
region, due to the addition of hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. These findings support archaeological
evidence for contacts with communities further north in the Carpathian Basin. Finally, an individual
dated to Roman times exhibits an ancestry profile that is broadly present in the region today, adding
an important data point to the substantial shift in ancestry that occurred in the region between the
Bronze Age and today.


8 x G2a ydna
2 x I2a ydna
1 x R1b
1 X J
1 x C


so ancient Illyrians have G2a, I2a, J2b and R1b as majority ..................clearly G2a is in majority
 
Here I circled the location of R437 and R850, the two Latin "outliers".

R437 plots right next to the IA Apulian ORDO01

bgGHqFW.png

ORD001 was found to be the daughter of ORD009, with a much more Rome_Republican makeup, with an (unsampled) father who was certainly much more Caucasian and Middle Eastern-shifted, given the admixture makeup of the daughter ORD001. So ORD001 represents a very recent inter-ethnic mixing, not an average individual.
 
There is the well-known story of the Etruscan Lucius Tarquinius Priscus who became King of Rome, the story was told by Emperor Claudius, considered an expert on Etruscan civilization and who had written in Greek the Tyrrhenica, a twenty-book Etruscan history, and a text on the Etruscan language. Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, born to a Greek father from Corinth and to an Etruscan mother from Tarquinia, was forced to migrate from Tarquinia to Rome because in Tarquinia the foreign origin of his father did not grant him access to public office. This story tells us that the Etruscans did not look kindly on those with foreign origins, but we don't know much more than that. We don't know if it was really so, and if it was so always during 1000 years. Because we must never forget that the Etruscan civilization lasted 10 centuries, 1000 years or so, the Etruscans were quite numerous and were spread over a very wide territory, which went from northern Italy to extensions in Campania, in Magna Graecia. If the Etruscans had a not very open attitude towards foreigners, most likely what happened in Rome, which was from the beginning the fusion of several different pre-Roman ethnic groups, will end up influencing gradually the attitude of the Etruscans as well.

Tarquinius Priscus married an aristocratic Etruscan lady called Tanaquil so even Etruscan nobles did marry people of foreign extraction.

Maybe public office was confined to a fixed and limited number of important families in Etruscan city states like Tarquinia.
Rome on the other hand had a much more open society reflected in the legend that Romulus instituted an Asylum for foreigners, slave and free, to increase the population of early Rome.
 
ORD001 was found to be the daughter of ORD009, with a much more Rome_Republican makeup, with an (unsampled) father who was certainly much more Caucasian and Middle Eastern-shifted, given the admixture makeup of the daughter ORD001. So ORD001 represents a very recent inter-ethnic mixing, not an average individual.

Being that R850 is in the range of the father, who would be about equidistant from the Mother ORD009; I think it is likely that the more recent ancestry would be similar. R850 was a C5 person in Antonio et al. 2019 (Eastern Mediterranean, similar to modern Maltese-Cypriots). I think if this kind of ancestry was found in Central Italy, among a member of a Latin tribe, it is not unlikely to found in Puglia in the south. In Antonio et al. 2019, R850 formed a clade with Anatolian_IA. I would bet the father of ORD001 would also be a part of that clade.
 
Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.

J32aoHC.png


9PrZLOH.jpg

Daunians seem like Sardinian shifted Tuscans just like Etruscans are like Sardinian-shifted Northern Italians.
To me it seems that Native Campanians fall into the Native-Apulian cluster, otherwise what is filling the empty space between the Aegean Cluster in the PCA below? Otherwise in that case Daunians would be closer to ancient Greeks than they actually are. Maybe I am wrong. Those "Etruscans" in this PCA, might not be the same as the ones we have seen, as they are even more eastern shifted than the Italics.
zvfz03q.jpg
 
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean
0.05085882Sicilian_East
0.05509976Greek_Crete
0.05545855ITA_Sicily_LBA

Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04994000Sicilian_East
0.05175499ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05421812Greek_Crete


Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
They were as close as modern Cretans are. Now I wish we had Daunian samples.
 
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean
0.05085882Sicilian_East
0.05509976Greek_Crete
0.05545855ITA_Sicily_LBA
Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04994000Sicilian_East
0.05175499ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05421812Greek_Crete
Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
They were as close as modern Cretans are. Now I wish we had Daunian samples.
Me too, it is hard to guage when, some papers have released samples before even publishing, some a few days after the study is published from peer-review.
 
IHYPE 02: "Native Sicilians were not so different from old Greeks, it's just that they were shifted in a Western direction.
They were as close as modern Cretans are."

Thank-you. I've only been saying that for ten years. :) It took a long time to get actual proof.

Now what I want to see is Bronze Age samples from the Salento, Basilicata, Calabria.
 

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