The genetic origin of Daunians

[ihype02]

I've never yet heard from an Albanian who didn't think Dienekes was biased, and the reason is that they hate his analyses of Balkan genetics, particularly Greek and Albanian genetics.

Meanwhile, I, for have no stake in the matter, can't think of one major thing about which he was wrong, and I followed him from his first posts, and was part of his sample set.

Eurogenes, on the other hand, has been wrong so many times that as I've often said I could fill the phone book of a small city with his incorrect predictions. The only times he's right is when his buddy tells him about the contents of upcoming papers. Anyone interested can find his exchanges with me on this site and see for yourselves how he can't even read a paper properly and relate what it shows or doesn't show; he just jumps to his pre-determined conclusions.

As for "calculators", for people who haven't been around long enough, Dienekes "invented" them. Eurogenes is like a line engineer using someone else's algorithms and programs without, of course, acknowledging his debt.

That's not to mention that Eurogenes is an out and out racist propagandist convicted out of his own mouth and someone captured on discussions with his Russian buddy trying to figure out how to manipulate the sample selection to get the desired result. For crying out loud, on PCAs he used to routinely include close relatives of "his" samples.

OK, I remember something he was wrong about: some y dna predictions, like for Oetzi.

Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

Davidski does not have this type of "bias".

Can name something similar about Davidski?

I am not really a follower of pre-history genetics or where Davidski disagreed but I do know that Davidski has a very long lists what Dienekes has been wrong about.

Many eminent writers (including highly respected not just Davidski) in genetics don't take him seriously and he has a very bad reputation in internet. Davidski has only a bad reputation here.


Do you have any proof about Davidski and his Russian buddy? Some may like Dienekes because he stroke their ego.

[Angela]

Only recent Slavic or Germanic admixture can move them to that position. If they have recent Croatian or Slovenian admixture they can't be more considered fully Northern Italian.

Completely different thing is Germanic or Slavic medieval admixture.

Northern Italians have been living cheek by jowl with Croatians since the days of the Venetian Republic. How the heck do you know when the admixture happened?

My first cousin in law has a Slavic last name and his family has been in the Veneto since the Middle Ages. They were Venetian traders with long standing contacts with Dalmatia and Byzantium. Their "family" first names, one of which he gave to his unfortunate son, include names like Archimedi.

The point is that when you do a random "pick", as you HAVE to do for a scientific analysis, you're going to pick up people who might be a minority. When you have a LOT of samples from a certain area you can perhaps weed out the "outliers".

It is NOT something which one can do based on one's own results or a "hunch" as to what the people should look like, or one's preference.

For example, what is one to make of the comment above that posters at anthrogenica think the Peloponnesian samples are too "southern". Leaving aside the fact that so many of the amateur enthusiasts in this discipline are Nordicists even if they come from the southernmost parts of Europe, and are keen to make their "people" more "Northern", what is to be made of an observation like that? What SCIENTIFIC analysis is it based on?

Only when there are a LOT of randomly chosen samples from all parts of a designated area am I going to be persuaded by comments like that.

[Angela]

Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

Davidski does not have this type of "bias".

Can name something similar about Davidski?

I am not really a follower of pre-history genetics or where Davidski disagreed but I do know that Davidski has a very long lists what Dienekes has been wrong about.

Many eminent writers (including highly respected not just Davidski) in genetics don't take him seriously and he has a very bad reputation in internet. Davidski has only a bad reputation here.


Do you have any proof about Davidski and his Russian buddy? Some may like Dienekes because he stroke their ego.

Who gives a damn what people ignorant "of pre-history genetics" think of the issue? I certainly don't.

There ARE no eminent academicians, who are the only writers with whom you should be concerned, who have expressed an opinion on the matter.

I have proof Davidski is a racist, I have proof he deliberately discussed changing samples to get certain results, and I have listed elsewhere a dozen or more MAJOR mistakes he has made, the one closest to the only genetics issues that matter to you that Mycenaeans would turn out to be blonde, blue eyed people almost identical to Corded Ware. See, they teleported over all the area in between.

Go find them.

Also, do not expect any responses from me in the future; you are on permanent ignore.

[ihype02]

If Davidski said Mycenaeans will turn out to be blonde and almost identical to Corded Ware, than I guess he did not say it in his blog or maybe he deleted it. Because it's not there.

