The genetic origin of Daunians

[torzio]

I suggest you also stop mixing AD samples with BC samples and expect some kind of affinity

[Jovialis]

I suggest you also stop mixing AD samples with BC samples and expect some kind of affinity

First of all, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Also, that is exactly what some people do, when they combine IA samples with Imperial era samples. Why not say that to them?

[Salento]

I suggest you also stop mixing AD samples with BC samples and expect some kind of affinity

… how about a Mother and Daughter for affinity, … 1.9 generation, but you would never guess they’re related by looking at the PCA:

[Jovialis]

the paper states
For instance, we know that they were
mainly farmers, animal breeders, horsemen and maritime traders with an established trade network
extending across the sea with Illyrian tribes8–10. A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences.
The Daunians maintained strong commercial and political relations with the Illyrian
people, controlling together the area spanning from the Dalmatia to the Gargano peninsula and
had many cultural affinities with them.
they did not mix with their neighbours in Italy ...................I cannot see why people want to or expect them to have mixed with their neighbours the Samnites
We also know they kept trading for the pottery of Dalmatia until 440BC , before deciding to create their own to trade

OKAY, we get it, you don't think they mixed with anyone around them, and I guess just all faded into obscurity. But why then does the same exact paper show mixed individuals among them? ORD001 is stated to be mixed with a person with Eastern influence for ****s sake!

[Jovialis]

First of all, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Also, that is exactly what some people do, when they combine IA samples with Imperial era samples. Why not say that to them?

Furthermore, the Minoan + Catacomb combination which is my main speculation, both existed in the Bronze Age, and went into the same places.

[Jovialis]

… how about a Mother and Daughter for affinity, … 1.9 generation, but you would never guess they’re related by looking at the PCA:

There's a big issue with the ORD001 sample, because of the low-coverage. It isn't reflecting what the study presents.

[Jovialis]

I suggest you also stop mixing AD samples with BC samples and expect some kind of affinity

Also, it seems that you care more about these people than anyone else here. Despite the fact that these people lived in Puglia, the average Pugliese probably hasn't even heard of them, and I sure wouldn't care much about them that much either. We aren't like idiotic naturalists who think they're reincarnations of hunter-gatherers, or something equally as stupid. For as long as I can remember, people from Puglia think of themselves as having more affinity to Greeks, in addition to the Roman world. Which is exactly what we are.

[torzio]

Also, it seems that you care more about these people than anyone else here. Despite the fact that these people lived in Puglia, the average Pugliese probably hasn't even heard of them, and I sure wouldn't care much about them that much either. We aren't like idiotic naturalists who think they're reincarnations of hunter-gatherers, or something equally as stupid. For as long as I can remember, people from Puglia think of themselves as having more affinity to Greeks, in addition to the Roman world. Which is exactly what we are.

wow......so you have different "care" rates for different people, so your PCA are erred coz there is a "care" factor on how you want it to look?.............so sicilians are more a "care" for you than piedmontese ? ..................what about bretons, any "care" there?

if you are going to look at and study ancient samples.....forget about national borders.

your comments makes me now think that you "doctor" results based on who you care the most about and so reflect your ancestry ............hope this is not the case, but your comments make it lean that way.

[torzio]

OKAY, we get it, you don't think they mixed with anyone around them, and I guess just all faded into obscurity. But why then does the same exact paper show mixed individuals among them? ORD001 is stated to be mixed with a person with Eastern influence for ****s sake!

It seems to me you are getting ansy because your PCA is being questioned by others ..........................yes I questioned it 6 months earlier

[torzio]

My interest is based on ...........Salento and I share the same Ydna and both have links with this area based on other programs ....................we have been discussuing this area via Snptracker or MTA etc for over 1 year .................way way before the paper came out

[Jovialis]

I'm starting to lose my patience with your inability to understand what I am trying to convey to you...