[Pax Augusta]

Northern Italians have been living cheek by jowl with Croatians since the days of the Venetian Republic. How the heck do you know when the admixture happened?

My first cousin in law has a Slavic last name and his family has been in the Veneto since the Middle Ages. They were Venetian traders with long standing contacts with Dalmatia and Byzantium. Their "family" first names, one of which he gave to his unfortunate son, include names like Archimedi.

They are very far from average Venetians, and they look very much like the Germanic or Slavic-speaking linguistic minorities of the Alps (Timau, Sappada, Cimbrians...).

If it's not recent admxiture, then they are most likely samples from the Germanic (or Slavic language) minorities of the northeastern Alps but labelled as generic northeastern Italians.

[Bekas]

Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, I will write this and go.

1) Dienekes is Lazaridis.

2) Pontic Greeks can be modelled as having quantifiable Mycenean ancestry as you can see in the following qpAdm run, probably not as much as Peloponnesian Greeks or others, but still significantly present:

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1748471664
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 8.256 tail: 0.690196169 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -8.256 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.186
China_Tianyuan 0.121
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.274
Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.384
Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.625
Turkey_N_published -1.707
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.057
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.586
Papuan.DG -0.202
Israel_Natufian_published -1.309
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.309
ONG.SG -0.187
A:
scale 1038.803
Greece_BA_Mycenaean -1.140
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.837


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 8.256 taildiff: 0.690196169
B:
scale 699.482 1187.508
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.573 0.520
China_Tianyuan 0.669 1.352
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.352 -0.093
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.810 1.670
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.170 1.708
Turkey_N_published 1.339 -1.530
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.569 1.102
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.703 0.716
Papuan.DG 0.433 0.210
Israel_Natufian_published 1.919 0.259
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.374 -0.080
ONG.SG 0.216 -0.038
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.423 0.577
totmean: 0.423 0.577
boot mean: 0.423 0.577
std. errors: 0.074 0.074

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
5485 -5485
-5485 5485


summ: ponticgreek 2 0.690196 0.423 0.577 5485 -5485 5485

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 8.256 0.690196 0.423 0.577
01 1 12 64.491 3.38531e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 12 41.455 4.11161e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.690196 - -
best pat: 10 4.11161e-05 chi(nested): 33.199 p-value for nested model: 8.31902e-09

coeffs: 0.423 0.577

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000819 1.293291
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000438 0.736654
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000599 Z: 1.046005

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000957 1.295930
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya China_Tianyuan 0.001138 1.644382
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.001061 Z: 1.577864

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000504 0.945933
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000078 -0.149355
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000168 Z: 0.339867

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001158 -2.212288
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001406 2.733275
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000321 Z: 0.654114

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001673 -2.444339
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.001438 2.156090
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: 0.000121 Z: 0.192713

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001915 3.752897
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_N_published -0.001289 -2.630766
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000067 Z: 0.144465

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000814 1.065108
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000928 1.258500
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000879 Z: 1.243516

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002434 -3.152052
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000603 0.776853
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000683 Z: -0.932843

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000619 1.161909
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Papuan.DG 0.000177 0.333508
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000364 Z: 0.728246

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.002744 2.426661
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Israel_Natufian_published 0.000218 0.210682
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.001288 Z: 1.265452

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000534 0.869551
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000067 -0.120423
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000187 Z: 0.340491

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000308 0.572255
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG -0.000032 -0.061478
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000112 Z: 0.223804

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.046
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 1.578
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.340
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.654
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.193
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 0.144
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.244
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.933
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.728
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 1.265
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.340
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.224
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 0.658
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.594
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.476
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.655
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.928
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.364
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.625
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.384
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.655
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.651
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.865
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.140
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.113
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.194
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.561
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.227
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.057
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.088
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.209
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.351
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.535
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.235
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.064
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -0.165
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.894
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.012
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.297
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.011
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.028
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.088
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.338
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.536
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.823
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.433
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.083
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.960
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.241
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.398
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.088
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.921
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.052
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.355
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.058
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.095
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.014
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.193
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.062
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 0.587
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.238
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.223
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 0.089
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.776
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.762
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.360
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.983
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -1.117
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 1.431
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.722
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.149
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 1.123
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.886
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.353
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.533
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.080
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -1.155
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.157

##end of qpAdm: 1.892 seconds cpu 0.725 Mbytes in use

42.3% Mycenean (+- 7.4%) and 57.7% Maikop_Novosvobodnaya (+- 7.4%).

[ihype02]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, I will write this and go.

1) Dienekes is Lazaridis.

2) Pontic Greeks can be modelled as having quantifiable Mycenean ancestry as you can see in the following qpAdm run, probably not as much as Peloponnesian Greeks or others, but still significantly present:




42.3% Mycenean (+- 7.4%) and 57.7% Maikop_Novosvobodnaya (+- 7.4%).

Dienekes is not Lazaridis. And you are using a 3000 BC old sample from Russia to model the native ancestry of Pontic Greeks.
You can model Modern Lazes and Armenians as 35% Greek with that.
Pontic Greeks can be modelled as 85% modern Laz and 15% Ionic-like.

[ihype02]

Since Pax Augusta mentioned it is true that David only uses academic samples.

[Bekas]

Dienekes is not Lazaridis. (WTH?) And you are using a 3000 BC old sample from Russia to model the native ancestry of Pontic Greeks.
You can model Modern Lazes and Armenians as 35% Greek with that.
Pontic Greeks can be modelled as 85% modern Laz and 15% Ionic-like.

No, sorry, you can see Armenians fail the exact same run (see prob. tail), as qpAdm is very sensitive and is not like your blogger smartPCA "eurogenes calculator" where you mish-mash whatever you want and you get a little bit of everything as a result.

Laz speakers also have ancestry from Maikop, and have mixed with Greeks, as it can be seen with loans from the Greek language in their own language's grammatical structure, but your numbers have no basis on anything, you just pull them out from thin air.

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1852968968
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Armenian.DG
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 71.233 tail: 7.11630577e-11 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -71.233 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.155
China_Tianyuan 0.136
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.333
Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.279
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.621
Turkey_N_published 1.689
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.065
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.480
Papuan.DG 0.186
Israel_Natufian_published 1.541
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.299
ONG.SG 0.187
A:
scale 928.687
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.296
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.567


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 71.233 taildiff: 7.11630577e-11
B:
scale 599.618 885.424
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.134 -0.208
China_Tianyuan 0.521 0.690
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.260 -0.087
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.301 1.826
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.821 1.557
Turkey_N_published 2.077 0.238
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.411 0.649
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.558 1.932
Papuan.DG 0.145 -0.306
Israel_Natufian_published 2.420 1.102
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.451 0.008
ONG.SG -0.020 -0.441
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.304 0.696
totmean: 0.304 0.696
boot mean: 0.303 0.697
std. errors: 0.062 0.062

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
3887 -3887
-3887 3887


summ: Armenian.DG 2 0.000000 0.303 0.697 3887 -3887 3887

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 11 71.233 7.11631e-11 0.304 0.696
01 1 12 220.782 0 1.000 0.000
10 1 12 105.314 5.03423e-17 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 7.11631e-11 - -
best pat: 10 5.03423e-17 chi(nested): 34.080 p-value for nested model: 5.28806e-09

coeffs: 0.304 0.696

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000224 0.506334
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000235 -0.573040
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000095 Z: -0.258881

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000869 1.809266
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya China_Tianyuan 0.000780 1.891160
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000807 Z: 2.153321

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000434 1.266355
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000098 -0.313555
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000064 Z: 0.233394

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000502 -1.411854
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.002063 6.318214
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.001282 Z: 4.338469

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001369 -2.928761
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.001758 3.867247
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: 0.000807 Z: 2.026901

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.003464 9.738560
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_N_published 0.000268 0.837026
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.001241 Z: 4.319962

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000686 1.346397
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000733 1.551759
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000719 Z: 1.692131

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000931 -1.844101
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.002182 4.522860
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.001235 Z: 2.908198

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000241 0.632554
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Papuan.DG -0.000346 -1.045093
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000167 Z: -0.551150

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.004036 6.029144
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Israel_Natufian_published 0.001244 2.284058
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.002094 Z: 4.389409

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000752 1.862131
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000010 0.026313
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000235 Z: 0.716612