[Jovialis]

wow......so you have different "care" rates for different people, so your PCA are erred coz there is a "care" factor on how you want it to look?.............so sicilians are more a "care" for you than piedmontese ? ..................what about bretons, any "care" there?
if you are going to look at and study ancient samples.....forget about national borders.
your comments makes me now think that you "doctor" results based on who you care the most about and so reflect your ancestry ............hope this is not the case, but your comments make it lean that way.

My results are easily replicated, if you use WGSExtract to extract the BAMs, and you run it through Admixture studio. It is not my fault you don't understand how to do that. If you accuse me of doctoring results one more time, I am going to send you out of here.

I take the time out of my day to process these samples, and I post them on here for free to ungrateful people like you. I should just keep them to myself.

[Jovialis]

it seems to me you are getting ansy because your pca is being questioned by others ..........................yes i questioned it 6 months earlier

The pca from the study! Not mine, is proving what you are saying is incorrect!

I Didn't create Dodecad or Eurogenes, and I am just posting the results of ORD001 that they produce.

[Pax Augusta]

Also, it seems that you care more about these people than anyone else here. Despite the fact that these people lived in Puglia, the average Pugliese probably hasn't even heard of them, and I sure wouldn't care much about them that much either. We aren't like idiotic naturalists who think they're reincarnations of hunter-gatherers, or something equally as stupid. For as long as I can remember, people from Puglia think of themselves as having more affinity to Greeks, in addition to the Roman world. Which is exactly what we are.

Knowing many Apulians in real life, it's exactly as you say.

[Angela]

It requires a certain level of intelligence, and the ability to think logically and without bias to understand population genetics, and unfortunately, some people just can't do it.

In those cases, if they aren't banned because it's at least traffic, the best option for other members is just to put them on ignore.

It saves aggravation, and has the added benefit that perhaps being deprived of attention might cause them to just go away.

[Salento]

^^hmm, Maybe someone can double-check my work here, but ORD001 doesn't seem anywhere near Mycenaeans. Maybe due to the low-coverage?

Using 1 populations approximation
1 100% Romanians @ 11.535
2 100% Bulgarian_D @ 12.448
3 100% Bulgarians_Y @ 12.601
4 100% O_Italian_D @ 14.207
5 100% N_Italian_D @ 15.513
6 100% TSI30 @ 17.934
7 100% North_Italian @ 18.341
8 100% Tuscan @ 18.947
9 100% Hungarians @ 19.195
10 100% C_Italian_D @ 19.545

I get the same results.




... as you know WGSE3 produces slightly different RawData, and Admixture Studio and GedMatch often produce slightly different coordinates.

... from the Dodecad Ancestry Project:

... below are the WGSE2 and WGS3 coordinates produced with the Original Dodecad K... calculator

Dodecad Ancestry Project: 'K12b' and 'K7b' calculators

Orig_Dodecad_K12_WGSE2_ORD001,0.65,2.21,2.84,0.00,27.53,34.98,0.00,1.37,9.83,0.43,20.16,0.00
Orig_Dodecad_K12_WGSE3_ORD001,2.73,2.34,1.89,0.01,30.09,33.94,0.00,2.16,7.76,0.55,18.54,0.00

… as long as we use the same standard (WGSE2 sometimes ….3 and Admixture-Studio) we’re OK :)

[Salento]

[Hawk]

Do we have any Y-DNA breakdown of modern Apuglians?