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG -0.000034 -0.092594
details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG -0.000498 -1.455873
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000357 Z: -1.173774

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.259
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 2.153
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.233
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 4.338
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.027
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 4.320
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.692
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.908
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.551
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.389
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.717
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.174
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 2.150
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.360
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 3.882
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.062
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 3.854
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.847
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.855
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.204
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.237
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.879
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.727
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.658
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.250
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 1.157
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.189
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.871
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -2.686
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 2.431
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.524
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -3.078
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 3.136
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.600
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 3.197
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.328
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.356
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.583
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 3.800
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.423
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.062
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.310
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.152
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.461
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.120
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -4.702
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 1.691
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.310
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -5.453
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 1.134
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.183
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.970
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -2.337
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.374
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.383
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -2.897
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.290
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.014
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -4.577
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.960
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.078
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -5.154
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.063
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -2.160
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.622
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.123
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -2.694
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -3.331
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.561
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -2.319
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -3.687
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.752
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.320
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.633
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.753
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -5.202
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.947

##end of qpAdm: 1.786 seconds cpu 0.782 Mbytes in use

[ihype02]

No, sorry, you can see Armenians fail the exact same run (see prob. tail), as qpAdm is very sensitive and is not like your blogger smartPCA "eurogenes calculator" where you mish-mash whatever you want and you get a little bit of everything as a result.

Laz speakers also have ancestry from Maikop, and have mixed with Greeks, as it can be seen with loans from the Greek language in their own language's grammatical structure, but your numbers have no basis on anything, you just pull them out from thin air.

You are using a sample that pre-dates the Pyramid of Giza by 500 to 700 yeas and it's even from a different location. The Mycenaean genetic profile did not even exist in 3000BC. Pontic Greeks are very close to Laz with a Western pull.

Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek.
Wait until we find out how natives of Pontus were like in the Iron Age.

Target: Greek_Trabzon Distance: 2.3295% / 0.02329537
62.8	RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
37.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

---

Target: Georgian_Laz Distance: 2.0513% / 0.02051298
74.8	RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
25.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

[Bekas]

I post qpAdm pass run, you post your ringleader's "coordinates" and closed project "calculator" results. IDC if you believe me or not, not my problem.

Maikop is perfectly fine to model native, non Steppe, Caucasus ancestry for that period and within range for Minoan and Mycenean sample age, same for Kura-Araxes that show similar ranges but I don't post this because you will pull some excuse for that sampling also. The bottom line is Pontic Greeks pass qpAdm runs with Mycenean reference samples, they also speak a very archaic version of Ionic Greek, and that seems to annoy Albanians and other Balkan people for some reason, but, like I said, not my problem.

You posted un-based claims, I corrected it for the other people to see.

[Dorian9]

You are using a sample that pre-dates the Pyramid of Giza by 500 to 700 yeas and it's even from a different location. The Mycenaean genetic profile did not even exist in 3000BC. Pontic Greeks are very close to Laz with a Western pull.

Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek.
Wait until we find out how natives of Pontus were like in the Iron Age.

Can you give a good reason on why one should compare Pontic Greeks with Laz?like from a linguistic or historical point of view?other than just repeating sikeliot or turkish anthroboarder type stuff? (I understood btw that we two had a discussion over the same subject them in another forum ) ,can you give an era by era synopsis of how these populations were created ..for sure?

Also how about suggesting the Bekas guy some better models for him to try If his doesn't cut it?

You've said in our previous discussion that you have no agenda but something seems to bother you about certain anthrofora Jewish members(as I remembered from the discussion in the other forum) Dienekes and their theories..

[ihype02]

I post qpAdm pass run, you post your ringleader's "coordinates" and closed project "calculator" results. IDC if you believe me or not, not my problem.

Maikop is perfectly fine to model native, non Steppe, Caucasus ancestry for that period and within range for Minoan and Mycenean sample age, same for Kura-Araxes that show similar ranges but I don't post this because you will pull some excuse for that sampling also. The bottom line is Pontic Greeks pass qpAdm runs with Mycenean reference samples, they also speak a very archaic version of Ionic Greek, and that seems to annoy Albanians and other Balkan people for some reason, but, like I said, not my problem.

You posted un-based claims, I corrected it for the other people to see.

The point is that the source that you are using is highly unlikely to be fully representative of natives in Pontus because of the date 3000BC-3200BC and the location. The inhabitants of Serbia were French-like during those times if I remember well.

I think you are tricking yourself. The sample you used is not 100% impossible to be exactly the same as the natives of Pontus but it's highly unlikely.
Wait until something by 800BC is released to see how they plot.

Also Romans settled colonists in Pontus too and Central Anatolians were more Western Shifted, Cypriot-like. Not the entire Western shift was caused by Ionians, but most of it yes.

I have tested G25 calculator with several different academic paper, including the Imperial Rome 2019 study. The percentages were the same with the studies, so I am satisfied with it.

[ihype02]

Can you give a good reason on why one should compare Pontic Greeks with Laz?like from a linguistic or historical point of view?other than just repeating sikeliot or turkish anthroboarder type stuff? (I understood btw that we two had a discussion over the same subject them in another forum ) ,can you give an era by era synopsis of how these populations were created ..for sure?Also how about suggesting the Bekas guy some better models for him to try If his doesn't cut it?You've said in our previous discussion that you have no agenda but something seems to bother you about certain anthrofora Jewish members(as I remembered from the discussion in the other forum) Dienekes and their theories..

I only mentioned Dienekes because of comparison with Davidski I have only searched "Albanians" once in his blog and found out about this. He is inactive I could care less about him. He gets tolerated for his biases but Davidski gets not. I have no problems with Jewish people.

I am sure most of what I have said will be proven. Wanna bet on that?

[Dorian9]

I am sure most of what I have said will be proven. Wanna bet on that?

If your bet is that Pontic Greeks are a straight 85% post-Roman(?) era "Lazes" + 15% Mycenaean-like Pontic Ionian "survivors" ,I'm in for a bet since I believe the picture must be more complicated.

I have no opinion on the haplogroups origins ,I just mentioned Dienekes just to show that you have your own biases.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is right to some unknown extent though since there are gaps about Albanian ethnogenesis.

[Bekas]

Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying, eurogenes says Pontics are Laz and Armenians, so it must be true,

you should inform the Cambridge seat of Linguistics, also, so they don't waste their time using the Pontic dialects spoken today in Greece and Turkey to reconstruct Homeric Greek and their Hellenistic Alexandrian evolutions. Just tell them eurogenes told you Pontics are hodge-podge of Lazic tribesmen, G25 is definitely the proof.




Also, here's a qpAdm pass run that uses modern Georgian for a proxy of the native Caucasus reference. You can see the spread is similar (36.4% Mycenean and the rest Georgian) with a slightly higher standard error (+-1% to the Maikop run).

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1842531111
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Georgian.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 14 chisq: 16.368 tail: 0.29142047 dofdiff: 16 chisqdiff: -16.368 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.205
China_Tianyuan 0.393
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.220
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.404
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.224
Turkey_N_published 1.854
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.270
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.109
Papuan.DG 0.167
Israel_Natufian_published 2.402
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.180
ONG.SG 0.046
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.035
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.478
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.583
A:
scale 1022.823
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.227
Georgian.DG -0.703


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: 16.368 taildiff: 0.29142047
B:
scale 690.828 1253.964
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.669 0.771
China_Tianyuan 0.711 0.277
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.387 0.294
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.721 -0.510
Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.122 0.938
Turkey_N_published 1.255 -2.192
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.636 0.485
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.701 -0.511
Papuan.DG 0.552 0.558
Israel_Natufian_published 1.949 -2.126
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.468 0.369
ONG.SG 0.272 0.358
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.140 -0.385
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.147 -1.451
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.231 0.671
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Georgian.DG 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.364 0.636
totmean: 0.364 0.636
boot mean: 0.364 0.636
std. errors: 0.084 0.084

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
7128 -7128
-7128 7128


summ: ponticgreek 2 0.291420 0.364 0.636 7128 -7128 7128

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 14 16.368 0.29142 0.364 0.636
01 1 15 68.453 8.41149e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 15 36.297 0.00160138 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.29142 - -
best pat: 10 0.00160138 chi(nested): 19.929 p-value for nested model: 8.03689e-06

coeffs: 0.364 0.636

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000968 1.500599
details: Georgian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000615 1.037938
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000744 Z: 1.291133