[kingjohn]

nice salento
ORD010 he looks western jewish or greek islander profile
maybe he had recent byzantine ancestery
or muslim ancestery

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	East_Med	36.04
2	West_Med	20.38
3	North_Atlantic	15.09
4	West_Asian	12.20
5	Red_Sea	9.29
6	Baltic	5.83

Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.557816
2 Italian_Jewish @ 5.256803
3 Algerian_Jewish @ 5.670169
4 Ashkenazi @ 6.580314
5 South_Italian @ 7.225772
6 East_Sicilian @ 8.048594
7 Tunisian_Jewish @ 8.227295
8 Libyan_Jewish @ 9.225803
9 Central_Greek @ 10.025041
10 West_Sicilian @ 11.006186
11 Italian_Abruzzo @ 12.665685
12 Cyprian @ 13.848021
13 Greek_Thessaly @ 16.500519
14 Lebanese_Muslim @ 17.823469
15 Tuscan @ 18.530861
16 Syrian @ 18.570854
17 Samaritan @ 19.522041
18 Palestinian @ 20.010542
19 Jordanian @ 20.402901
20 Tunisian @ 20.948820

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Samaritan +50% Tuscan @ 2.571835Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Samaritan +25% Tuscan +25% Tuscan @ 2.571835


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + Samaritan + Sephardic_Jewish + Tuscan @ 2.227096

[ihype02]

ORD009 in G25. Daunians are like Western Shifted Tuscans, so Corsica should be the the first modern group they show greatest affinity to.

Distance to:	Italy_IA_Messapic_Daunian_Ordona:ORD009
0.03375273	French_Corsica
0.03402973	Italian_Veneto
0.03500182	Italian_Piedmont
0.03527467	Italian_Tuscany
0.03556619	Swiss_Italian
0.03639077	Italian_Bergamo
0.03884339	Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04026252	Italian_Umbria
0.04182701	Spanish_Baleares
0.04239967	Italian_Northeast
0.04291958	Spanish_Mallorca
0.04303520	Italian_Lombardy
0.04311957	Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04322355	Spanish_Menorca
0.04353634	Italian_Marche
0.04476102	Spanish_Eivissa
0.04508314	Albanian
0.04542251	Greek_Thessaly
0.04542500	Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04567742	French_Provence
0.04579698	Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04627010	Italian_Lazio
0.04644970	Spanish_Girona
0.04647612	Italian_Liguria
0.04702300	Spanish_Murcia

Distance to:	Italy_IA_Messapic_Daunian_Ordona:ORD009
0.02874863	HRV_MBA
0.03606988	HRV_Pop_CA
0.03979688	ITA_Rome_MA
0.04035270	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2
0.04069774	ITA_Broion_BA
0.04160810	ITA_Etruscan
0.04203421	Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.04261694	DEU_Roman
0.04282862	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04285214	ITA_Villanovan
0.04285506	Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.04459502	CHE_IA
0.04563672	BGR_EBA
0.04626143	HRV_EBA
0.04762398	HUN_BA
0.04798769	UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.04826724	ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.04907844	ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.04960111	ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA
0.04964653	ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.05036041	HUN_MBA_Vatya
0.05122268	HRV_IA
0.05124357	ITA_Etruria_Imperial
0.05186858	VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.05274986	GRC_Helladic_MBA
0.05344087	ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.05383536	DEU_Lech_MBA
0.05404840	Scythian_MDA
0.05410692	BGR_IA
0.05488058	ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05633730	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1
0.05773184	ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.05902228	ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.05908047	DEU_Lech_EBA_contam
0.05943041	SRB_Mokrin_EBA
0.05944251	Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.06017542	TUR_IA_low_res
0.06051290	ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA
0.06057405	TZA_Zanzibar_Euro_outlier
0.06072095	Bell_Beaker_HUN

This one was a bit northern let's wait and see for Messapian genomes to be revealed. I think Iron Age Campania will look like this though.

Distance to:	Italian_Apulia
0.04766329	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04995370	GRC_Mycenaean
0.05850706	Italy_IA_Messapic_Daunian_Ordona:ORD009

[Riverman]

On a general PCA, Ord009 is also closer to the J2b cluster from the British paper, and one of the more Northern-Western shifted samples. The others tend to have more Neolithic ancestry, which pulls them towards BGR_IA/EBA in comparison. The connection between Proto-Villanovan and Middle Danubian and G�va/Channelled Ware groups being also noted in the pottery.