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.001029 1.388763
details: Georgian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.000221 0.323451
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000515 Z: 0.775092

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000560 1.028332
details: Georgian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000234 0.458293
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000353 Z: 0.713968

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001044 -1.959258
details: Georgian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000407 -0.803248
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.000639 Z: -1.306387

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001624 -2.345083
details: Georgian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000748 1.098959
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000115 Z: -0.178684

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001816 3.505022
details: Georgian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.001748 -3.634914
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000451 Z: -0.973117

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000921 1.190378
details: Georgian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000387 0.528206
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000581 Z: 0.823044

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002463 -3.148780
details: Georgian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000408 -0.547423
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001156 Z: -1.610472

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000799 1.483914
details: Georgian.DG Papuan.DG 0.000445 0.892347
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000574 Z: 1.195057

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.002822 2.430457
details: Georgian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.001695 -1.615367
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000051 Z: -0.048641

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000677 1.083105
details: Georgian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000294 0.514300
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000434 Z: 0.780294

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000394 0.718878
details: Georgian.DG ONG.SG 0.000285 0.537356
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000325 Z: 0.641246

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000202 -0.303448
details: Georgian.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000307 -0.505379
dscore: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya f4: -0.000269 Z: -0.449641

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001660 2.894377
details: Georgian.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001157 -2.137240
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000132 Z: -0.251263

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001781 1.718469
details: Georgian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000535 0.547037
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000989 Z: 1.036162

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.291
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.714
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.306
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.179
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.973
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.823
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.610
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.195
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.049
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.780
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.641
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.450
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.251
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.036
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.320
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.539
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.330
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.148
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -2.024
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.206
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.432
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.273
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.733
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.471
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.715
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.472
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.358
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.245
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.218
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.761
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.808
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.523
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.084
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.973
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.093
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.515
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.125
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.306
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.047
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.953
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.458
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.566
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.643
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.323
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.295
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.798
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.346
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.360
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.122
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.044
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.855
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.730
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.637
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.876
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.398
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.809
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.752
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 2.406
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.572
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.892
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 1.824
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.635
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.982
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.704
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.541
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.851
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.351
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.020
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.057
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.793
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.650
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.216
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.026
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.124
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.524
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.011
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.982
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.397
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.572
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 1.497
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.330
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.734
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.608
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.939
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.011
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.550
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.207
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.373
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.104
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.016
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.402
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 2.398
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.946
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.064
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.103
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.120
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.399
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.977
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.587
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.270
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.529
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.325
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.294
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.420
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.461
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.360
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.199
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.077
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.787
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.221
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.041
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.985
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.552
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.940
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.827
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.669
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.236
gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.293
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.232

##end of qpAdm: 2.474 seconds cpu 0.877 Mbytes in use

So, I am sorry it hurts your feelings but Pontic Greeks have quantifiable ancestry related to the Mycenean samples.

[ihype02]

If your bet is that Pontic Greeks are a straight 85% post-Roman(?) era "Lazes" + 15% Mycenaean-like Pontic Ionian "survivors" ,I'm in for a bet since I believe the picture must be more complicated.

I have no opinion on the haplogroups origins ,I just mentioned Dienekes just to show that you have your own biases.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is right to some unknown extent though since there are gaps about Albanian ethnogenesis.

No where did I mention that Pontic Greeks are straight up 15% Ionian and 85% Laz. But do I think it is closer to 15% than to 43%? Yes.
I was simply correcting the method that your buddy used. I have never seen anyone here or on Anthrogenica use qpAdm.
He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.

[Carnimirie]

Is there going to be a comprehensive study on Sicily/Calabria any time soon? Not sure how anyone can draw conclusions on Southern Italian genetics without these two regions.

[Pax Augusta]

Is there going to be a comprehensive study on Sicily/Calabria any time soon? Not sure how anyone can draw conclusions on Southern Italian genetics without these two regions.

At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.


Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.

[Dorian9]

No where did I mention that Pontic Greeks are straight up 15% Ionian and 85% Laz. But do I think it is closer to 15% than to 43%? Yes.
I was simply correcting the method that your buddy used. I have never seen anyone here or on Anthrogenica use qpAdm.
He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.

You said "Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek." If that's not what you say ,I don't get why Laz should be used as a proxy? I believe even Georgian pops might not be good proxy because of possible more eastern admixture ,be it through the Greek Caucasus colonies or Roman ones ,hence the need for ancient models for Pontians.

Can you provide a good reason why the less Greek the model is the more realistic it must be?If not ,I take it as you following the herd. I'm willing to bet that not only the Ionic part is close to half but the continuity of Trapezudians with their Sinopian ancestors (the colonizers of Trapezuda) ,and Milesians(colonizers of Sinope) is even greater due to gradual accumulation of local admixtures and that the similarity with Laz is coincidental due to the latter having Greek or Roman admixture and due to them starting as Colchians who assimilated more westward black sea tribes that the Greek population also could have assimilated (see Sanni)..but that's just me ,remains to be seen (If it ever does and we're not wasting our times).

[ihype02]

You said "Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek." If that's not what you say ,I don't get why Laz should be used as a proxy? I believe even Georgian pops might not be good proxy because of possible more eastern admixture ,be it through the Greek Caucasus colonies or Roman ones ,hence the need for ancient models for Pontians.

Can you provide a good reason why the less Greek the model is the more realistic it must be?If not ,I take it as you following the herd. I'm willing to bet that not only the Ionic part is close to half but the continuity of Trapezudians with their Sinopian ancestors (the colonizers of Trapezuda) ,and Milesians(colonizers of Sinope) is even greater due to gradual accumulation of local admixtures and that the similarity with Laz is coincidental due to the latter having Greek or Roman admixture and due to them starting as Colchians who assimilated more westward black sea tribes that the Greek population also could have assimilated (see Sanni)..but that's just me ,remains to be seen (If it ever does and we're not wasting our times).

Treizbond was a Laz kingdom. The natives were Laz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Trebizond

Keep in mind that in general Anatolia has become more Eastern shifted not just because of Turkic impact that is including Christians. So maybe the natives of Pontus could've been more western shifted than modern Pontic Greeks that is not to say that modern Pontians have absolutely no Ancient Greek ancestry (I am sure they do). But PCA can get interpreted in many different ways, what pulls them west and what pulls them east.

Southern Italians are closer to Ancient Greeks than Cretans but that does not mean they have more Ancient Greek ancestry than Cretans.

[Carnimirie]

Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle

[Dorian9]

Treizbond was a Laz kingdom. The natives were Laz.


Keep in mind that in general Anatolia has become more Eastern shifted not just because of Turkic impact that is including Christians. So maybe the natives of Pontus could've been more western shifted than modern Pontic Greeks that is not to say that modern Pontians have absolutely no Ancient Greek ancestry (I am sure they do). But PCA can get interpreted in many different ways, what pulls them west and what pulls them east.

Southern Italians are closer to Ancient Greeks than Cretans but that does not mean they have more Ancient Greek ancestry than Cretans.

The geographical boundaries of Lazika, according to historians, are the river Fassis to the northeast, but there is disagreement about its western boundaries, since Xenophon extends them to Trabzon and Arrianos to Ofi.
The racial difference is a given, since the Pontians are settlers from Ionia and in fact come from Miletus which, according to the testimonies of Herodotus, Xenophon and Strabo, colonized the shores of the Black Sea, while the Laz, according to one version, attract their origin from Asia and coming from there settled in Lazika. Xenophon also refers to the Laz, emphasizing that during the descent of his myriads he was unprovokedly attacked by them, while the Greeks of Trebizond "of this most Greek city" warmly welcomed him. Throughout their history, the Laz have been distinguished for their predatory character.
The confusion between the Greeks of the historical Pontus and the Lazes can be determined chronologically starting from the Byzantine years. Specifically, we have a reference to the name Laziki in 380 AD when Theodosius the Great awarded for the first time the title of "Lord of Colchis and Lazika", while Procopius writes that in the years of Justinian "Lazes at first inhabited Colchis". It is obvious that at that time the Lazes lived east of today's Lazika, and only during the Ottoman period did they enter Rizounta, bled and de-Hellenized the 105 villages of the Greek region and spread eastwards of Ofes.
The Laz converted to Christianity in the 6th century, during the reign of Emperor Justinian, when their king Tzathios went to Constantinople. From that moment on, their conscious or unconscious identification with the Pontians began, after special importance was attached at the ecclesiastical level to their religious identification with the Greeks and at the level of defense in their ability to be a barrier to the Persian expansionist tendencies towards Trebizond. The result of this confusion is the reference of the Byzantine chroniclers, after giving in 1204 the nickname "lords of the Lazes" to the Komnenians of Trabzon with , a fact that certifies their ignorance.