[Angela]

All I see is more reason to distrust analyses using Eurogenes.

Corsica is represented by ONE sample, "collected", or rather "chosen" by a notorious Italian Nordicist, and that sample is not at all "typically" Corsican like, if there is such a thing, but rather resembles a French admixed Corsican.

That's why "Ligurian" fits, beyond the fact that coastal Corsicans, like Napoleone Buonaparte, have Ligurian (his mother) as well as Tuscan (his father) ancestry.

[Riverman]

All I see is more reason to distrust analyses using Eurogenes.

Corsica is represented by ONE sample, "collected", or rather "chosen" by a notorious Italian Nordicist, and that sample is not at all "typically" Corsican like, if there is such a thing, but rather resembles a French admixed Corsican.

That's why "Ligurian" fits, beyond the fact that coastal Corsicans, like Napoleone Buonaparte, have Ligurian (his mother) as well as Tuscan (his father) ancestry.

We are all happy about these tools and their immense potential and we all know that not all samples are perfect, some individuals being admixed. But do you know what, in a recent study samples of "British" being presented among which were people of Levantine origin, most likely Ashkenazi Jewish. So whatever you have to say about G25, many of the "scientific samples" are by no means better and the same applies to the commercial testing companies, if they miss regional differences and ethnic minorities, or obvious individual outliers in their reference samples. Its all work in progress, usually of people with good will, but nobody is perfect and having admixed samples is sometimes better than having none.
If there are "pure Corsican" samples around, a lot of people would be happy to get them into G25, including myself (I can't do it myself though )

[Pax Augusta]

All I see is more reason to distrust analyses using Eurogenes.

Corsica is represented by ONE sample, "collected", or rather "chosen" by a notorious Italian Nordicist, and that sample is not at all "typically" Corsican like, if there is such a thing, but rather resembles a French admixed Corsican.

That's why "Ligurian" fits, beyond the fact that coastal Corsicans, like Napoleone Buonaparte, have Ligurian (his mother) as well as Tuscan (his father) ancestry.

Eurogenes almost always uses academic samples (although he chooses which ones to use). The notorious Italian Nordicist has nothing to do with Eurogenes. It is the academic sample from Corsica (at least a dozen individuals) that is composed of some Corsicans that may be partly of French ancestry. While the Ligurian one is always an academic sample and is represented by one individual, unikely representative for the whole Liguria. It is the academic samples that are often not fully representative.

[Angela]

Eurogenes almost always uses academic samples (although he chooses which ones to use). The notorious Italian Nordicist have nothing to do with Eurogenes. It is the academic sample from Corsica (at least a dozen individuals) that is composed of some Corsicans that may be partly of French ancestry. While the Ligurian one is always an academic sample and is represented by one individual, unikely representative for the whole Liguria. It is the academic samples that are often not fully representative.

Well, that's news to me. I was specifically told by someone I consider reputable that the samples in the Vahaduo updated list for Dodecad K12b modern Italian populations were from his collection, and that indeed many different samples in that list were submitted by internet "amateurs". If any of those samples were submitted by him from among samples of his acquaintances and given that his main purpose in life seems to be turning Italians into Nordics, then they should be removed from any analyses.

As for the bolded comment I completely disagree. Cavalli Sforza's choice of where to gather samples has stood the test of time although given when they were selected they're not perfect. I realize you don't like the Tuscan samples and what they show; as to whether they're representative or not we'll have to agree to disagree.

If I have to choose between samples submitted by who knows what amateur on the web with who knows what hidden agenda and those chosen by an academician whose identity I at least know and who has a profession to lose I know which I'd choose. You choose whom you want.

Ed. I would be interested to know how it can be verified precisely which Corsican samples were averaged to get the coordinates on Vahaduo and whether they can be definitively shown to come from the paper(s) on Corsicans. My recollection of the latest paper does not at all support them being French admixed, but my recollection may be faulty.