The first bishops of Lazika are mentioned from 680 AD and participated in the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Until the 13th century Lazika was a separate Diocese, but after the founding of the empire of Trebizond it passed to the Archbishop of Trebizond who retains the title of "Priced and Exarchist of all Lazika". In recent years the name of the Laz includes the tribes that live west of Colchis in the river Ofi, with the result that the Ottoman Empire identifies the administration of Riza as the Administration of Laz.


With the overthrow of the Greek Empire and the rule of the Ottomans, Sultan Mehmet IV imposed violent Islamization during the period when Mehmet and Ahmet Kioproulou were the Grand Viziers, with most of the Laz converting to Islam hence now they are being differentiated by religion also.
Until the Russo-Ottoman War of 1878, Lazistan was an autonomous administration based in Batumi. In 1878, after the occupation of Batumi by the Russians, the capital of Lazistan was moved to Rizuda.


After the Kemalist coup, Lazistan became a prefecture and the use of its name was banned by the Turkish authorities, because it was considered that this gave rise to the recognition of ethnic groups such as the Laz outside the borders of Turkish territory.


The younger researchers, namely D. I Economides, in his book The Pontus and the Laws of Hellenism in It, compare the language of the Laz with that of the Georgians and discover related elements by including it in the Iberian language family.


However, the research shows in an absolute way that there is no relationship between the Laz and the Pontians, since they have their own language, their own customs and traditions. Moreover, throughout their historical course, they defended their ethno-local identity, persecuting Hellenism in the logic of multifaceted competition. In fact, at the end of the 20th century, they were the most terrible pirates of the eastern part of the Black Sea.


It is therefore necessary today to stop the identification of the Pontians with the Laz. In fact, the reasons for the often repeated use of the homogenization of the two diametrically opposed ethnicities are sought by Pontian scholars with insidious actions. According to the assessments of some representatives of refugee associations, which, as far as I know, have not been scientifically researched, the identification was invented by Bulgarian historians in order to devalue the settlement of the Pontians in Macedonia. According to a second version, the identification aims at the discrediting of the Pontians themselves, since it is perpetuated by non-historians, who give the Pontian tribe the resin of the uncivilized.

[Palermo Trapani]

At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.


Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.

Pax Augusta: Fascinating study by Valentina et al from the University of Florence. While all of the studies findings are of interest to me, the one I find most interesting are the ones that indicate Iron Age Sicilian samples (800BC to 400BC) overlap the genetic variability found during Bronze Age Sicily. I assume they are referring to the Bronze Age samples from Sicily in Fernandes et al 2020 and also the Sicilian Bell Beaker from Olade et al 2018 (I4930), although I guess one could be dogmatic and say the Sicilian Bell Beaker culture was more Copper age.

[Archetype0ne]

Some members seem to be stuck on the pre 2010 stereotype of proto-/Albanians as irrelevant bystanders in the genetics of the region.

I have no idea if Dienekes is Lazaridis, since from the research I did there is circumstantial evidence. But if he is, Lazaridis seems very impartial once confronted by evidence. His Minoan and Mycenean study is living proof. As for Dienekes I was trying to figure out what he claimed about Albanians since you guys mentioned it 3-4 times, as if he dissed or something, but I saw nothing of the kind on his blog.

Davidski might be stubborn, but at least you know once he deletes one of the blogs, he accepted the fact that his hypothesis got rejected. As was the case with L283 coming via sea route from the Caucasus. On the other hand I have no idea why you guys hate him so much? Is this some long feud you have been having or what? If anything I find it amusing how he challenges the crown jewels of genetics. Certainly not advisable I would say. But amusing nonetheless.

But yeah someone with info, Angela? Bekas? What did Dienekes say that would make Albanians not like him?
Since you are solely arguing with ihype2, try not to project all Albanians into the positions he is holding.